Plame outing poll

[Recursion]

Poll question: Plame outing poll

What was the main reason Plame's identity was revealed?

[Dogmudgeon]

1. Like most of Team Bush's plays ...

... stupidity upon stupidity.

They wanted to get back at Joe Wilson. So they exposed half their African operations in one fell swoop, and probably put dozens of field agents aside from Valerie Plame at severe risk.

I've been critical of the CIA in my time, but I have to think there's a special level of Hell for idiots who cause spies to be tortured and killed for no damn good reason other than political pique.

--p!

[Peace Patriot]

2. Covering up something worse. I favor the WMD-planting theory of

Traitorgate: The plan was two-track, 1) to get the "crude" Niger forgeries into Bush's SOTU, so as to draw the CIA into an open "no nukes in Iraq" position; then, 2) to discredit the CIA when the planted nukes in Iraq were "found," with the additional obvious benefit of cementing Bush/Blair's political position ("justification" for the war). But part two was foiled. Possible foilers: someone in the Brewster-Jennings counter-proliferation network, or David Kelly, the Brits chief WMD expert who was found dead, under highly suspicious circumstances, four days after Plame was outed; his office and computers were searched; four days later, the entire BJ network was outed (also by Novak), putting all our covert agents/contacts at risk of getting killed (and probably intending to get certain ones killed), and disabling all projects.

It's not that Rove/Bushites are not capable of the filthiest, most traitorous politics imaginable; they are; and those "talents" were used (that's how Libby and Rove got into a scuffle--Libby tried to pin it on Rove, who was a willing player but not the mastermind.) (My candidate for mastermind: Rumsfeld--with Cheney also playing a subcommander role.) So, in this theory, the Rovian revenge story is a cover story. Very believable. But not the whole truth, by any means.

It's a pretty good theory. It holds up well under scrutiny. The coincidence of Plame/Kelly dates is truly haunting. There must be a connection. (And there is, actually, via Judith Miller, an old friend of Kelly's, to whom he wrote his last email, in which he was concerned about "the many dark actors playing games." He had hours to live.) (This theory posits that Kelly found out about the Bushite plot to plant nukes in Iraq, and was killed because of what he knew. He was already whistleblowing to the BBC about the 'sexed up' prewar Iraq intel, and got into deep trouble with his intelligence bosses, who interrogated him at a "safe house," a short time before his death--the same week that Wilson's article was coming out.)

Three other possibilities as motive for the cloaked part of Traitorgate: dirty Cheney (or other Bushite) arms dealings around the world; the 9/11 money trail; and/or, their intention to invade Iran. It has recently been disclosed that Plame/BJ were working on counter-proliferation in Iran. The junta had to kill honest counter-proliferation projects, in order to have their excuse for another invasion/bombing of another Middle Eastern people sitting on pools of oil.

[Bucky]

7. That's unbelieveable. Really. Look up Occam's razor

to get the "crude" Niger forgeries into Bush's SOTU, so as to draw the CIA into an open "no nukes in Iraq" position;

You're arguing that people in the White House deliberately put a lie in the biggest speech of the year hoping that they would be caught in that lie and then counting on the blame being put on someone besides them. That's a pretty extreme form of cutting your nose to spite your face. And then, by this hyposthesis, in order to discredit the Brewster-Jennings network, they knowingly exposed themselves to legal prosecution by outing Ms Plame from the White House.

You're arguing that they were so foresighted in planning out this double bank-shot power play to trump the CIA, but couldn't figure out that it would destroy their own credibility and undermine support for the war? You're arguing that they had so many trustworthy assets in the field that they could sneak nukes into Iraq, but they couldn't find a way to expose an undercover CIA operative except by dropping a phone call to Bob Novak?

