"Does the Glass Ceiling Still Exist?"

[BlueIris]

I hate to post and run, but I'm too angry about the nasty, misogynist assholes I had to deal with today to post anything coherent about this MSN piece at the moment. I might later. Just letting everyone know I might not be back for a couple of days. I'm trying to remain sane in order to finish some projects I need to complete. Happens to the best of us.

http://msn.careerbuilder.com/custom/msn/careeradvice/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=672&SiteId=cbmsnhm4672&sc_extcmp=JS_672_hotmail1&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=c3b56e062c004bd997b084a227632b4f-189902507-tm-1

[Hello_Kitty]

1. "the Real Glass ceiling" that Savage guy refers to

Keeps more women out than men. Yes, there are individual males who can't navigate corporate culture and individual females who can. But they don't call it an old boys' network for nothing. I work in a large high tech company. You'd think they'd be far more concerned with results and talent than shmoozing but that's not the case at all. There's a running joke amongst those of us in the "out" groups how not being a white male who plays golf puts you at a serious disadvantage. Only it's not really a funny joke because it's true. :grr:

[Nikia]

2. Women face differing expectations

We are judged both as employees and as women. Men have it easier because usually good man=good employee for the position. For women, being a good woman and a good employee are often contradictory. For example, they may say that they want an assertive employee for a particuliar position. If a woman is too assertive though, she will be judged negatively as a woman where as a man can be as minimally assertive as they want to much more assertive than would be acceptable for a woman.

[ismnotwasm]

3. I can't believe the title.

Or this:

"Hala Moddelmog, former president of Church's Chicken, says she never
experienced any problems because she is a woman. And upon becoming CEO of Hewlett-Packard, Carly Fiorina flatly declared, "I hope we're at the point that everyone has figured out that there is no glass ceiling."

What the fuck? So Ms. Fiorina gets a coveted (I'm assuming)CEO position, as ignores all stats and others experiences to the contrary? --I made it, screw you? Nothing to see here folks, move along? I don't understand. I know somethings these positions are a result of who you know, as well as experience and ability, but she honestly believes women are making top management positions enough to dismiss any problems with advancement and promotion on the basis of gender?

Very strange.

[spooky3]

4. I'd ask her these questions:

1) does the fact that women are a tiny minority of Fortune 500 CEOs have any relevance to this question?

2) are you saying that 1) is accounted for by the fact that if they were as truly capable, smart and talented as yourself, more women would be CEOs?

3) if you were so capable, why were you fired by HP? (on edit--and was Hala fired too? if so, why?)

on edit: this is actually a surprisingly good short article by MSN standards. At least they questioned the anti-woman attitudes and described some compelling stats.

[Nikia]

5. Corporate culture allows a few women to be honorary men

The book Paradoxes of Gender discusses this point. Men are comfortable occaisionally mentoring a young woman and helping her through the good old boy network . There can only be a few of these women at any given time though. The group of men fears that once a too big of percent of them is female that their status will go down.