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Sugarcoated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-01-06 11:23 PM
Original message
Why do non-believers have to be so rude?
Just wondering.
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-02-06 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. I would swear there was a thread on that very subject in one of the...
spiritual groups recently but darned if I can find it. That one started because of some thread in the Theology & Religion forum.

Well, anyway, my opinion is that it's usually something like insecurity or low self-esteem. BTW, it happens the other way around too.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-02-06 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. There was one - but it has disappeared.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-02-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. Why do believers kill gays, steal millions, and vote for Republicans? :)
(In other words, it's a bad idea to paint with such a broad brush, especially in this group) ;)

If you're trying to start a conversation, I can't imagine what direction you think it was headed.
I guess it makes more sense that it was a rhetorical question.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-02-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The first discussion that disappeared was based on the
results of a topic that I raised over in Religion/Theology. I can't even remember what the question was now. But the whole discussion was sort of "raided" by a lot of very "rude" answers - really, it was totally uncalled for. That was the beginning of this. The original author was questioning why some people found it necessary to be so rude when there was no call for it.
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Sugarcoated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-02-06 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. leftyladyfrommo
I know, I posted on that thread and it went "poof". Thought I'd repost it, it was a fair crit. I went through the same thing as you with the fundie-athiests.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-02-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Was your sole intention to glibly criticize "non-believers"?
Was it an honest question to stimulate conversation?
Or was it simply a less thoughtful vent of frustration?
I ask because I know you're intrigued by Dr. Dwyer's ideas.
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Sugarcoated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. leftyladyfrommo started a thread, as she stated
Edited on Fri Feb-03-06 11:22 PM by Sugarcoated
that, I suspect, was deleted for some reason. It shouldn't have been. It's a valid observation. Some non-believers, many more than not, are incredibly rude to people with different beliefs that don't match theirs. I encountered it in the religion forum and read many posts there, contentious for the sake of it. I've encountered it in real life. I brought it up on another message board, just sort of 'what do you think about such and such', I encountered out and out ridicule. It looks like intolerance to me. And, it reminds me of the fundies who, if you don't believe as they do, try to jam their beliefs down their throat. Many athiests seem to do the same.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Ok, true. However, some believers are incredibly rude
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 01:52 AM by greyl
and kill gays, steal millions, vote for Republicans, openly hate other believers who believe something different, bomb abortion clinics, wage genocide, ... and even drive SUVs to WalMart to buy Sean Hannity's latest book.

To give one answer to your question, it may help to remember to not take it personally. How big of an issue is "rudeness" really, all things considered? Keep in mind the status that "non-believers" hold as recognized by our government. There is no chance, yet, that an open atheist could be elected to office. Do you know of any Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims in office in this country? It's because one set of believers won't tolerate it. The people against gay marriage? Mostly "believers" of one sort or another, right?
Without me making a list, quick think of the 5 worst Americans alive right now, in your opinion.
Are any of them non-believers?
Is Osama bin Laden a non-believer?

I don't think it's realistic to expect that one won't encounter "rudeness" on an open discussion board like this one. When people are talking about issues involving life, death, and beliefs, expect occasional rudeness from all angles of the debate. If they're showing their ass, you've scored a point and chances are there are other "non-believers" cringing along with you. If the rudeness is a personal attack hit alert and set a good example.

I just think it's misguided to make a statement that implies that "believers" are generally nicer than "non-believers".
All things considered.


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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Why is it necessary to ever be rude - especially on
an open board?

There is one person on another board I post that is extremely rude to everyone. And he proclaims himself to be a "good" Catholic. Since his messages are just plain nasty for no apparent reason - other than to upset people - I would question just how "good" a Catholic he really is.

But I have noticed that rudeness seems to be OK on the internet. Maybe it is now politically correct? Maybe it is because you can be so anonymous that you feel free to let your baser side out. I don't know.

I don't think it's necessary. Not on the internet. Not really anywhere. It is a form of disrespect.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Who says it's necessary? nt
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Sugarcoated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Rudeness is just wrong - and I felt was a valid subject to discuss
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 10:35 PM by Sugarcoated
and wrong to censor.

