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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 02:39 PM
Original message
Looking for a hybrid bike NOT made in China
Hey bikers! I am looking for a bike, a hybrid (I have a 14 y/0 old Trek 700 that needs to be retired).

I checked while I was in the USA this past week, and everything except the high end carbon framed bikes are now manufactured in China. Quite honestly the difference in quality between my bike and the ones I was looking at -- is frightening. The joints on the new bikes have sloppy welding, whereas mine are smooth. I just don't want to buy ANYTHING anymore that is made in China.I'd rather pay more money and buy a bike that was made by an American.

Anyone have ideas? Or should I just suck it up and get a carbon frame bicycle? I am a trail rider, leisure level, but find myself using my bike more and more these days the higher the price of gasoline climbs.

Many thanks - 48percenter
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Cannondale and high end Treks are your choice..
Edited on Sun May-11-08 12:27 AM by happyslug
Cannondale got out of the low end bike market over 20 years ago, they knew they could NOT compete with the Chinese at that level. Trek stayed in the low end market, but with made in China Bikes (high end Treks are made in the USA and match Cannondales when it comes to fit and finish (through my local bike dealer says the Cannondales are slightly better made).

Thus you have two basic Choices, Trek and Cannondale:

For Cannondale:
http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/08/cusa/index.html

For the Adventure series Cannondale Hybrids (use frames for 700 cc wheels).
http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/08/cusa/model-8AS2.html

For Comfort series Cannondale Hybrids (sue frames for 26 inch wheels):
http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/08/cusa/model-8CS4.html


For Trek Bicycles:
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/

For "bike Paths" bikes:
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/bike_path/

For "Urban" bikes
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/urban/

Cannondale and Trek and the big boys in the US bicycle industry right now, there are some custom shops that do as good if not better bikes, but have smaller production numbers AND higher prices.

I ride with a front Generator built into the front Hub. Thus I do not have to worry about the battery going dead (Through the wheel and hub are much higher than a cheap light and batteries). I obtain
my wheels from White wheels, who also sells some small market bicycles you may be interested in:

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/

The frames he is selling ($1500 start):
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/tout-terrain.asp
He makes a mistake on the web cite, while the first frame on the site has a Rohloff rear rear hub, the second bike from on the site, the Panamericana, does NOT, it clearly has a traditional derailleur drive train NOT a 14 speed Rohloff Rear Hub even through the Site says it does have a Rohloff Rear Hub. Minor mistake.


The front hub Generator:
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp

On the Rohloff 14 speed internal hub:
http://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/index.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/rohloff.html

Yes my next bike, when I can afford it, will have Schmidt front Generator hubs and a rear Rohloff 14 speed hub. The internal Hub has the advantage that you can change the gear while standing still, and it is harder for dirt to get into the gears to cause problems. Derailleurs are lighter weight and reliable even in winter, but the fact I can change gears while waiting for traffic of a light to clear is a factor in favor of the internal hub.

If you decide for a front hub generator, get it installed by Peter White into a wheel of your choice. It is better then trying to fit it into one of your own wheels.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Wow, thanks for all the great info.
Hi happyslug :hi:

I had scoured Treks site before I went to view the bikes last week. I was really disappointed in the low quality of the frame welding.

Do you know offhand if the Cannondales (eg Quick 4) is made in China? I can't find it anywhere on their website. I guess I will just have to call a store and inquire.

Again, thanks so much for the tips, I had pretty much narrowed it down to either a higher end Cannondale or Trek. (We are really actively trying to avoid buying Chinese goods)

48percenter
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. All Cannondale bike FRAMES are made in Bedford County PA USA.
Edited on Sun May-11-08 09:34 PM by happyslug
The history of Cannondale dates to the 1970s when it was formed to build a child trailer. Soon afterward it enters bike frame production. Aluminum had been know to be make a stiffer bicycle frame for decades (and thus more efficient at getting pedaling power into forward motion). The problem was the rear hanger. This was, and is, the weak points on all bikes, even in steel bikes what tend to break first was the rear hanger (i.e. where the rear wheel attached to the Bike frame). The stress put on the hanger, its small size do to having to be able to get around a wheel, required a very strong material. High Tension steel was the first material to do this function well. While Aluminum was stronger then Steel by mass, the same level of Aluminum mass took up four times the volume of Steel's mass. At the hanger volume was the main restriction NOT mass. Thus Aluminum frames had to have volumes at the hanger equal to Steel and as such Aluminum frames at the hanger were WEAKER then the same volume of Steel. This weakness meant that aluminum frames tended to break long before Steel Frames broke at the hanger.

