Now that I'm in charge of next month's photo contest

[RagingInMiami]

I would like to set some standard and basic rules for future contests. Something that would be set in stone for every contest. It would be our constitution.

So state your opinion on this thread about anything along these line. Let's come up with a set of rules to vote on.

For example, old photos vs. new photos. I don't think there should be a restriction, but maybe other people do.

Or like is it acceptable to change your photos once you have entered? I'm undecided on that one.

And then the whole hosting and winning thing. Is hosting the contest such an honor? I take it as such but I wish it did not disqualify me from the contest.

We should also discuss size limits.

EDIT: Typo

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. Some thoughts again

Old/vs new... who cares... this is not a peer-reviewed photo club.

changing photos... yes, but only before the deadline, and only if the moderator agrees

hosting/winning... why should the winner be out of the contest? I mean it is just a poll with no names, right?

How could the winner influence the voting any more than anyone else can?

Size limits, yes... I feel 800x640 should be the largest allowed, and from what I read, even that is too big for some people, but too small for us.

[ET Awful]

3. Agreed.

I would also add -

In the polls, there should be no discussion of the photos or their merits. Voting and kicking of the thread only.

Statements about the merits of individual photos can skew the results quite easily.

[Ms. Toad]

4. 800 x 640 should fit on standard monitors

It's pretty much what I use when I design web pages - and I check my pages using a variety of browsers and screens (with a variety of resolution settings).

Some of the entries this month were larger...

Hosting/winning/entering - I don't really care, since it is just for fun.

...but since you asked about influencing the outcome, if I had a killer water photo - and I was allowed to enter - I might select water as the theme. (Maybe Raging has a killer sex photo :evilgrin:) Some hosts have rearranged entries for the preliminary polls, rather than in groups of ten in the order entered - as host I might place my photo in a group with others I considered less likely to beat mine, and I might also post all of the photos I considered stellar in a single group so only a couple of them made it into the final 10 - so I didn't have to compete against the best of the rest in the final 10. (Of course, I'd probably pick incorrectly and lose anyway...)

Unfortunately, encountering slimy, cutthroat tactics is an occupational hazard, so they tend to pop out at me.

[alfredo]

39. 800X640! Have mercy on us dial up users.

[Ms. Toad]

2. Whoa pony.....

Unless we have a permanent contest host I doubt any "rules" will be taken as anything other than suggestions - and I'm not sure you would find universal agreement that a permanent set of rules is a good thing.

I know some folks are disconcerted when the rules change from month to month. Others seem to revel in unpredictably. Personally I'm happy to have each host create and post a set of rules that are known guidelines for that particular contest - which may or may not be the same rules for the next month.

That said, I think its pretty important for every host to post the license (or something similar), so we don't leave F. Gordon twisting in the wind if an entrant who did not expect their work to be posted in the winner's gallery on smugmug is unhappy when it occurs. For those who weren't around, a copyright flap a couple months ago resulted in a few unpleasant conversations, hurt feelings, and the loss of several months of previous contests from the photogroup's galleries on smugmug. One unhappy entrant to a previous contest apparently had not heard the unspoken rule that entering the contest granted permission to move the entries to the semi-permanent off site galleries after the contest - so it's pretty important to vocalize that expectation.

[RagingInMiami]

7. That's why I posted this thread

To see what the photo group thinks. Every month, there is always discussion about setting permament guidelines, but nothing gets done.

For example, what are the guidelines in case the winning contestant decides he or she does not want to host the contest? That has happened before which forced the second place winner to host the contest.

The this month, the host got TSed and Blue_in_AK stepped in to host the contest, but she did that on her own initiative.

But in both cases, the runner up became the host, which disqualified them. I know in both cases, neither wanted to be disqualified.

I want to take this opportunity and allow people to state their opinions like they do every month, but maybe this time, we could do something about it.

[Ms. Toad]

8. There are two questions

Should we have permanent guidelines
If so, what should they be.

I was reacting to your apparent assumption that the group had alreaded decided it wanted permanent rules - which I don't think is did...

[TahitiNut]

27. There's a necessary corollary question, then.

If there are guidelines (and not rules/laws), and they're enforceable (enforcing new v. old can't usually be done), then what are the penalties??

Only in answering this can many people (myself included) intelligently 'vote' whether to have guidelines/rules/laws in the first place!