When people are just plain mean, intolerant, having a bad day/life and want company - I'll call em on it, or, if it's obvious they're all about getting their rocks off on being antagonistic jerks I won't respond to them. Just like I'd do in real life. It seems to be common sport to jump all over a person with unorthodox beliefs/speculation/or interests.

FYI - we're not the fundi/religious extremeists of the world. We're the good guys, live-and-let-live types. If we weren't, we wouldn't be Democrats.



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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yes, we're on the same side of at least one major ideology.
It's from that similar side that I say it's shallow to imply that non-believers are more rude than believers. No big woop.

I recognize that the original statement "Why do non-believers have to be so rude?" was a call for camaraderie in this group against "others", vague though it was. I don't think it was a real question. The OP wasn't wondering how other people here explained the rudeness of non-belivers. The original thread included the answer that insecurity and low self-esteem were to blame, but can an honest inquiry result in the conclusion that all "believers" are self-secure, mentally healthy, and have strong self-esteem while on the other hand, "non-believers" can be identified by those flaws of personality?

I think it's at least as valuable to suggest that pat rhetorical questions like "Why do non-believers have to be so rude?" oversimplify the global situation we share, and add a false veneer of separation when it would work better to deal with how the world really is.

In other words, "Why do people have to be so rude?" is a better question because it draws no inauthentic lines between people.

People can be rude, mean people suck, we're all on board with those slogans. But to cut a deeper facet, consider Cindy Sheehan at the SOTU for a moment. (I'm totally in support of her) It's plausible that many millions of people in this country think she was being "rude" when she unzipped her jacket to keep cool. We've all heard from the other side that it's "rude" and worse to criticize the strategery that uses our troops as valueless fodder. Iow, rudeness is often defined by the one who feels threatened by a an opposing statement. Knowing that, "rudeness" is not on my list of priorities to eradicate.

*the origianl thread got deleted because because a believer or two got rude to the point of breaking the DU code of polite discussion. Why, oh why, did they have to be that way? ;)


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Sugarcoated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I've seen it happen to me again and again
by athiests AND fundies alike - and let me add the fundi-scientists. I get it from both sides for the horrible quality of having an open mind. Yes, it sucks, but, it's usually obvious to me the underlying issues that impel people to feel the need to jam their beliefs down my throat. I've never met someone like me, though, just a seeker with an opem mind, (or a Buhddist or Taoist for that matter) who's taken that tack. Live and let live. Don't try to ram "your" shit down my throat.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. fundi-scientists ?
What are they?

When you say "jam their beliefs down my throat", are you saying that a non-believer has cost you your job, forced you to go out of state for medical procedures, prevented you for running for office, curtailed your right to free speech etc.

Or are you this upset because of a discussion on a discussion board?
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. We would all probably be better off if none of us tried to
"jam" our beliefs or wants down other people's throats.

I find that both sides are about equally bad about this. So I simply try to stay below the fray.

The arguments on both sides are pointless.
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
37. Just keep in mind that
_anyone_ who tries to ram their beliefs down hour throat (this includes " nonbelief") is obviously trying to overcome some sense of insecurity about them. The reinforcement one gets from knowing other people agree with you is a nice feeling, especially if you're uneasy about those beliefs yourself.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Maybe there's no "free will", so why be bothered?
Edited on Sun Feb-12-06 06:07 AM by greyl
Rude people have no choice, right? ;)

edit: oh I forgot, there's no choice but to be bothered, right.

(this refers to the "free will" thread here)
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-23-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
47. The rudest non-believers I've met tend to have come from fundie families
Which I find very interesting -- cultural, maybe? Upbringing? Or genetic?

Sort of like the black and white thinking (I'm right, I know everything, I know the truth) stays with them even when the religion is gone.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-03-10 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
77. Probably angry
One thing to keep in mind, many who are non-believers didn't start out that way. It's a ting that can come after years of believer status. More often than not, when the shift happens from believer to non-believer there is a strong tendency for the now non-believer to be angry at having been duped for so long.

