How do we fight back intolerance and misunderstanding

[JohnKleeb]

without sounding like we're whining. Seriously, Ive been quiet about this way too long, I dont like the double standards.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[JohnKleeb]

2. I Do too

Its down right annoying.

[madison2000]

3. I've just had another awful experience

I tried to interact with one person and instead I was ganged up on. This place is hopeless. I'm logging out.

[JohnKleeb]

4. jesus christ

Sigh that sucks.

[elshiva]

5. What was it? Can I help?

Don't leave! I like you!

[madison2000]

6. I started trying to have a conversation with someone who had

posted that Christians were crybabies and other people jumped in to argue on her behalf and basically agreed with her that I was acting like a whiny victim. All kinds of advice about "how I should behave" on DU- really patronizing. Not a hint that anyone really cares at all how they make others feel- and they keep acting like Christians are the majority here at DU, which is absurd.

[elshiva]

13. Christians are a majority in America and

atheists are marginalized in general but not on DU. DU is a safe venue to vent.
I'm sorry about that. I saw similar threads that basically say shit like "Jesus is the perfect model for Christians--ever the victim!" arrrrrrrrrrrgh! If there is a way for me to help you, PM me, OK?

[Maat]

72. You are so kind, Elshiva.

I agree with what you say.

This turn in our safe haven here is not a good sign; I'm most distressed about it.

I think that those who come here to provoke or intensely argue need to review the mission statement again.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

7. Considering that I tried to have a *rational* discussion

but you took it upon yourself to dictate who could post on the thread, I'll let the interchange speak for itself:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3374150#3374962

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

9. Who are you to dictate where I can post?

Just because I'm a RATIONAL Catholic, you take offense? :eyes:

[Name removed]

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

12. That's not very Christian

I'll say a prayer for you tonight! :-)

And that's VERY hateful language that is also against DU rules.

[elshiva]

14. I welcome you. And as long as

you don't kick up flames here, the rest will welcome you. This board is meant to be a sort of echo chamber for religious believers and all sympathetic non-believers who want to know something about Progressive People of Faith?

[madison2000]

15. she only came in here to bash me

she could care less about this group except to come in and mock us

[Kathy in Cambridge]

23. I never mock Christians-I AM ONE!

:eyes:

[madison2000]

25. only in private though, right?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

18. Did you see the nice comment that madison posted?

that's hardly Christian.

[Name removed]

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[jonnyblitz]

17. wow

just wow.

[jonnyblitz]

11. she is a catholic. catholics aren't allowed?

I Know we douchebag atheists aren't so I will leave ASAP!

[elshiva]

28. You ARE Welcome here as long as you don't start flame wars

here.
Atheists ARE NOT douchebags, they are human beings who need to be respected for being so.
Again, anyone can post here whatever their beliefs. Sometimes people want to ask questions about progressive people of faith if they are atheists. Just be respectful. I also think it is rude and mean to call someone a "bitch." Sorry madison was angry (said to explain not to excuse).

[jonnyblitz]

48. I actually never intend to post here. I believe it is your sanctuary

but your friend stepped out of line and I couldnt stand by while she called my friend, a hateful bitch and told her she wasnt welcome here when, in fact, she is a christian also.

[Texasgal]

16. Wow.

Really "Christian-Like" behaviour!

She even told me to Go to hell in a PM.

Niiiice...

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[elshiva]

29. Please don't use that language. It does not help

your case, it hurts you considerably.

[madison2000]

32. no one is supporting me here- what would you do?

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RevCheesehead]

39. well, good for you.

I've seen your "interchange." If Madison has gone off the deep end, I'd say she was provoked.

Why did you stalk her by following her into this thread?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

40. Wow.

That's all I can say. You didn't read the other thread. You could not have possibly arrived at that conclusion.

Calling someone a FUCKING BITCH and sending nasty PMs is NOT Christian behaviour. How dare you enable and approve of such rudeness.

[RevCheesehead]

44. With all due respect, you don't know what I've read.

And if you're going to start wagging the finger, I'd like to know why you felt it necessary to follow her into this group and disrupt it further.

