Musings of a middle-class poor person

[EvolveOrConvolve]

Failure
The government has failed me. On all levels, the government has made it more difficult for me to live my life. The two political parties have failed me. Until about 5 years ago, I was a Republican, but made the decision to switch to independent voter status. Then after 2004, I officially became a Democrat. I rue that decision, including the time, money, and effort I put into supporting the Democratic party. Don't get me wrong - after the debacle of the Bush years, it will be a long time before I ever pull the lever for a conservative.

But neither party is fighting for the issue that matters most to me. The issue isn't glamorous like gay marriage, abortion, and immigration. The issue is not chest thumping like war, nuclear weapons, and the "axis of evil". The issue is rarely promoted by large special interest groups like the NRA, NOW, or the Christian Coalition. Even though the issue affects every American, if it is not dealt with it may have long term adverse consequences for everyone in the U.S. except for a small group of wealthy and privileged Americans. That favored group includes many Democrats, especially the ones we see representing us in Washington. John Kerry wasn't exactly a "man of the people" with his large vacation homes, private jets, and chauffeured transportation. I liked the man and voted for him. I'd probably vote for him again, but there is no way I can relate to him as a person. And the Republicans are worse - George W. Bush doesn't give a flying fuck about me, my family, or the welfare of my community.

What brought this all on were several medical problems that I recently had. I'm 33 years old, self employed, and I have no medical insurance. This hasn't been a problem because I make a decent living, and the several thousand dollars I spend on my family each year for checkups, dental visits, and eye exams has been within the budget. But because of a medical problem in the past, my wife is unable to get affordable medical coverage. The insurance cost for me, my wife, and our son would have been over $1000 per month, and it was out of our price range.

My medical problem still has not been "officially" diagnosed, but the bills are starting to pour in. I don't resent the bills, and they have all been expected, including several specialists and a long list of specialized tests performed at local hospitals. What I do resent is how much these places get away with charging the patient (usually through an insurance company or HMO). Since I have no insurance, the hospital sends an itemized list of all the charges to me. Look at some of these:

- Medical Surgical Supplies (1 I.V.) - $123.00
- 1 80 MG Baby Aspirin - $1.82
- EKG (took a tech 2-3 minutes to perform) - $135.00
- Cost to transport me to an X-Ray machine - $150.00
- CT Scan (took less than 5 minutes) - $1,470.00

The total bill was over $3,000, and that was just from the ER hospital. Other charges from x-ray companies, CT scan companies, physicians groups, etc. are still pouring in. The fact that for less than 4 hours in the ER I'm going to be paying $5000 - $6000 makes me extremely angry.

$1.82 FOR A FUCKING CHILDREN'S ASPIRIN???
I checked at my local grocery store, and I could get a 36 count bottle of kid's aspirin for $1.49. That comes to a little more than .04 per aspirin (4.138 cents to be exact). And I assume the grocery store has at least some profit calculated into the cost of the aspirin. And the hospital charged me 30 times the cost of the grocery store aspirin. I suppose that they have to charge me the labor for opening the bottle and dumping it into my hand, which is maybe 15 seconds, but I'll round up to 1 minute to be fair. At a rate of $100.00 per hour, 1 minute of time costs about $1.65. Add that to the $.04 per aspirin, and you get a little closer to the $1.82. Unfortunately, the person who gave me the aspirin was an unpaid volunteer (I asked her), so they raped my on the aspirin charge.

$135.00 for a goddamn 2 minute procedure that the doctor essentially ignored???
The EKG took 2 to 3 minutes to perform, and a doctor about 15 seconds to scan and toss aside. How the fuck can they justify that?

$150.00 for a giving me a helping hand off my goddamn bed???
The radiology and X-Ray department is run by an outside company (their bill was $800.00 above and beyond the hospital's bill). Even though the the X-Ray company is independent of the hospital, the hospital still charged me for the radiology work performed by another company. I assume since an ER orderly had to transport me the 2.5 feet to the mobile X-Ray machine, that they had to charge me the 2 - 3 minutes of his time.

$123.00 FUCKING DOLLARS FOR AN I.V. AND SOME RUBBER GLOVES!!!
The "Medical/Surgical Supplies" is the one that really gets me. The only "supplies" I can even think of must be the I.V. needle which is a $2 piece of equipment. A trainee working towards his EMT certification was the one who handled my I.V. (painfully, I might add). He messed it up and caused severely bleeding both on the interior and exterior of my arm, which was black and blue for weeks. Other than that, I can't think of anything that might quality as either a Medical/Surgical Supply. Maybe the $0.06 rubber gloves that the doctor put on every time he came to evaluate my chart? I don't know where they consider $2 worth of plastic performed by an unpaid trainee as being worth

EXTRAS
I won't even get into the amount of money it costs for a "consultation" with a nurse practictioner (prior to seeing a specialist), the Ultrasounds, CT Scans, x-rays, MRI's, medication, blood work, more blood work, stress tests, urine tests, stool tests, coordination tests, etc. The total cost of all this is going to run at least $20,000, and probably closer to $30,000, most of which these health care companies are expecting full payment within 90 days. I've lost at least $15,000 dollars because of lost work and financial opportunity. I will continue to lose money until they decide to pull me from the meds and allow me back to work.

TO RECAP:
Total estimated cost: $60,000.00.
Number of extra years after retirement I'll have to work to make up what I've spent from my retirement savings: 6.
The number of insurance companies who will now insure me: 0.
Knowing that I'm getting an unlubricated fucking from the American government: absolutely priceless

A Note: my family care physician thinks that I have Panic Disorder which is a scary problem, but very treatable, and something I suggested at the beginning of my treatment. It was initially cased by acute amounts of anxiety and stress, mostly over money. Think the medical community has done it's best to solve my problem? I'm going to be paying almost $1000 per month for 20 years to catch up. The stress from that is enough to keep my sick and paying out my sore ass for many years to come.

I'm not voting for a candidate unless he/she has a strong position for the enaction of a universal medical plan. Candidates without that stance won't even get a second look me from, no matter how strong or progressive or Democratic they are. I'm not fucking around with my life any more, and I'm tired of voting for candidates who won't represent what I want. I also will never again vote for a candidate that receives money from any large medical or pharmaceutical corporation.