Furthermore, unlike Steel, which could be repaired by just having another hanger brazed on, an aluminum frame bike, given the natural of aluminum, had to be completely rebuilt. The reason for this is the heat to braze the hanger would ruin the aluminum integrity and thus its strength in an aluminum frame bike. For these two inter-related reasons aluminum was NOT used for bicycles for decades after steel became the main frame for bicycles ("High Tension" Steel had become the normal frames for bicycles by 1908)

Cannondale solved this problem by building its Aluminum Frame bikes without a rear hanger, and then attaching the rear hanger onto the rest of the frame by pressure (The hanger would go into the larger frame posts but the post were designed to wrap around the hanger so it was an very tight fir, but being a physical fit could be popped out and a new one installed without ruining the rest of the frame. This procedure required a very tight fit (i.e. very tight specs). This solution was an ingenious solution to the problem, and Cannondale aluminum bikes took off. Sometime in the late 1980s or early 1990s the patent expired and other bike makers moved into the market but that was made Cannondale the largest US makers of bicycles (With Trek #2). The downsized is that Cannondale was so wedded to Aluminum that when Carbon-Fiber started to come out in the late 1990s Cannondale was slow to adopt the new technology. Trek embraced Carbon-Fiber big time in the mid 1990s (and saw it win them various races). Cannondale has only caught up in the last 3-4 years, but the delay was more to other reasons.

Those other reasons was do to Cannondale Success with Aluminum bike frames it started to get into other aspects of biking, including Panniers and other bike bags (All sewed in the USA). Cannondale made "CODA" parts, generally considered inferior to Shimano parts. Cannondale tended to use its own name on high end parts (its Frames and bags) and saved the Coda name for less well made products.

Cannondale in the mid early 1990s went into wheelchairs production. The President of the Company had a disabled relative (It has been years since I read about this, so the details may be wrong) complaining about how heavy and badly made his wheelchair was. Cannondale then designed a new wheelchair using its expertise in bike frames, and came out with a new lightweight wheelchair. There was some opposition to it from other wheelchair makers AND Medicare (Who have never heard of Cannondale before it started to make frames) so Cannondale gave most of its early chairs away to people who wanted them (They were narrower and lighter then other makes of wheelchairs at that time). After several events where wheelchairs were used for things like basketball etc, Medicare finally accepted Cannondale Wheelchairs as real Wheelchairs. The market was very small, compared to bicycles, but it was a marketing coup is that it shows Cannondale was not just worried about profit, but people.

From the success of the Wheelchairs Cannondale then tried to get into the ATV market in the late 1990s. I was working in Bedford at the time and it was a big subject in the local newspaper, including the debate over whether Cannondale should import its engines OR make its own engines. Wall Street wanted Cannondale to buy from Honda, Cannondale liked its reputable as "Made in the USA" so it tried to set up its own engine plant. Some Cannondale ATVs were sold, but most had unreliable engines so the venture failed and lead Cannondale into Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Out of the Chapter 11 bankruptcy a new Cannondale Corporation was formed. At the time of its formation several companies approached the Bankruptcy Court to buy the Corporation for its name, but its name was its most important asset. Several investors in the original Cannondale company arranged for a new Cannondale Corporation to be formed with private financing. This New Company purchased the rights to Cannondale's name and its bicycle assets (The President that had gone into Wheelchair and then ATV production was gone). Since 1999 this Company has been slowing re-building Cannondale. It was this venture into ATV production had to be overcome, but production quality of its bikes never fell, so it has been a slow but steady return to being an exclusive Bike frame company.

Today, Cannondale no longer makes its bags in the USA (Gone are the "Made in USA" little flags on its bags). Coda parts are a thing of the past. I have not heard of the Wheelchairs since the Bankruptcy (And the ATV is long forgotten). While Cannondale has ventured into selling its name overseas for others to use for bags, I have NOT seem any other non made in USA products with the Cannondale Name on it. The present owners purchased Cannondale for its name AND the fact the name Cannondale was tied in with "Made in USA" and thus have tried to keep it as much "Made in USA" as possible.