Of course there are non-believers who just like confrontation with believers for no apparent reason. Those I can't really explain.

Julie--a non-believer who doesn't much care what others believe
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
55. While it's often overlooked -- especially of late -- Atheists of the communist
Edited on Sat Nov-15-08 08:41 AM by whathehell
persuasion did exactly the same abominable things in places like China (killed gays) Russia, etc.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
17. Why do believers have to be so rude?
Just wondering.
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toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
18. A loaded question, but perhaps a reasoned response will help
Rude is subjective. For some people, the mere fact that atheists exist is extremely offensive to them. I've been told many, many times that I'm not really an atheist and what's more, there are no atheists, only hedonistic people who hate God. A variation on this is to constantly be challenged by people who are not atheists on what exactly atheism is. When you have to confront this kind thinking anytime you mention that you are an atheist, chances are, overtime, you will become quite rude to people who bristle at the fact that your mere existence is an affront to their beliefs. I suspect most atheists start out as live and let live people, but are gradually pushed over the edge by a culture that hates their very existance and even goes out of its way to deny our personal philosophy as valid. I refuse to apologize for reacting somewhat rudely in the face of these kinds of comments on what exactly I believe and what I don't. You try to patronize me, I'll take you out, rhetorically speaking.

But I think where the real disconnect here is, is what you define as rudeness. Chances are, you probably have spiritual beliefs that I find nonsensical, irrational, or just plain loony. There's not much either you or I can do about that. I'm quite sure that there are somethings I believe that you might find quite silly yourself. The problem that often arises, however, is when you mistake my opinion of some of your beliefs as my opinion of you. I do not think you are irrational, ignorant, or somehow inferior to myself. But that's a hard concept for a spiritual person to deal with when confronted with someone who finds one particular facet of their personal philosophy ridiculous. It can be interpreted as an insult to the person and not the belief. I understand that and wish there was a way around it, but I am most certainly not going to silence myself just to make you happy. Freedom of conscience goes both ways and I consider it to be an absolute that should never be violated.

I've known many religious people who I consider to be far more intelligent than I. In fact, one or two I would call brilliant. On the other hand, that does not change the fact that their religious beliefs strikes me as irrational as a child who believes that the toothfairy puts money under their pillow in exchange for a tooth.

If it makes you feel any better, I do not have all the answers and neither do you. Kind of puts us within shouting distance, huh?
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. You know, Toddaa, I don't mean to be rude myself here, but
Edited on Wed Mar-29-06 11:22 PM by Maat
this was supposed to be a retreat for believers; it was not supposed to be a place for non-believers who want to tell us, 'I am most certainly not going to silence myself just to make you happy,' to come and be somewhat disrespectful. That's why you might want to read the mission statement. I would appreciate that.

For example, I don't go over to the 'Atheists' forum, and state that I am not going to silence myself about my religious beliefs to make them happy. See my point?

Would it be possible for non-believers to confine those statements to the 'Religion and Theology' forum?
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Thank You
and the Religion and Theology Forum should be called the "bash religion and theology" forum IMO
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. Because They Can
and they are anonymous here

they'd never be so brazen in the real world

I guess this is their place to be rude
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 04:09 AM
Response to Original message
22. One could ask the same question about believers.
If one wanted to paint others with a broad-brush. :shrug:
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. You could ask that about anyone.
It is not necessary to be rude to anyone at anytime. It is always a choice.

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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Indeed
But it is not just non-believers who choose to be rude. Everyone makes that choice, either from time to time or on a regular basis. It is disturbing to see one group broad brushed as in the OP.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I just think it is a lot easier for people to be rude on forums like
this where they can be unknown. No social price to pay.

But we need to be careful in our lives that we do not hurt others with our barbs and sarcasm. We can really hurt people with our criticism.