Unless a candidate advocates a full and speedy change over to Universal Health Care, they will not get my vote, my money, or my support. And that includes any Democratic candidates who might stumble across this post. You politicians need to get your noses out of the collective special interest group ass and start listening to your constituents.

I'm no longer optimistic about the state of affairs here in the U.S, and my choices seem to be between a power hungry fascist group of rich assholes or a pathetic "opposition" party that has shown very little spine in their dealings with the fascists in power. I certainly expect my dry fucking to continue for many years.

[magellan]

1. When you start getting the bills

...call each (if they're from more than one place) and ask for an application for financial assistance. You likely qualify for a reduction in the costs, if not total forgiveness on them, depending on your income and outgoings. Please DO IT. The assistance is there for you.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

3. That's why the title of my post read the way it did

I'm literally a working middle-class poor person (my wife and I made about $70,000 last year). Taxes eat up about $10K, housing about $25K, transportation about $18K, and food, medicine, clothes, etc. eat up the rest. I'm lucky to save $5K per year. There was no way we could afford to pay the $10K to $12K per year for insurance.

I've already applied for assistance, but we make far too much money to get help. The best I've been able to get is a reduction in charges from a cardiologist (from $1200 down to about $700, but they wanted it up front). His staff was really great about it.

In most cases, the "deals" I'm getting is a reduction in interest from 24% to 18%, and an extension from 90 days to 6 or 12 months.

[magellan]

14. I hear ya

We're in the same boat, only much poorer than you. Ours was written off but they check back each year to see if we can start paying. Like you, we don't resent the bills at all...The hospital literally saved my life and the staff were wonderful to me. But it will be a huge hardship if on review one year they decide we can afford to pay (unless we win the lottery and have a lot to splash around). We would love to pay them off but we're working our booties off to survive as it is. So we're in the unenviable position of hoping to remain part of the working poor. Better that than becoming homeless.

Some American dream, eh?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

45. That's crazy and scary

I know that in my business if I have a client that hasn't paid, and I write it off, then I can't ever collect the money from that person. Check with an accountant to see if that's true in your state (medical bills may be treated differently).

BTW, the American Dream is mostly dead. The top 1% get richer and richer by sucking the life out of us all. One of the main differences between Dems and Reps (having experienced both camps myself in the last 10 years) is that Dems are fighting the system while Reps think that if they work hard enough, they'll become part of that 1% super-rich minority.

[BeTheChange]

42. Threaten to file for bankruptcy and offer to settle for way less..

My husband and I had 23k+ in medical bills from an asshole rear ending our car going 30 mph.. we had no insurance because we were starting our own business.

At first, we didnt pay the bills, we let them all go to collections because we didnt have any choice, we had no money. When we got jobs, making more then you and your wife (just for a point of reference), we called each place and told them we were evaluating filing for bankruptcy and asked them what we could work out. Keep in mind, we did have immediate cash, no payment plans.

We ended up paying about 5500 on the 23k+. We had to work on our credit for two years after, but now it is higher then it was before. They cannot ding you for medical bills.

Good luck to you. Its a fucking racket.

[taught_me_patience]

67. wow transportation costs of 18k are really high!!!

I spend 7k/year with a 20k car (Honda Accord $300/mo + $200 gas + $100 insurance). Not flaming or anyting, but you seriously need to think about priorities when budgeting for transportation. Spending 25% on your gross income on transportation is completely insane. Hell... HUD guidelines for affordable housing is 30% of your gross income.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

86. Both myself and my wife are self employed

We drive many miles each week. Fuel alone costs us about 3K per year, and that's with two vehicles that get 25+ MPG. My car payments total nearly 5K, my wife's about 6K. We spend 1 to 2 thousand on maintenance, and I fly several times a year for my work. It very easily adds up to $18K. The reason our tax burden is so small is because of the transportation expenses we write off.

[Yupster]

91. I had my own business and health insurance

was our biggest burden, especially since my wife is not healthy.

She went on the state High Risk Pool which helped quite a bit, but even my insurance was very expensive.

I eventually sold my business and went to work with a company which provides insurance.

[midnight]

33. Thanks for pointing this out.

I'm just so sad to hear of such hardships.

[dorktv]

2. There is hope on the way...I am working with a congressional group

called November Victory. About 100 candidates, not really loved by the DCCC but some of our members are going to get in Congress. And our plan is a simple single payer system with negotiated rates will all health care providers. Not fee for service but biannual budgets. Negotiated at the county level and medical malpractice will be covered by the system so that way not only will the providers support this plan, whenever the stock market has a hiccup, your rates will not go up.

Vote Dem this time for Congress. If you live in AZ or CA then vote Dem for the state lege. They WILL get single payer systems at the state level at least.

And I hope that you feel better soon.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

6. That's sounds great

Unfortunately, I'm in Idaho where a single payer system is as likely as an environmentally friendly African-American Atheist Lesbian being elected to office :).

November Victory sounds interesting, and like something I could focus some of my energies on (after all, time is all I have right now). Is there anywhere I could go to find more information?

[dorktv]

11. The website is not up yet I think. Right now we are working on

a major platform that covers ten issues that all the candidates voted on.

I will bookmark this thread and send you a link when the website is up.

So far I do not think we have any Idaho congressional candidates but we are trying to expand to include every candidate.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

19. Idaho politicians are all Republicans, but...

If there is anything I can do to recruit them or at least to make them aware of your efforts, how would I go about that?

[dorktv]

20. Well this year I think we have people running everywhere...

so check the local Dem party website.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

28. I've checked the Idaho Dem web site, but found nothing

If I were to send over a query for information from them, how would I refer to the project?

[dorktv]

31. Oh! I meant that your state party would have links (in theory) to

the various congressional candidates but I am checking our current list of candidates.

[dorktv]

32. Found 'em!

http://www.grantforcongress.com/ There you go! This is one of our candidates.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

48. I sent an email to Larry Grant

asking for his opinion on the subject. We'll see what sort of response I get. Idaho politicians are a weird sort, but Grant appears to be pretty normal. Grant's top five reasons for running for office (according to his web site) include Health Care, but he's VERY vague about it:

"Health Care. To make sure that every family that needs a doctor can see one, to be sure that every person who needs prescription drugs can afford them, and to protect Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare."