I have seen more and more SRAM parts on Cannondales. SRAM is based in California and makes components in California. SRAM has taken over some old European parts makers and become more "global" in production, but still a American Company for much of its components (With heavy German production). Shimano still is the # 1 maker of bicycle Components, learned how from Schwinn in the 1960s when Schwinn first went to Japan for a cheaper maker of parts for its bikes). With france and Italy considered to two top place for bike components it is impossible to get a 100% made in USA bicycle, thus the best you can do is to make sure as much of the bike is Made in the USA. Please note most, if not all, made in the USA bicycles are better made then the ones in China, but when the largest bicycle factory in the world is in China it is hard to undercut its prices (Cannondale tried and lost in the early 1990s). At the same time, the quality is not there, thus Cannondale and Treks are some of the only exports the US has.

The present management of Cannondale wants to concentrate on the bicycle business and has been doing so since the bankruptcy. Hopefully it will continue and maybe get into other aspects of biking, such as components, when it can.

SRAM Website:
http://www.sram.com/en/

Shimano website:
http://bike.shimano.com/

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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Good, all the better then since I am a Pennsylvanian :)
I want to keep another PA'er in his/her job -- I love the Cannondale Quick 4 in the patriot blue. And the price is decent too. My husband and I will fight over who is going to take possession of this, either he gets my old Trek or I keep it and he gets the Cannondale. Guess I have to prove that I ride the bike more and he'll let me keep the Cannondale. ;)

I am not so much concerned about the European parts, or even gears, tires: made in Taiwan, I just have a real hair up my ass about buying Chinese goods. I think products are inferior quality, and the environmental trade-off to buy a cheapo item, when you can buy one made closer to home -- it's just a no brainer for me. With oil rapidly heading towards $200 a barrel, I think the US would be wise to start bringing manufacturing back to the States, pretty soon it won't be much of an option but a necessity. I can tell you in Germany that the economy is strong, we have trade protections. There are still things here from China, but not nearly as many as in the US. Take cars for example, Germans are loath to buy anything other than a BMW, Mercedes, Audi or Porsche. Even if they have to buy the entry models, they love buying what is made here (although the latest funny thing I found out is because the exchange rate is so bad Euro vs. USD, the new X series from BMW is made in Spartanburg, SC, and SHIPPED to Germany! How's that for a switch?)

I am really disappointed in Trek. So it looks like the Cannondale fits my ethical requirements and my wallet. Once again, thank you so much for all the valuable information. I appreciate your time and effort!

:hi: 48percenter
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Cannondale is in Europe, some with parts NOT available in the US
Edited on Tue May-13-08 01:35 PM by happyslug
A few years ago Cannondale even offered a bike with a Roloff rear and a Shimano Nexus front Generator. You could get them on a European Model of Cannondale, but was NOT available in the USA. This was part of Cannondale trying to cater to different demands of different markets (On the other hand when Cannondale had a Recumbent, the Recumbent was ONLY available in the US). Look at Cannondale's Web site for Europe to see what is available in Europe, it is different from what is available in the US.

Cannondale web site (I skipped over it above, gave the webs site for the USA models, go to Europe and pick the language you want to read):
http://www.cannondale.com/

Cannondale Web Site for Europe in English:
http://gb.cannondale.com/bikes/index.html

I reviewed the European models and and Cannondale is still selling bikes in Europe with front Generators that I can NOT get in the USA. Cannondale are also selling bikes with 8 speed Shimano Internal hubs, which I can NOT get in the USA (I do not think even after market). You can get Cannondales with Fenders and Chain Guards in Europe, neither available on USA models (and just try to find a chain guard in the US, almost impossible I have tried).
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I could buy it here
But with the euro so strong, I'd rather buy it in the US, save a US job and save some dough in the process. Then drive it through the biggest mudpuddle I can find so customs doesn't nail me when I ship it back. LOL.

The bike market in Europe is a joke, the same bikes are always at least 25% more, then you look at the exchange rate. Cannondales are super expensive here. Must be the Tour d' France influence? I think I am pretty much set on a Cannondale, I like the frame details.

I think I'll buy in the US.