I certainly hope that nobody is trying to provoke her to the point of getting tombstoned. That isn't Christian behavior, either.

You are not my mother. Please do not speak to me as if I were a child.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

47. Well, I was just shocked that you would approve of such

unwarranted nastiness. But maybe Christians are different in Wisconsin than Massachusetts. :shrug:

[RevCheesehead]

51. Oh, please. You are hardly innocent here.

It takes two to argue. She came here, and you followed.

Unwarranted nastiness, indeed.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[RevCheesehead]

35. Kathy, what is your agenda here?

Are you here to support liberal Christians, or to bully one?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

43. Before you pass judgement, please look at the content

on another thread:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3374150#3375313

[Telly Savalas]

62. So how 'bout them Mets?

Think Pedro can help 'em win the NL East?

[JohnKleeb]

22. Jesus Fucking Christ

I am gone for one second then this happens. Dont know what happened.

[madison2000]

24. Isn't DU wonderful John

and isn't it great the way my new friends from GD have responded to your post?

[Texasgal]

30. Kleeb...

Look, this person cannot seem to have rational conversation about any thing relgious. I am Chrsitian and I thought her posts were so hate-filled I had to question what her true stance was.

She whined and whined about being ostracized for being Christian. Truth is, she is now being ostracized for being downright hateful and violating many DU rules in the process.

I am Christian and I am not at all bothered by some of the Anti-Christian posts here on DU. I know what my faith is and I am quite comfortable with it. If you anybody is bothered by it, and wants to have a "rational" debate, then let's do it!

Telling people where they can post, sending nasty PM'S and calling people out are WAAAAAAY in violation of the rules.

I suggest she log off for a while take a deep breath and start her apologies later.

[JohnKleeb]

31. I dont know what happened here

and I am not getting involved.

[madison2000]

33. Thanks heaps for all the support

I am leaving and I am not coming back.

[Texasgal]

37. That may be best for now.

Go take a deep breath and come back after a few days.

[RevCheesehead]

42. whoa - wait just a minute.

This is a safe group for Christians. She came here for help, and one of the disruptors from GD posted the link to this group.

Stalking is also against DU rules. It doesn't matter if you got hateful PM's, or perceived you were attacked. If you followed her into this thread to berate her, you are also guilty of violating DU rules.

Please do not use this group to perpetuate hatred. If you have questions, then read Skinner's note pinned at the top of the group.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

45. It doesn't matter if you got hateful PM's, or perceived you were attacked.

Well, last I heard that was against DU rules.

And we ARE NOT DISRUPTORS. If you took a step back and read the thread that I linked to you above, you'd realize she was acting irrational. If you want to enable and rationalize that kind of behaviour, maybe us true Christians don't belong here. :eyes:

[RevCheesehead]

50. I didn't say that. Please do not put words into my mouth.

I read the thread.

I also noted that a link was posted, in GD, telling people that she had come to this thread to complain.

I also note that people who have rarely, if ever, come to this group before, have come here, stalking her. Stalking is forbidden.

I don't care what she's done. She has to deal with her own issues. But I'd suggest that by chasing someone into another thread and provoking her further qualifies as disruptive behavior.

I also don't appreciate this kind of stuff coming into this group.

People come here for support. Even if someone is perceived as irrational, our mission statement is to be supportive of one another. Madison has been a part of this group for a while, and we know and love her. I am prepared to support her, and help her find more enlightened ways to express herself. That is, after all, the purpose of Kleeb's thread, isn't it?

Do you come with the love of Jesus Christ? If so, then peace to you.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

52. Part of the reason I belong to the Church that I do is so I don't have

to put up with the judgementalism that I witnessed from madison. I'm going away because I see a bent toward the irrational here, and a endency to defend indefensible behaviour.

PEACE.

[RevCheesehead]

54. Well, you reap what you sew.

:eyes:

[jonnyblitz]

56. you should tell that to madison

this whole site is a public forum and if you people really really have the need to say hateful things about DUers and misrepresent what is going on in other threads then you should limit these comments to PMs or face the heat when others read what you write. We ARE getting quite a laugh over your accusation that I am a stalker and disruptor for posting links to threads in here though. that is a good one. :)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

58. Sad, isn't it?

persecution complex gone awry...