I specifically requested his stance on Single Payer and Universal Coverage health care plans in my message.

[dorktv]

66. I sent the plan I wrote out for Nov. Vic. yesterday to the list serv so

he could be reviewing it and probably will agree with it.

[Warpy]

4. Well, several points need to be made.

First, we need single payer health insurance. Some people are going to scream socialism no matter what we do, but the system is now irretrievably broken. There is no way to "tweak" it to save it or stave off disaster. It has to be reorganized and the for profit insurance companies taken out of it.

Second, that IV cost you $125.00 not for the teflon catheter, plastic tubing, sterile fluids or tape. It cost you that much because you are paying for a skill. I'm sure you don't begrudge the people who fix your computer, reroof your house, or put a new clutch in your car, so why are medical skills so undervalued? That aspirin included not only taking the physician's order off the chart, sending it to the pharmacy, double checking the drug, and handing it to you, it included monitoring you for adverse reactions, something that is more common with aspirin that you might think. Likewise, that 5 minute consideration of your EKG was the result of many years of intensive study. A good doc doesn't have to pore over it. The same thing generally took me about 15 minutes to interpret with RN training.

Yes, you were probably socked 3 to 5 times what an insurance company pays for the same procedures and equipment, and that is where the horror of modern medicine comes in, shifting costs away from the insured and onto the backs of those least able to pay. Another thing to consider is that housing and healthcare are the only things made in the US with 100% US labor, so they may be the reflection of true inflation in this country.

I have a story for you. A corporation had an extremely expensive piece of machinery that all the rest of their operations relied on, but it was an old machine. One day it stopped operating. The corporate manager called the only man in the country who knew how to fix it. He crawled inside the machine, there was a loud clang, and he crawled back out. His bill was $5,000.05. The manager was irate, "All you did was hit it with a hammer!"
The repairman replied, "That is the $.05 charge. The $5,000 is for knowing where to hit it."

That is part of what is at work with healthcare charges. Patients are not always aware of what is going on and how much skill it takes to monitor them.

But yes, the system is broken. It needs to be fixed. Every day we leave the present system in place maximizes the cost, the inefficency, and the cruelty for an increasing number of people just like you every day.

[MercutioATC]

16. Actually, we don't need single-payer...just universal coverage.

Howard Dean called for expanding the Federal Employee Health Benefit Program (FEHBP) to cover all Americans. I'm covered by FEHBP.

I have 10-15 different private health plans to choose from (HMO, PPO, PPV). Premimums vary. There is no exclusion allowed for preexisting conditions. All insurers must meet a set of guidelines as to what they will and will not cover.

The bottom line is that I'm guaranteed health coverage regardless of preexisting conditions. Expanding it to all Americans would add affordability (the insured would pay premimums on a sliding scale).

It'd also be a lot easier to get passed than a single-payer plan...

[Warpy]

18. We need SINGLE PAYER

because a large amount of insurance company overhead is dedicated to DENIAL OF CARE.

We need to get insurance companies OUT OF HEALTHCARE. They don't belong there. They are the problem, not a solution.

[MercutioATC]

38. I disagree...there's a way to incorporate them constructively.

My health plan is proof.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

49. Are you currently working in the medical field, Warpy?

It's always interesting to get an insider's view. One of the nurses that treated me recently was without any health care. It took too large a chunk of her check, but she was able to get huge discounts on preventative care.

And yes, I completely agree that the insurance companies shouldn't be anywhere near the health care industry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. We need single payer

the system is broken beyond belief

[MercutioATC]

53. Rather than just bemoan the state of the system, why not look for a way

to fix it? Do you have an actual reason why this plan wouldn't work?


Single-payer ain't gonna happen. The insurance lobby is too strong (plus, I'm not sure that I want the government in charge of my health care anyway). Wouldn't it be more prudent to look for ways to fix the existing system than to keep parroting "We need single-payer" when it's not a realistic possibility?

[eridani]

54. Except that the private insurers will refuse to insure sick people

They don't mind FEHBP because its service population is mostly healthy employed people. If a lot of sick people sign on, they will no longer be able to make profits. Therefore, they'll crash the program first.

[MercutioATC]

62. They won't have a choice.

They'll NEED to be involved with the program because they'll be virtually no market outside the program. They won't be able to refuse coverage to anybody if they wish to stay in the plan.

Might a few insurers opt out and try to support themselves by just insuring the wealthy? Sure, but there isn't a big enough market there to go around. Most insurers will have two choices, be a part of the program or cease to exist.

[eridani]

71. Then they will just jack up the rates to cover their exhorbitant profits

People of modest means won't be able to buy in then, and our congressional paid whores will go along with it. The only reason they make any profit off of insuring government employees is that the working population is much healthier than the non-working population.

[MercutioATC]

78. Those increases will be absorbed by the government for those that need it.

Buy-in will be scaled to income. The government would also have the option of mandating maximum annual rate increases if they chose.

I'd much rather have competing plans to shop from than one plan administered by the government. You really want the "paid whores" to be in charge of your healthcare?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

17. I get your point

I work in a field where I have a highly specialized skill (business rules based database and document management), and have even worked a bit with HIPAA regulations (ironically, the physicians group treating my at the ER was using a software application I developed). And, I do a lot of business consulting helping firms deal with inefficiencies. It was strange that I was in an extreme amount of pain, and still analyzing the horrible inefficiencies I could see all around me at the ER.

For example, I went to a special area in the ER for people with chest pains, and they had aspirin right next to the bed in my station (it also had the electical paddle zappers, and all sorts of contraptions to bring the dead back from the brink), so it wasn't as if there was a huge process involved in giving my the aspirin. A volunteer was told, "give the patient a children's aspirin", and that's what she did.

The IV was administered to me by an unpaid EMT trainee, who butchered my pretty good. It didn't bother me at all, in fact it was a kind of battle wound I could show off. But $125.00 to be a test dummy? I don't mind paying for the service, but I'm not paying full price at the beauty school for a hair cut, so why should I pay full price for a needle jab on EMT training day?