I suggest that an entrant who violates the guidelines do so at the risk (certainty?) of losing votes in the contest. If there are rules as well as guidelines, where violation of those rules results in disqualification, I'd insist (or would not participate) that they be both uniformly enforceable and held to a minimum.

[Ms. Toad]

32. And I thought I was being a pain

by suggesting that we needed to talk about whether or not to have rules/guidelines/a constitution before we started deciding what they were :silly:

[GOPFighter]

5. Setting standard rules in a contest like this is like herding cats

Unless we can convince someone to host the contest on a long term basis (and I nominate you or Blue_In_AK).

Another concern is that I don't want the contest to get too rigid and lose it's laid-back flavor.

Anyway, those are my concerns.

On the particulars:
* I don't favor restrictions on old photos
* I oppose changing photos after one has been submitted. It's hard enough to keep track of 30 photos, but if people are allowed to substitute before the deadline it could turn into a nightmare.
* I think the winner should host the next contest, but should be disqualified from entering mainly because they get to pick the topic. If they select a topic, and their photo wins, there will be some who will suspect the host picked that topic because they had a stunning entry.
* Size limits. I support limiting the photo to something like 800 pixels in the largest dimension.
* I would also like to suggest setting date guidelines, such as: the submission post will be posted between the 14th and 16th of the month, etc. so we know when to start looking.

GOPFighter

[RagingInMiami]

6. We don't have to have two extremes

It will always retain its laid-back flavor, but there should be some guidelines for each contest.

Or does the photo group believe that it should basically be a free-for-all with every contest, that perhaps the real prize in winning the contest is come up with your own rules that month?

If that's the case, then let's make that the guidelines. Every contest, there is always discussion about what should and should not be allowed. I want to have something basic and concrete, even if simply says, the host of the contest sets his or her own guidelines each month.

So let's hear it from everybody.

And what about coming up with a method where the results are not so visible during the contest? I'm not sure if this has any effect on how people vote, but it has been discussed before. If we could somehow hide the actual votes from the lounge thread, but post them in the photo group, we can still have an "open election" but something that does not automatically influence other voters.

Of course, if anyone is that interested in seeing who's winning, they can always come to the photo group. And this would be stated in the lounge thread. It would be open for everybody.

Does anyone have any idea how this could be done?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. sounds like a Skinner or Elad question

has anyone ever brought it to their attention?

[Blue_In_AK]

15. HEY!!! Everybody else thinks YOU, GOPFighter,

should be the permanent host. :evilgrin:

[Mutley]

21. I second this.

[GOPFighter]

33. Yikes!

:hide:

[alfredo]

9. If the host gets to post an entry, they should not be able to

pick the subject.

[RagingInMiami]

11. I agree

[Mutley]

13. As do I.

I think if the host gets to enter the contest then we should have a poll to decide what the theme will be.

[alfredo]

14. yeah, but I think people would be less inclined to vote for a

person who has already won.

[Mutley]

20. Can the mods completely delete the submission thread once the

contest has been posted in the lounge? that way no one will be able to just come in the photo group to see which pic belongs to which poster. Then people will be voting based on the picture and not the photographer.

[alfredo]

23. Good idea. All the original poster needs to do is ask the mods.

Another idea is the image link could be IM'd to the host, then they could post it with the name of the picture, but not the author.

[Mutley]

24. Also a good idea.

[Mutley]

12. I've wondered if we are allowed to edit photos for the contest

on Photoshop or something like it. I haven't done so yet, except to crop and resize, because I wasn't sure if it was okay.

[Blue_In_AK]

16. I've edited a little bit on some of mine...

...but just to brighten them up a little, nothing major.

[Ms. Toad]

17. My general rule of thumb

Is that I only make changes I could make in a traditional darkroom - color adjustment, softening/sharpening focus, cropping, increasing/decreasing the "exposure" in selected portions of the picture. That is the distinction at least one of the diving magazines I read that feature photographs uses. I guess it still gives me an advantage over traditional print photography, in that I don't have to waste as much time getting just the right settings/filters/development time, etc. since the changes are instantaneously applied.

I make exceptions where the alteration would be obvious (I considered entering one this month that I modified to look like a painting) or I try to disclaim the photo has having been artistically modified (equally valid from an artistic point of view - I'm just not sure it still qualifies as photography rather than as blended media).

It doesn't bother me if other folks use other distinctions for the contest (or elsewhere ...)