[RevCheesehead]

59. I just wonder why you are in this group.

Perhaps you did not read the mission statement:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=291&topic_id=1&mesg_id=1

If you come here for discussion, then peace to you.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

60. Nice inclusive spirit!

if you ever want to win over atheists and non-believers, defending fellow Christians who swear at and disparage them is no way to win souls.

[jonnyblitz]

66. don't worry. I won't make a habit of sullying your forum.

and its also against the rules calling other DUers disruptors, but I don't get my kicks from feeling persecuted so whatever.

now excuse me while i go shower.....

[Kathy in Cambridge]

57. The correct spelling is 'sow'

and that's a very welcoming, Christian attitude you're displaying. You're blaming the victims for the attacks perpetrated by your friend. Again, the irrationality is mind-boggling.

[RevCheesehead]

61. Kathy, you might consider looking into a mirror, yourself.

I don't know what your beef is with Madison - you obviously have had a history with her before tonight's episode.

Going back to your buddies and having a good yuk about all "those" Christians. And yet, on this group, you're "one of us?"

And thank you for the correct spelling. Do you never make mistakes?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

63. Nope, I never posted to Madison before. She jumped all over me though.

And I'm wrong a lot, just not about hypocrites. ;-)

And BTW, it's not a 'taking sides' issue. Don't you have atheist, Jewish and Muslim friends?

here's where madison mistakes me for someone else:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3374150#3375156

[RevCheesehead]

73. Are you willing to admit

that tonight is the first time you have posted in this group? And that your very first post in this group was to attack one of its members? You may call it defending yourself, but when you brought the discussion to this group, you became an instigator.

Paint it any way you like. I've seen your posts elsewhere, and I know that you are good at portraying one side of an issue.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

75. "you are good at portraying one side of an issue."

now please tell me, what topics have you seen me post on? I spend almost all my time in the Lounge.

I'm very good at debate, and if someone can't back up their assertions with facts, they should be called on it.

There was a very logical 'if-then' analogy that occurred tonight: IF you post flamebait in GD, swear at longtime DUers, attack them, and send nastygrams, THEN you should expect repercussions. Didn't you say "you reap what you sow"? Or does this only apply to people that disagree with you?

[RevCheesehead]

79. Is tonight the very first time you posted in this group?

edited to add: A simple yes or no. Is it?

[Texasgal]

49. I don't believe that any was stalking her.

She came into this forum complaining about what was happening in another forum. It involved me, so I think that I have a right to respond. I am certainly not stalking her and I do not wish that she be banned either.

I think that when you become so passionate about a post or a thread that you lose all your bearings, then the best thing to do is log off and come back later.

I received a very nasty anger-filled PM, that totally shocked me! I have never received such a PM before. I am literally still in shock!

There is no agenda here, and the only reason why I responding is because I have every right to defend my integrity when someone tries to stomp it.

It seems pretty clear that this poster has a problem with discussing Christianity and how she feels about it.

That is all.

[elshiva]

38. Madison, please, DON'T GO!

I support your right to argue for religion (I am a Christian and a Jew), but it is not good to insult those you are discussing with. Jesus did have a bit of a temper, but he did not simply curse at people.

Just try to cut out the whole "go to hell" bit that is the worst of Christian bigotry, to judge non-believers like that. God loves everybody, but you wouldn't know it by such comments.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

41. I think it goes a little deeper than that

and I'm a believer, not a non-believer. I just don't tolerate irrational, angry, nasty behaviour.

[Texasgal]

36. OH I totally agree with you.

I didn't want to get involved either. I just posted that I thought her posts were out of line.

It is completely against my Christian beliefs to do what she is doing. I am not sure just how "Christian" she really is.

Does it makes sense to cry about someone attacking your religion and the tell you to "fuck off" when they don't like what you said??