As for the EKG, it was a joke. The EKG guy was very good, and very professional - he had me hooked up to all the electrodes in 30 seconds flat, did the test, printed it out, and handed it to the doctor who happened to be standing right there. The doctor said "looks good", tossed it aside, and it ended up in the file I took home with me. Not something I want to pay that much money for. Even if an RN, being billed at $200 per hour by the hospital were to take 15 minutes to examine the EKG, $50 is the most the charge should be for me. How can any more be justified?

Don't get me wrong at all - the care I received was superb, but cost far more than it should. I don't begrudge medical workers and the medical industry the ability to make a fair profit. We really do have a great medical system in the U.S. - the myriad mazes of puzzling payment options, terms, etc. are the problem. Speaking with a medical billing specialist, she told me that the average medical invoice goes through seven different hands before getting to the payer(the insurance company, patient, etc.).

If I were to bill a client $135 for 15 minutes of work ($540 per hour), I wouldn't have that client for long. Unfortunately, in the medical industry, the client is held captive, especially someone like myself who has no insurance. It's not like I can go price shopping for ER's when I'm having chest pains.

It's time that the politicians took their dicks out of their hands and did something productive, and a single payer universal health system might be a good start.

[Warpy]

21. "A volunteer was told, "give the patient a children's aspirin?"

Uh, that is illegal. Volunteers do not give meds, not even aspirin. Licensed nurses or docs give aspirin. That person was no volunteer or that hospital would be sued out of business.

You are also discounting the equipment. Those EKG machines are good for about 5 years or so, can cost tens of thousands of dollars.

That doc had to have many, many years of intensive training to be able to interpret your EKG that fast.

Again, patients are generally unaware of what goes into their care.

As for the great medical system, think again. Hospitals have shaved costs on the backs of nurses for just a few too many decades. Staffing is at dangerous levels and getting worse every year. If you ever do need to be hospitalized, try to have someone stay with you.

We're back to that. Yes, indeedy.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

25. It wasn't a Candy Striper, if that's what you're thinking

She was more like the trained nuns you used to see in hospitals. Getting aspirin to the patient seemed to be one of the first orders of business, and there was a large supply of it in the emergency kit next to the bed in the chest pain unit. The woman who got the aspirin out was the one who checked back every 5 or 10 minutes to get me more bedding, make sure I was comfortable, and chatted me up to make me feel comfortable. She was definitely trained, the doctor spoke fairly technically with her. But she was a volunteer - I asked.

Possibly she was a retired RN who volunteered - and perhaps you're right that the hospitals are shaving costs on the backs of the nurses. Seems strange, though - this particular hospital just started work on a 9 figure expansion. As for staffing levels, I'd guess that the staff->patients ratio was at least 2 to 1. Is that bad or good?

Looking up EKG machines in the internet, I found them priced between $800.00 and $5000.00 brand new. Even at the most expensive, that's $1000.00 per year, or $83 per month. That's a pittance compared to the amount of revenue they generate. Now CT Scan machines and MRI machines - those are expensive.

[Mojorabbit]

83. This worries me

I have not worked in a long time as a nurse but when I did, no one but nurses were allowed to dispense medicine. I can't believe they would let a volunteer do it even if it was just an aspirin. It would be a big liability problem.

[TahitiNut]

29. "monitoring you for adverse reactions"

Well, in other businesses, that's called "marketing." There's no question whatsoever that should there have been any "adverse reactions" then they would be an opportunity to provide more profit-making 'services.'

Hell, we have people "monitoring our houses for adverse reactions" to time and the weather all over this neighborhood every week. The "monitoring" they do is free. It's when they "treat" the house that they get paid.

I guess we all deserve to get paid $200/hour for "monitoring ourselves for adverse reactions" to everything from insect bites to contaminated food?

:evilgrin:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

50. LOL - that's funny.

Kinda like when Microsoft introduces security holes and calls them "features", then charges everyone $300 to buy the "new and improved" OS that's just as unsafe as the previous version.

(and hey, I'm a Microsoft professional, so I KNOW)...


:evilgrin:

[acmejack]

5. Wait until you get the $196 bottle of Flonase!

Or the $38,000 pacemaker, I was in no position to complain at the time. They also dinged me for two leads at $750 apiece, installation was extra, of course. I feel your pain, literally...

[porphyrian]

7. Thank doctors and the insurance lobby. - n/t

[EvolveOrConvolve]

9. I don't think doctor's are to blame

Much of the blame goes to the insurance companies who have one motive - profit.

All the Docs I've worked with have been very cool, and many have worked with me on giving me free sample meds, generic drugs, etc.

Because of the insurance companies, every patient is not being charged the same price for the same procedure.

[porphyrian]

12. Doctors blame patient lawsuits for high doctor bills.

They join with the insurance lobby to pass "tort reform," which really just boils down to punishing the victim of malpractice for suing. Sure, some doctors are usually cool, and all doctors have their moments, but as a group, they put their money where the greater profits are, even at the expense of patients' rights. See Florida for examples.

[dorktv]

22. I ask doctors who tell me that to watch the stock market and see if

the malpractice premiums go up after it hiccups.

[sandnsea]

37. Doctors who refuse to see patients are to blame

And there are more and more of them every day. The emergency room just doesn't cover every possible medical situation.

[seabeyond]

8. do you ever watch cspan when they have the senate or house on

you should. you will get to hear how the dem reps are fighting for you. they are not in power. they are not able to give you what you what. but they are fighting for you. you should watch

[EvolveOrConvolve]

23. Democrats controlled both the Senate and House for decades

and nothing was done, even when European models were being successfully tested. Unfortunately, even some Dems have been tainted by big corporate and special interest money (but not as badly as the Reps, yet).

A good start would be to get ALL dollars out of politics so that politicians can start representing {{gasp}} their constituents.

[sandnsea]

51. We got Medicare, Medicaid and SCHIP

We wouldn't even have that if not for Democrats. I'm mad that we don't have more and that Reid and Pelosi aren't really pushing it as an issue, or don't seem to be anyway. But on the other hand, it is true that unless it's single payer, we can't get the left on board with anything either. Maybe the new Massachusetts plan will work and other states will start moving. Oregon is working to put a constitutional amendment on the ballot to make health care a right and require the state to come up with a solution to provide health care to everybody by 2009. So maybe.

