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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 06:25 PM
Original message
I need to re-think my kitchen floor
I was planning on putting down laminate until this happened.

Craftygal doesn't want linoleum - she wants tile but I can't afford it and don't know how to install it. I'm having a guy in to install tile in the bathroom and do some other stuff which will run me $800 labour. Another guy wants $400 just to walk in the door.

It's a hardwood floor but after years of abuse it looks like it's been through a war.

I'm thinking about just leaving the busted laminate to dry then putting a couple of indoor-outdoor rugs around. I can take them out and beat the shit out of them if they get dirty.

Any other ideas?

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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. is the floor so far gone you can't patch and sand and refinish?
that really would be the best (and cheapest) way to go I think

I hate my laminate, i have it all through the house and it's slick as snake snot (the poor dogs can't get ANY grip and go flying and have a hard time getting up)

I'd love a good lino with a touch of texture......
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The hardwood looks like a machine gun's been fired through it
Some idiot decided to try and get rid of the squeaks by putting drywall screws through it every 1/2 inch six inches apart whether there was a joist or not. I'm not even sure it's structurally sound, hence the laminate. At least it spreads out the weight. That's another reason why I'm worried about the tile. If the edges happen to line up with a set of holes, it'll go right through the floor. I'd lay plywood, but that's gonna throw off all the doors.
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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Sorry to hear this, AZDem
I remember when you had it laid down...and the pics. It looks soooo nice.

You made your home so beautiful, and, as I said, I am really sorry to hear that you don't like the flooring.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. sigh
I don't mind it so much, but my old guy has bad hips and it scares me every time he loses his footing and falls hard.

I have put down a bunch of rugs and such, mainly for him. kinda defeats the purpose of the hard flooring doesn't it?

sad to say, I laid peel and stick vinyl 'planks' all through the house in AZ, cheap and easy to work with, that had texture for the dogs and just as easy to clean and maintain and actually showed the dust less!!!

if I had it to do over......

and the look was almost the same,

AZ cheap vinyl 'planks'





NM expensive pain in the ass to install laminate







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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I guess it is "live and learn"
The cheap vinyl "planks" look very nice. Your present home is still lovely, though. I especially loved what you did with the master bath.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. thanks! BTW did you see the pics of what I did with the monster garden tub?
I made it a GARDEN!!!! :rofl:

here's what it looked like before the remodel :puke:




here it is next to the deck, the perfect spot for a 'kitchen garden'. I'll add some lattice around it to dress it up later in the season.






it has radish, lettuce, sweet peas, broccoli, carrots, parsley, tomatoes, marigolds and marajam all sprouting (the first set of radish is almost ready to harvest)
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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I remember that monster tub!
What a creative way to recycle it! You are going to have some lovely fresh vegetables, flowers, and herbs this summer. BTW, your deck turned out very nice also.

I wish I could grow vegetables. The back of my home borders a state preserve, and we regularly have deer visiting us. They actually walk down the street totally oblivious to the homes and people watching them. Because of this, there is a rule here that no one can grow vegetables. I might try to grow some indoors this year, though.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. the deck is nice. I have all the chairs laid on their sides right now
our spring winds are HUGH!!!

we're going to put a shade cover up on it soon. maybe even this year, but next year for sure!
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. .
!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

AZ, I about spit Coke out my nose on that one. Snake snot. I am SO going to use that.

:rofl:
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. slick as snake snot
just rolls off the tongue doesn't it??

:rofl:
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Quakerfriend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. You really are too funny, TrogL. But, I have great
sympathy for ya.

Tile is by far the best route, and it can really be quite cheap, if you do it yourself.

It really is pretty easy. My husband and I have done many a tile floor.

Most importantly, the area you intend to tile must be level. You must also make sure that you will have clearance for doors, radiators etc., given the thickness of the tile + mastic.

You can borrow or rent a tile cutter. And, you will need tiling tools for spreading the mastic.

Cut all your pieces and lay them out using the little plastic tile separators to make sure everything will fit just right. Put your mastic down with a helper, again using the the separators and working fairly fast.

