My Pet Goat Theory

[mikelewis]

I think I now understand why Bush just sat there. Out of all the reactions I can imagine in my American brain, just sitting there seems very odd. Try and imagine this; you're the President of the United States, you are just told that America is under attack. At that point, you don't know who, you don't know what, you don't know why and you don't even know if the attacks are over. What do you do?

I know what most people here in America would say, "I'd jump right up, find out what in tarnations going on and start shooting some people." I don't even need to do a poll to know this is true. Remember the 80% poll numbers of the President after the Bull Horn Scene? After he said, "I heard you, and the people who detonated the explosives in these buildings are going to hear from all of us soon." Many were fully shocked and awed, myself included.

So, you know what you're reaction would be. You know you'd either do one of two things, flight or fight. But here in America, the land of the Free and the home of the Brave, is flight an option? Is there any other action than an immediate and overwhelming apocalyptic fight? Of course there is, just not in this culture. Read these few clips from a post I ran across and see if this makes sense.

It's from an Iraqi Blogger whose simply talking about life in Iraq. In his Blog entitled "Cultural Differences and Respect: How can chewing gum be lethal?" he offers some amazing insights.

Different people simply react differently to similar stimuli. What can only be seen as perfectly normal actions in one culture can convey unintended images to another. In many instances, society expects a certain mode of behavior.
http://glimpseofiraq.blogspot.com/

He then goes on to describe an incident where the U.S. Army was handing over control of Saddam's palace in Tikrit. Our ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad was in attendance along with other Iraqi and American dignitaries. During the ceremony a mortar round lands close by and even though it didn't explode, the people went scurrying for cover. Does that surprise anyone? Of course not, it's a natural reaction. But read on...

But, for a few seconds I noticed a group of four Iraqis in traditional Arab dress who remained standing quietly. I thought that was fascinating! I am almost certain I saw one of them smiling! Weren’t those people afraid? Of course they were… but they couldn’t show it.

This brought to memory a tribal sheik I knew who used to take his only son with him to the weekly tribal gathering - a routine assembly where tribal kin met and discussed things of common interest and solved some of the conflicts that needed addressing. For most part of a day, that young teenager had to endure long sessions of what must have been boring proceedings and discussions. If the boy as much as turned his head quickly following a sudden noise such as a slamming door or a shattered glass of water, that man, would scold the boy on the way back home. Sudden, undignified movements like those were simply unacceptable for a future tribal chief. Perhaps this example is a somewhat extreme, but it illustrates the point I am trying to make.

In much of tribal Iraq, which includes about half of all Iraqis, people in positions of leadership or authority are expected to remain calm and collected at all times, including times of crises. Posture is of utmost importance. This of course is not unique to Iraqis.

No, apparently it's not unique to Iraqis or other Arabs but it is unique to Americans. To watch one of our leaders pretend to ignore unexpected explosions and death disturbs us greatly. It conjures up all sorts of wacko ideas and conspiracy theories. Had I known that this is a normal reaction in the Arab world, I might not have jumped to certain conclusions or I might have just jumped on them a bit sooner.

So this is why I think George W simply sat there pretending to be unaffected by such terrible news, he wanted to show that he was a strong leader. But who was he showing this leadership to? It certainly wasn't Americans, was it? American's expect John Wayne not Saladin. When we expect John Wayne and get Saladin it confuses us and makes us think he was frightened, overwhelmed or complicit. But he wasn't frightened or overwhelmed, was he? To the eyes of an Arab, he was strong and in command. So if this is true, why, at that time, when we were under attack by an unknown foreign enemy did George W. put on a show for the Arabs?

[sleipnir]

1. I think you might be on to something.

"Americans expect John Wayne and get Saladin."

Quite true...

I think this is the crux of the situation.

[mikelewis]

4. Remember, until that time he assumed it was pilot error...

According to the official story, Bush watched the first plane hit and assumed it was a "bad pilot". So why, when he got confirmation that it was an actual terrorist attack did he assume the demeanor of an Arab cheiftan? How did he even know to do this so as to not be seen as weak by the Arabs? Do they expect us to believe that he's smart enough to think of that on his own that fast?

[eve_was_framed]

2. very interesting but I don't buy it for a minute, sorry. nt

[oasis]

3. Bush's deer in the headlights look said everything. "Oh my God, we fucked

up".

[babylonsister]

5. It bears comparison but derision. My question is whether he

was overwhelmed or complicit?

[mikelewis]

8. All I know is...

He didn't flinch.

[RagingInMiami]

6. But that still doesn't explain why he chose to walk into the classroom

in the first place after learning the first WTC building got hit. He sat there for several minutes after learning of the second plane slamming into the building.

[The Straight Story]

7. Well let me give you my thoughts on this (flame away folks)

Not defending bush per se, but he has a plethora of people working for him whom are better trained to handle a crisis quickly so he let them do their job.