But seriously, just opening up the federal plan and subsidizing it based on income would be so simple and really isn't government health care. It's an easy step in the right direction, I wish more people would support it. Before we friggin' die.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

58. None of those help me

Those programs do good things, but like I said in my OP, I'm a middle class poor person, who is probably now uninsurable. Unless I can get a doctor to declare me disabled (fat chance!), all medical bills in my life until I retire will be paid out of my pocket. When I can no longer afford to pay my medical bills, other uninsured suckers will pay more for their care at the institutions I couldn't pay.

The way our system works, the very rich can afford health care, the very poor are entitled to health care, and the middle class is left swinging in the breeze.

[sandnsea]

63. I don't either

The point was that Democrats are the ones that have provided what we do have so there's no point in getting mad at them. They're also the ones who will provide universal coverage, either through subsidized insurance or medicare for all. You either stand up for Demolcrats and health care, or you keep quiet and get nothing.

[SoCalDem]

82. They are actually planning on some to die

Health care is rationed here in the most cruel fashion.. People like Tony Snow can gush about the marvelous care, but if he had been a self employed Donut Shop owner, he would be D E A D ..because he would likely ignore early symptoms, until it was too late to save his life..

It kills me when I hear copmmentators casually toss this one out .."Everyone knows the democrats "win" on the health care issue".. so they KNOW that the majority of the people WANT universal health care, but because the greedy bastards who control the senators and congresspeople with their "slush-fund/campaign money" always manage to prevent US from getting what we want..

In a household you pay the important stuff first, and the "extras" come later.. health should be and probably IS at the top of most people's list, and yet it's the LAST issue our elected representatives consider...

It's a "left over" issue..if they have extra money/time...and they make sure they never have any of either../:grr:

[area51]

10. I'm so sorry this happened to you.

I hear you on this issue. I'm unemployed & have no insurance. It's a disgrace and a sick joke that the U.S. is the only industrialized country w/o some form of single-payer healthcare. It's a very important issue to me, & I worry every day that something could happen & I'd never be able to pay for healthcare.

Ironically, it'd be a win-win situation for richie rich businesses (Mal-Wart, Exxon, etc.) to use their huge wealth & pay for lobbyists to get Congress to put us on the path to universal healthcare. Businesses would save a lot of money by not offering healthcare, & they'd get more productive, healthier workers in return. Stupid, arrogant, short-sighted republinazi U.S. mega-businesses.

[jaxx]

13. I'm all for national healthcare.

We already pay for insurance and medicare and medicaid. Use that money so that everyone can have healthcare, it would cost about the same as the others together. Yeah the insurance co's and the pharmaceuticals would howl, but it's now down to us or them.

[MercutioATC]

15. You've hit on my pet issue...the one that means the absolute most to me.

Universal health care.

Let me preface this by stating that I've been fortunate in that I've been healthy and I'm covered by the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program (FEHBP).

What you're going through is not only a travesty, it's completely unnecessary. Universal health care (in the form of expanding FEHBP and Medicare to cover all Americans) is both feasible and economically advantageous.

Let's look at the two options, somebody with universal health benefits and somebody without (I'm using FEHBP as a model).

Somebody WITH universal health benefits gets access to health professionals at a reasonable cost. As a result, they are able to get preventative care and early treatment of their medical issues. The majority of these issues are handled in a doctor's office.

Somebody WITHOUT universal health benefits doesn't have access to reasonably-priced health care. They don't get preventative care. They don't get early diagnosis and treatment of their medical issues. As a result, their problems are much more costly to treat.

How does that cost US, you ask?

People without the ability to pay for medical treatment are forced to go to the only place where they (by law) can't be turned away....the emergency room. ER treatment is some of the most expensive treatment available.

Some people rant that they don't want to pay for somebody else's medical coverage. Guess what? They already are . When somebody goes to the E.R. and can't pay, they're still treated. The hospital has to absorb the cost. They do this by reducing labor costs (firing employees) and raising fees on medical care. In the end, it's more expensive than just getting ALL people access to health care.


I'm sorry for what you're going through. I'm sorry this rant wasn't more cohesive. What you're saying is important, though. I agree that it has to be a central issue.

[lonestarnot]

24. battle on for universal healthcare! You now have incentive!

[stevedeshazer]

26. Universal health care is a no-brainer, thanks

You've enumerated it quite well. I'm happy to see current and former Republicans and recalcitrant Democrats coming to this point of view.

Great post.

You're going to have a hard time finding candidates from either party who don't take money from Big Pharma, though.

That's why pragmatists should also support publicly funded federal elections, as former Sen. Alan Simpson (R-WY) has come around to and now actively supports, along with Bill Bradley, Bob Kerrey, and Warren Rudman.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jaxx]

30. We all pay taxes.

I'd rather see mine go to healthcare than Iraq. Oh wait, we're not free enough for me to have that choice, are we?

[adriennui]

34. i hope you forgot the sarcasm logo

if there is one thing the federal government OWES its citizens (after defense) it is the right to afforable healthcare.... no ifs, ands, or buts.

[Robbie Michaels]

35. K&R

[sandnsea]

36. I wanted to buy into a subsidized national health plan

Which is so easy for others to just toss off as not the pure single payer solution. It doesn't matter to me anymore, I've accepted that I'll just get sick and die because nobody knows the meaning of the word compromise.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

43. That's the way I've been feeling lately

Unless I get a McJob or work at a desk for a 100 hours a week, there's just no way I'm going to get health insurance. That's why I'm pissed at both Republicans and Democrats. While the D and R politicians argue about the best way to give back to the poor pharamaceutical companies, people are fucking dying, and if my health issues turn out to be anything serious (cancer, etc.), I'll probably die because of the lack of compromise on either side.

Just for you, I started up 'The End' by The Doors on my iTunes. A depressing song for my depressing mood...

[sandnsea]

52. I took a different route

I bought a used piano. I figure if my times limited because I can't go see a doctor, I better make every day count!!

[eridani]

55. We can't afford to subsidize private insurance company profit

We are ALREADY PAYING for universal health care; we just aren't GETTING it. Take the profit out of insurance, and there is enough for good health care for all.

[Daphne08]

56. Yep. n/t

[sandnsea]

64. Thank you for letting me die

Literally. I've complained about not being able to fix my hearing, which isn't a big deal. But now there's a weird pain in the right side of my head. It's probably nothing, but I can't afford an MRI to find out. Such is life.