Then, all you have to do is the grout. Again, with a helper. One person mixing the grout and putting small sections down, and the other working behind them to clean the grout lines, and keeping clean water ready for cleaning each tile. Work together in the most efficacious direction across the area ( This is often the hardest part). It's done before you know it!

Sorry, I know you are probably familiar with the steps! I just think tile is so much easier, in so many ways.

My husband actually likes to do tile! :crazy:

Anyway, please keep us posted!
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. !
Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 02:30 AM by Wash. state Desk Jet
No matter what you do the floor will end up raised. That will mean the doors will be cut down. And that,s really no big deal. When ever I do floors I always remove all moulding baseboard and around door cassings.To cut a door down just requires a skill saw and a good ply wood blade with as many teeth on that blade as you can get. If you are usining a sidewinder skill saw, standard homeownner saw ,you lay out the door on saw horses ,measure than draw your line. Take a straight edge or board and clamp it down to the door,this is your saw guide. To get that right you place the saw blade in line with your cut, than your straight edge is clamped to the door with the blade guide against the straight edge-hence perfectly straight cut, or off angled to account for non perfectly square and level floor!

Now, tile floors equal dirty groud ,hard to clean,scrub scrub, tell that to crafty gal! don,t tell crafty gal I told you that!

Snape togather flooring has new product out, immitation tile floor what looks real! In fact one manufacturer has snap togather floor what uses real tile faced no grouding.It is spendy but subtract labor and maybe not too spendy!

Flooring product has instruction vidio! Watch the movie! You will need a table saw,and a 10 inch chop saw 12 inch is better and for the kinds of things you must rethink I suggest you go right out and buy those tools!
Use some of the labor money you will save!

And tell the sales people at your local builders supply that you want the best and most installer friendly product you got, the easyer the better. Tell them I sent you, they will know who you mean!
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kitchen floor camouflage
is best done with cotton throw rugs. Those are generally cheaper than dirt at import stores and even Wally's. When they get nasty, you just throw them into the washing machine and they're like new.

Indoor-outdoor will get vile with grease and trapped food particles. What might be microscopic to me and thee will look like a ten course dinner to some pretty nasty bacteria, which is why I suggest you avoid it in the kitchen.
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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Couldn't agree more
I once had a kitchen with indoor/outdoor carpeting as it's entire floor. This had been done by the previous owner. I had wee kiddies then, and, with spills and such, the carpeting eventually "reaked" despite my efforts to shampoo it almost daily.

We had to pull it up (and, boy was it vile underneath), and lay linoleum.

What a poor choice for a kitchen.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. We made a brown-paper floor as a temp solution.
We had to tear the carpet out of our living room because of the cats. We were about to put the house on the market and just didn't have the money to put in a new carpet, and we were reluctant to anyhow as the house was just begging for wood throughout, but it was going to have to be up to the next owner.

Torn brown paper and a few gallons of polyurethane made a good looking floor. It's an easy DIY, and goes fast once you get your rhythm. Here's my thread on it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. I think I've found the solution
I'm leaving the laminate down to cover the holes in the floor and distribute the weight, then put stick-on fake tile flooring over it to make it water proof. I'll continue the laminate on down the hall without the fake tile stuff. All the doors go inward so I don't have to worry about levelling them.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. that should work
at least I hope so

good luck!
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Good luck and
Edited on Mon Apr-07-08 12:56 PM by Wash. state Desk Jet
because the glue on the self adhesive is not as good as it is made out to be it is always better to buy enough adhesive to install the self adhesive flooring tiles as though it is glue down. The laminate makes for a good base to stick those tiles to but thoes self adhesive tiles do tend to pop up in places making the floor look bad.

By adding glue to the floor,the floor will look the same ten years later no matter what you drag acrossed that floor over time. And even if some air or moisture get,s under a few of those tiles with additional glue,those tiles won,t pop up.And if you were to think about it,say the sales person told you that he or she has installed that product and you don,t need additional glue ,because it,s manufacturer tested and proven ,yadda,yadda.