[Ms. Toad]

26. Some examples

Original Photo:

#1

Modified photos:

#2 #3


#2 Same photo, edited with digital darkroom substitutions for standard darkroom techniques (color and contrast adjusted and cropped to center the tuft more. I would feel free to enter this in any photography contest that did not expressly forbid darkroom work - either digital or traditional:


#3 Something beyond photography. I painted over the red spot, drew in part of the tufts to remove the black seeds/bugs, and stretched the right side of the photo to permit wider cropping on the left without unbalancing it. I would not enter this in a photography contest without making a disclaimer unless the rules that specifically permit multi-media entries. (If it is possible to do those things in a traditional darkrom I never got sophisticated enough to figure out how.)

I think the distinctions I make are relatively standard among former film photographers who generally did their own darkroom work and who have migrated to a digtal photography. (Many of the tools in the digital darkroom actually take their names and function from their physical counterparts).

[Mutley]

29. This helps a lot, thanks.

I'm not proficient enough with Photoshop to be able to edit something as much as #3, so I guess I have nothing to worry about.

[Ms. Toad]

30. It's really pretty easy...

and lots of fun.

If you've got photo shop software, and get really frustrated with the world, take a break for an hour or so and play with a picture. I find it's a great way to get some perspective on whatever has yanked my chain.

The clone tool is what I started with to delete creases and spots in old family photos. It's pretty easy to use - essentially an automated copy and paste tool. Right click to select the source part of the image, move the tool to the target location, then left click to paste the pixels that were copied. I copied the stem of the tuft leading into the bug/seed and pasted it over the bug.

Once you figure out the basics you can tweak it in a lot of ways (change the size of the copy area, change whether it covers the old stuff completely, change whether it has fuzzy or sharp edges).

I replaced the black spots/bugs primarily using the clone tool - and could have done all of the other editing that way, as well, although I have now found easier ways to do some of the bigger changes I made to this photo.

Note, though, the examples I gave are just my own standard (even though I have heard it expressed by quite a few other digital photographers I respect) - there are others in this forum who take a more purist view that photography is just what goes on inside the camera and lenses and darkroom work (whether digital or traditional) is cheating...

[Mutley]

36. That sounds cool actually.

I have several pictures that would be great if not for one small detail like that.

[GOPFighter]

28. Interesting question

I think cropping definitely should be allowed. My digital camera is a rangefinder so what I see in the viewfinder is quite a bit different than the photo. I can use the LCD to compose pictures, but the it significantly reduces battery life, so I prefer to do it on my computer.

As for editing the contrast, color balance, saturation, gamma, etc. These are all things I can control with settings in my camera if I'm willing to use the LCD viewer (but only in low light because of glare on my LCD). I prefer to do this on my computer. In my opinion, tweaks of settings that can controlled in a digital camera should be allowed.

I would draw the line at any modifications to the photo like removing the red spot in Ms. Toad's example, or removing power lines or unwanted objects, or painting new colors into objects, etc.

Fortunately, these contests are fairly meaningless and I suspect a lot of us don't invest a lot of emotion into the voting, just because from the comments I've heard here, the photos each of us picks to win usually end up languishing in the middle of the pack!

[Ms. Toad]

31. Sounds like pretty much the same line I'm drawing

The red dot removed, the bugs/spots removed, and the stretch of the right and left scenery are artistic modifications - but in my opinion beyond photography.

[DS1]

18. I've been iffy about cropping

and landscaping, and otherwise altering the original shot. These days with the resolution of digital cams and scanners, you could take just about any old careless shot and crop it to something special. That shot could be somewhere beautiful, and with a crop something special, but in my mind it's not the photo. It's cherry picking.

Of course, that's completely an honor-based rule.

[Blue_In_AK]

19. I don't even know how to crop. n/t

[Ms. Toad]

22. I haven't figured out how to make

a meaningful distinction between cropping and pulling the photo tighter using a different lens or a zoom - or turning the camera on its side to change from landscape to portrait (if that is what you mean by landscaping). One is done using the camera as a tool, the other is done using an enlarger, masks, etc. as tools.

I guess if I were used to controlling only one piece of the photographic process (the camera end) it would seem like a dramatic change - but my first extended foray into photography in high school and college was triggered by the attraction of the darkroom work - so I know first hand how much adjustment is possible (and is done) in traditional photography

The digital tools have given me a way to get back into that work (after a gap of a couple of decades), without the massive expense associated with a traditional darkroom - I doubt I'd be much interested in digital photography if I were limited to the camera end, since I was never big on additional lenses, flashes, and other camera equipment.