Now all well and good - BUT my question to many here would be, how would we have reacted had he jumped up and then later said 'well it was evident we were under attack and I had to get in there and do something' - well that seems like what we would want or expect to hear but then sure enough people would say 'how did he know there were more attacks coming, how did he know that there were going to be more? From where he sat all he knew were two planes hit wtc's and that was it - so therefore he must have known there was more coming and used this to look strong...'

Point to me is - no matter what he did we would find reason to find it wrong. There are plenty of other reasons to doubt the official line, I just don't really see this as one of them. I am more interested in what our military did, faa, etc and so on. I am also wondering why the Secret service did not act quickly to get the president out of the room and to safety as the first thing I would think when we are being attacked is that his schedule was known and he would be a target.

Maybe sitting there WAS an indication of something - maybe not. But if it was I am thinking the suspicion lays more with those who protect him than he himself. Had ICBM's been launched I bet his ass would have ran from the room to his plane that second.

The simplest expl. to me is that some people were too stupid to put 2 and 2 together and figured it was an attack, involving only 2 planes for sure at that time, and might as well finish and see if anything else happens. STILL poor leadership IMHO but not a major line in a conspiracy.

[The Straight Story]

9. PS - try this conspiracy on for size - the democrats did it!

Yep. They hated that bush won, still a lot of them in government jobs, wanted bush to look bad, so they mihop.

Now IF we took that angle, as purely an exercise in learning, how well could we make the case if we had a desire to? Planted evidence, etc and so on.

Not saying it did happen that way of course :) but when someone wants something bad enough they often start making things fit or go off the deep end (ala, no planes really hit, aliens, etc)

[mikelewis]

11. What an odd reaction when I never claimed Bush did it...

Of course you can infere that I believe he did by my jibes at him but I was merely suggesting that perhaps his behavior was somehow both logical and explainable. If that means he was aware of what was happening, so be it. It hardly has anything to do with my OP.

[The Straight Story]

12. well this snippet:

"So if this is true, why, at that time, when we were under attack by an unknown foreign enemy did George W. put on a show for the Arabs?"

Seems to indicate some belief that he knew we were and that it was arabs and hence had foreknowledge and planned his reaction ahead of time.

[mikelewis]

13. No, it really doesn't...

It also offers the possibility that his mind was so quick that when he realized that it was Arab terrorists (because all terrorists are Arabs), he instantly knew how to project strength to the Arab world. Maybe he learned this from an early age from his father's dealings with the Saudis? Maybe it was a natural reaction of a disciplined youth? That would sort of blow the whole "he's a coked-up idiot" theory out of the water but hardly means he knew 9/11 was a covert op to seize dictatorial control over America and plunder the earth.

[MnFats]

10. It still pisses me off that no one around * said 'as long as we're...

in a school and the nation is under attack, all the children in this school are in danger. Let's get the president the hell away from this place before somebody flies an aircraft into this elementary school....

but then maybe they KNEW nobody was going to attack the elementary school....no, that's too whacko for words. I take it back.

[Beam Me Up]

29. Of course they knew the pResident was not a target.

If there had been one iota of doubt, his ass would have been out of there before he knew what grabbed him. The Secret Service has direct, high level and highly encrypted communications systems directly with NORAD and FAA. He IS the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of the whole damn military command structure, you know. Still, when push came to shove, it was Cheney in the Operations room at the White House. They had BuBa in the room with a bunch of children still learning to read.

I tell you, the perps behind this are CYNICAL beyond belief!

[shraby]

14. I think you're way off base concerning Bush.

If you watch F9/11 when he's sitting there, he's very slightly rocking. This tells me he's unsure, scared and doesn't know what to do. The rocking motion is very slight, but noticeable.
When I'm sick, I'll lay in bed rocking my body and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[mikelewis]

15. There's another possibility that can explain his rocking...

Excitement.

On edit:
A poker player tries not to show excitement when they have a good hand or are merely bluffing. There are good poker players and there are one's who fidget. I like playing with fidgeters. Unless of course they fidget all the time, then it just annoys me.

[driver8]

70. You are right -- he was scared and didn't have a freakin' clue

as to what to do next. He is a false leader...a phony...a chickenhawk. He talks the talk but definitely does not walk the walk.

George Bush is a coward, plain and simple.

[mikelewis]

77. That coward has murdered more than 30,000 people...

If we now know Bush lied about Iraq then all of the deaths as a result of that lie are considered murder; tot legally of course because the law is merely how we define it. There is no law that says a President can't go around the world killing innocent people. Even if there is, a law not enforced is no law at all. So not only is he a "false leader...a phony...a chickenhawk"; he is also a mass murderer, a deceiver and a usurper. Thank goodness he's an idiot too or he just might be a real threat.