Those tiles always seem to install perfectly when first layed, and will look fine as time passes,but once one pops up there will be more. And I can assure no sales rep. that has installed that flooring tile ever returend two years later to see how the stuff holds up. I have clients that have been with me for more than twenty years ,So-that should tell that for me it,s not just a matter of changing jobs ,the end result must be what I tell them it will be. A sales representive cannot say it that way.
And your choice is a wise one.

Just a thought.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. what kind of glue?
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Multi purpose glue for sheet flooring-located
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 10:53 PM by Wash. state Desk Jet
if you have a home depot or lowe,s or where you got the flooring tiles. A v notch trowl 16 th. inch notch spread very thin but cover all the floor and clean as you go with paint thiner or miniral spirits on rag, the t shirt type , the instructions on the gallon can of glue or two gallon container will tell you what the set up time is ,ten minutes thirty minutes so fourth. Some of the sheet flooring multi purpose glue only has to set for two or three munutes. If it,s 12 inch by twelve inch flooring tiles you spread enough glue for about two or three rows at a time. Consult a flooring person at the builders supply ,one who knows about those self glue down flooring tiles and the old pop up factor for a secound opinion. You cannot go wrong by adding the sheet flooring glue. And you will never have a pop up problem. I did a cement floor in a remodel that way 7 years ago and that floor looks great today. Buy the glue with the least set up time.And ofcourse, somebody in the sales deptarment may have told you that you shouldn,t have any problems going over your laminante flooring given the smooth surface,(shouldn,t have) Indeed now people tend to drag things across floors ,like Refers and stoves!

Take your time and you will surprise yourself at what can be accomplished.
Take the brand name Armstrong for example, great flooring material but I don,t trust the self adhesive. And if you think about it ,the directions say when replacing sub flooring the floor must be level! if it,s not and you do not use a finish grade ply wood or at the very least cdx ply,-the manufacture guarantee is void. That means pop up. even in new construction these days perfectly square and level is somewhat illusive! But hay,don,t tell Bob Viella!You know what I mean, this old house!

And rent a linolium roller either at home depot of any equipment rental, ten or fifteen dollars . 70 0r 100 lb. You roll that the same as sheet flooring or a glue down carpet. And thats what brings the floor into perfect bond. keep a wet tea shirt rag with thinner to catch the excess glue. And check the roller ,clean it with the rag saturated with thinner. Wet means more than damp but not dripping.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-13-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I'm laying this
http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Catal...

TrafficMaster Allure, Chocolate Resilient Vinyl Tile Flooring



At one point my contractor was saying something about bending it up at the edges to fit under the kitchen counters. Now he's saying that won't work and I've got these big empty holes.

I'd also like it to extend up the bathroom walls a bit to protect them from splashing.

I also need to know how to start laying it. I've got an odd-ball shaped kitchen what with all the new cabinets. If I start right in the corner where the stove is, as soon as I get out two rows I have to jog over to pick up the beginning of the counter containing the sink. Should I line that up as ground zero and work backwards to the stove?

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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-13-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Going over to home depot to pick up some materials for up coming project Monday
Edited on Fri Jun-13-08 04:03 PM by Wash. state Desk Jet
I will take a look at the flooring. Inter locking and traffic master ,it seems to me it should install same as any other traffic master product. There is cutting and fitting involved. A small table saw ,a roto zip is handy and a 12 inch compound miter saw,plus skill saw. Each box comes with installation instructions ,you start where the directions say to start. Cutting and fitting.

The areas where it jogs you say, that most likely is more like cutting and fitting tile,as in a tile in counter top .

Bending it up, the contractor did not know what material you were talking about. You do that with vinyl sheet flooring or counter top laminate ,using a heat gun to heat the laminate to shape the bends and curves.

You should put some pics up of the problem areas you are encountering.
I can get a contractor to contractor consult at home depot on the installation procedures of that particular product line in traffic masters product line, as though I am considering selling it to my clients.