That's what your bullshit purity on health care is doing. Letting real people die. Medicare for all OR subsidized health insurance or even Hillary care; none of it was going to get rid of for profit health care or insurance. Most countries have both public and private health care and health insurance. So you're really talking out of your ass when you insist on getting profit out of health care or nothing.

And letting real people die.

[eridani]

70. It it the insistence on profit that is killing you

Nobody cares whether private companies supplement governmnent insurance with extra bells and whistles, just like I don't care if Bill Gates has an expensive alarm and sprinkler system that I can't afford. All I care about is that we both get access to the same fire engines if we need them.

Health insurance cannot by its nature be profitable unless the private insurers exclude actual sick people.

[sandnsea]

73. No, its the unwillingness to compromise,

learn about the actual health delivery systems in other countries and accept the reality that most systems are public/private because we all live in capitalist societies. Your inability to accept that reality and support a logical solution, like subsidized health insurance, that provides health care to everybody is killing people. On your conscience.

[eridani]

75. Yes, the government does the heavy hauling

and the private insurers provide the bells and whistles for the more affluent. We can't afford subsidies, but we can afford just taking care of everybody for nearly everything except your more expensive bells and whistles.

My conscience was formed by many hungry nights as a kid due to my parents' partial disability disqualifying them from health insurance at any price.

[sandnsea]

76. That's how we take care of everybody

Subsidize various health insurance plans that are already available because it guarantees that those who won't budge off their bells and whistles won't have anything to object to. This country will not accept single payer health care, not in at least the next 25 years.

Maybe your conscience will be further formed when you're actually looking death in the face instead of just having to get by on mac n cheese until pay day.

[eridani]

81. Those who have the bells and whistles now don't NEED subsidies

The notion that the country will not accept universal health care is bullshit. In 2004, the Pew foundation survey found that 91% of Dems preferred universal health care to tax cuts, AND 51% OF REPUBLICANS. The country accepts it just fine--it's our bribed to the teeth representatives who don't.

[The_Casual_Observer]

39. Somebody has to pay for those 3 million dollar homes and country

club memberships and season tickets. It was your turn.

[Djinn]

40. National health care

just isn't that hard to provide - half the world manages it, you guys pay through the nose and get lousy care back.

why aren't you all rioting on the streets?

That said I find it a bit annoying when people call themselves poor because it's harder than it used to be to save 5K a year, having 5K a year left after paying for essentials is not the definition of poor

[EvolveOrConvolve]

44. I don't know why we aren't all rioting in the streets

There are 45 million of us that are at risk of dying because of the government's inability to get it's swollen head out of it's bloated ass. Maybe we're afraid to riot because we might get injured and we don't have health insurance? :P

As for being "poor" and saving 5K per year: That is not even close to being enough for retirement. After the Republican baby boomers get done with it, the Social Security "Trust" fund is going to be bankrupt. 5K per year just won't cut it.

I don't think you understand what I meant when I used the term "middle class poor." Middle class poor people are those who make too much money to get government assistance, but no where near enough to afford adequate health care insurance.

[Djinn]

72. I understood what you meant

It's just sometimes a bit grating to hear, there's plenty of us for whom retirement is going to mean starvation because we couldn't save even close to that amount regardless of whether we need to.

Actually I'm in a much better position than I was a year ago so I probably shouldn't say "we" anymore.

Anyway not a dig, just a comment

[kineneb]

92. I understand

We were at that point, but I decided that health care was more important than my income, so I voluntarily cut back my hours to qualify us for CMSP (a Cal. program for rural, medically indigent adults). Hubby was heading for renal failure and had to have medical care. The only way to get it was to become poor and get rid of our assets to qualify.

There was no other choice, since no insurer would consider him, and without meds and care, he would be dead by now. He is now in dialysis, on SSDI and Medicare and qualifies for Medicaid as long as our income stays under (officially) $1437/month. There is no money for retirement, and if I work, he looses the Medicaid. He is 59 and I am 47. We live for and in the moment, in a rather Zen way.

Hang in there.

[Iowa]

41. Good post...

Spot on. I agree completely. Our health care system is in free-fall. The fact that no fix is on the horizon is as good an indication as any that the American people do not run this country. We're living in an imperial corporate oligarchy.

[leftofthedial]

47. yours is the most widespread serious problem in America

(lack of insurance and skyrocketing, outrageous, indefensible costs, not your illness)

Back when you were a Republican, Bill and Hillary Clinton tried to introduce a modern healthcare system to America. The insurance, financial services and pharmaceutical lobbies poured millions into defeating their efforts. The Republicans used this and other issues to take control of Congress.

Some Democrats are in the pockets of the insurance industry (notably Joe Biden and Joe Lieberman), but this is largely the fault of Republicans in my estimation.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

57. I supported Hillary's plan

Even as a moderate Republican (I was never the ditto-head, Rush-wannabe, Reagan-worshipping jackass type of Republican). It's a goddamn shame what happened to it. I was still young enough to be included on my parent's insurance plan back then and was waiting tables at a business that didn't provide medical insurance when I got too old to be covered any more. It scared the shit out of me when I realized how much it cost to see the doctor, dentist, eye-doctor, etc.

I'm not sure how you can defend Democrats that are in the pockets of the insurance industry by blaming it on Republicans. Bought-and-paid-for politicians are bought-and-paid-for, whether they have a D or an R next to their name. I refuse to support politicians, including Democrats, that are in the pockets of large corporations and not looking out for MY best interests.

45 million uninsured Americans could be the largest voting bloc in the U.S, but health care is not a sexy issue. I think it will take a Dr. King type figure to lead a movement that changes American perceptions about the issue. I haven't seen that champion yet.

[raccoon]

60. Abso-friggin-lutely, neither Democrats nor Republicans are

going to give us a national health plan, unless we or the big corporations friggin demand it.

The Democrats give the idea lip service; the Repubs don't even bother to do that.

[leftofthedial]

65. I blame Dems who are in the pockets of insurance companies

but all repukes are culpable, only some Dems (most, but not all)

[4_TN_TITANS]

59. Just one medical disaster away.....

that's my family too. Even making $50,000 combined/yr., I'm trying to figure out how we will juggle gas and groceries for the rest of the week. How people making less than that get by, I can only wonder.

