Why Illegal Immigration is NOT a Civil Rights Issue -->

[Dr. Jones]

In recent days, some here on DU have likened illegals to civil rights activists. But can this comparison really be made? Consider the following comparisons made by fellow DU'ers:

1. Illegals are self-serving to improve conditions not for U.S. society at large but for their own group. Civil disobedience is selfless for a greater cause to improve our society at large for generations to come.
   
   
2. Illegals are trying not to get arrested because they don't want our government to discover their illegal status. Those engaged in civil disobedience make it their goal to get arrested to call attention to their cause.
   
   
3. llegals crossed our borders not to protest immoral laws but to ostensibly to make a better life for themselves (not to mention that a certain percentage of illegals crossing the border are potential terrorists, drug dealers, gang members, and hardened criminals). Civil disobedience calls U.S. citizens to protest immoral laws and political policy for the greater good of society.
   
   
4. Illegals are illegal all the time in a constant state of illegality, and that is their permanent status. Those engaging in civil disobedience are U.S. citizens who do ocassionally break the law for moral reasons to change that which is immoral in our society.
   
   
5. Illegals disappear into society and never call attention to their illegal status. Those engaged in civil disobedience openly and publically display their disobedience in order to make a point that certain laws are immoral.
   
   
6. Illegals have no "human right" to cross our borders. Because they are in our country illegally and are not U.S. citizens, they have no rights under our Constitution. Those engaged in civil disobedience have every right under our Constitution to freely assemble to protest immoral laws and policies.
   

Based on the evidence presented, one has no choice but to conclude that illegal immigration and civil disobedience are mutually exclusive.

What do you think?

[elehhhhna]

1. Evidentaly they are not mutually exclusive...

safety in numbers, imo.

[benburch]

2. I think you are full of malarky.

“The New Colossus”

by Emma Lazarus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

[Dr. Jones]

3. That presupposes LEGAL citizenship.

Go back and read your history books. They're NOT talking about ILLEGALS here. They're taking about LEGAL immigrants.

[peace13]

5. I agree

For some reason it is unpopular to say that if immigrants come to the United States they need to follow the legal process. What other country on the planet permits this kind of activity? If the process is flawed and Americans are concerned, work to correct it. Enough said. Peace, Kim

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr. Jones]

9. Can we please move past the racist/xenophobic accusations and FOCUS...

on our current immigration policies and how they need to be changed (most here on DU agree they need to be changed one way or the other).

As for your Liberty argument, yes, it DOES in fact presuppose LEGAL immigration. That's why we have laws on the books. Our country and economy simply cannot sustain an open border policy where everyone can come here from every country and get citizenship. We'd be overrun. Our hospitals, education systems, state & local governments are ALREADY strained, imagine if we carte blanche opened the doors to EVERYONE.

[benburch]

11. Immigration can only strengthen us.

And it is xenophobic and racist to oppose it. You can spin that how you like, but nobody opposed the immigrants from the Soviet Bloc Countries during the cold war, no matter HOW they got here, because they were WHITE.

[Dr. Jones]

20. Is it racist to say some blacks are now siding with the Minutemen?

Is it xenophobic to stand up for the American worker whose jobs are being taken by lower-paid illegals and the companies who hire them?

This racist/xenophobic argument, in my opinion, is dead.

[benburch]

25. Legalize them all.

And then there is no problem with illegals making sub-minimum wages.

It is the EMPLOYERS who are the problem here. Not the WORKERS.

Preamble to the IWW Constitution

The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of the working people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life.

Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the means of production, abolish the wage system, and live in harmony with the Earth.

We find that the centering of the management of industries into fewer and fewer hands makes the trade unions unable to cope with the ever growing power of the employing class. The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers.

These conditions can be changed and the interest of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all its members in any one industry, or in all industries if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lockout is on in any department thereof, thus making an injury to one an injury to all.

Instead of the conservative motto, "A fair day's wage for a fair day's work," we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, "Abolition of the wage system."