* I am not trying to drag you in to this, I'm just ranting. Sorry.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

46. That's not very nice language

[RevCheesehead]

53. Well, Congratulations.

She has been tombstoned.

GOD DAMMIT ALL TO HELL!!! FUCK THIS SHIT!!!

I hope and pray she is OK.

[AZCat]

55. She asked for that.

I mean - literally - she asked for that.

See this thread in ATA if you don't believe me.

Do you have any other way (besides DU) to contact her and see if she is ok (obviously she is not, but might be in a few days)?

[RevCheesehead]

64. What she did was inappropriate, but she was provoked.

No, I do not have any way of contacting her. And I am very concerned about her.

This kind of bullying crap has got to stop.

I am not excusing her behavior. But those who provoked her know FULL WELL what they did. And they're gleeful.

[AZCat]

68. If you have issues with the behavior of posters...

...let the moderators know. It won't do anyone any good to tell me about it - I can't do anything, nor do I necessarily agree with you. The moderators are in a position to make decisions. If they have difficulty handling a situation, they will consult the administrators.

They might also have a way to contact madison and give her your email address, if you asked them nicely to do so. While I can't condone her behavior, I worry about the mental health of all progressives in this oppressive climate. Too many of us are nearing the breaking strain, I fear, and we must do all we can to help each other deal with it.

[Maat]

70. I'm sorry this happened, Rev.

I just hate to see you upset.

And I had just been encouraging people to come here - because it was a place where we all discussed spiritual matters respectfully.

I agree with your sentiments that this DU Group is not a place for people to come and INTENSELY ARGUE about Christianity or anything else.

It was set up to be a welcoming environment in which to discuss FAITH ISSUES.

This is the first thread here that I have read on which someone wanted to provoke, rather than discuss a particular spiritual issue.

We must reaffirm our commitment to that safe and welcoming environment.

Hang in there, Rev! This too shall pass.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

77. It's called GENERAL DISCUSSION for a reason

"But those who provoked her know FULL WELL what they did"

If someone can't back up their statements with facts, and if they call out other DUers, use foul language, and attack others personally, WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN?

She was provoked? So if a husband beat his wife, it's HER fault because she provoked him? That's some convoluted logic.

[RevCheesehead]

78. You tell me.

Did her hateful PM's come to you before or after you followed her into this group?

And I still want to know why you came in here? Was it to be supportive?

[jonnyblitz]

67. it looks like she requested her account be deleted

look in ATA.

well you have a new martyr now.

[Maat]

71. I think that you may wish to review this quote.

"The DU Christian Liberals/Progressive People of Faith Group is for Christians and Christian-friendly persons who would like to have an open DISCUSSION about our FAITH and its role in the world around us. Our group will provide a SAFE HAVEN for discussion and support, and find ways to express our beliefs in positive, non-threatening ways."

EMPHASIS MINE.

It is from the mission statement.

Please refrain from using the term 'martyr' in reference to a DUer. That is not in keeping with the spirit of the Group.

[jonnyblitz]

74. people who come into this after the fact with a preconceived

bias should SERIOUSLY refrain from righteous indignation. and don't worry, i have no intention of sullying your forum again. the martyr comment definitely fits this situation. now if you people who have no clue to what went on would quit responding to my posts I wouldn't have to keep coming back in here. :eyes:

[Maat]

76. Johnny, I don't give a fig about what happened before.

I post here regularly, and most respectfully request that you let go of defending yourself, and just come in here when you want to DISCUSS - I said 'discuss' not argue - FAITH - in a safe, respectful environment.

That's all I have to say about it.

[jonnyblitz]

80. fair enough. i have no quarrel with you.

this was a particular case. look at all the deleted threads. I understand you want this to be a haven away from it all where you can discuss your faith , as it should be.I seriously didn't feel comfortable coming in here but people crossed the line tonight. this was a carryover from a thread in another forum.

please take care. this has wiped me out. it's been going on all day.

[JohnKleeb]

82. I shouldnt be saying anything guys but I am sorry this got out of control

Really am sorry about that. I dont know. I'll see everyone around.