[kineneb]

94. we don't

The only way we survive on Hubby's SSDI payment is with (under the table) help from family. The discount grocery is our friend, along with the Dollar store, thrift shops and the monthly commodities give-away. Mom helps by buying us clothes if we need them. Thank goodness, when we had to sell our house and move, we were able to buy our house almost outright- our house payment is quite small. Otherwise we would be renting a dump and going hungry. We are the middle of the Chapter 7 process.

I am trying to figure out how to get some dental work done. The dentist says I need a root canal and crown, but the low-income state coverage I have only covers fillings and extractions. I may just have to live with a bad tooth for a while.

Oh, and we are trying to live on $14K/year.

[rucky]

61. Universal Healthcare NOW

not tomorrow. NOW. no Buts.

[StellaBlue]

68. Can I quote this in my blog?

If I link to this thread and credit you?

K&R

:kick:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

87. Go right ahead.

[mdmc]

69. Remember during the 2003 primary debates

Kucinich stated he was for universal health care. He asked the other candidates, "Why can't we have universal health care?" The rat worm dinos didn't have an answer.

[sandnsea]

74. He was for single payer health care

And insisted that there was only one way to do it, his way. Despite the fact that France and other European countries have a variety of delivery systems that provide health care to all, and that many of them are public/private systems. And many of them require a monthly premium too. Dean and Kerry had the best ideas, federal plans that are based on income that anybody can buy into. It won't require a huge change in our system and people like me can see the doctor. If you and Dennis Kucinich aren't willing to foot the bill for us 45 million that can't see a doctor, I wish you'd at least have the decency to shut up while we move forward. Like they did in Massachusetts or the one Granholm is introducing in Michigan.

[MercutioATC]

79. Exactly!

Single payer just isn't going to happen.

There are, however, ways we can use the current structure to provide affordable health care to everybody (with the government footing a portion of the bill). That's what we should be working toward, IMO.

[Vinca]

77. I'm in the back of your boat. No insurance and no hope of being

able to purchase affordable coverage because my husband is a diabetic and we're both almost 60. We've been covering all our expenses for years because when we could still afford insurance, the deductible was so high we never met it. Since giving up insurance, I've gone out of my way to avoid anything connected to the medical community, mainly because I'm pissed off. We self diagnose, self medicate and hope for the best. I've been in agony with an old injury that most likely will require orthopedic surgery. If I win the lottery, I'll have it done. This country is "bassackwards." Health should be a basic right, just like education. Education is publicly funded, why not basic health care? Our current problem is the corporate ownership of America. Health care is for profit and the more baby aspirin they can sell you, the bigger pensions fat, rat bastards like the Mobil guy can walk away with. On a cheerful note, I'm in New Hampshire and THE SUN IS OUT!

[benEzra]

80. If you make enough to pay taxes, THERE IS NO SAFETY NET...

I feel your pain. Our 7 y.o. son is a cardiac kid with lots of other medical issues related to DiGeorge Syndrome (aka velocardiofacial syndrome), a highly variable syndrome caused by the deletion of a few genes on chromosome 22. He looks like any other kid, though a bit small for his age, but he was born completely missing the pulmonary artery and valve (Tetralogy of Fallot with complete pulmonary atresia), no thymus, some endocrine issues, and classic malrotation of the bowel. He had open-heart surgery at age 10 days and another just prior to his fourth birthday; he's also had seven angioplasties, a Ladd procedure, and too many other procedures/treatments/therapies to count.

We do have insurance, but with copays and deductibles and non-covered services and non-PPO anesthesiologists on heart surgeries etc. etc., we have so far paid maybe $50,000 out of pocket over the past 7 years. We've had some hospitals write off some bills, but most won't.

Guess what? My seriously ill son doesn't qualify for Medicaid or SSI. Why? Because I make enough money to pay taxes. His cardiac and immune problems allowed him to be ruled SSI disabled, but he's excluded from any SSI assistance because my income ON PAPER is above the limit. He doesn't qualify for Medicaid because of my income. He's not quite sick enough for CAP-C Medicaid, and he's mentally sharp so he doesn't qualify for CAP-MR/DD, despite being developmentally disabled (he can't speak intelligibly due to velopharyngeal insufficiency, can't eat food (long story, thanks a lot PCHRG), has gross and fine motor delays, etc. And most hospitals won't give us a break, either, because "we're too well off" (they don't look at anything but gross income).

We've teetered on the verge of bankruptcy for years. We had our water disconnected a couple days last month because we had nothing to pay it with, and I had to pawn a valued possession in order to get gas money to take him to the regional children's hospital for an appointment with their cleft palate team. Bills from hospitals/doctors/collection agencies are stacked six inches high in my bill box, but I can't do anything with them because I have nothing to pay them with. We have $25 in savings, about $120 in checking to last us until next Friday (the utilities are due, but they'll have to wait until next payday or else none of us will eat), I haven't had a medical checkup or visited a dentist in three years, once got turned away from an urgent care clinic (with pneumonia!) because I couldn't pay up front. Spent a month of late nights recently, cleaning and installing a junkyard transmission in my wife's '93 Voyager because the trans failed, and we couldn't afford another vehicle and couldn't pay someone to fix the one we have. I hope to God the second trans holds up, because that vehicle takes my wife and kids 300+ miles round trip once or twice a week to a feeding therapist in Raleigh, doctors visits UNC Children's Hospital in Chapel Hill, Duke Children's Hospital in Durham, etc....

But you know what? With all that, we don't qualify for ANY financial assistance, because we are supposedly "rich." Maybe I'll take all that money I don't have and create a "medical savings account"...yeah, right...

If I took a job that paid considerably less, we'd be in clover from a medical standpoint. SSI money rolling in to pay for his special nutritional formula, Medicaid as secondary insurance to help cover copays and deductibles, state-funded therapists lining up at our door to help him/us with his medical and developmental issues. But then we'd lose our house, our insurance, etc. and would be starving in a cardboard box in the six months it'd take to become eligible for medicaid...and medicaid doesn't cover pediatric formula...

A friend of mine has a child with hemophilia. My friend has a college degree, but took a job as a janitor so his family would qualify for Medicaid...

