Hayden's bid will put Bush's warrantless wiretapping under oath

[bigtree]

before the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Should be interesting.

[originalpckelly]

1. I have never been so happy in my whole life...

That is the only reason Hoekstra doesn't like Hayden. Hayden manages that program. Should be interesting just like you said.

[robbedvoter]

2. Is the CIA director confirmed by the Senate?

[bigtree]

7. the Senate approved Porter Goss as CIA director by a vote of 77 to 17

[Initech]

3. So when Bush commits perjury, will that be grounds for impeachment?

:popcorn:

[robbedvoter]

23. Perjury is NOT the ONLY ground for impeachment.

High crimes and misdemeanors - such as lying to congress in the State of the Union adress, sabotaging national security (Plame), ignoring laws (wiretapping &750+) would do nicely.

[Initech]

27. Yeah, but I'm using Clinton's impeachment as an example

It wasnt lying about a blowjob, it was lying about a blowjob UNDER OATH. So if Bush lies about anything on those same grounds, couldnt we nail him for that?

[robbedvoter]

30. This is trivializing W's crimes. he broke laws, committed treason.

Comparing him to Clinton - or any other president in our history meand we fail to grasp the magnitude of the transgression.

[Lerkfish]

4. unless they pull an Arlen Specter and not require swearing in... in fact,

I predict that's exactly what they do, for "national security reasons".

[bigtree]

5. I think that would cause an explosion

not smart politics, anyway

who knows with that bunch? I'd flip out.

[OregonBlue]

14. When they don't require him to "swear to tell the truth" all dem members

just stand up, protest and walk out with "THIS IS A SHAM AND WE REFUSE TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS OBVIOUS ATTEMPT BY THE REPUBLICAN MEMBERS TO AVOID YOUR RESPONSIBLITY UNDER THE CONSTITUTION!!

[redqueen]

19. Dems Standing Up?

Please, please let this happen... a lot... and soon. It may be too late already.

[OregonBlue]

21. I don't think it's too late. There are many months until the elections

and dems can make one hell of a lot of noise between now and then!!

[bigtree]

22. I like that energy!

:kick:

[redqueen]

24. Sorry... not just talking about elections.

Just the country in general... I suppose I'm getting ahead of myself worrying about the Enron-ed economy.

[Lerkfish]

17. With this bunch, I just assume the most depraved immoral act and they

never have disappointed

[me b zola]

16. That was my first thought, there'll be no swearing in.

"national security reasons" = their go to excuse for secrecy and law breaking.

[ginnyinWI]

6. Hayden should be sitting in prison

along with the rest of this cabal. They came to him and asked him to break the FISA laws, and he should have resigned. Instead, he said ,"sure thing, boss."

[bigtree]

9. I think we can hit them harder on the spying with witnesses and such

this time.

They might get more evidence to impeach from Hayden's testimony.

[originalpckelly]

8. People no swearing in is required for him to commit a crime by lying...

Read:
"18 U.S.C. § 1001. Statements or entries generally
Release date: 2005-08-03

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b) Subsection (a) does not apply to a party to a judicial proceeding, or that party’s counsel, for statements, representations, writings or documents submitted by such party or counsel to a judge or magistrate in that proceeding.
(c) With respect to any matter within the jurisdiction of the legislative branch, subsection (a) shall apply only to—
(1) administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a matter related to the procurement of property or services, personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to the Congress or any office or officer within the legislative branch; or
(2) any investigation or review, conducted pursuant to the authority of any committee, subcommittee, commission or office of the Congress, consistent with applicable rules of the House or Senate."

[bigtree]

11. is that a misdemeanor?

would there be any more jeopardy though if sworn in?

[originalpckelly]

20. It carries the exact same penalty as if you lied under oath...

This another reason why Bush should be impeached. It is also why I think Arlen Specter may not be as bad as we think. He was actually right during the Feb. 6 NSA hearings.

"18 U.S.C. § 1621. Perjury generally
Release date: 2005-08-03

Whoever—
(1) having taken an oath before a competent tribunal, officer, or person, in any case in which a law of the United States authorizes an oath to be administered, that he will testify, declare, depose, or certify truly, or that any written testimony, declaration, deposition, or certificate by him subscribed, is true, willfully and contrary to such oath states or subscribes any material matter which he does not believe to be true; or
(2) in any declaration, certificate, verification, or statement under penalty of perjury as permitted under section 1746 of title 28, United States Code, willfully subscribes as true any material matter which he does not believe to be true;
is guilty of perjury and shall, except as otherwise expressly provided by law, be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. This section is applicable whether the statement or subscription is made within or without the United States."

You can be sent to prison or fined for the same amount of time/money for both laws. So it really doesn't matter if the swearing in is done. The only reason they still do it is for tradition.

[Justice Is Comin]

29. I don't know what we have to do

to get people to understand that.

Swearing in is symbolic. It is most critical and almost mandatory in courts. But lies before Congress or to federal investigators have a whole different umbrella of bad nasty consequences for anybody who lies.

And it is MUCH less difficult to prove than perjury. Perjury is MUCH, MUCH, much more difficult. That's why the "false statements" statute is used 18 times more frequently than perjury.

[lyonn]

18. Makes sense, when a person testifies before Congress

especially when they are employed by our govt., that anything they said would be required to be truthful. Thanks for the law.

[Zen Democrat]

10. I dunno. It's going to be in front of Pat Roberts committee.

Pat will make certain the Senate Intelligence Committee plays ball.

[bigtree]

13. and Leahy will be certain to challenge him.

Who are the pug mavericks on that committee? I'm being lazy here.

[bigtree]

28. Rockefeller

Jay Rockefeller, not Leahy

[Beelzebud]

12. Unless he's a recess appointment.

And with the amount of time these lazy bastards are off, there will be plenty of opportunities for that...

[bigtree]

15. wow

that's not out of question

[redqueen]

25. It's pretty much business as usual with this gang. n/t

[Sydnie]

26. Hayden's speech to the press club replaying now on

C-SPAN 1.