And we need to be responsible for that.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Of course
But it's not strictly a believer/non-believer issue, it's a people issue. Non-believers have been the brunt of nastiness as much as believers. Everybody needs to make an effort.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-11-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I live in the Bible Belt.
Some believers try and hit people over the head with their Bibles.

This is really fun place.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-11-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. My state sits on top of the Bible Belt
While I don't exactly get hit with Bibles, I am inundated with religion. I get hit with hymns, prayers, Amens, Praise God's, etc. Many people around here wear religion like a piece of clothing and cannot understand those who do not. To try to explain to them that you are not religious, or that you are but you like to keep your religion private is like explaining to them that you sacrifice and eat infants (at least the way they react).

This is also a really fun place.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-12-06 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Do what I do - just do not engage.
It is pointless.

I just go my own way and think my own thoughts.

But I lived in Salt lake City for 6 years so I had to learn to just ignore the religion around me. It was making me nuts.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-12-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. In most circumstances I don't engage
Edited on Wed Jul-12-06 11:17 PM by BuffyTheFundieSlayer
The only person I've engaged with is a coworker of mine who insists on singing hymns/reading the Bible aloud/shouting to religious programs on the TV loudly for hours during her work shift (loudly enough to be heard throughout the entire large house). I'm stuck there in the house and cannot leave to escape so I confronted her to let her know that her behavior was disruptive and disturbing me. Her response? "I do this all the time, when I'm at home, when I'm in my car, whenever. If you don't like it you can quit."

Of course I could have retorted that I listen to rock music with obscene lyrics at home and in my car, and would she like me to listen to it there at a loud volume, but I didn't. I could also have just brought in some CDs of such music and blasted them on the stereo, thereby drowning her out and having some "revenge", but I didn't. Instead I went to my supervisor and explained the problem. The supervisor told her to stop the behavior yet she persists. :banghead: Since it's my word against hers and she's never doing it when the supervisor comes in the supervisor feels she can't do anything more to discipline her. :eyes:

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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Tune her out. You can do it.
Or better yet, turn the other cheek.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. It's impossible to tune her out
I simply suffer in silence while I wait for the day that she quits. There's nothing more I can do.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. ear plugs?
works for me sometimes.

I would just hate trying to work like that.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I'd love to use ear plugs or a Walkman
But I need to be able to hear if something happens with one of the clients so that's not possible. :shrug:
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
34. Why do believers have to be so humorless?
Edited on Fri Jul-14-06 07:30 PM by salvorhardin
Just wondering.

I know this thread is old, but it's new to me. If you genuinely think someone is being rude for the sake of being rude, please hit alert and let the mods know.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. Oh, I do
and I put rude people on Ignore as well.

But what bothers me most is that a number of threads on R/T that started out being a discussion about one or more facets of religion or spirituality wind up basically getting hijacked by non-believers. There was a recent on about levels of consciousness that basically never got off the ground because of personal attacks by a couple of atheists against the OP. I alerted on every post they made (the OP person would not rise to their flames; they kept saying that the flamers were not on topic), and eventually the whole subthread was removed. But I feel that a number of people who wanted to discuss the topic were turned off by the flame war and didn't respond.

I don't mind a lively debate about religion/spirituality between believers and non-believers. But I do very much mind when discussion is basically blocked as it was in the example given. Perhaps there are times when an OP in R/T written by an atheist has been hijacked by believers, but I haven't seen one.

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Ignoring challenges gets one closer to God?
For the record, I think you do mind lively debate about religion and spirituality when your opinions are questioned or doubted. Your single example of a believer getting offended doesn't show that non-believers are more rude than believers. And why post this reply months later as if none of the other responses here existed?
After all the talk of your concept of God being superior to others - "God is everything" - , how can there be revulsion to anything or anyone?
How do you know that the real God behind what you and all believers struggle to conceptualize isn't challenging you?
Does it mean "God is everything that I approve of" rather than "Everything is God"?
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Lowell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
36. I find them no ruder
than believers.
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
38. Lets ask this. Why do human beings have to be so rude
to other human beings that don't agree with one another.