It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for everyday struggle with capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old.

http://www.iww.org/

[Dr. Jones]

32. Do that, sit back, and watch our entire economy and social services CRASH

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. Oh give me a break

Now you are sounding like one of the war mongers who say we have to fight terrorism over there to keep them from coming over here.

[Bridget Burke]

101. Our economy & social services are already crashing.

Let's blame it on the "illegals" rather than the policies of Bush & his cronies.

[proud2BlibKansan]

107. Excellent point Bridget!

And one I have tried in vain to make here many many times.

Here's an idea - let's let this issue tear the RW apart, sit back and enjoy the show?

[Dr. Jones]

143. Well, hehe, you WON'T find me saying THAT...

because I believe since Bush has refused to police our borders, thousands of potential terrorists have already infiltrated our country, gotten into position, and are simply awaiting orders. Maybe so, maybe not, but the excuse that "we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here" is very short-sighted. And didn't Cheney say once that if we have a new Dem leadership, we'd get more terror attacks? These idiots stop at nothing!

Ehem, back to the main topic.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

174. LOL

You are a braver soul than me, Ben.

[Dr. Jones]

192. You missed the point completely, my friend.

Free Republic?

[hiley]

260. not

funny

[IndyJones]

266. CA is well on their way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. No one is opposing European immigrants either

And the current law favors them. It is nearly impossible for Hispanics to come here legally. Why is the inequity in the immigration law never brought up??

[Sterling]

146. I think people oppose illegal euro imigration.

Yet I don't see an army or europeans swiming across the atlantic and working for $2 an hour?

[suffragette]

219. I don't see an "army" coming here from anywhere

What a provocative word choice.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

257. Are you seriously trying to suggest

That all those opposed to illegal immigration are racist and/or xenophobic?

I would suggest that that's a case you'll find it very difficult indeed to support, and I don't see how the claim "it is xenophobic and racist to oppose it" can be taken to mean anything weaker than that.

[Walt Disney]

280. Immigration can only strengthen us...?

Tell that to the American Indian.

[AZBlue]

319. There's a HUGE difference between immigrating & being here illegally

I am a fervent supporter of the first and think it should actually be a bit easier. I'm just as fervently opposed to the second and think we should be much tougher on the criminals who come here, those who help them come here illegally, and those who hire, aid and abet them.

[Coexist]

15. Political refugees are much different than economic refugees

Come on now. And I am NOT racist, thank you. Stop calling names. It is rude and does not further the discussion.

[noamnety]

30. More and more I see them as the same thing. (nt)

[Coexist]

42. How?

Illegal aliens from Mexico, if caught, can go home and pick up their lives where they left off.

Political refugees, if returned home, find their property seized, and are often can be imprisoned and tortured. Often the only thing that keeps a political refugee from fleeing in the first place is the threat of real, physical harm to their families if they leave.

If they refuse to give up thier beliefs while in their country of origin, they can be imprisoned and tortured to be made "examples of."

I cannot believe that someone hoping for a better life economically, and someone fleeing a brutal, repressive regime are the same thing. Ever.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/political...

Seeking Refugee Immigration Status vs. Political Asylum
People already located in the United States who are afraid of being persecuted by their home countries are eligible to apply for political asylum. Those who wish to come to the United States due to fear of persecution by their home countries, and apply while they are still outside the United States are considered eligible for refugee immigration status.

What U.S. Agency Decides Political Asylum and Refugee Issues?
Before September 2002, the agency that was charged with overseeing immigration issues was the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS). In September 2002, Congress passed and President Bush signed the Homeland Security Act, transferring the powers of the INS to the Department of Homeland Security. The immigration service functions of the INS are now placed under the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services (BCIS).

Seeking Political Asylum or Refugee Immigration Status in the United States
Political asylum and refugee immigration status are available to people who reside in the United States because they fear persecution or have experienced persecution in their homeland. Individuals seeking political asylum or refugee immigration status must fear that their home country may persecute them, or has persecuted them, because of:
Race
Nationality
Religion
Membership in a certain social group.
Economic suffering is not included as a reason for which the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services may grant political asylum or refugee status in the United States.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Starvation and homelessness are rather bad

situations to return to, don't ya think?

[Coexist]

81. I don't know which news you get, but all of the "human interest" stories

on why people cross the border that I have seen have shown people living in poverty, but not starving and homeless.

Many of them cross back and forth a couple times a year. They work a season, then go home. They all had homes, with extended families that spoke openly about why they crossed the border.

I have never seen the distended bellies and gutter living that I have seen in stories located in areas where there is mass starvation. Honestly. I am not being cruel, I have never visited any of these places, so I have to go on what I am shown, and I am shown poverty typical of many 3rd world countries, but not starvation and homelessness.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. How many of these people do you actually know?

I know lots of them. They would much rather not have to come here. The stories of how they live in their native countries are heartbreaking. Just because the media hasn't told those stories doesn't mean they aren't true. Surely you don't trust the MSM to give you the whole story here?

I guess you also don't realize that a distended belly is not necessary to indicate starvation or sickness. We had a 12 year old girl here almost die of kidney failure last year. Her belly wasn't distended and yes, she was desperately ill. Finding health care for her was a nightmare.

[Coexist]

100. As I said, I have not visited any of these countries

I just go by the stories I see.

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. I go by what the immigrants actually tell me

and I have visited Mexico many times. The standard of living is very different from here.

[Coexist]

138. Never mind.

[Sterling]

108. The CNN special I watched featured a very hefty family.

As fat as any obese Americans we see on a regular basis.

[Coexist]

113. A lot of poor are overweight because cheap food is often

very unhealthy, laden with calories and fat.

That is not a very good argument. Sorry.

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. So being obese means you aren't starving?

That's news to me. I guess it has nothing to do with inadequate nutrition.

[Sterling]

148. Yes if you are fat you have enough to eat

Eating the right things? That is another topic altogether. If we have to argue over fat people=starving people there is really no point discuaaing anything with you as we could end up arguing over the flatness/roundness of the world it appears from your perspective of things.

[proud2BlibKansan]

151. LOL

Sleep through health class??

[Sterling]

106. Starvation and homelessness

Of course we don't have any of that here do we?

[proud2BlibKansan]

131. So that gives us the right to ignore it elsewhere?

How about this idea - let's make the repukelicans in charge of the USA actually fund programs that HELP people instead of spending our tax dollars bombing other countries?

[noamnety]

175. Here's how they are the same

The economic conditions of a country are woven in so tightly with the political systems that you can't neatly separate them. Oppression is oppression, no matter what form it takes.

[AlphaCentauri]

293. Of course Political Refugee and Poverty Refugee are not the same

Political Refugees get all the benefits of any American Citizen instantly, while poverty Refugees are not entitle to most of the social services.






Take One

Wednesday, February 4, 2004 Posted: 10:04 AM EST (1504 GMT)
MIAMI, Florida (AP) -- Cuban migrants fashioned a boat out of a 1951 Chevy pickup truck and "drove" it to within 40 miles (64 kilometers) of the United States before they were spotted, taken off and returned to the island, the U.S. Coast Guard said Wednesday.

The Cubans were returned Sunday, Doss said. Under U.S. law, Cubans who reach U.S. shores are allowed to stay while those caught at sea are usually returned.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/07/23/offbeat.cu... /

Take two

Monday, February 9, 2004 Posted: 8:04 PM EST (0104 GMT)
MIAMI (AP) -- Two Cubans who tried to sail to Florida in a truck converted to a pontoon boat last year are making another attempt, this time piloting a seagoing 1950s-era Buick with four other adults and five children, relatives said.

Marciel Basanta Lopez and Luis Grass Rodriguez, who were sent back to Cuba in July after they failed to reach Florida in a converted 1951 Chevrolet pickup, were at the helm of the newest vehicle-boat conversioldren. The car is very safe."

The Coast Guard refused on Wednesday to confirm the status of the tail finned car or the origin of photos of it in the water that were broadcast on television Tuesday. U.S. policy prevents the disclosure of information on such cases until they are resolved, such as by sending the participants back to their home countries, Petty Officer Sandra Bartlett said.


Take three

Mar. 22, 2005
Last week, Grass' third and successful attempt was by land, crossing the U.S. border with Mexico. Still, the ingenious and persistent Grass and his family said they hit some rough terrain.

''Trying to cross the Florida Straits on my floating cars was easier, I can tell you that,'' Grass, 36, said Monday at his attorney's office, where he and his wife, Isora, 27, described the final leg of their journey to the United States. ``We encountered a million problems.''

[Bridget Burke]

16. LEGAL citizenship? There is no such thing as ILLEGAL citizenship.

Perhaps you mean legal residency in the US? That residency that was granted so easily when my grandparents came over but now enriches immigration lawyers?

I really haven't seen much "civil disobedience" in the protests--but civil disobedience is usually a protest against the "laws on the books."

The racist/xenophobic accusations just keep coming up, for some reason. Fear of being "overrun"?

Poor baby.

[Dr. Jones]

23. You caught me...

good call, I did change it to "legal immigration." I had a redundancy there with "legal citizenship."

Fear of being overrun? Do you discount the possibility that radical elements have taken leadership in the pro-illegal-immigration ranks?

[Bridget Burke]

41. Please--let me know which "radical elements" you suspect.

Ooh--Lou Dobbs is scared: www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/dobbs.immigrantprotests/

I've Googled some other links between immigration & "radical elements"--on the sorts of website that would blow your "we're not xenophobes" argument right out of the water.

[hiley]

86. ANSWER

perhaps


from your link I don't see Lou Dobbs as scared:

<clip>

I'm not opposed to demonstrations and protests of any kind, even by those who are not citizens of this country, because one way or another, demonstrations and protests enrich and invigorate the national debate and raise the public consciousness of truth.

<clip>

ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) has become an active promoter of the national boycott.
Some illegal immigration and open borders activists in the Hispanic community are deeply concerned about the involvement of the left-wing radical group. But others, like Juan Jose Gutierrez, whom I've interviewed a number of times over the past several months, manages to be both director of Latino Movement USA and a representative of ANSWER.

<clip>

"The meat packers are confirming what we know," says University of Maryland economics professor Peter Morici, "and that is that this large group of illegal aliens in the United States is lowering the wage rate of semiskilled workers, people who are high school dropouts or high school graduates with minimal training."

In fact, a meat-packing job paid $19 an hour in 1980, but today that same job pays closer to $9 an hour, according to the Labor Department. That's entirely consistent with what we've been reporting -- that illegal aliens depress wages for U.S. workers by as much as $200 billion a year in addition to placing a tremendous burden on hospitals, schools and other social services.
<clip>
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/dobbs.immigrantprotest... /

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. The workers aren't lowering wages!!

The EMPLOYERS are. Tell any active union member that workers now have the power to control wages and watch him/her jump for joy!! LOL

[hiley]

110. illegals being here are causing

lower wages by undercutting Americans.
Employers should be punished for hiring & then they would stop lowering wages.

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. Why do they come here?

Employers take buses across the border and bring them here. A contractor here in my city pays laborers ONE DOLLAR AN HOUR. WHY?? Because the employers are GREEDY. And when they do get caught, they are either ignored by the govt here or slapped on the wrist with miniscule fines.

The real enemy are the EMPLOYERS, not the workers. They are the victims - both the American workers and the exploited undocumented workers.

[Dr. Jones]

193. Actually very few are taken by buses care of U.S. companies.

Most do sneak across our open southern border. You are misrepesenting the entire nature of the illegal immigration movement. Howver, you are correct that companes are to blame also - and I believe our government should go after these companies who hire the illegals.