[jonnyblitz]

83. somebody complained in ATA about another thread from here

you guys seem to forget this is a public forum and anybody can read what is said..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=120x32615

[JohnKleeb]

84. He had a right to go to ATA about it

In my opinion, so how do you feel about that?

[jonnyblitz]

85. i expected you to agree.

and how do you feel about THAT?

[JohnKleeb]

87. Why are you giving me such a hard time about this

We agree it's flamebait and that this thread got out of control and that it was totally wrong for Madison to PM Kathy and TexasGal and give them shit and the bitch comment was totally wrong, and trying to exclude her just because she doesn't think the exact same way. So why are you jumping on me for this, I had nothing to do with that athiests are a douche post.

[jonnyblitz]

88. i wasnt giving you a hard time

I was just saying that I presumed you would agree. DAMN dude chill! you people have serious ISSUES in here. i hope to never have to come in this place again :scared:

[JohnKleeb]

90. You sounded upset

and you did seem pissed off at me yesterday so I only assumed you were pissed at me still, just a presumption that was I guess false.

[jonnyblitz]

93. kleeb. you are a high school student..

I don't get pissed off at you. tempermant is often hard to gauge online. i didnt respond to your PM because your communism/atheism comment through me and I didnt know how to respond yet and i got sidetracked.

[JohnKleeb]

94. Yeah it is

You can still get upset at high school students, thats beside the point, and about my analogy, I admit it wasn't a great analogy but I think Stalin's atheism or at least his despising of the Eastern Orthodox Church is what inspired him to do what happened in to the Ukraine. Glad we have an understanding.

[realisticphish]

91. actually

before tonight, this was a peaceful, easygoing group, where we discussed the aspects of our group topic, the same as every group on DU

[RevCheesehead]

86. This is not a forum, it is a group within a forum.

I thought you said you weren't going to sully us with your presence. But you keep coming back.

Would you like to discuss Christianity? :hi:

[jonnyblitz]

89. I keep coming back because people keep responding to my

posts! :P I am trying to leave!!

[RevCheesehead]

92. are you a person who always has to have the last word?

I've got all night. I'm on vacation this week.

[jonnyblitz]

95. rev cheesehead my brain is mush...

perhaps another day..

[Telly Savalas]

65. I've read all the posts in this thread...

and I still can't figure out how this ties into the Terri Schiavo affair. What's the link?

[Maat]

69. When I sense that any thread on DU is insulting to people of ..

faith, I refuse to go any farther.

That doesn't address your question, does it? I guess I was just talking out loud about what I'm doing.

I think that I am going to work on establishing a local interfaith alliance chapter in my area.

And, I think we have to keep posting here, and refusing to be anything but respectful about someone's faith.

And if someone is being followed and harassed, that someone is going to have to put certain posters on 'ignore,' and delete any PMs from that person.

But I don't think anyone should give up on DU, and especially not on this DU Group.

[realisticphish]

81. i just got a mailing from

the interfaith alliance, and i am currently trying to track down a local chapter...i had never heard of it before

[hvn_nbr_2]

96. The "fight back" paradigm

Wow! I read the original post on this thread when there were no responses, pondered it a bit and didn't have my thoughts thought out, so I went home, had dinner, and came back to find a full-fledged shouting match. An interesting thing about shouting matches on DU--you can see them visually without reading. Six or more levels of successive indentations of subject lines, with alternating posters, with lots of deleted messages, and I know that that sub-thread has a very low reward/risk ratio and isn't likely worth the time to read it and decipher which insult is responding to which provocation, or vice versa. Interestingly, in the time it took me to write this response, two whole new 6+ indented level sub-threads appeared!

Maybe I've been online too long and have become too jaded, or maybe I've developed a fairly strong "useless information" filter. I ignore a lot of stuff and let a lot of other stuff slip out of my mind, after it erroneously got into my mind, because it's not worth holding onto. After all, if someone is stupid, overbearing, obnoxious, irrational, insulting, FOS (where the F stands for "full")--why care what they say? There's no commandment "Thou shalt not leave an insult unanswered." Six levels of indentation usually means that someone is giving up way too much of their power to someone that they consider FOS. Why do people bother doing that?