Your enemy or someone with whom you do not share the same belief is the best exercise in tolerance.
Hence read my signature.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. So, rudeness can be a mental construct of the perceiver, yes? nt
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. It can be
Or one just choses to take the behavior as something personal therefor taking on the insult as if taking on a wound. You carry it around, you keep picking the scab and the wound festers. Eventually you develop a prejudice on an entire sect of people based off of a few experiences.

In this case, Believers against non believers. Anytime someone believes they are superior over another, you will usually encounter the ego.

But that is just what I think, we all know that means to little to anyone who disagrees.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Does "All life is suffering" neglect to mention that it's noble
to assign rudeness to others?

(this is in regard to the First Noble Truth of Buddhism)
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Maybe - in a kind of way.
Being on the other end of a rude person is a kind of suffering.

One should, however, be compassionate to those who are rude to you.

But I don't think really was what Buddha was speaking to. It doesn't rise to the level of, say, starving in Darfur.
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. There is no reason to assign blame to
anyone.

Rudeness is an act of one feeling Superior over another. It's snide and can incorporates a large ego. Watch snarky comments in General discussion for an idea of how much ego is pushing the statements. Watch reaction to such comments (myself included)

Right action (8 fold path) would prevent one from absorbing a negative comment and internalizing it, potentially taking it personally.

Right action would neither assign rudeness nor blame, it would merely pass the comment up as "past" and not of the mindfulness of
"now"

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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. A lot of that is our culture now. People just aren't trained in
proper manners anymore. It is just OK to say whatever you think - and to anyone.

The internet has probably made it worse. Now people can be rude anonymously. You don't have to worry about someone punching out your lights because no one really knows who you are.

I personally just have a lot more respect for people who can be polite even when the situation gets bad.
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
44. Well, I think they feel threatened and with good reason
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 10:20 AM by OnionPatch
Fundamentalist Christianity is taking over our government and threatening to push us back to the witch-burning ages. Atheists are given no respect whatsoever from our government or many mainstream organizations. Most religions claim to have a monopoly on the "truth" and many seem willing to kill over it. That's enough to get me up in arms and I'm not even an atheist.

On the other hand, I do get a little ticked when people refer to anyone who believes in anything spiritual to be living in LA-LA Land, but it's their opinion. At least they aren't trying to take over our government. I just let that kind of talk slide right over me. They haven't been able to prove that there isn't more than meets the eye. In fact, I categorize those who insist there is no God (or universal power) or afterlife in the same category as those who insist there is no life anywhere in the universe except on Earth. They simply have no way of knowing that for sure.
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
46. It's a human thing.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-13-07 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
50. Some insights
As a non-believer I would like to share some insights with you that may help you to better understand the dynamics goin' on here.

Many who are atheists were not raised as such. To make the journey from believer to non-believer is an amazing thing, full of epiphanies. Just as I have often read in religious literature that believers are on different levels of their path to god, atheists also tend to be on different levels.

When I first began to realize that all I had believed all my life was false my first reaction was a bit bitter. I felt I had been chumped in a big way, so of course it was natural. Then, as I continure do journey down the road I experience different views of religion and those who subscribe to it. It's been some years now and I pretty much don't care what believers think, so long as nobody tries to force their views on me.

But it took some time to get here. Nastiness from believers tends to retard the progress on the road to enlightenment.

Julie
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
51. Wow, this thread's still around? OK, I think that...
the few rude "non-believers" here, and we all know there are some, stick out because many of the equally rude "believers" either don't come here or are banned for other reasons.

I have said before that I do suspect that many of our ruder non-believers here find this a safer place to vent than on many other boards. We're not overrun with religious zealots who will try to hammer them into submission. (Even though some of them might think so)



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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-13-07 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
52. I believe that history has many examples of why
Wars of religion have been fought in just about every country but the US. We've never experienced civil wars based upon religion--on policy, yes. But we've never experienced people being burned at the stake for not believing the state mandated religion. We've never had a sect of religion in bed with the leader of the country attempting to determine and define policy until 6 years ago. We've never had people tortured for not believing a certain religious doctrine in the US. This country was founded on many principles--one of them being a separation of church and state primarily because of what those who founded this country had either gone through themselves before coming over here or their families had been impacted by the centuries religious strife and then the civil wars in England/Scotland before William and Mary took the throne.

The rudeness comes from a number of areas. The culture nowdays is one of rudeness prevailing. It's on practically every show that's on today. Beligerence and vulgarity sells, whether it's a reality tv program or a fox noise show perpetrating as news. Manners have no existence any more, especially online. People say what they choose because they know they don't have to back that shit up like they would have to in person. I guess you could say that it's cowardice masquerading as bravado.

Because of the bad rap which the good religious people have to wear because of the Falwells, Robertsons, that knucklehead with the 'God hates fags' machine, those who choose not to believe what they do or not to believe at all are being judged and condemned for not 'going along with the plan'... instead of compassion for all mankind, compassion is only given when that person's religious ideals are in line with those doing the judging. If they aren't, their heart hardens, their compassion dries up and the xtian that they're supposed to be is no where to be found. After being met with that over and over and over again, the non-believer bristles at the next onslaught of judgement.

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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
53. Because believers are usually too dense to take a hint.
Just a thought.

:hi:
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
54. Because I like freedom, not theocracy.


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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Please...Despite the best efforts of some Wing nuts..We're not IN
Edited on Sat Nov-15-08 08:50 AM by whathehell
a "theocracy"..and it's highly unlikely we ever will be.

What's equally unlikely is that anyone on THIS Board, believer or not, would want that.

Rudeness is not the answer. :eyes:
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. And that makes it OK to be rude because?
You can believe anything you want to. No one cares. I don't care what other people believe. But it doesn't give you or anyone else the right to just be rude for no reason.

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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. Both are belief systems...
I don't think they are mutually exclusive
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
57. Some have been exposed only to the worst of religion; others have rage/ mental illness issues
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 10:31 AM by HamdenRice
Not all "non-believers" in the real world are so rude, but DU seems to have attracted a dedicated corps of discussion disruptors/religion haters who congregate and coordinate strategy to disrupt R/T discussion in certain other DU forums.

If you read what they have to say long enough, several of them relate personal histories that show that they have only been exposed to the worst of the worst that fundamentalist religion has to offer, such that they can scarcely even believe the existence or content of liberal mainstream religions such as the African American Baptist (of M.L. King)/African Methodist Episcopal/Black Church, the mainline Protestants, Reformed Judaism, Society of Friends, Universalists, American Muslim Mission and so on.

If you correlate what some of them say on yet other forums, you will find that several confess to serious issues with rage and mental disorders.

These rage issues cause them to take positions on certain issues that suggest that despite becoming "athiests" they still suffer from a sort of fundamentalism that shaped their earlier consciousnesses, and often write in ways that clearly border on the delusional.

As you can see from this thread, they won't even allow you to raise this question in this group, which is supposed to be protected in a way that allows supportive discussion to go forward.

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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. who is delusional..?
Edited on Sun Dec-28-08 03:38 PM by sam sarrha
"These rage issues cause them to take positions on certain issues that suggest that despite becoming "athiests" they still suffer from a sort of fundamentalism that shaped their earlier consciousnesses, and often write in ways that clearly border on the delusional."

you are really in Denial, those of us who were tortured by your religion as children know a truth and speak of it and you have the AUDACITY to call us DELUSIONAL. the fact you try to INVALIDATE our experience shows that YOU are the delusional one here.. your church just has more finesse.. same bullshit, but i hope it does make you a better person.. i just dont see it

and yes i do feel an obligation to warn others of the dangers of cults.. been there suffered that.!!
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. Exhibit Number 1
"...your church just has more finesse."

Actually, I'm an atheist. I just didn't have any bad experiences growing up in my church (African American Baptist at the time of the civil rights movement), and at some point simply stopped believing in god. I have no post traumatic stress disorder from religion, and have no ill feelings toward my former church nor toward religious people in general.