[oasis]

16. So AWOL, loser, fratboy rises to the occasion to look tough for the enemy.

It's not in his history or in his character to meet a challenge by thinking on his feet. He's always had others making a way for him, his dad, Cheney etc.

You're giving this cowardly dunce far too much credit.

[mikelewis]

17. Sun Tzu says...

Never Misunderestimate Your Enemy

[oasis]

18. Kipling says "You'll be a man my son *IF* you're the opposite of W"

;-)

[mikelewis]

19. But it was Descarte who stated, "I think....

Bush is a prick."

[oasis]

23. I got one up on Descarte because I "know" Bush is a prick.(eom)

[mikelewis]

24. Touche!

I am bested!

[oasis]

25. Now get after that prick Blackwell.

:kick:

[mikelewis]

26. Don't you mean Gov. Blackwell...

It's all over except for the counting.

[oasis]

28. It's not over till the fat lobbyist (Abramoff) sings.

:toast: Who know which GOP slime will be going down?

[Dunedain]

20. So are you

He's just a dolt.;)

[oasis]

21. wha?

:shrug:

[Dunedain]

32. Credit

you were giving him credit for being a coward,
I was disagreeing and saying that he is too stupid to be a coward.
I probably should have told you I agreed with what you typed,
before I tried to be a wisecrack.

[oasis]

33. I understand. The late hours get to us all.

:hi:

[mikelewis]

22. He's just stupid enough to have...

climbed on top of the biggest nest of vipers this world has ever known. Delay, Frist, Abramoff, Arnold, Robertson, Fallwell, this guy I can't stand who hangs out at the coffee shop; all these guys get on bended knee before him and you're sitting in your basement calling him a dolt.

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." Verbil Kint

[Dunedain]

34. He is a dolt

Why shouldn't I call him that? Here in my basement, sitting.
The rest of what you say is hyperbole.
Nice quote, whats your point? I'm naive?
I wish, I'll see you're school of hardknocks, and raise you three sorrows.
Here in my basement, sitting, being flip on the internet.

[mikelewis]

44. Naive, no... not naive...

I mean this in no way derogatory but you seem a bit gullible. You easily buy a story that contradicts itself constantly. Even the contradictions in my reasoning can't even come close to the leaps of faith needed to believe that our government wasn't aware and wasn't able to respond to 9/11. You say my arguement is hyperbole but I contend that it is not. In fact it is your portrayal of Bush as some retard at Camp Sunshine that is the hyperbole. Yes, he is not the brightest bulb in the batch but he is a competent adult. He's just not a competent President.

You insinuate that he can barely tie his shoes but you say this when he is currently tying up the Supreme Court. You mock him because he is ignorant of any other culture beside the "Texan" but you believe he's smart enough to play cowboy. You do not think him capable of any subtle messages and yet what subtle message is sent out by pretending to be John Wayne? If he can send that message effectively to millions of people, why would you assume he was incapable of sending the same message to the Arab people? I will give no more credit to Bush than I think he is due but I will not underestimate someone who has accomplished the things he has. For good or ill, he and his freinds have changed the world. Someone smart enough to do that may be smart enough to know how to project strength in an Arab culture.

Yippee Ki Yea.

[linazelle]

52. It has taken this long to come up with an explanation for his cowardice?

Pfffft. Apologists. :eyes:

[Jemmons]

27. This was put up on another forum in an Iran discussion

Lots of breathless Evil Bush conspiracy theories.
Not a shred of proof.
Of course, this whole Iran Nuke crisis was manufactured by Bush, that diabolical genius (or is he a moron? I can't keep the plot straight). The EU, the UN, and the IAEA are just helpless dupes of his Evil Master Plan to hide the real reasons for this situation. I shoulda known...

and one of our freinds answered:

Bush is a moron, the rest of the cabinet are the diabolical genius's. In this view, Bush doesn't actually run the country, Cheaney and Co. do, Bush is just the puppet. He has to make speeches (and so we know he's a moron) and he even gets to make the odd decision or two, but most stuff is not his idea at all. Whether he's too stupid to realise that or not I can't say.

Amung other things this explains how Bush reacts when he is just Bush and not surrounded by "his" team.
Cheeny is your real precident.

[Beam Me Up]

30. I agree. W is just a place holder for his clan--and their fascist con-

nections to big money and oil.

Edit: and drugs and munitions and . . .

[mikelewis]

40. Bush is Legion

Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He replied, "Legion," because many demons had entered him.
Luke 8:30

Through Bush, many demons speak; Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Condoleeza and the rest of those who have devoted thier lives to this Devil. Thus, since demons speak and act through Bush, his true name must be Legion.