I suspect many, if not most, of the great print photos listed in another thread were cropped - at a minimum - and most were probably also adjusted to true color or lighting.

(That's not to say I don't also photo shop well beyond what I consider fair game in the context of photography - just two days ago I photo shopped my daughter's head on the body of a model wearing the dress she wanted for her birthday - I just would never display that kind of alteration without a disclaimer, since that kind of alteration takes it out of the realm of photography into something else.)

[intheflow]

25. Yes, but what if the shot you want is too far away to capture?

Then cropping's the only option. For example, my contest entry last time was cropped because I didn't have a lens that captured "the essence" of what I saw--but I took the shot anyway, knowing I could crop it when I got home. I take photos knowing I can crop them--and have done so since I started shooting. I have a lot of enlarged, cropped film shots framed in my home, it's the way I shoot. Please don't take that away from me!

[NashVegas]

34. In Most Cases

We wouldn't even know what was cropped, unless it was so severe as to be obvious. I wouldn't worry about it.

[randr]

35. thanks RIM and congrats

I would participate more often if the "rules" where clearer.
I do not like to spend time selecting a theme each month.
I would like to propose that the theme be suggested by the month itself.
Each month has holidays, events, history, weather, etc. that is unique to its time period.
Submissions would have to discuss relevancy to theme.
As for the other suggestions:
800x640 is an excellent choice.
Editing is a part of photography. Submissions should be allowed to be altered in anyway the artist chooses. The final call will be made come judging time.

[F.Gordon]

37. Thanks for askin'

I tried to avoid posting here, but you know how anal I am.
:evilgrin:

1. IMO. There should be a set of basic guidelines. I don't mind the different Hosts trying new stuff, but I think it can have an adverse effect. Look at last month. Many people had thought they'd entered the contest by posting in the prelim thread. The "first stage" voting had to be transferred to the Lounge after it was realized that there wasn't enough votes in the group to determine a "final 10".

2. I'd prefer that all entries be new. But... I realize that this just won't work and it would be a real hassle and costly for the film people to shoot, process, and digitize every month.

3. The Host should be able to enter the contest. As long as they don't pick the theme. If they do you like you did.... hold a vote... then I don't see why a Host can't enter a contest. Since we never got a group concensus on using "Volunteer Hosts"... since the winner is the Host... why screw the Host? There is also the matter of people being thrown in the role of playing Host when they weren't planning on it.

4. There should be size and SIZE guidelines. Not just the number of pixie dust particles that make up the dimension of the photo, but the actual file size. I've seen small photos that were HUGE files. There is no real reason to ever exceed 150K for any web image. I've gotten lazy on this one myself on "non-contest" photos, but the couple of contests I entered I reduced the image to a smaller file size.

5. A little clarity would be nice. We don't have to have rigid dates and times but it'd be nice if each Host every month lay out a rough guideline of their intentions. Example.... hold theme vote on these dates. Submission thread to be started on such and such date. Actual contest to start on a this or that date.

6. No penalties or rejections. T-Nut asks what the penalty should be for violating the rules. I say none. And a photo shouldn't be rejected if it doesn't meet the "rules". If someone sees a "rule violation" then they can politely mention the "violation" to that person in the seperate "comments thread" (which IMO we should keep) or by PMing that person.

7. DON'T comment on specific photos in the contest thread!!!. If a lounger wants to... fine. If you want to point out positive aspects of ALL the photos then go for it. But don't single out one photo.

ON EDIT: 8. People should be able to change their photo submission during the time limit set for submissions. and 9. ANY kind of post processing should be allowed. Cropping, flipping, painting, "photoshopping". Anything. That's it. I go bye bye now...

That's it. Waaaaay past my bed time. If any of this post is coherent I'll be amazed. I'll re-read it tommorrow and think to myself..."what the hell was I thinking".
:silly:

[Mutley]

38. I think it's coherent.

I don't really know how to change the file size of a picture myself. I can change the pixels, and that makes the file size a little smaller, but still not under 150K. I have GIMP - not Photoshop - but I don't really know how to use it. All that "layers" stuff just confuses the hell out of me. :silly: