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Oh come on you stupid Mexicans....LEARN ENGLISH!!!

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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 05:47 AM
Original message
Oh come on you stupid Mexicans....LEARN ENGLISH!!!
I got soooo sick and tired of hearing people on the news about the marches say, "blah blah blah, and those people should know English if they want to live here!!!"

Yea, as though earth is going to stop rotating if some people are not fluent in arguably one of the toughest languages to learn. Come on.

I live in California, and the fact of the matter is most immigrants from Spanish-speaking countries impress me by their bilingual abilities.

Should 9-1-1 operators and other critical job workers be required to speak perfectly non-broken English? You bet.

But otherwise, who gives a rat's ass if God forbid, you have to ask the cashier to repeat themselves because you didn't completely understand? :eyes:



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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Oh boy ...
The ruling class just love it when us little people fight with each other over stupid shit, IMO, such as this. :(
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm not sure I understand your comment about
us little people fighting over stupid shit such as this :shrug:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. With respect, I'm bilingual and have lived in the Country of Panama
Edited on Tue May-02-06 06:51 AM by ShortnFiery
If we could set aside these language divisiveness, I'll volunteer to translate among us all. YOU, in particular, the thread starter is part of the choir, but to the rest:

Honestly, ANY of US Non-Investor Class Americans (wealth less than 300,000 invested in Wall Street) are not much better off than those who illegally crossed our Southern Border.

The real enemies of The People of the USA is the Large Corporations who love to have us working and middle classes fighting each other over "the scraps." We need to bring back THE UNIONS ... organize like there's no tomorrow.

Otherwise, if we do NOTHING ... if you want a glimpse of future HARDSHIPS ... a bitter taste of OUR future ... read a novel from the past, "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1884365302/002-9157177...

snip

Sinclair widely utilized the metaphor of the jungle (survival of the fittest, etc.) throughout this book to reflect how the vulnerable worker is at the mercy of the powerful packers and politicians. Mother Nature is represented as a machine who destroys the weak and protects the elite powerful. To illustrate his sentiments Sinclair wrote of family of Jurgis and Ona who immigrated to Chicago from Lithuania in search of the American dream. They arrive in all innocence and believe that hard work would result in a stable income and security. But they soon realize that all the forces are against them. During the subsequent years Jurgis tries to hold on what he has but he is fighting a losing battle. It is not until he stumbles upon a political meeting that his eyes upon the evils of capitalism and the sacredness of socialism.

If one is to read THE JUNGLE, then they should do themselves a favor and seek out this version. It is the original, uncensored version that Sinclair originally intended to publish. It contains much more details of the horrifying conditions of the meatpacking industry that Jurgis and his family were subjected to. I originally read the standard version of this book many years ago, but I didn't hesitate to invest in this edition as I wanted to read what Sinclair had originally intended.

THE JUNGLE is an important book on the labor history of the United States, the non-fairytale immigration of foreigners into the melting pot, and the history of Chicago. Recommended, but not for the faint of heart.

/snip

My major point is that we must not get distracted into snipping with each other. WE MUST ORGANIZE to have a true voice. Anyone who is not part of the investor or ruling class ... anyone who's a thoughtful and hard working American (or even doing their best to be one) is NOT Our Enemy. Fighting "each other" (Working Americans) over something as inconsequential as "language" is just, IMO, not productive when there's more pressing matters demanding our attention, i.e., organizing labor. :hi:


:-)
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #22
46. Ah, got it.
:hi:
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
65. THanks for posting that. I read the standard version of
the book decades ago, but I'll look into that version.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think it's called "When in Rome do as the Romans do" nt
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. actually it's more acurately called xenoiphobia. nt
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. You can't be fucking serious - xenophobia?
Edited on Tue May-02-06 06:37 AM by Rabrrrrrr
Xenophobia? You seriously think this is a form of xenophobia? Certainly coming from the rightwingers, it's nothing but masked racism and hatred; but even intelligent people see the logic, and the moral duty, of an immigrant learning the language of their new country.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. Rabrrrrrr, Thank You, I tried in an abbreviated form I tried to say.......
....much the same as you did. Yous were much better though, "......even intelligent people see the logic, and the moral duty, of an immigrant learning the language of their new country."
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. "the moral duty, of an immigrant learning the language...
...of their new country"?

Of course immigrants will fare better if they learn English. Clue: Many of them are doing it. Clue 2: ESL classes fill up pretty quickly. Especially affordable ones scheduled for working people.

But--"Moral Duty"? Give me a break.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #32
60. From my standpoint, a moral duty - yes.
But from my standpoint, I believe strongly that we have a moral duty not to subject our bullshit on other people; thus and therefore, it's our moral duty to learn the language of a community in which we intend to live, so that we don't subject them to our bullshit - in this case, an inability to communicate and thus the immigrant requires the community to adjust to them, instead of the immigrant adjusting to their new community.

Of course, others will not begin at the same starting point that I do, and so will draw a different conclusion. But I do believe that one of our biggest moral duties is not subjecting our bullshit on others.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. Which "bullshit" have you had to endure lately?
I'm wondering what immorality offended you so much.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #67
81. What I've personally experienced is going in a store in my........
....own community - not some foreign land - and not being able to understand the sales person because they don't even know basic English. :banghead: What makes that a moral issue?? :think: Think I'd get away with not speaking the local language in their land of origin?? :grr: NOT!!! :banghead:

In other words don't tell me a person wants to be part of America - prove it by learning the language and following our rules and laws. :applause:

:wtf:What part of that is hard to understand, or is it that some people insist on ignoring the obvious??? :wtf:
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Oh you poor thing. You better run straight to the psychiatrist's office
and get some help. (Just make sure you don't go to one of those foreigner doctors!!)

The humanity....you can't understand the sales person.

I have an idea. How about you direct your hysteria toward the employer for hiring someone who can't communicate to your satisfaction, huh?

And if the employer can't speak "basic English" and hires employees who can't speak "basic English." -- THEN GO TO A DIFFERENT STORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #82
89. How about we DEMAND that ILLEGAL ALIENS and COMPANIES all.......
.....follow the same set of laws. Yes, fine the holy crap out of companies who hire illegal aliens (not in the thousands of dollar but start with $1 million a day) and REQUIRE/DEMAND illegal aliens ONLY come here legally. Then, if EVERYONE is following the laws no one can let one group off the legal hook while wanting to throw the book at the other one. Everyone who breaks the law would get the legal book thrown at them, as it should be.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. You see, I knew we could agree about something. :)
My original argument was only that it's ridiculous to accuse or presume that illegally employed workers who are here from Mexico don't want to learn English. It's hog wash.

But we're on the same page concerning cracking down on both the workers and employers.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. Then the next step would be to secure our borders with.........
...military force between our borders and anyone who wanted to cross those borders (north, south, east, or west) illegally?? In other words secure our borders and keep them secured with any and all force necessary. For any illegal aliens that do get through then fine companies $1 million a day for every illegal alien hired. Problem instantly solved!!! :wow:
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IndyJones Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #89
111. I agree with you. It should be the same process for Mexicans as it is
for people from anywhere else. And employers who hire them illegaly should be fined and/or do jail time.

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #81
97. Yah, sure....
Perhaps you should start some classes in Minnesotan....
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #97
112. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha... THAT... Was Perfect !!!
Hell, I can barely understand somebody from Brooklyn or South Carolina, let alone many 15-20 year olds sometimes. Damn I'm gettin old.

One thing that has always amused me, is the same folks who want immigrants be required to speak the Queen's English, have no problem with IRS Forms being printed in Spanish.

"Wanna make sure them dang illegals pay their fare share a taxes before we toss 'em back over the border."

And... What of Our Founding Illegals, er... Fathers???

Remember: Taxation Without Representation, Is Tyranny!

So... I guess they SHOULDN'T have to pay taxes, eh???

:evilgrin:
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. Why do some people pick out Spanish/Mexican to focus on when............ .
....the issue of illegal aliens comes up?? NOTICE I am NOT picking out any one group/race or language or doing any narrowing down of any kind as to what illegal aliens I'm talking about.

Our immigration laws were NOT meant to be easy, in fact they were meant to be very hard to accomplish. Why? Because when a person - from any where in the world finally becomes a citizen of this country they will know they've really done something. So if a person or a group of people want to be a part of this society they still need to follow those rules/laws REGARDLESS of how long it takes.

I can't help but wonder what would have happened if all the illegal aliens from Mexico had demonstrated in Mexico the way they did here. Would they even be alive today or maybe they'd all be crammed into Mexican prisons. Interesting question that no one seems to be asking. And what would happen to Americans if they went to Mexico illegally and demonstrated the way Mexicans did here? I wish someone would come up with more than just some sarcastic comment on those questions.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. Our immigration laws have often been easy.
There are two stages to becoming a citizen.

First, you need to become a legal resident of the USA. In my grandparents' day, that involved showing up at Ellis Island & passing a physical. (Of course, they were white.) Since then, things have gotten tougher & immigration lawyers have gotten richer. Becoming a legal resident can be expensive & time consuming--unless you're Cuban.

Next comes naturalization. That involves learning the language & learning more about US government than many "natives" know.

Mexicans DO demonstrate in Mexico.

This demonstration happened last year. Read about if you truly want to know something about Mexico: www.apostropher.com/blog/archives/2005_04.html







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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #16
39. So, not learning English is immoral? Did you really mean that?
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #39
56. No, I said that learning the language of a country to which one immigrates
is a moral duty. I said nothing about English.

The only conclusion that you can draw from that statement is that refusal to learn the language of the country to which one moves is therefore a moral failure on the part of the immigrant.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
62. Because we all know intelligent people can't be racist...
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shenmue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
76. Exactly
English is not 'the hardest' to learn. Anything is hard if you don't want to try. Take a crack at Greek, Arabic, Chinese, Russian, etc. There are plenty that are tougher than English. It has chiefly Latin and German roots. It also has more than half a million words. It's highly expressive.

There's nothing wrong with learning English. I wouldn't even think of moving to a new country without learning their language. I certainly wouldn't have the nerve to get angry if they expected me to try.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
83. "moral duty"?
Moral?

I can understand it's helpful to learn the native language. But people who want to assimilate immigrants aren't the same people who want to help them.

Yes, xenophobia. Ooo, look out! I'm using Greek! How unamerican!
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
85. Most immigrants
really, really, want to learn the language. Check out Spanish-language TV sometime; half the ads are for home courses to learn English. I have a friend who's an ESL teacher, and they have to turn people away because so many people want to take the classes. It's hard for immigrants because most of them work such long hours, but most do want to try to learn the language. People know how important it is to speak English in order to prosper in this country.

And don't forget, even if the parents never become fluent, their children always will. It's like any other immigration wave, w/each generation becoming more & more assimilated into the wider American culture (hopefully w/o losing their own identity).
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. By the third generation, every U.S. child of Mexican descent
Edited on Tue May-02-06 02:24 PM by Ms. Clio
uses English as his or her primary language, and speaks very little, if any, Spanish.

Edited to add: When I was learning Spanish, I used to watch a lot of Spanish language television, and I remember all those ads.
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One_of_8 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #85
102. Agreed - most want to learn to speak, and be able to
read and write in English. I have neighbors who are immigrants from Mexico. The husband speaks some English, the wife less. She apologizes every time we talk about not knowing much English, but we are able to communicate and she's trying to learn. Their 7-year old son is the translator in the family, and understands a good deal of English.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. after all , we learned to speak
the Wampanoag language when we landed at Plymouth rock........
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think the answer is that we should ALL have to learn to speak
Ojibwe or one of the other hundreds of Native American languages. That would shut some folks up....
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Liberal Dose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
28. Aniin neegie, ojeemishin!
(Hello friend, give me a little kiss)
I would've asked for a hug, but I can't remember the Ojibwe phrase for that right off the top of my head. I agree with you on the learning Indigenous* languages, and I've also had a weird experience involving some people who just don't like to speak English. They can speak, but won't if they can help it. When I moved to South Florida 2 years ago, I got a job in Miami at the headquarters for a major credit card company. Apparantly I was the only person they could find who knew how to build and repair the databases they use so they were kind of stuck. Also, I was the only person there who didn't speak Spanish. I know the greetings and replies, so when someone would greet me in Spanish I would reply in kind, but if they started to converse I would say sorry, I don't speak Spanish. What really hurt my feelings was the fact that nobody wanted to continue a conversation after I said I didn't know Spanish. When someone absolutely had to communicate with me, they would always start in Spanish and I had to remind them to switch to English. If I had a crystal ball back in the 70s, I would've taken 3 years of Spanish instead of French, but oh well.
Of course none of this matters now because I no longer work there so I'll shut up now and go back to drinking my mackadaymushkikiwaboo (black medicine water or coffee).

:hi:


*I can't stand the label "Native American"
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #28
69. WOW....
I don't think I imagined getting a reply in Ojibwe! If you were in S. Florida, you probably know about the Miccosukee. I worked with them on a health related issue years ago. Although their language had been somewhat endangered, there were elders who would speak nothing else. Quite interesting given their proximity to Miami (and Naples on the other side).

I like "indigenous".... but, I detest "Indian." Given the rampant nativism going on right now, "Native American" seems to have cache'--besides the fact we probably have 50% or more ignorant RWers who wouldn't know what the term "indigenous" meant...LOL
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
7. The Chinese are managing to learn. A seriously different tongue.
The older you get, the tougher it is to learn a new language. So the grandparents, the elderly who came over with younger family, use their grandchildren to interpret. Every group has put in their time that way.

You seem to be saying we shouldn't complain that immigrants need to learn English because they already did. Are you?
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. I'm saying that we shouldn't complain that immigrants need to
learn English because it's not like they're coming here saying to themselves....."Oh screw these Americans if they think I'm going to learn English. I don't need to know English."

They know they're expected to learn English and again, I think they have pretty impressive bilingual skills. Don't you?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #21
70. the young woman counting change at the grocery couldn't count change
Edited on Tue May-02-06 08:06 AM by cryingshame
in English. Also, the young women who work in the Big Box store can't answer simple questions like "where is the bathroom?".

So my pint is, can we hold of hiring people until they have a BASIC command of English? Not even talking conversational English.

BTW, until very recently these jobs were taken by younger (mostly black) women and school age youngsters (I was one way back in the day).

There is a subset of people living here who don't speak English and really don't seem to be trying. I recognize some of the young women in the grocery and they haven't seemed to improve their language skills and the way things are set up... they really don't need to. They can scrape by at a low wage job and be taken advantage of all the while not really speaking any English.

If the state or local government isn't funding ESL classes or providing enough of them, then IMO it's up to those immigrants who DO know some English to bring their fellow immigrants up to speed.

At this point, the government is obviously just not doing it for the people living here. People and communities are going to have to care of each other directly.
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neoteric lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #70
92. I'm having a problem with these arguments
Should immigrants learn the language of the land? Yes, they should.

Is it their moral obligation to do so? Of course not.

If someone decides not to linguistically assimilate, then that should be their choice and their problem. Hopefully, they realize that it is much harder to live in a land without knowing the language. However, when people say that the same person has an obligation to everyone else to learn the language, I get creeped out. Does a racist have an obligation to everyone to be inclusive? Does an idiot have an obligation to everyone to smarter? Does a Republican have an obligation to everyone to know his or her facts before opening his or her mouth? :)

In this country, you have the freedom to learn as much or as little as you want. Just like you have the freedom to shop somewhere else if you are unhappy with the sales clerk at a particular store. We should give immigrants the tools to learn the language, and should require students to learn (if for no other reason, it is cheaper to do so in the long run). However, this moral obligation argument is opinion. Nothing more.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
8. why, when the intension is to rename United States to 'Northern Mexico'.??
:wow: :nopity: I grew up in Central California and it was common knowledge that they intended to retake what they felt was 'Theirs'.. i am 57 this isn't anything new.. my Mexican friends always joked about it, but i always knew they were serious.. my mother worked in a restaurant and the kitchen crew in the 60's were always telling her that.. everytime she told them to do something they didnt want to do..

and wdhen the time comes.. WE will have to learn Spanish.
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lisby Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
31. And my southern mother always told me
"The South will rise again."

It was "common knowledge" that they were going to retake what was theirs.

:eyes:


Lisby
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
9. I've lived in various countries and had to learn the languages.
It's part of living in a country. You need to learn the language or languages that is or are spoken. It's common sense. Immigrants cannot safely live in this country, and they cannot prosper if they do not speak English. Much as I enjoy learning languages, it is important that people who wait on me in stores or work in America learn English and speak it fairly clearly. Bad things happen to people who cannot make themselves understood to the majority of the people around them. Things like getting arrested on a misunderstanding, like not getting the proper medical care in an emergency, like getting cheated big time in a business transaction. People need to learn and speak well the dominant language in the country in which they live. Trust me, been there, done that. You also need to learn the basic rules of the road if you are going to drive in a foreign country, and you need to learn a lot of other information about the culture -- even about the superstitions and the manner in which people greet each other. You don't just walk in and think you are going to get along without studying the society -- including the language -- in which you are going to live. It's stupid to try it.
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NavyDavy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. I agree...
I have lived in Italy, Spain, and Portugal, I may not have become fluent but I at least learned enough to get by, and I always had my trusty spanish to english, italian to english, etc dictionary or translator.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. You're implying that immigrants are coming here and not making an
effort or even refusing to learn English, no?

If I moved to Russia, or Italy or Holland to work and become a citizen, of course I would want to learn how to speak Russian and Italian and Dutch.

What proof is there that these people from Mexico or other Spanish-speaking countries don't want to learn English?
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
47. I live in Southern California.
It's amazing how many people cannot speak English here. If we had a disaster, and random individuals had to communicate quickly and well, it would be a huge problem in some areas.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #47
54. Yes, but you don't know how long many of the people you're talking
about have lived in L.A., right?

Give them a chance. I'm sure they're learning.

My point is I don't think they aren't trying or don't want to.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
90. proof?
Why, their proof is a two-minute interaction in the checkout line, where nothing more substantial is said than, "Two lottery tickets, please."

Apparently you can discern a person's entire suite of needs, fears, and hopes when they sell you a pack of smokes, and it's especially obvious whether they're interested in learning a second language, and that they have the time and resources to do so, but really just have other priorities.

Apparently you can learn a lot in a checkout line.

:sarcasm:
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
10. Any Bets on How Many People Aren't Going to Read The Whole Post?
I read the whole thing - I like being different. And I agree - fluency is great, but I appreciate a good effort too!
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
11. How fast are these people suppose to learn English
I would think it takes a good amount of time to learn it. We have a preznit who still doesn't speak it very well.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
12. immigrants have an ethical duty to learn the language
of the country they moved to.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. Alright, but what proof does anyone have that immigrants don't
care about learning the language?
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Beats me.
We do have a lot of immigrants who DON'T learn English, though.

Whatever their reasons or feelings are for not learning English, I don't know - but the result is the same.

It's a rather irrelevant question, really. Who cares about motive? It's the result that matters.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Oh we do huh? We have a lot of immigrants who DON'T learn English?
And data you can provide to back that up?

Maybe you'll say "beats me" to this question as well???
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. Perhaps he hears people speaking other languages than English....
I certainly do in Houston. Spanish, Arabic, several varieties of Chinese, several languages from the Indian Subcontinent, Vietnamese, etc. Just because they prefer to speak those languages with each other does NOT mean they can't speak English.

And even those whose English is poor generally want to improve. If they can find classes that fit into their schedules, that is. At least their children will learn in school--that's generally the case with immigrants.

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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #40
48. Well I'm not talking about other languages. I'm talking about Spanish
for this post.

But if other non-Latino immigrants, including those you mentioned, are not making an effort, I would agree that they should.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #33
52. I lived in Harlem for almost twelve years, 6 of those
in a Spanish speaking area. Came to know a lot of immigrants who didn't learn English. Their children knew; but not the older generation. Same thing in Chinatown in Manhattan, and probably a lot of Chinatowns. We have Hmong back in Wisconsin who aren't learning English - but for the most part, their kids are.

What's with the broomstick up your ass on this? It's a simple truth - we have immigrants who don't know English, and who don't learn it. Why is this such an affront to you to admit to a truth? Lots of Germans and Norwegians and Swedes didn't learn English here, either, when they came. Hell, we had some churches in Wisconsin still doing worship in German until the 1960s.

Why all the outrage from you?
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #52
68. I'm not outraged. I'm irritated. Fine, some people in Harlem where
you lived loved Spanish so much that they refused to learn English.

Yes, we have immigrants who don't know English.

But for anyone to imply that most are not trying is ridiculous. There is no data to support that they're not.

(And you're talking to a guy who lives in heavily Hispanic populated California)
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. And where did I ever say that "most" are not?
I certainly did not.

In my realm of experience I've known only a small percentage of immigrants who aren't learning English.

:shrug:
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #71
74. Well then why did you jump all over me? I agree that most certainly a
small percentage, which is why I get irritated when I hear people scream and shout that "these Mexicans need to learn English."

I believe they're implying that it's a problem, and that a lot of immigrants are not wanting or don't care about learning.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
35. Exactly...
Do people honestly think immigrants DON'T want to learn English? They know better than anyone that they should learn it for their own well-being.
But all this talk of "requirements" and "National Anthems need to be sung in English" makes me ill.
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ceile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
86. Exactly!
I am so sick of people just assuming that immigrants don't WANT to learn the language. It pisses me off. I have a lot of relatives from Mexico and they try their best. Even Mexicans on the street always try to converse in their broken English before Spanish. The thought that immigrants don't want to learn English is just another derogatory attitude in my opinion.

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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Beautifully said
:)
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ceile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. Thank you!
And when their English is bad, I try in Spanish (which is even worse). ;-)
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
37. "ethical duty"--almost as good as "moral duty"
Yes, immigrants will be better off if they learn English. Most of them are trying.

Please explain "ethical duty."
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:38 AM
Original message
I have a question. Where did your ancestors come from?
Mine came from Poland and the first generation never learned a word of English. They kept their customs as well.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
66. North America and Germany.
My German ancestors came to Wisconsin, where they could pretty well manage without English, since it was a large German area. But they did eventually learn it. Sadly, however, they took it too far and refused to teach their children German, saying "We are in America now, you will know only English".

Unfortunately, too many cultures did that in the 1800 and 1900s. I give credit to the hispanics, for mostly keeping their language and customs as they move here, and many other new immigrants seem to be keeping some of their old world when they come. I wish my great-grandparents, and all their immigrant peers, had done the same. We (Americans) have lost a lot because of it.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #66
72. When tens of millions of immigrants from Germany, Italy, Poland, etc
did the same thing I don't see why we should expect a much higher standard now.
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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
79. My grandparents came from Hungary around 1905
and my grandfather lived and died here without ever speaking English. My grandmother never spoke it well and preferred Hungarian. They lived in a little Hungarian enclave in Connecticut, with its own church, grocers, etc. They never became citizens, either, leaving the matter up to their children who, unfortunately, never got around to the paperwork. As a result, they were never able to visit relatives in their native country.

I know of other Italian families whose first generation in the US never spoke English.

A friend who has taught ESL to migrants has found that some Mexicans, Hondurans, etc., are illiterate in their native languages, and it's very difficult to teach them English.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #79
103. My father's parents came from Italy and didn't know a word of
the language when they arrived as teenagers. By the time my father was born, they were fluent in both English and Italian and would speak both. My great grandparents learned enough English to get by, but never became completely fluent. I have know immigrant families (from Europe as well as Latin America and Asia) who have been in this country 30-40 years and barely speak a word of English. I'm sorry, but that's just plain laziness.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. My great grandparents came from Sicily, and though they never mastered
English in such a way as to be fluent, they certainly used English in their daily lives (and as the family stories attest, often to great comic effect).
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foreverdem Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #103
120. One of my neighbors is like that
The woman is in her '80's, has been in the country for over 50 years and barely speaks a word of English. She raised two sons who speak perfect English. This woman brings all paperwork, forms, anything that she needs filled out to my mother in law (who is fluent in English & Italian), because she cannot understand written English either. My mother in law also makes any phone calls to the phone co, electric co, etc. that she needs made for her. The refusal to learn English on my neighbor's part, I believe, is pure laziness.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
13. learning Esperanto would allow peoples to retain their culture and still
able to communicate.. it is a very easy language.. 12 rules of speech, a word is made a verb noun adjective simply by changing the suffix.. if a child learns Esperanto before puberty they can become fluent in any other language in less than 2 years.. which could same some time and money in college
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
14. Can we change the subject?
PLEASE?
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
38. Sure. Hurtful, insulting issues should be swept under the carpet.
:eyes:
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
15. Mrs. Smith lived in Santiago de Cuba for 25 years before she died.
and never, ever, in those twenty-five years did she ever, ever, learn one word of spanish. She exemplifies the arrogance of sooo many americans who go abroad, do not speak the languages of the countries that they go to, do not mix with the locals of the countries that they go to, do not eat the foods of the countries that they go to,and they expect to be treated as kings and queens in the countries that they go to.

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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #15
49. BRAVO. Well said
:applause: ;)
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #49
80. thanks
:patriot:
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Mr.Green93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
17. Should 9-1-1 operators and other critical job workers be required to speak
What a bigoted statement.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Wow - that's bigoted?
Fuck then, if we're gonna be insane and let anyone who can speak, whatever the language is, work the emergency phones, then why even bother with requiring doctors to go to school?

If we're going to be fucknut idiots about it, let's go whole hog. Let's give cars to six year olds. Let's let the mentally handicapped experiment with biological weapons. Let's make a requirement that all air traffic controllers have to be blind and deaf.

:eyes:

Bigoted my ass.
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NavyDavy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. why ? I think they should have to speak English for jobs
such as that, but also have spanish or other language operators available....its not bigoted when 90% or more of the calls probably come thru in english.....IMHO
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. I have a good friend who was born on the border
between Germany and France. She's still a French Citizen (ooh la la) but married an American and lives down the street. I love her accent, it's so beautiful.

But guess what? To survive traveling around Europe, one MUST speak, or at least become familiar with SEVERAL LANGUAGES. She speaks, French (native tongue), German and English. And I must say, on Yahoo messenger, she types as well as she speaks.

We really need to open our minds. Sure, I feel really freaky when I get a pedicure and everyone is speaking Vietnamese, but it's their shop - their business. Live and let live! :-)
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. He was referring to 911 operators.
Of all people, they should be able to speak English.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. Oh Gawd, I don't think that will be "an issue"
Especially since MOST nations teach English as a second language. :eyes:
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. Bigot? Put down your crack pipe and think about this for a second:
Your house is on fire and your kids are trapped in their bedroom.

You call 9-1-1 and try to tell this to the operator, but since the operator doesn't speak perfect English, he or she doesn't understand.

Your kids burn to death.

Fine, I'll be the bigot as long as you agree to be the idiot
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Who's going to hiring anyone for a 911 job that doesn't speak English....
...well enough to deal with emergency situations? Does that make any sense?

Maybe you should be the one to put down the crack pipe.

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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. I know, and who is going to hire a FEMA director who has no
experience dealing with disasters?

I think you got my point but just want to fight.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #29
41. To be honest, I'd be more worried about the person
Edited on Tue May-02-06 07:05 AM by ShortnFiery
being able to be well trained and can read a map.

I almost had to do a tracheotomy on my best friend (having a strong allergic reaction to a new medication) because the Volunteer Fire Squad couldn't find our address!?!

I tell people now to go to Wa Wa down the street should they stroke-out or something. English is the least of our worries because it's a GIVEN for such jobs. Proper training of all personnel is another matter. I had to have a neighbor get in her car and race down the street to snag these Emergency Team Bozos. Just in time, I might add.

No, I'd worry more that I'd be struck by lightening than the dispatcher speaking English. But TRAINING? Whoa! That's the main issue. :hi:
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. What abou the recent case of a 911 call that was ignored....
Because a kid called to say his mother was dying? I believe both parties spoke English--language was not the problem.

Yes, 911 operators should speak English well. And some should speak Spanish, also.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Yes, assessment for "Common Sense" is a must ...
Whoever HIRED this woman should also be canned.

Point taken - Training and proper character evaluation can NOT be discounted. :P
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
44. Did you ever notice that the least interesting people are worried
that the cashiers at McDonalds are gossiping about them in Spanish?

One time when I was coming back from Europe this older couple next to me on the plane said a French clerk was rude to them because he spoke French to someone else right in front of them.

It is a difficult attitude to fix with our anti-intellectual crap here.

You know it's funny, white people love to repeat the thing about black kids dogging someone who studies as "acting white," but they will take great pride in an ignorance of language that would keep them from gettig a job as a bathroom attendant in most countries.

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
50. If they don't learn English, how will they know when they're being
SCREWED? I used to be a big boxing fan and and some of the best fighters come from Mexico. They were notorious for being taken to the cleaners by ruthless fight promoters and there was serious money involved.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
51. Exactly. When my ancestors came here from Poland, the 1st generation
knew, and never learned, any English at all. As a matter of fact, they kept all their customs from their home country. They never really assimilated. Even the 2nd generation spoke a good deal of Polish. The same undoubtedly goes for the ancestors of tens of millions of Americans who came from a country outside the British Isles.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Not me.
My parents immigrated here from India and already knew English beforehand.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Where in Poland were my ancestors going to learn English?
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Why don't you tell me?
If people from India can learn English, surely people from Poland could do the same.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. India was administered by the English in case you can't remember your
history. My ancestors came in the mid 1800s when Poland was dominated by Germany.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. My mistake -- I thought your ancestors arrived later than that.
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dark_highway Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
59. I disagree.
I think when you are trying to immigrate to a country, and be a part of it, it is reasonable to expect one to learn the language spoken by the majority of people. My first language is Spanish, it is difficult to learn English, but if i can do it and my family can do it, i am not going to buy the excuses that others are making for certain immigrants, and even certain ILLEGAL immigrants.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. Welcome to DU!
:toast:
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #59
73. I should have made pointed out in the OP that I think immigrants should
learn English.

But my point was that I believe the people who scream the loudest that "Mexicans need to learn English," feel these "Mexicans" are not trying.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #59
75. Welcome dark_highway.
Spanish was my first language too. I agree English was a very difficult language to learn. My parents were US citizens and they learned Spanish, German and French because of their travels. It just seems logical to learn the language of the country you are in. But I do have a friend from Chile who barely speaks English. I don't know why she hasn't bothered to learn. She has become a US citizen and has lived here for a good 25 years. I keep pushing her to learn but she doesn't.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
63. I work for an adult literacy program.
We match up volunteer tutors with people who desperately want to improve their English. Even here, in a very white, wealthy Republican area, we have a waiting list of almost 100 students. Most of them wait for about a year before we have an available tutor for them. They do want to learn. We don't have enough resources to help them.
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Vogon_Glory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
77. On The Other Hand, Look At Amurrican Linguistic Skills
Edited on Tue May-02-06 08:45 AM by VogonGlory
What I find enjoyably ironic about the nativists screaming at immigrants to learn English are their own sorry performances when they try to speak foreign languages.

I myself am only marginally fluent in Spanish--and that took a lot of work. I rather doubt most of our fellow US citizens can do even that well.

What is really interesting, though, is watching other immigrants' linguistic skills. Some of the convenience stores I've visited have South Asian owners and clerks; I seriously doubt that they'd heard so much as one word of Spanish when they arrived in the US. But despite this handicap, they not only speak fluent English (Which they'd already learned before coming over), but they've also taken the trouble to learn at least some Spanish as well.

Little all-American Mikey and native-born Becky Sue have something to be embarrassed about.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. Hey, I take offense, my name is Mike!!!!! ;)
I totally agree with you......I think if you can say "Chalupa" at the Taco Bell drive thru, Americans think....."see, I'm bilingual"

It's really pathetic.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #77
101. What I find ironic
are their own sorry performances when they try to speak or write ENGLISH.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
84. The day Americans know English...
... is the day we can with intellectual honesty consider bitching at others for not.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
94. Lots of Americans can't understand each others' English
I always have a problem when I travel South. It takes a few interactions to re-tune my ear. I've also had others ask me to repeat words that my local accent changes. It's one reason that I've always had trouble spelling. Phonics isn't much help when some sounds of e, a and i sound alike!
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
96. Actually, I overheard some hick rednick idiot
yelling at a hispanic cashier at a McDonalds because she didn't understand what he was saying.

To be honest, I didn't have a clue what he was saying either. He was mumbling and drawling badly, and i don't even know if he was using proper grammar or enunciation at all. Didn't even seem to be trying.


"yahlisseniwananumbafawwinocheanexpickleanacoke"


She asked him to say it again, so he did, the same way, then got angry and yelled

"Why don't you people speak English!"


I was unable to retrain myself from saying "you first"
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
98. English?? Bawwww!
Edited on Tue May-02-06 04:50 PM by ronnykmarshall
At'swhay allway isthay ussfay aboutway earninglay englishway?
Iway etgay icksay andway iedtray ofway eoplepay ellingtay emay
otay EAKSPAY ENGLISHWAY!

Odgay amnday itway! Iway asway aisedray otay eakspay igpay
atinlay andway ybay odgay, I'mway onnagay eakspay igpay atinlay!
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #98
106. You gays are always trying to force your non-English speaking lifestyles
on the rest of us!!!!! :wtf:

:P
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rniel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
99. It is good advice to learn english
for foreigners coming here, but at the same time we should have some empathy and respect for them cause they are human beings. It was pretty hard for me to learn to speak spanish so it must be just as hard for them to learn english. Throw me in the middle of south america and I'd feel lost and panic stricken over the language barrier and may try to avoid using spanish as much as I could get away with. Last year we were walking around and my wife saw a guy with a t-shirt that said "speak english or die" English is her 2nd language and she pointed out the shirt to me.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
100.  My Mexican Mom and Mexican's of Her Generation
never spoke Spanish, their parents who immigrated here - made them learn to speak English. Most didn't know Spanish as a 2nd language. My Mexican mom slapped me for using Mexican slang....don't talk like a "stupid Mexican" she would yell.

I think if you're going to live in a different country you should learn the language. If I lived in Japan or Germany, I would learn to speak their language.

My only wish would be American's would be to please learn English.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #100
118. You had a good mother.
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DisgustedTX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
104. We all agree. Learn English
Thank you.
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Yollam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
107. As an American living in Japan, I don't think it's too much to ask...
...that immigrants make at least some effort to learn and use English. And to be fair, the vast majority of them do. The government, since it does not police the borders, and insists on allowing 1 million LEGAL immigrants every year, should provide more free English classes for immigrants.

Here in Japan, the local people do their best to use English for me, but I never relied on that hospitality, and I didn't seek out clutches of Americans so I could live in a little English-speaking bubble. I studied and became fluent. It is incumbent on immigrants to do so, in whatever country they move to.

I agree with you that we should not be beating up on recent immigrants for not understanding the humor on Seinfeld. But there are a few recalcitrant folks who have lived here for 20 years and never bothered to learn a word of English. Pretty pathetic, IMO. (and the same goes for the Americans I know who have lived over here for 20 years and still don't know any Japanese other than the greetings. Pathetic.)
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
108. ay ay Mexican are target from every angle
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
109. workers vs corporations. all else is trivia
i always like to act the gadfly and get all lippy when i see the distractions working -even on us liberals
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IndyJones Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
110. No one says they need to be perfectly fluent, but they should
be able to speak in English or they will be stuck in low paying slave labor wage jobs forever.

In your example, you mention a cashier. If the cashier wants to earn more money, then learning to speak English better than "broken English" is in his or her best interest. I don't think that most people would think they are stupid. I haven't heard that at all.

I live near the border in San Diego.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #110
115. It takes time to learn and speak non "broken" English
If you moved to Amsterdam tomorrow, how long do you think it would take you to learn and then speak perfect Dutch?

It wouldn't be quick....and I bet the Dutch citizens would be quite understanding.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
116. They should learn English
Not because they just "should"
Not because they NEED to assimilate
Not because every other large immigrant group did so.

They should learn English for the same reason I would learn Spanish if I moved to a spanish/french/russian/etc country. It would make your life that much more easy. Jobs, connections, mobility, freedom and so much more. Anyone who advocates for moving to a foreign country and don't learn the language is a fool, plain and simple.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. Just exactly who is advocating not learning English?
My point is only this:

It's a bogus argument that immigrants who move here from Spanish-speaking countries refuse or don't feel it's necessary to learn English.

That's hog wash.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. That may be
but there are always immigrants who reject the option of assimilation. I have a friend whose Italian parents, who have lived in America for over thirty years, ensconsed themselves in an Italian dominated neighborhood in NYC and made zero attempt to learn the language. It is easy for people to do, but it is also a poor decision to make as it really limits their choices and opportunities.
I was just commenting that I never understood it.
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