Your post shows that you have rage issues, and make assumptions that arguably are delusional (eg that I must be religious to make the observations I did) -- and as I pointed out, these aspects of your presentation are a result of trauma.

So I think you confirm everything I said in my post.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
59. i have PTSD from early childhood torture and abuse from Fundi Pentecost Churches, it is the nature o...
of religion to create a Theocracy to dominate the non-believers, basic Iron Law of Oligarchy.

i tell christians i want nothing to do with anything they have to offer, that usually just encourages them.. some understand right away, but if any persist i get right in their face immediately. and tell them to leave me the hell alone or i will call the police,

here is my caned statement about religion,


I DON'T NEED SOME BRONZE AGE GOAT HERDER'S INTERPRETATION OF WHAT SOME un-medicated SCHIZOPHRENIC's Hallucination meant ... ON HOW TO SAVE MY SOUL... i can go down to Skid Row and have that conversation, today, with a number of mentally ill unfortunates with no medical insurance for mental health. i actually did the Research at Modesto State Hospital in 1970 that the ReThuglicans spun into a scheme to throw them all out onto the streets. i've heard the same shit christians spout in several mental wards. it was my traumatic childhood abuse in Churches that led me into science..

......all the prophets of all the Abrahamic religions show symptoms of Schizophrenia, all people today who hear god tell them to kill their children are beyond doubt schizophrenic. the story of Abraham..Dah

and if Mohamed had not been the son of a rich man who FORCED people listen to his son before he gave starving people food during terrible famine , he would surely have been just another homeless person wandering the streets talking to the sky..from what i have read he was until the famine, and an Oligarchy was established around that wealth. he was related to Abraham and Schizophrenia runs in bloodlines.

archaic religion has nothing to offer me...
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CanSocDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Gee...


For a while there, I was wondering what this thread was all about.

.
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
64. Long time back, I wanted to understand atheists, but apparently they didn't
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 11:18 PM by MrMickeysMom
want to be understood back.

It was like a big door slamming, do not pass go or collect 200 dollars. Sort of like cold calling and getting hung up on.

Some things are to be experienced only to understand there are barriers in life. Maybe my message penetrated later on with someone. I'll never know if I made anyone think for daring to ask that question (can't recall what I said, either). I only know that rudeness taught me something that day... can't make people give it up if they don't want to, and you can't get some people to lower their defenses in the process of trying to understand or be understood.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. Some people are really overly sensitive.
I don't think it is such a big deal to be atheist. I sure don't care. Given the state of this world today and in the past, and awful existence of millions of people I think being an atheist is perfectly understandable. Especially if people are looking at some of the really far right religions out there. Most of them really don't make good sense so naturally intelligent people would be turned completely off.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
66. .....it's their job.
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AllenVanAllen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
67. Being rude isn't exclusive with being atheist.


Rude people are of all stripes. Just as kind people are as well...



This is an old post! :o
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. Rude is just becoming a part of our culture.
I am constantly amazed by how rude people have become - and think nothing of it.

I absolutely hate the word "idiot." Its horrible and it is a horrible thing to say about someone else. We use it all the time about anyone who disagrees with us.
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AllenVanAllen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. It's very easy to turn strangers into obstacles

that end up in the way of our perceived goals. We forget their humanity and people become things instead of beings that want happiness just like we do. That's where we can be the change we want to see. When someone is rude to me I try to meet it with kindness if not to the person directly at least to myself and take the anger that may arise and turn it into peace. Coming back to awareness of the breath always helps in this respect. So this way I don't end up extending someone's cruelty to me to someone else. It's tough to do but a thing that I can strive for.

It's easy to judge someone else for their point of view but I think we should always remember, they came down a different road than we did and they don't want to suffer either.


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BanzaiBonnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. To put the world right in order, we must first put the nation in order;

to put the nation in order, we must first put the family in order; to put the family in order, we must first cultivate our personal life; we must first set our hearts right.
-- Confucius


I'm always working on my own stuff. There is one rule is our house - always be as kind as you can. I'm working on it.