[Digit]

31. IMO you are giving him way too much credit n/t

[mikelewis]

35. How smart does he have to be to follow a script?

"Okay George, one more time, when Andy whispers in your ear, don't show any expression, don't even move for a moment. Sit there as if you're at a tea party and nothing is wrong. In the eyes of the Arab world, this will show strength. Understand? stomp your foot 2 times if you understand."

Hell the could train a horse to do that.

[Jemmons]

37. I am so thrilled and proud to present to you:

The next president of the United States of America:

[hippiechick]

36. Sorry, I think you're giving him too much credit ...

... he wouldn't have had the presence of mind to know that an un-reaction would play well in Baghdad.

He was caught on the loo with his knickers at his ankles, and truly did not know WTF to do, because he's never had to do anything.

[mikelewis]

55. Maybe this a game only guys play...

I haven't goofed around like this for years but when I was younger, I used to play a sort of flinching game with my friends. One of us would pretend to strike the other but not hit them. If they flinched, we'd say "Two for flinching" and then knuckle punch them in the arm, twice. I know it's stupid but that's the sort of ignorant crap guys do when their young and bored. Through negative reinforcement, you learn that flinching is painful. I imagine that Arabs have taken this game to a new level and wove it into their culture. Here in America, real men don't eat quiche. In the Arab world, real men don't flinch.

And you're right by the way, there's no conceivable way Bush could have had the presence of mind to know that an un-reaction would play out in the Arab world. Other considerations would come first, the five fucking W's would have to be answered before he could formulate his reaction appropriately. What the fuck? Who fucking did this? How the fuck did they steal all those damn planes with box cutters? Why the fuck are we still sitting here? Where the hell is my fucking Air Force? Only after resolving most of the five fucking W's, could he have known he needed to show strength to the Arab world because he was about to invade it. Of course by then... "Two for Flinching"

Well, on second thought, there is one other conceivable way he could have had the presence of mind to know that an un-reaction would play out in the Arab world. If he knew that attack was coming, then, maybe he would have thought that this could project the subconscious image to the Arab world that he was a strong leader. It's almost the same thing as when he's out chopping wood and pretending to be a cowboy. He's just selling the same bullshit to a different sucker.

As for giving credit to Bush, that line is busted. I won't give him credit for being a genius but I also won't underestimate the forces that work through him. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Satan; these are all cunning demons who are everything but stupid.

[Lisa]

38. Bush acting as if he'd been conditioned from childhood?

As the person you quoted describes it, the tribal leader was training his son in appropriate mannerisms, from quite an early age. If Bush had spent time in the Middle East, especially as a youngster (say if his parents were there as cultural researchers, businesspeople, or diplomats), he would have had a great deal of exposure to that society, and it could have had an impact on his personality. But there aren't any records of him having visited the Middle East as a child or youth, and no evidence that the Bush family employed Arab nannies in the States. I guess it would be possible to have given him the same kinds of experiences as that boy referred to earlier (though rather difficult to isolate him from American culture). We know that he watched TV and hung around with other American kids while growing up -- and also that his dad was absent a lot on business (and didn't take little George with him). I suppose his mom was ruthless and persistent enough to carry out what amounts to long-term conditioning, but it would have been of a different sort from the "adult immersion" described above, since she didn't have access to the same sorts of meetings. (George W. at the local garden club? Somehow I don't think so ...)


I guess that there could have been certain traits in his subculture (wealthy WASP prep-school types) which might have looked a bit similar to the "Saladin" response. (Does the American WASP aristocracy have the "stiff upper lip" thing like their British counterparts?)

But if the whole thing was not a subconscious act on his part, but a conscious response -- this would assume that, at some time in his past, he had the inclination (or was obliged) to learn an "appropriate" response which would be consistent with an Arab chief-in-training. The thought of Bush trying to pass himself off as one of them is kind of weird, since anyone from that culture would know immediately that he wasn't from there. Not only are people from other places not expected to "pass", but the insiders may have definite ideas about how they feel foreigners ought to behave -- and this may not involve mimicking them. I don't claim to be an authority on the Middle East, but commentators like Edward Said criticized Western "orientalists" for using their knowledge to act superior to both western and eastern cultures. Parallel sitution: if someone moves into your town and starts pretending that s/he is now qualified to show you how things are done -- my guess is that a lot of "old-timers" would find this either irritating or amusing.

So if this is indeed the case, and Bush was "acting Arab" for an overseas audience -- he must be more mixed up than I thought! Especially since it would conflict visibly with his "John Wayne" image, where he's spent years presenting himself to US voters as being ordinary, and even somewhat emotional (for example, those times when he's gotten teary-eyed over being "a loving guy"). As you noted in the last two paragraphs, it's not consistent.