These people are reckless risk-takers with petty delusions of grandeur. They screw up constantly and mistrust everybody. They simply lack the requisite skills for pulling off a grand-theory conspiracy like you're arguing for. The simpler explanation is that they fuck up all the time because they're trying to rob the country and grease down their fatcat contributors. They're sneaky, but they're too paranoid to pull off the type of operation it would require to plant nukes in Iraq. And they're too vain to knowingly plant falsehoods in the State of the Union address hoping that it would be exposed as a lie and then have themselves get magically exhonerated for the snafu.

Your hypothesis just doesn't track.

[Recursion]

3. Threat to CIA

Maybe I'm naive, but it wouldn't surprise me if Shrubco had 0 idea that Valerie was in charge of Iran nonproliferation. I think they just hate the CIA and wanted them to start toeing the line. But then again I'm probably not giving their malevolence enough credit.

[Ready4Change]

4. Silence Wilson and warn CIA.

I don't think they were looking far enough ahead to think about Iran yet.

[misternormal]

5. Revenge, plain and simple... n/t

[Bucky]

6. Hate to vote with the majority here, but "poorly thought thru" is their MO

Is there anything where this bunch does not act vindictively and rashly?

[Peace Patriot]

8. Well, there are different players here. Bush Jr. seems not too bright.

I doubt he would be privy to the cloak and dagger details. But Rumsfeld IS bright--in a malevolent way. So is Cheney, and some others. The evidence of PNAC shows that this cabal had long planned to invade Iraq, Iran and other mideast oil fields. And they are playing it out exactly that way. What was the news a week before "immigration" was the news? Iran, Iran, Iran. What did Scooter Libby tell Judith Miller to "come back to life--and work" FOR? To cover the *IRAN* WMD story!

It is obvious, on the known facts, that they deliberately put a KNOWN LIE into Bush's SOTU speech--re: the "crude" Niger forgeries. Even Colin Powell balked (who told a 100% pack of lies to the UN). It was a KNOWN, PROVABLE lie--that they went to extra trouble to re-insert in the speech, after it had been taken out!

And why were these such easily detectable forgeries--laughably detectable? Why didn't they create GOOD forgeries--or at least get the dates and names right? The forgeries were a joke. And SOMEBODY wanted VERY BADLY for these to be referenced in the speech. Why? They were the very item that got Wilson so incensed. He KNEW the Niger/Iraq connection was a lie; he couldn't understand why they would put such an obvious, PROVABLE lie in the speech.

Also, the gist of the WMD-planting theory of Traitorgate is that they FAILED. They got foiled by somebody. So THAT fits the beliefs of some of the commenters in this thread, that they are just arrogant, thieving bumblers. I think you have to sort out who's arrogant, and to what degree, who's thieving and who has other motives, and who's a bumbler and who isn't a bumbler. It's not a uniform picture. The bumbling by Bush, for instance, creates a context in which some clever operators can commit massive theft, or run out long term schemes of becoming Masters of the Universe.

I think there are malevolent masterminds at work, as well as "Marx Brothers" incompetents--and, to some degree, the former are using the latter for cover. By "masterminds," I don't mean that they can't fail. And their "masterminding" may well be full of self-delusion. But, when you track this thing (Traitorgate) back, you find it going back all the way to 2001, and the Rome meeting of Bushite Neo-Cons, Italian government fascists and notorious Iranian arms dealer Manucher Ghorbanifar, where the "crude" Niger forgeries were more than likely cooked up. Why would they cook up POOR forgeries? And why did they need a notorious illicit arms dealer--an Iran/Contra "mastermind"--to create laughably crude forgeries?