Bonnie



Trouble no more about their religion;
respect others in their view,
and demand that they respect yours.

Chief Tecumseh
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AllenVanAllen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. "Always be kind as you can." What a wonderful rule.



I think sometimes it's even harder to be kind to ourselves than it is to be kind to others. :hi:


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BanzaiBonnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. It's not as easy as it sounds
Edited on Fri Oct-09-09 07:25 AM by BanzaiBonnie
One of those simple things that a person must really work on.

I have five grandchildren and the ones that are old enough... well, I just ask them, "what's the rule at grandma's house?" They know. It pretty much covers anything they might do. And I feel that anything not covered by that rule is not worth worrying about anyway.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. You can see the buddha in everyone. That helps.
I don't find it difficult to be kind to people. I have friends that are ultraconservatives and we just don't talk politics. It would be pointless.

What I have trouble with is getting over nasty stuff that other people have done to me. It just plays over and over in my head. And its so stupid because by now its nothing but a fragment of memory - its not even a real thing. Eventually time dulls it all down and it just kind of goes away but I would like to find a way to deal with it a lot faster.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Don't commit it to memory.
My mother has always said horrid things to me. I used to replay them over and over, and could tell you word for word what she said. I reached a point where I just didn't allow the words to embed in my memory. I still know she is mean but I couldn't repeat what she said (in order to convince another). It isn't stored in my (conscious) memory.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-12-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. But is it stored in your unconscious memory?
That might be even more dangerous.

Someone asked the Dalai Lama about dealing with people who do awful things to you. His response was to just forget it. And if that didn't work then try to deal with them in a compassionate way. You might be hurt but just think what their actions are doing in a karmic way.

Always be compassionate. My mother was not an affectionate person, either. Eventually I was able to see her in a different, more compassionate light. There was a piece of her that just was missing. I don't know that whe ever felt compassion toward anyone or anything - it just wasn't there.

It's kind of dumb to spend my life angry at a very damaged person.
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BanzaiBonnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-22-09 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. If you would like to try something...
I've found this works wonders. Try it the next time someone cuts you off in traffic or says something that makes you feel bad.


Think to yourself:


I love you
Thank you for this opportunity to make things right
Please forgive me
I forgive you


This is how I practice Ho'oponopono, the Hawaiian way of making things right and taking responsibility for yourself.

By the time I say the last line I can feel the energy of the disturbance drop from my stomach. You know, that tight little knot in your stomach that gnaws on your peace. I can feel it actually drop away. If you don't feel it drop from your body the first time, say it again and even a few times until your feel it clear out. You have now mitigated any future harm from holding anger or other disturbing emotion in your body.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
78. Do you think its rude for me to 'throw' it back at you?
People are too impatient with one another these days, I think. I'm VERY unhappy with rudeness.

I've NEVER believed in a 'higher being.' I 'believe' in the natural order of things, so I don't consider myself to be a 'non-believer,' even tho some might.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
79. I see that some never got the point in this thread.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 10:46 PM by Maat
If you want to attack believers or religion, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

This is a SAFE HAVEN for believers, and spiritual explorers.

We are not supposed to have to deal with rude behavior here.
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postatomic Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. "Any belief worth having can survive doubt"
I question my own journey at times. It is my own doubts that make my beliefs stronger. If someone 'attacks' my beliefs that is there problem. Through out history there has been a common occurrence with those that question and attack those that they don't understand.

I'd welcome an intelligent discussion with anyone regarding my spiritual journey.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. No doubt.
Edited on Fri Jan-14-11 01:44 PM by Maat
But the proper place for those discussions, I argue, is in the Religion/Theology forum. This is a refuge (this DU group) - that is if there is going to be substantial conflict.
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postatomic Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. I understand the refuge concept
There are those that just enjoy being antagonistic. Gives them some kind of cheap thrill. Feeds their deflated ego. You can't discuss anything with soneone like that.

Peace
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Peace and blessings (n/t).
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