There's always Occam's Razor -- Bush's sitting there, seeming not to react, could also be explained by his just not knowing what to do in a situation which he himself didn't think would happen (since he wasn't eager to learn about terrorism when he had the chance). We kind of saw a similar thing when Katrina hit and he just kept on doing what everyone was telling him to do ... he didn't spring into action on his own initiative. And in that case, I don't think the Arabs were watching.

[mikelewis]

41. When the Saudi King came to America...

Bush kissed his cheek, held his hand and walked through a field of panzies. To the Football loving homophobes, this seems like a very limp-wristed thing to do. Why would our President, kiss a dude and then stroll hand in hand into the house? He also didn't seem to act hesitant or uncomfortable in this role, almost as if he had done this many times.

The truth is, he would have done this many times. From a very early age, the Bush Dynasty has had relations with the Saudi Royalty and so he would know what customs to observe in greeting a King. He could also know what makes an Arab man appear brave in a time of danger. If he doesn't, then there are those who could instruct him on how to respond. I seriously doubt that he learned these things from living a life of discipline and obedience but he does have an overwhelming and unhealthy desire to play Mr. Macho.

This explanation only works if he had prior knowledge of what was to happen that day but say only for arguements sake that he did. Say he had read the August 6th PDB and he knew something was going to happen real soon. Maybe he didn't know when but he knew something was going to happen that was catastrophic and would include projecting an immediate image of strength to the ruling Arab class.

From what little we know of Bush, we can deduce that a show of bravery would be very important to him. He desires to appear strong among his freinds and his freinds were not always Americans. If he had a suspicion that the country may be in danger from Islamic Terrorists, then he would want to show them a sign of strength. So he either had to have had the "Don't flinch" reaction ingrained in his upbringing or he wasn't surprised and this was an act. The natural reaction of any animal is to flinch at the unexpected, unless of course they are trained not to or the event is not unexpected.

This is further compounded by the failure of our Secret Service to flinch. Logic would dictate that the President of the United States would be considered a target and appropriate actions would have immediately taken place. He would have been whisked off camera while he was apprised of the current situation. This did not happen. What did happen is that no one flinched and that seems a rather strange occurance for a room full of Americans.

[TheBaldyMan]

50. if Israel had the oil instead of Saudi Arabia

he would be singing Hava Nagila, that doesn't prove anything. With amount of money the Saudis have no wonder they're 'friends of the family' and Osama's still at large.

[BikeWriter]

39. The look was fear. He was afraid he'd be held accountable.

[mikelewis]

49. If he was afraid of that, he wouldn't have done it...

To be accountable would mean that he had something to account for. It would mean that he is somehow responsible to a certain degree. If he was afraid of accountability at that moment then that would suggest complicity. People don't plan crimes believing they're going to get caught and they don't perform crimes of this magnitude unless they are sure they won't get caught. They also usually have back-up plans just in case something goes terribly wrong, like say one of the planes gets shot down and they have one more building they need to implode. They need to have something in the hopper don't they? What if the public got wise to the scheme, what if the explosives in the buildings didn't go off, what if someone talks and the media defects from Bushworld? Those backup plans are insurance against catastrophe and they have a lot of insurance. If Bush was afraid, he wouldn't have done it.

[BikeWriter]

53. You forget * has always failed, then been he's rescued...

by his Daddy. This time he's finally being held accountable by Americans. The corporate media could only convince the majority for so long.

[mikelewis]

54. It ain't over yet...

Getting rid of Bush doesn't necessarily rid us of the puppet-masters. Plucking Bush from our eye will be the first step but that's not "Mission Accomplished". It's a far cry from it in fact. Besides, we haven't even completed the first step. We've merely slowed the beast, we haven't stopped it.

[BikeWriter]

57. That;'s true, but his deeds can't be undone...

the rivers are still rising, and there are leaks in the dam!

[mikelewis]

59. No, thank goodness they can never be undone...

I pray that the memory of this miserable human lives long in history of men. Let him serve as a warning to all the people of the world that should they forget that they are free, they will soon find a con-man to convince them they never was free.

[TheBaldyMan]

42. Bush = Saladin ??? wtf

Bush could have been paralysed by stupidity and laziness as well, what do you think is more likely? To suggest that fuckwit has ever uses more neurons than it takes to read off an autocue or order a drink is stretching credibility.

Saladin was a very experienced general, politically astute and the founder of a dynasty.

Bush is a trained monkey who makes Dan Quayle look like a genius with nerves of steel.

[mikelewis]

47. Bush is not Bush...

The President that you see is a marionette of sorts. His actions are choreographed and his very words are fed to him. He rules with talking points that his propaganda ministers believe will have the greatest impact and these things are choreographed down to even his posture. There's no doubt that he's a terrible puppet but he is a puppet nonetheless.