[proud2BlibKansan]

195. How about a link to prove your points?

[Bridget Burke]

105. ANSWER?

Gosh, I'm scared. You mean--"Leftists" are involved?

I found the Lou Dobbs link. Do you have any others?

[hiley]

133. UFPJ won't even work with ANSWER any longer on National level

UFPJ Rejects Future Work with ANSWER

Ending the War in Iraq, Building a Broad Movement for Peace and Justice, And Our Experience with A.N.S.W.E.R.

From the Steering Committee, United for Peace and Justice
December 12, 2005

<clip>

As our coalition moves forward, we try to evaluate our experiences in order to strengthen our efforts and overcome our shortcomings. In recent months, a difficult and controversial aspect of our work has been our engagement with International A.N.S.W.E.R in co-sponsoring the September 24, 2005 Washington, D.C. Rally and March. Following this experience, and after thorough discussion, the national steering committee of United for Peace and Justice has decided not to coordinate work with ANSWER again on a national level.

<clip>

Beyond all this, the priority given to negotiating and then trying to carry out an agreement with ANSWER hurt rather than helped galvanize the participation of many other groups and individuals in the September 24 activities. In part this is simply a question of where time and resources were directed. But it also stems from the bridges ANSWER has burned over the years with other broader forces in the progressive movement. Many longtime antiwar and social movement activists – and many groups only recently embracing mass action against the war - have had the same kind of negative experiences with ANSWER that we did in the run-up to, and on September 24. Some people, and some UFPJ member groups, believe this stems from ANSWER’s political and strategic perspectives. Others attribute the problems to what is often called style of work, or to issues about democracy, decision making and control. Whatever the case on this level, co-sponsorship with ANSWER on September 24 was welcomed by some in the antiwar movement but limited or prevented completely the participation of others.

<clip>

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=3162

Did I say leftist?

[Bridget Burke]

184. Please, let us know more about Latino Movement USA....

From a blogger:

"I’d never heard of Latino Movement USA, so I did some checking. They don’t even have their own website. Almost every time they’re mentioned, it’s either by ANSWER or one of their front groups, Dobbs, or the Moonies."

www.liberalavenger.com/2006/05/01/oh-that-sneaky-leftis...

I've never heard of Latino Movement USA, either.

[hiley]

223. Director of Immigrants Rights Organization Latino Movement USA

Director, Latino Movement USA, Gutierrez was an invited guest at the inauguration of new Bolivian president Evo Morales. He discusses the huge changes happening now in Bolivia with this inauguration the first indigenous President in Latin Ameria. In a special pre-inaugural ceremony held in a sacred area, Morales wore native garb and declared the “colonial period was over” as millions watched live on television. Later, he said capitalism was the problem.

Recorded at a PSL Forum in LA 03/10/06

PSL Forum link:
http://socialismandliberation.org /

Bridget go to this link & here at the forum Juan Jose Gutierrez is introduced as
Director of Immigrants Rights Organization Latino Movement USA & ANSWER.
Catch up on your facts, there.
http://polizeros.com/2006/03/11/podcast-juan-jose-gutie... /

MP3 (23:08, 8:05)
http://www.polizerosdata.com/audio/psl/Juan%20Jose%20Gu...