Every home depot store must sell a million dollars inventory a day just to keep the doors open!And so if they can't rob my job by stealing my clients ,than at the very least ,they can sell me on the products!Since they buy in mega bulk ,there prices are hard for other suppliers to beat. but where they get you is on the special orders. The deal prices are limited to what ever products they are pushing at the time.
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-13-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. new product
Score and snap , Didn,t catch one of the store installers today. Was buying flooring material for a project, pergo.
And paint,my compressor hates home depot paint ,but the clients credit paid for it all.

What did you find out reading the directions in the box?
You can start in the middle or you can start at one wall and work your way across.If you were to start in the middle ,you would be dividing the difference at the end runs equally.Some methods recommend starting in the middle. Example a six inch cut at the end run at one wall and it's opposite. The kick plates hide the short cuts,your cabinets.

The other thing of course is keeping your lines straight,perfectly square. I use snap lines to set the first three rows.
And what did you find out about the glue on those tiles? Is it a new type of adhesive? More powerful than what you might find on a armstrong peel off 12"by 12 " ?



But what does the manufacturer directions say about just where to start?
That's what I would check out before I started. Did you know home depot has installation classes at the stores? They also sell installation videos.
The video may be very helpful.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Pics
Here's the first bad area.



The kitchen counter sticks out. If I were to shove the stove in flush with the wall, I wouldn't be able to get the door open. I thought about putting a cabinet in there but that's going to cause other problems.

Because it's a back area out of sight (there's eventually going to be a counter covering it, I was going to start lined up with the counter, work back under the stove and put extra in the little back area.

Then I've got the rest of the kitchen.



Fortunately the L goes straight forward one way, then the other leg goes straight down the hall so I'm not in too bad shape.

Then there's the bathroom.



I've got the laminate out in the hall which I want to cover over so people running out of the bathroom with wet feet to get the phone aren't slipping. There is, however, no laminate in the bathroom 'cause it'll really warp. Hence, I've got to drop down about 1/2 inch somehow or other. Frankly, I'm tempted just to put laminate in anyway just to keep it all level, and if it warps, just replace it. It'll cost about $20 for the little area it covers.

The big problem is the toilet.



My contractor already flooded my studio trying to pull it out. There's also the cabinet to the left. I need something to cover up the 6 inch space where the leg is to the left.
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. On the holes
Edited on Sat Jun-14-08 02:18 AM by Wash. state Desk Jet
where are those holes ,kick plates or floor? if it's the floor ,you have to patch those holes. Do you know what a sheet rock button patch is?
Where there is nothing behind the sheet rock between the studs,you glue a piece of sheet rock from the inside ,using a string or even screws to hold the patch in place until the glue dries,than you glue another piece over that to match wall depth=button patch. So with your jig saw or saws all you make the hole big enough to slip a piece of material underneath to form a button patch. You screw in a eye bolt center to hold the patch material in place while you drive screws in,than you patch over that for a flush fit! Floor button patch, but you don.t want too many of those in your floor!And of course you use wood,not sheet rock!
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. You got a lot going here.
Edited on Sat Jun-14-08 05:20 PM by Wash. state Desk Jet
You shut off the water ,and to the house if necessary to remove toilet. No doubt you will want to replace or install a valve and new water line to the toilet. What I do before pulling the toilet is pump the water out of the tank and bowl. You can buy a little hand pump at hardware ,such as a kerosene pump for draining the heater tank,about $2.00 for the pump.Shut off water-flush,than pump out tank and bowl. You have got to pull that toilet and deal with the entire issue. You will most likely want to replace the flange, as well.And if your house shut off doesn't do it ,than shut the water off at the meter.

Based on what I am seeing in your bathroom ,I would pull the sink and vanity out as well and bring the floor up to grade.And I would check all plumbing and wiring as well.Are you floating over the existing floor as you said before? If so bring the bathroom floor sub flooring to level grade with the existing floor-ply wood.And change all valves.

And have you experimented with cutting a piece of your new flooring material yet?