When you see Bush sitting in that chair while our nation was under attack, you are not watching his reaction, that is irrelevant. As the puppet, he only gives us what others think will manipulate us. He is not in control, he is merely a dummy. So when you see Bush sitting in that chair, not flinching, there are only two options. Either the puppet masters were surprised and they simply didn't pull his strings or they were not surprised and they simply didn't want to pull his strings. His thoughts at the time he was told are irrelevant because he was not in command. Those who were in command chose to leave him sitting, unflinching in a schoolhouse in Florida.

If he was frightened or furious, confused or pensive, complicit or retarded, those states have no bearing on the actions that should have taken place regardless of how he felt or what he thought. The Secret Service is charged with protecting the President and their inaction at a time where action is expected seems illogical. Just as 4 Arabs standing calmly staring at an unexploded mortar round seems illogical but it is explainable. If the Secret Service was ordered not to respond, this would explain their inaction but not the reasoning behind it. If they failed to act due to surprise, this would also explain their inaction but hardly seems plausible. Bush freezing up for 7 minutes is plausible but the Secret Service also freezing up seems implausible.

So you are right, he was paralyzed just as a dummy is paralyzed and incapable of action. Bush may just be a "trained monkey who makes Dan Quayle look like a genius with nerves of steel" but his handlers are ruthless and wicked. What message were they trying to send by having puppet George sit, unflinching for 7 minutes? If you think them incapable of understanding the art of persuasion then you have not been paying attention.

[TheBaldyMan]

51. stick Dubya in a field then lob some dud mortars shells at him

if he remains calm and motionless while everyone but arab sheiks scatter for cover I'll believe you but until then he's a cowardly deserter and an affront to those poor bastards getting shot at in Iraq.

[mikelewis]

60. How odd that you'd only believe a contradiction...

Bush is not intelligent enough to come up with this reaction on his own. Everyone knows that. So if this is not a conditioned reaction, he will not be prepared to act his Arab-Cowboy role. Thus we know he would shit himself and run away. It's what any true God-fearing American would do. So to get you to believe it, I have to contradict all evidence that Bush is an idiot. I'm not prepared to do that, maybe Johnnie Cockran could do such things but not I.

But don't you find it odd that you'd only be willing to believe a contradiction? You see Bush sit unflinching in that chair and just accept that he acted ignorantly and/or fearfully. But that too is a contradiction, it's a contradiction to survival instincts. If he was terrified, he would have surrounded himself with the Secret Service. If they were terrified, they would have surrounded him. Which one acts according to nature? The Secret Service is conditioned to defy instictive self-preservation instructions. The President is conditioned to protect himself no matter how stupid or gutless he may be. Yet, in this instance, nature is defied. Neither party acts according to thier instincts. Bush doesn't move to safety and the Secret Service doesn't move to protect him. Yet you believe this contradiction. I find that fascinating.

[TheBaldyMan]

62. dear mike

you assume that everyone shares your view unless they 'believe' something contradictory. This is arrogamt in the extreme. I call it how I see it, you want to go down the conspiracy nut route you are free to do so, I happily remain sceptical. Either this entire thread is designed for your entertainment, in that case it should properly be moved to the DU lounge, or you are giving far too much credit to Bush. I don't think anyone could disprove all evidence the Bush is an idiot, he seems to stack up evidence faster than it can be disproved, if it can be disproved. In short - he is an idiot. I wish I could say the lack of SS agents rushing in and bundling him into a limo troubles me but it doesn't. This administration's track record of deferring to experience is lamentable and various. Why in 6 years of criminal incompetence, arrogance and stupidity you suddenly pick out a few incidents as indicators that there was a secret plan all along is less than persuavsive.

If you want to respond to this post please do so but be aware that I am not likely to be convinced by any argument that bears any relation to the ones previously presented. I will be unlikely to reply.

[mikelewis]

64. All I've offered was a possible...

explanation for an event that seems contradictory. I opened the topic up for discussion and I have followed the rules of DU. If the moderators wish to tombstone any of my posts, they have reserved the right to do so. You are also welcome to alert them and inform them that I am posting topics for my entertainment. I'm not sure how they'll respond but as this post is not locked or tombstoned as of yet, I assume they may cut me a little slack. You can also ignore my posts if you wish and pretend that you have leveled logical arguements and that I am just some ignorant wacko conspiracy nut; though of course if this post had in fact reflected that, it probably wouldn't exist.

Whether or not you have any questions about 9/11 is irrelevant to the point of my post. You pretend that there is no contradictions with Bush's un-reactions and yet you can offer no logical explanation for his inaction. You say he's simply an ignorant rube who collapsed in fear but there is no idication of that at all in this instance. There was no facial expression or change in demeanor, it was as if Card had whispered the time in his ear. And for 7 or more minutes, he continued to sit expressionless and alone while his country, his charge was under attack. You believe this is logical? If you do, then you are right, there is no way I would even try and convince you that Bush had prior knowledge of 9/11. But I will say this... Don't think of an elephant. Don't think about it's long trunk or it's huge floppy ears, it's long tusks curving in front of it. Don't think about it, wipe the picture from your mind. Think about, that even after 66 years, there will be those who want to talk about elephants. Even if we have to be sneaky to do it.