Edit to add:
Juan Jose Gutierrez. Immigration reform, the Minutemen, Real ID, and organizing.
Gutierrez is an expert on immigration reform from Latino Movement USA. He spoke at an ANSWER LA meeting on May 17, 2005. mp3, (26:19, 9.03 MB)
<clip>
Unite to Defeat the Bush Agenda Community Meeting. Sunset Hall Retirement Home. May 7, 2005. mp3, (1:20:55, 27.7 MB)
MP3
http://polizerosdata.com/audio/Sunset-Hall-ANSWERLA-05-...
Speakers:

Louis Duran, Chair SEIU Local 660 Seniors Association; President, Western Region, Alliance of Retired Americans
Margaret Prescod, KPFK Programmer and Global Womens Strike
Hamid Kahn, South Asian Network
Juan Jose Gutierrez, Latino Movement USA
Jim Lafferty, National Lawyers Guild - Los Angeles
Ruth Tadasco, Global Women's Strike - Los Angeles
Christine Araquel, KmB - Pro-People Youth
Muna Coobtee, Free Palestine Alliance
Wendy Caputo, Executive Director, Sunset Hall Retirement Home
Laura Villegas, Progressive Alliance - Santa Monica College
Johnneric Concordia, Alliance for a Just and Lasting Peace in the Philippines
John Beacham, A.N.S.W.E.R. Los Angeles
<clip>

http://www.answerla.org/links/index.htm

[Bridget Burke]

235. Apparently Juan Jose Gutierrez is the only member....

Of Latino Movement USA.

The "group" has no website.

[hiley]

251. so when he was introduced, is it in your opinon it is

an illusion or what?
Introduction was of course at the very beginning.
Here is the mp3 again below.
Bridget I just looked for links like you requested & this is getting old.
Recorded at a PSL Forum in LA 03/10/06
http://www.polizerosdata.com/audio/psl/Juan%20Jose%20Gu...

I would sure imagine if it weren't truely his title he would have corrected this.. Immigrants Rights Latino Movement USA Director Juan Jose Gutierrez

He has been on Lou Dobbs more than once, look it up. Really, don't you think he would correct people?
<clip>

But others, like Juan Jose Gutierrez, whom I've interviewed a number of times over the past several months, manages to be both director of Latino Movement USA and a representative of ANSWER.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/dobbs.immigrantprotest...

"Millions of workers, men and women without documents and their supporters who are, in fact, legal United States citizens will heed the call to not go to work," said Juan Jose Gutierrez, national coordinator of Latino Movement USA and one of the lead organizers of Monday's planned boycott. (Watch why organizers say the boycott is needed -- 1:40)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/28/boycott/index.html

Juan Jose Gutierez Interview with CNN's Lou Dobbs,;
Juan Jose Gutierez, is the National Coordinator of the Latino Movement-USA, a member of the ANSWER Los Angeles Coalition Steering Committee. He is one of the movers of the LA's immigrant mobilizations and the May 1 Great American Boycott. The CDIR published the transcripts of his interview for all immigrants to analyze how the anti-immigrant react to the issues and how an immigrant advocate stands for our issues in the U.S.
<clip>
My next guest is one of the lead organizers of the upcoming May 1 demonstrations in support of amnesty for illegal aliens and a presumed boycott. He's compared the mass protest by illegal aliens and their supporters to the American Revolution. Juan Jose Gutierrez is the National Coordinator of Latino Movement USA, joining us tonight from Los Angeles. Juan, good to have you with us.

JUAN GUTIERREZ, LATINO MOVEMENT USA: Thank you for having me.

DOBBS: Let's start with the May 1st, the plans for that are for it to be nationwide and to be significant and a lot of people to turn out. Are you satisfied with the way the preparations are going?

GUTIERREZ: Very much so. We fully expect that on that day, on May 1st, International Workers Day, millions of workers, men and women without documents and their supporters who are, in fact, legal United States citizens will heed the call to not go to work. Many hundreds of thousands of students, perhaps millions, will stay away from school and people will not shop and will not sell anything.
<clip>
http://qc.indymedia.org/news/2006/04/6966.php


Maybe you will believe PBS?
also here:
http://www.pslblog.org/?p=105

From Online NewsHour

<clip>


JUAN JOSE GUTIERREZ, Latino Movement USA: What I envisioned that is going to happen as a result of this very remarkable and historic day is that the American people are going to begin paying attention to the very just quest by immigrants for legalization.
<clip>


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_america/jan-june06...
Watch the video
at the link...