I don't know the measurement between the stove and wall, but if the area will not accommodate a cabinet than we use filler Pieces for that,the same material as your cabinets, you may need to special order that, come as close as you can ,or cut and stain to match.And do you know what, the bathroom floor just may be the place to start the flooring project. You can use a tie strip between bathroom floor and outer floor at the threshold. Of float the floor out and continue. At the door is where it gets a little tricky, but there is where you take your time, in fact address that as a separate issue. Take the floor up to the door,where it starts to get tricky,than take a break and come back and readdress the issue. From there you continue, therefore you start the kitchen floor at the bathroom. Unless of course yo change direction of pattern, in that case you use a tie strip.

The L shape is not a issue. You start at a far corner of the longest wall,at the opposite wall the cut goes inside the molding ,or equally divide the difference ,which is more cutting. Do a lay out and see what you got before you start.Since you have the L,I would put the short cuts on that wall because it ends at the L.And less cutting that way!
Or if you come out at the bathroom ,you simply proceed.

And having taken a second look at the space between the stove and wall, use a filler piece. Tag in some wood to the floor and wall 2x4-6-or 8,what ever than tag your finished filler piece to that for your finished look. Your counter top floats over that butting up to the stove,and it's finished!

And when you pull the toilet ,why don't you box in that inch and 1/2 pipe? frame it in and sheet rock it for a finish look to your bathroom. I assume thats a vent,am I right?does that line carry up to the second level or continue on up threw the roof?

By the way home depot carries these cool new one piece toilets for about $100.00 ,I just installed one in a apartment and the people just love it.Has a very stylish look about it and very very easy to keep clean.
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-15-08 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I ment 1 and 1/2 inch drain pipe or vent line!
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-15-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I had my ex-father-in-law over for a look
He's kind of adopted me as the son he never had.

He thinks I should create a wooden box to fill in the area next to the stove and hold up the counter top.

He's a lot more worried about cutting the countertop itself especially since we can't figure out how to change the saw blade. We seem to be missing the special wrench needed to hold the blade shaft still.

If I've got enough tile, it looks like it will fit perfectly down the hall, then into the kitchen. That way it will be relatively straight going down the kitchen, then I'll just have to custom cut all the oddball places it has to fit.

The pipe beside the toilet is actually the water feed for the toilet. I'm going to put a shutoff on top of it and leave it like that. I don't care what it looks like.

I'm torn between picking up some 1/4" plywood and levelling off the bathroom floor (which causes a whole new set of headaches) and just laying it the way it is. EFIL said that basically I can just do it once, if I hate it, it's such a small area I can just do it over.

He has a silly way of emptying the toilet that works great - a turkey baster.
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I replaced the turkey baster with the $2.00 hand pump!
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 03:51 AM by Wash. state Desk Jet
And the turkey baster does work great!Paint the water line,what the hell! It will look better. You can spread 4x8 sheets of thin sheet if you don't want to raise the floor in your bathroom the 1/4 inch. We use the same material used to resurface a hallow core door or veneered door. 1/8 th. inch or even less. That is done when going over sheet flooring that is old and the job calls for resurfacing not tearing out the existing flooring material or adding sub flooring. Has a smooth finish surface you glue and nail it down.Than put your new material over it. It 's cost is less than ply wood. Just tell the guy in lumber you got mad and kicked your foot threw several hallow core interior doors and you need the stuff to resurface those doors, they will know what you want! Just kidding ,but I am sure you see what I mean. The thin grade veneer will give you the smooth surface to lay your new flooring over.

Use ring shank nails and liquid nail for glue. On the 4xs 8 spread your nails every eight inches on your lines.

Ain't it fun, good luck. And buy or barrow a good skill saw.
Spent the day with the womans parents today, It's like that.
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Silver Gaia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Just a quick post to say I agree with this. It's good advice, IMO.
Our landlord laid self-adhesive tile in this house. Tiles started popping up after about 6 months. It doesn't seem to do well with heat, like where heating vents are located, or with moisture, like near a sink. It's been a real mess. They also tend to come up at the edges and become tattered in high traffic areas. I'd definitely use extra glue with self-adhesive tile.
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