So, the original post asks, "How do we fight back {against?} intolerance and misunderstanding without sounding like we're whining.{?}" And I have several immediate reactions:

1. Why does everything in this society have to be a fight or a war? War on drugs, war on crime, war on cancer, war on heart disease, fight against illiteracy... Fight against illiteracy? What kind of bleeping sense does that make? Can you beat someone enough to make them know how to read? Every day I hear references to a war against this or a fight against that, that I think building or creating or problem-solving would be more apt metaphors than fighting and warring. In regard to this thread, it might make sense to fight against intolerance, but fight against misunderstanding? What kind of sense does that make? The only antidote to misunderstanding is communication and education; fighting misunderstanding might beat it into submission but it wouldn't create understanding.

2. If my fighting sounded like whining, I'd have to think that my fighting is pretty ineffective fighting (and probably at a 6+th level of indentation!). Must escalate!! Or maybe reconsider. If I don't have bigger guns and I'm already at the 6th level of indentation, reconsideration would seem in order.

3. So what are we talking about here? I took the thread to be about Christian-bashing on DU, but someone else (post #65) apparently thinks it's about Terry Schiavo, unless they're being satirical. (I think they are, but there's no overt indication of it.) Seems like most of the posters agree with my understanding of what the subject is. But the original post doesn't really say; there's a lack of communication here. I reached my understanding of what the subject is mainly because it's in this group. But I'm really just assuming something that isn't stated. I've looked at probably a dozen threads on DU recently that I didn't have a clue what the subject was; sometimes after reading dozens of responses, I still didn't know what the subject was. Recently almost all indecipherable subjects seem to be the Schiavo case, so it would be a useful working hypothesis that this thread is about Schiavo. But I doubt it.

4. There are radical and militant atheists out there. You're not gonna convert them. Get used to it, and mostly ignore them. (Remember the non-commandment, "Thou shalt not leave an insult unanswered.") There are reasonable atheists with whom you might establish communication and some understanding and maybe some common ground. That won't happen from an attitide of "fighting misunderstanding." I have a friend who is a parapsychologist and ghostbuster (really!), and he counts a number of skeptics among his friends. The skeptic friends are not from the radical, militant wing of skepticism, and the friendships weren't built by fighting the other's misunderstanding. They were built by respectful communication among people who disagree.

5. I'm not sure which "double standards" you mean. Maybe you could express that more clearly for me. Maybe if I pursued the bashing threads assiduously, I'd know. But why would I bother doing that? I mentioned my "useless information" filter, didn't I? I'm aware that there are Christian-bashing threads on DU, but I just don't bother with them. I skip on so quickly that they mostly don't even register. Why clutter my brain?

6. I think it would be more useful to ask, "How do we deal with intolerance and misunderstanding?" The way to deal with a lot of the intolerance is just to ignore it. One way to deal with misunderstanding is to seek communication. And angry reaction seeking to be right, to have the last word, to get adversaries to agree or to say uncle will not establish communication or understanding. Oh, did I also mention that understanding and misunderstanding might go both directions?

I'm hoping that I don't sound too preachy, although I suspect I might. But I just keep thinking, why waste so much time and energy reacting to people that you think are FOS? It's online--people act like @$$^*!@$ when they get a keyboard in their hands and no human is in the room with them. Why try to have the last word with someone like that?

[JohnKleeb]

97. I just want people to respect each other despite disagreements on religion

Thats all and youre right, fight is an overdone and tired word and I guess wrong word. You're right about people, I just really wish people would respect me for what I believe in because I know they want to have the same done to them. Also about converting, I have no desire to convert athiests, converting has never been part of my religious belief structure.

[hvn_nbr_2]

98. Ah, here's progress.

When I said, "You're not gonna convert them," my rhetoric got the better of my logic and good will. It would have been better to leave that sentence out. But I did have a secondary meaning of "You're not going to convert them into kind, understanding, tolerant folks."

I now also understand better what you mean and are seeking. Not sure if I'll have more response tomorrow or not, but right now it's late and I'm going to bed.