[AlphaCentauri]

302. Is this a new way to demonize a community activist?

That's old politics

[hiley]

304. exactly who are you accusing me of demonizing?

explain yourself please


Facts from transcripts?
Bridget says there is no Latino Movement USA, the Director Juan Jose Gutierrez says he is in the Immigrate Rights Latino Movement USA proof is everywhere & I said nothing about him personally.

[AlphaCentauri]

310. What 's your point?

Using right win propaganda to proof who he is doesn't make sense.



The final straw that led to the social explosion currently shaking the country was a proposal by Republican James Sensenbrenner, who asked for the deportation of all undocumented workers, the building of a wall on the border between Mexico and the US, and the criminalization of people who give any help to person who lacks legal residence in the nation. These are a bunch of xenophobic measures that would affect over 40 million people, of whom 12 millions are illegal.

With a career of over 30 years of active struggle supporting the demands of undocumented workers, Juan Jose also headed the One Stop Immigration and Education Center, one of the most important immigration organizations within US territory. In his view, the current demonstrations, initiated in March, have surpassed the popular demonstrations staged in the 1960´s for the civil rights of Afro-Americans”

Workers of Latino origin in the United States produce every year some 800 billion dollars worth of products. Such cities as San Francisco, Maywood, Huntington Park, South Gate and Pomona in California, have been declared sanctuaries for the immigrants. Tacoma Park, Maryland and New York have done the same.

[hiley]

311. PBS & CNN Interviews WIth Juan's own words are RW propaganda,

propaganda?
WTF? are you talking about?

Either Juan Jose Gutierrez is the Director of Immigrate Rights Latino Movement USA or he is not.

That was the subject not what he does.. I was not even talking about Juan in the first place so let's take it through some steps.

Bridget Burke said Lou Dobbs was "scared" & wanted to know who the RADICAL links the OP referred too.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I read the link and said A.N.S.W.E.R. perhaps.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

&
follow along I presented ANSWER info, NOTHING about Latino Movement USA or Juan
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Then Bridget Burke brought up Latino Movement USA saying tell us more about it (like I had expressed a opinion about it already, NOT) & says it does not exist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Where did I say a thing derogatory about Juan Jose Gutierrez?

Demonize?

By saying here is his speech with his title?

Republican James Sensenbrenner has nothing to do with your saying I demonized Gutierrez.

Of course, I know about the bill
Know all the info on the protest too.
Sanctuaries for the immigrants as well But what does that have to do with your attacking me with accusations?

So no need to lecture me TAKE it up with Bridget who writes that Latino Movement USA does not exist & then says well Juan must be the only Member

[AlphaCentauri]

314. Lou Dobbs is a Medieval Times show

for Medieval times mind-set or the inquisitors. He use his air time to display all of those who have "the devils mark" according to the RW propaganda

[hiley]

315. "The devils mark"

a okay...



Why is Juan Jose on the show repeatedly then?


Guess you better warn him before it is too late!


As far as the other part of the conversation where you said I demonize Juan Jose with no Proof, an apology would be appropriate.

peace

[AlphaCentauri]

316. may be too late

Apology pending until admission of use of RW propaganda

Peace

[hiley]

318. But you see I did not use RW propaganda to bad mouth

anyone yet to prove there is Latino Movement USA, no?
peace

[Bridget Burke]

305. So tell me more about Latino Movement USA...

Does it have any members besides Juan Jose Gutierrez?

Sounds as though ANSWER wants a connection to immigration rights. They found one guy to go along with thim. And the Right Wing Idiots like having a "Marxist" to kick around.

Doesn't Latino Movement USA even have a website?

[hiley]

334. ANSWER was the issue; not Latino Movement USA

I have lost interest of you comprehending that Juan Jose's Title is always introduced as Director of Immigrate Rights Latino Movement USA & part of ANSWER.

Must one always have a web site,

NO

get over it already.