[TheBaldyMan]

68. Occam's Razor says you are mistaken

Your argument is as full of holes as the justification that GWB didn't go AWOL from the Texas Air National Guard. Remember all the bits of paper that proved he had gone AWOL bar one or two that had been fabricated. I am citing every dumb thing GW has done since 2000 as evidence that he is a stupid man, you are tying together the most tenuous of threads to say he's a closet genius.

I'd also use Occam's Razor to explain his lack of emotion while America was attacked. He is a son of privilege, an aristocrat with a documented history of hauteur towards what he regards as the lower orders. We as lesser then he. He didn't express any emotion because he wasn't feeling any. Although he would have shed real tears when he found out an oil executive or billionaire was among the dead.

Compare Bush Jr. to Bill Clinton, I know it must be painful to an American to be reminded of a real politician as Head of State. President Clinton's plane touches down at an airport with a mechanical fault. During the break he finds that two transports of returning GI's are returning from Iraq. Bill goes to meet them off the plane, no script, no stage management, no backdrop. He gives an account of himself that proves he is the real deal. How would GWB have coped in an identical situation, no screened audience, no backdrop, no priming.

btw I won't even get into the prior knowledge thing and I don't understand the elephant spiel.

[mikelewis]

74. 2+2=5

If I were to say to you that 2+2=5, you would of course think me ignorant, would you not? Two and two can never equal five. You have a choice to either simply believe that I am a fool or you can reason that based on our conversation that I either misspoke or that I failed to make my meaning clear.

Now, if I were to say to you that I had 4 containers (2 red and 2 blue) that each held 1.25 liters of pop and when I combined the red and the blue, the 2 + 2, I could and do get 5 liters of pop. With out context, anyone can appear ignorant.

This is why you do not understand the elephant spiel and also why you fail to see the truth that sits, unflinching, staring you in the face. If you grab a snake and hold it in your grasp, which one of you is the captive? You might say that the snake is the captive but in truth, both of you are held just as tightly; for the second you let go of the snake, it may bite you. It's you're fear that holds you to the snake until you discover a way to set him safely free, whether or not that means one of you should die.

You came to this post to deride and to mock, not to engage in intelligent debate. When I say to you 2 + 2 = 5, you scoff at that proposition because it goes against your bias. You believe one thing and that is all you are willing to believe. You have set limits on the truth and you are held by them just as tightly as they to you. This is why you failed to understand my elephant spiel and why you incorrectly based your objection to my posts on Occam's Razor.

Occam's Razor is not a machete by which you hack you're way through a debate. It's a tool by which you slowly shave off contradictions until the face below the beard becomes clear. If I were to use it in the context you speak, I would be cutting off my nose to reveal my face. But all this is irrelevant anyway, I only wished to talk about an elephant. It's just sad that some people grow so offended when I do.

[SPKrazy]

43. Bush didn't say this, did he?

from the OP

"I heard you, and the people who detonated the explosives in these buildings are going to hear from all of us soon."

If he really said that, then we've all missed the boat! Forget the planes, let's find those who detonated the explosives!

[mikelewis]

45. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to spot that...

That was a freudian typo... Sorry, my bad.

[SPKrazy]

46. Damned! I thought we had him!

and we had all just missed it!

[mikelewis]

48. Sorry, Bush didn't say that....

but Larry Silverstien did, sort of. Look up Silvertein "pull it" on google. He's not the President but he's pretty important especially since we paid him $7 billion.

[No Exit]

56. Fuck Larry Silverstein

(Isn't he the one who wanted the towers torn down? The, um, owner/insured?)

Leave "detonated" in. Why not? The Bushevics lie to us HOURLY. Why should WE be so careful of wording and facts, when they allow their "mistakes" to stay out there long enough for people to adopt them as supposed truth?

[mikelewis]

58. We must never question 9/11.

There is one rule about 9/11, there are no questions. If you live by that, the story lives. If you break it, it's High Noon. Suffice to say, google "Larry Silverstien pull it" and all will be revealed.

[No Exit]

61. Well, then...

I do not know what fate awaits me,
I only know I must be brave,
And I must face a man who hates me,
Or lie a coward,
A craven coward,
Or lie a coward in my grave!

SILVERSTEIN! PLANNED DEMOLITION! SILVERSTEIN! PLANNED DEMOLITION!