You need to try to look at this from the INSIDE--not from the newstream OUTSIDE, nor from the political foreground. What was going on that prompted what appears to me to be a panicky, rushed outing of Plame and the entire Brewster-Jennings counter-proliferation network--a highly risky method of political "punishment," involving many top Bushites and contacts with at least six reporters (journalist witnesses to treason), in one week? An op-ed piece by a dissenting ex-diplomat? Why didn't they just ignore it? It would have slipped into the war profiteering corporate news monopoly lost memory column. Or, if they hated Wilson so much, why didn't they just destroy his credit rating? They were spying on everybody, and surely, as a result, had illicit access to MANY methods of destruction. It seems pretty obvious to me that Plame-BJ was the TARGET, not the collateral damage, and how convenient it must have been to put Rove, notorious for his dirty tricks, out front, in a very believable narrative of political revenge! (There is evidence that Rove and Libby got into a scuffle about this--about Rove ending up holding the bag.)

Anyway, this kind of thinking--trying to think oneself behind the curtain, behind the highly manipulated newsstream--is what led to the WMD-planting theory of Traitorgate; that, and the resonant coincidence of dates with the outing and death of David Kelly, in the same week, and the coincidence of themes (extreme and fearful reactions by two closely allied governments in response to SOMETHING, but are we sure WHAT?) It's a pretty good theory, all in all--and has held up well with new developments. It may not be what happened, or may not be exactly what happened, but it's a good working hypothesis for investigation.

This poll posits a "they." But I think we have to sort out who "they" are, and what the motives behind various methods of powermonger may be. Rumsfeld and the looting of Baghdad is a good example. Was that incompetence? Or quite convenient chaos and destruction of civil society? End result: the construction of huge, permanent US military bases in Iraq--a fortress from which to launch further attacks in the Middle East, while the Iraqis who could interfere with with those goals kill each other off. We're still there, with no end in sight. Is that bumbling?

We're still there--and NOW we're there MINUS an honest, committed US counter-proliferation capability. Is that "Marx Brothers" incompetence? Or is that the work of a mastermind, or masterminds? My pick for chief mastermind of both Traitorgate AND the PNAC agenda is Rumsfeld. Of all of them, he is the one I fear the most. I think he is the smartest, most Nazi-like, and most devious of the lot. I think Cheney is chiefly just one of the looters. (His zillions in Halliburton stock is his chief consideration--and was during Katrina as well. Guess who got the first no-bid contract in New Orleans? Another example of APPARENT bumbling and incompetence.) And guess who's going to be left standing, after Fitzgerald is finished with his grand jury investigations? My guess, Cheney will retire. And Rumsfeld will still be in charge of the most secretive, most Nazified military/intelligence cabal the world has ever seen, with all power drawn into his hands. Getting rid of Plame/Brewster-Jennings, and the "white hat" CIA, was a step along the way. Not a political mistake (in my opinion, and according to this theory). Rather, a long-planned treasonous crime, in conjunction with the creation of the Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon, to take control of all US intelligence, and to purge all intelligence and military professionals who thought it was their job to prevent war, not to manufacture it.

Rumsfeld is temporarily curtailed on Iran--more by the rest of the world, than by the near-powerless American people (rendered helpless by Bushite corporate control of the new electronic voting machines). But he is STILL in Iraq--for all the Bushites' loss of political cache back home. In Iraq in full force. Permanently ensconced. Oblivious to, and caring not a whit about, the chaos in Iraqi society--nor about the US cannon fodder he is throwing at that "problem." Poised, waiting, like a jackal; scheming for another manufactured war. And you can't tell me that Traitorgate--the destruction of our counter-proliferation network--was just some bumbling political incident that conveniently, and accidentally, removed our eyes and ears on Iran nukes, and on all illicit and covert weapons movement, and other illicit covert activities in the Middle East (such as the black ops bombings going on in Iran right now), and around the world.

Look deeper, is all I'm saying. And do not be afraid. As Gandhi said, the truth and the good always win in the end. There are a lot of good people in this country, inside of and outside of the establishment. It may not be easy, but we WILL get our country back. We may have a neo-Nazi in the Pentagon, but we are NOT a Nazi-like people, and no one--and I mean no one--can make us into one.

[tibbir]

9. Poorly thought out malevolence.