In the first place I told you Dobbs was referring to ANSWER.

But only one newspaper, to its credit, reported that illegal aliens and their supporters' boycott of the national economy on the First of May is clear evidence that radical elements have seized control of the movement. The Washington Post , alone among national papers, reported that ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) has become an active promoter of the national boycott.

<clip>

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/dobbs.immigrantprotest... /

The Washington Post is referred to, so I suggest starting there for YOUR
research..
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/NewsSearch?sb=...
I am not part of Latino Movement USA or ANSWER so ask someone who is, like Juan. Write him & ask..

stop beating a dead horse & rather pathetically.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. So now I am part of a radical element?

Cool! Do I get a free t-shirt or do I have to buy it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. They are not strained

Undocumented immigrants are NOT ELIGIBLE for govt social amnd health services. Their kids (most of whom were born here) get to come to our public schools. Considering what massive groups of kids would be doing on our streets during the school day if they were not allowed to come to school, I am completely in favor of educating them. Besides, there's that whole undeducated/ignorance problem. Don't need to compound it.

[Coexist]

82. they are if they get fake SS#

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. How does that strain the SS system???

Answer - it does not. SS collects $6 BILLION a year in SS taxes from these 'fake' numbers. How is that a strain???

I am about ready to sell my number. I would love to have another worker making contributions to my SS account.

[Coexist]

103. it doesn't - but with a SS#

you can apply for medicaid or medicare, food stamps, etc.

Not that I care - I think healthcare should be there for those who need it.

I was just presenting a fact.

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. No you also need a birth certificate, drivers license and

proof of residency.

I help families who ARE eligible (because they are US citizens) apply for these services. So I am very familiar with the required documentation. A SS# is NOT a legal form of identification. And that alone does you no good except to tell your employer what SS account to credit your taxes to.

on edit - in some states, you also need a marriage license

[Coexist]

123. if you can get a SS#, you can get those too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

132. Go ahead and try

and let us know how it worked for you.

[Coexist]

135. I don't have to do that because I did not knowingly enter

a foreign country illegally.

[proud2BlibKansan]

139. You fail to see my point

It is not as easy as it sounds. Homeland Security - remember them? They are crackiing down HARD on the fake ID industry.

[Coexist]

140. That is a very good thing.

Because fake docs allow employers to knowingly hire illegal workers and claim they had no idea.

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. Yes it is a good thing

but is also proves my point, that having a SS# is not a ticket to welfare or Medicaid or any other govt services. It doesn't even guarantee SS services.

[hiley]

99. yes

exactly

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. How many times do you have to be told that it is nearly

impossible to immigrate legally into the US from Central America now? When these beautiful words were written, there was no illegal immigration problem because our gates were OPEN. Now they are shut to Hispanics.

[Sterling]

118. It's harder to do legally because of the illegals.

They seem ok with cutting in line in front of others who would prefer to do it legit. I think we would be better off with the type of people who would prefer legitimacy, not the ones who could give a fuck about the law.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. It is harder because Reagan changed the rules

and since there is no clearcut legitimate way to come here from Central America anymore, their only choice is to come illegally. Or they could stay in their native countries and live in paper shack houses and watch their kids starve and die. Then at least they would be showing respect for US law.

I wonder how many East Germans chose to stay on their side of that wall out of respect for the law??

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Oh how quickly we forget!

Good quote Ben.

[GeorgeGist]

4. I think ...

TYAFOS

[kurth]

7. ILLEGAL foreigners have no "civil rights" in any country

None. Zero.

The best they can hope for is either humanitarian asylum or a free ride back to their home country.

[benburch]

17. Not true whatsoever.

In some countries they have the presumptive right to stay, in fact, and any deportation has to show cause.

And in others, you can claim asylum and then the State must disprove your asylum claim.

But that is neither here nor there; We are AMERICANS, and we are BETTER than those other countries, and we need to open our doors to those who need LIBERTY.