I hear you loud and clear, EvolveOrConvolve...

[NorthernSpy]

84. it took me a long time to understand this...

Having grown up on the low end of working class, I'd always assumed that if you had a good income, you'd have security in nearly all aspects of life. After all, that's how it works in most of the industrialized world.

But not here, apparently. It was a big surprise to learn that even affluent Americans can end up experiencing the kind of life-blighting insecurity (in attempting to obtain healthcare, education, housing, etc) that used to be thought characteristic only of the lives of the poor.

I'm sorry about what you and your family are going through, BenEzra.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

89. That's one of the saddest stories I've heard in a long time

I've been run through the medical wringer for only a couple months, and I'm going to end up $30K to $60K out of pocket. I can't imagine how you survive, and it makes me so so sad to see that the politicians are letting this happen.

The politicians are literally KILLING thousands of people, and seem to do little more than give speeches about the issue. I'm so sorry about your son - I'm so grateful to have a healthy 9 year old boy, and it brings tears to my eyes even thinking about what you're going through with your son. It makes me even sadder to think of the pain and agony he's going through. Keep strong. :hug:

I read a story a long time ago of a man who broke into a pharmacy late at night to steal insulin for his diabetic child, and was caught by the police coming out of the store's back door. The amount of insulin he stole was enough to get the man convicted of grand theft and he went to prison where he was killed by another inmate who had also been raping him. The son eventually died, not of his illness, but from suicide. The story must have been at least twenty years ago, and may have been in Reader's Digest.

I've very little hope left for the survival of our society.

[Tracyjo]

85. Do whatever you can do not to go to an ER!

The prices are outrageous there. It's almost like they charge by the second, and they don't even do anything for you. I know because I work in a lab that deals with an ER. Try to stay out of that place. It's a lot cheaper to see an outside doctor.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

88. Sometimes it is necessary

I was having massive chest pains very early on a Sunday morning - it definitely wasn't something I'd wait around to see if it went away, or until I could get an appointment with my primary care doc.

I did see a lot of people in the ER waiting room with their kids who were sick with flu, the common cold, etc. It broke my heart because I knew that those people couldn't afford a family doctor, and the ER is the only place that will take them.

Also, since our wonderful Republican majority voted down the proposal for a local detox center, extreme detox cases are seen in the emergency room. The poor guy next to me during my ER visit was in some serious DT pain, and eventually several guards had to physically restrain him because of his convulsions, violence, screaming, etc.

[upi402]

90. I'm with YOU! op

I don't see much point in trying to help things anymore. Politics has been sold to us as a horserace. A team sport. And the media reports lies and superfluous distractions. Money controls a corrupted enfranchisement. And many whose eyes are open refuse to see it. I would bet my next 59 EKG's that America will hit a protracted recession that will change our standard of living if people don't wake up and fight the assfucking we're getting. We don't HAVE to allow it, but we do.

[pitohui]

93. without insurance you have no contract

the un-insured pay the price for the insured, the insurance company negotiates contracts with providers and pays only a fraction of what the uninsured pay

so when you pay 2 bucks for a baby aspirin it is because you are also helping to chip in for all the insured patients whose insurers have a contract so that they only pay 2 cents for a baby aspirin

either you or your spouse needs to get a job with health benefits

the old dream of being self-employed and working for yourself is over, the health insurance mafia has seen to that, i am sorry i spent so many years self-employed which basically has made me unemployable and i would NEVER advise any young person in their 30s to go down that path

if you think it's bad now, wait until you're in your 40s and no one will sell you insurance at any price at all -- which is what happened to me

one of you must somehow, some way, get a real job if at all possible

nothing is going to change politically in this country, the country has been looted of its wealth by the bushes and there is nothing left for health care for ordinary citizens, you could die waiting

take care of yourself and yours, you are on your own

[EvolveOrConvolve]

96. That's complete and total bullshit

My wife or I should get "real jobs" and just give up our dreams? Two words. FUCK THAT! I'll say it again. FUCK THAT! I'm not going to work for some mega-corporation and become a corporate whore. Even then, I'm not guaranteed that I'll be insured, or that my family will be covered. The only way that I can guarantee that I'll get health care coverage for my family is for both my wife and I to stop working and become destitute.

I'm already in a position where no one will sell me insurance. My wife is on the brink of being uninsurable. We just ordered a medical/dental/eye policy for our son that's about $90 per month, so he'll be covered. As for my wife and I, I'm going to fight (maybe literally to the death) for universal health coverage.

[sendero]

95. My wife has..

... some serious health problems. She (we) have good insurance, but we live in fear of ever losing it. Because with her issues, we'd be wiped out in a matter of months.

The medical system in this country is out of control. Specialists and hospitals in particular, are RAPING the system. You think $135 for an EKG is bad, get a colonoscopy - a 15 minute procedure with anasthesia, and look at the bill. It is freaking unbelievable.

This country is broken in so many ways, it's not even possible to rank them any more.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

97. Don't tell me that

I may be getting a colonoscopy in the next month or so.

I'm really sorry to hear about your wife. My wife has some health problems that are recurring, but not serious. But I guess the problem she has is a precursor to something a lot worse. And we have no coverage for her whatsoever.

And you're right that specialists are raping the system. My cardiologist appointment went like this:

1) 2 minutes with a nurse to get a list of my medications (none at the time)
2) 2 minutes with the Cardiologist who listened to my innards with his stethoscope. He hadn't looked at my chart yet, but assured me that my primary care doctor had recommended a stress test.
3) 15 minutes running on a tread mill for the stress test.
4) 3 minutes of the Cardiologist looking at the results of the stress test: "I see no problem here. Your heart is in great condition. Take this information to your family doctor so he can put it in your file." He then gave me a copy of the EKG/BP/HR readings and a pamphlet on heart disease.
5) 60+ minutes while I made payment arrangements.

The total bill from the cardiology clinic was $615.00 - but I'm sure I'll be getting another bill from the doctor for his stuff. That Cardiologist also assured me that because he thought that my problem was gastrointestinal, that he would refer me through me primary care physician to a Gastroenterologist. He never did that. In fact, his report that was to have been in my family doc's possession within a week of my visit never materialized. I have a sneaking suspicion that that's why I was given all the stress test data.