:)

[CJCRANE]

63. I don't buy it.

I just don't get why the two men with the most power to affect the situation (* and Rumsfeld) did nothing while the rest of the world ran to their TVs, phones, computers to find out WTF was going on.

It indicates to me that either * knew (vaguely) what was going down and wanted to look inconspicuous while it played out OR the guy has no real power so his staff just let him sit there while Cheney took command of the situation.

[mikelewis]

65. How do you know Rummy did nothing?

He claims he was sitting in his office unaware and yet we have no proof. We must accept his word that he was unaware. We must also accept his word that they've been doing everything they can to protect the soldiers and yet we find out that's not true. We must accept his word as truth when he says the intelligence was faulty and not rigged but we must not accept his word when he states that Flight 93 had been shot down. So how do we really know what Rummy was doing for the hour or so that he had before something surprisingly struck the side of the Pentagon?

He could have been giving an intern the cigar treatment and just really didn't care. He could have been whacked out on crystal meth and just didn't know. He could have been castrating a lamb or turning off the Pentagon security and defense systems and video camera recorders.

He could have been doing a lot of different things, but, he says he didn't know. I can accept that, what other choice do I have. It's uncivilized to question it.

[ima_sinnic]

66. wrong. he sat there b/c he didn't know what the f**k to do.

my interpretation of "that look" is he's thinking: "omg, they really did do it" (knowing "something" was going to happen and "this" must be "it").
Any real leader, after the 1st crash, would have excused himself with the reasonable and sincere reason that he had to find out what was going on--he is after all the "president" (*cough cough*)--any COMPETENT LEADER would want to know IMMEDIATELY if the nation was in danger, if the citizens were in danger, and, if so, WHAT S/HE COULD DO IN RESPONSE.

The exact same thing as with Katrina. Sheesh, it makes me SO SICK to think how even I, an average American, could have and would have WANTED TO save thousands of lives by acting even before the storm hit, had I had the entire mighty might of the US at my disposal. The dumbass even had more than 24 hrs warning before that, which he can CLAIM he didn't have before 9/11 (as if anybody still believes THAT crock of bullshit).

[mikelewis]

67. Could Bush's...

inaction during Katrina seem logical? You seem far too willing to accept the improbable.

If your vacuum cleaner stops working, would you believe someone who told you it was merely sleeping? Of course you wouldn't, it makes no sense and is obviously a lie. When I hear you say that there was some concievable way that Bush didn't know the extent of the damage during Katrina, I hear, "Your vacuums only sleeping, sir. If it doesn't wake up one day after the warranty expires bring it back in and we'll give you a full refund." That is inconcievable to me . And yet, the Aztecs believed that in order to make the sun rise they needed to feed still-beating hearts into a fire. So when people say they believe Bush could have not known Katrina had wiped out the south, it does not surprise me.

[Doohickie]

69. Another explanation for Bush's behavior:

NARF!

[mikelewis]

71. Now that makes more sense than anything I've come across....

Only I would have guessed it was Pain and Panic.

[mikelewis]

72. Now that makes more sense than anything I've come across..

Only I would have guessed it was Pain and Panic.

[rooboy]

73. * did nothing because he thought it was someone else's problem.

Like everything else in his shitty little life, he just runs away to Crawford (or in this case Florida) and expects one of his father's friends, a handler, a GOP big shot or a business buddy to bail him out. He was oblivious to the idea that he was part of the 'leadership' on that day - as king, hijackings and collapsing buildings are things that the commoners think about.

The only reason he's out giving speeches now with such regularity is because he finally realizes that America thinks he's a JOKE.

[mikelewis]

75. I don't think America thinks he's a joke...

The joke was over the second the Supreme Court issued their ruling in Gore V. Bush. If you believe he is as ignorant as you say, do you believe those around him are equally ignorant? Is Andy Card a mindless zombie incapable of anything close to rational thought? Are all of the secret service just simpletons incapable of tying their shoes? When you talk about Bush, you incorrectly remove any outside influence.

We can agree that the President of the United States is classified as a terrorist target, yes? The Secret Service is charged with protecting him from any and all danger. Unless the Secret Service was ordered not to remove the President from possible danger, we are left with the alternative that they either did not know he was in danger or that they made the conscious choice to leave him in danger. The possibility that they did not know is debunked by Andy Card when he informs the President we are under attack. The President neither spoke nor indicated in anyway an order of any kind so why would the Secret Service leave him in an exposed and poorly defensible position? They could not have known the nature nor the scale of the attacks so they had no way of knowing if yet another plane was targeting the President. So why did they fail to do their jobs when the only person with the authority to halt them gave no order to do so?

[nomatrix]

76. You could be onto something, but

your post date:

General Discussion
Thursday January 12

Still there
today

Saturday
January 14

speaks louder.

I'm sorry to say.

[mikelewis]

78. When it speaks...

what is it saying?