:hi:
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The European Models have frame made in the USA
But then the extras are added in Europe, shipped straight from Japan or where ever the part is made (Which can be Germany, France or Italy, I have NOT seen any Chinese made parts on a Cannondale). Then the bikes are distributed. I have installed Fenders on my Cannondale. I like the fenders for they keep the water off my back even after the rain has stopped (I biked all winter long, but come ice and snow I switch to studded tires out of Finland, greater roll Resistance, but almost no slippage on ice). I have also installed front and rear racks, both made in Germany. My point is you can change the bike to fir what you need after you buy the frame, but the Frame is the single most important part of the bike.

I would look at both sets of models, both the European and USA models. I like the front hub being a generator so I have light even if I forget to change the batteries, but I purchased my generator after market, wheels and all. The Schmidt is made in Germany and with the new LED lights a better match then the Shimano Nexus generator on some of the European Cannondale Models.

Now I have NOT seen it in the last few years, mostly do to NOT being in Bike stores in the Spring, but Cannondale use to sell frames only to those people who wanted just the Frame (You technically had to turn in a old frame to get the new Cannondale frame, but the rule was NOT rigidly enforced). That is how I Purchased my Bike, frame only for $400 in the mid 1990s. I had access to some vary junky bike parts that I used till I could afford better parts then I slowly upgraded the components (Including getting a Schmidt Front Generator in a heavy duty Wheel). I would look into what you want on the bike and and then buy the nearest one to those specs you can afford and then slowly upgrade.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I'll check it out, but I am afraid
when I see the price, I'll stroke out. When we had my Trek overhauled last spring, the Cannondales in the shop were upwards of 3000 euros. (4200USD?)

People take their bikes very seriously here. I'll let you know what I see and find out.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Green light for whatever I want :)
What are the advantages of going with a bike that has suspension? I haven't come across anything (at least hybrid-wise) that has front & rear suspension. I just found a beautiful Cannondale Road Warrior 800 online, but unfortunately it is a 2007 model, and is sold out. :(

I am heading downtown on Monday to check out some of the European Cannondales.

If you know of any hybrids that might have suspension, can you clue me in?

Thanks again!
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Question is what are you really looking for?
Most people do not need any form of Suspension. Presently I am using a 15 year old Cannondale frame, which I rebuilt about 7 years ago with Shimano XT parts. I have varied from front Suspension to no suspension on it. I use it mostly on paved roads and for that you do not really need suspension. I no notice a joint when I hit a pothole (Johnstown has done a lot of "deferred maintenance" do to its economic problems, so I hit a lot of small potholes). The front suspension did NOT seem to reduce the joint of potholes, so I removed it. I now go with no suspension (Through I do have a high end Made in USA copy of Brooks leather seat with heavy duty springs, it seems to help, but I think it is more the leather then the springs).
Now Front Suspension came into biking in the late 1980s. The Movement was from off road racing who wanted to reduce the shock of hitting rocks bumps holes etc in such racing. Such racers needed to control the bike even as it went at full speed downhill even if they hit a hole, a rock, a tree trunk etc. Suspension really was NOT design to ease bumps on paved roads (Through if you hit a major pothole the suspension will help). My problem is at the speed I peddle at (12-15 mph on the flats, 20-25 downhill) I can see such potholes before I hit them. Thus Potholes are rarely a problem. Cobblestones roads are a little bit more of a problem but not much. I avoid them, but when I cannot I just peddle along.

Rear suspension came later. Again came out of off road racing, but this time for control during peddling off road. Racers want to peddle as much as possible. They also want the peddling to be effective. The problem is that when you peddle off road sometime the rear (drive) wheel goes up with the bike making the peddle motion useless. Rear Suspension was to permit the rear bike to stay in contact with the ground as the bike itself is bounced up and down in the race. Rear suspension is not really that much of an advantage unless you plan to race down perfectly good hillsides.

My Sister rides a Cannondale Adventure with a front Suspension. She likes it. It uses 700 cc wheels. Cannondale has the Comfort series with 26 inch wheels (It also comes with Front Suspension). If you want suspension I recommend front suspension and get a Brooks seat with heavy springs. It is a better combination then the bikes with read suspension.

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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Unless you plan on doing a lot of trail riding avoid suspension
I have a reasonable dual suspension x-country bike, and while it's really nice on some single track, suspension noticeably eats energy that would otherwise be going towards forward motion.
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