How will the non-Harry Potter fans take to the plot in the Deathly Hallows? SPOILERS

[The Backlash Cometh]

I read the book. Loved it, but even though I didn't know how she was going to get there, I suspected that J.K. Rowlings was going to have Harry accept his fate, and lay down his life for the "greater good." And I couldn't help thinking then that the rabid-Christians would not like it, because there would be similarities to the way that Jesus Christ also willingly gave up his life to benefit all mankind. After I read it, everything was written in a way that I felt few would miss that similiarity, but I'm not sure, so I'm asking everyone who read it to give me their p.o.v. Did anybody else see the parallel between Harry Potter accepting his fate, as Dumbledore perceived it, and Jesus Christ accepting his fate as God ordained it? The confusion over the expectations from the fatherly figure, the anxiety over the decision, and the final passive acceptance. The parallel is very strong.

Now, I loved the story and I think the writer deserves kudos, but, how long can we expect before the bible thumpers start burning the books?

[XemaSab]

1. Definite, definite parallels

But JKR is pretty secular, so the sacrifice was not so others would go to heaven, but so they would continue to live.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. That's something interesting to think about.

Harry surrendered because he would save lives. Think for a minute if Jesus would do things differently if he knew that his surrender to Pontius Pilate and eventual crucification would result in so much misunderstanding among his followers that wars would be started on his behalf, and that people would actually seek divisive theocracies in order to "worship" him. If Jesus had that kind of knowledge beforehand, would he have surrendered so easily before leaving a legacy that could never be misinterpreted?

[skater314159]

16. ~sigh~ blame the jerks, not Jesus

If Jesus had that kind of knowledge beforehand, would he have surrendered so easily before leaving a legacy that could never be misinterpreted?

I think he tried really hard to make sure that his followers would remember love and treating one another equally, but you can only do so much. I can't really think of much else he could have done differently, as he taught with examples, parables, visual aids, and led by example. I mean you can only do so much to stop jerks from being jerks.

Which brings me to a thought, I think Jesus wasn't responsible for his followers being jerks just like Dumbledore (and the other teachers who were at Hogwarts at the time) aren't responsible for Tom Marvolo Riddle becoming Lord Voldemort. Voldie made the decision himself to use power as his ultimate goal instead of love like other Witches and Wizards did.

I don't see how there can be a solution to the fact that bad people can use a good idea to achieve evil ends...

[CBHagman]

26. That would make a good bumper sticker.

Blame the jerks, not Jesus.

I'm sure you've seen the button/sticker with the slogan "Lord, save me from Your followers!"

[Pithy Cherub]

3. There was an actual church in this book.

I do not remember any church or vicarage in the other books. There are references to Christian holidays, yet no mention of prayers though this book spoke about a train that seemed destined to the Wizarding World's version of Heaven. Christian themes are all through the books, yet the fundies don't want to believe that - its inconvenient to their cause. Some voted at my site for best book. It surprised me to see what a mixed bag it was - no clear winner. Half-Blood Prince is leading. No one has voted for Chamber of Secrets, yet that book was instrumental to even make the Deathly Hallows possible. Chamber really set the whole thing up - but it is not my favorite. I think on different days,since reading the last book, I can't state a clear favorite, yet.:shrug:

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. I made the same remark about the Chamber of Secrets.

My poor hubby, who slaves all day, seven days a week and who has little more time than to share the joy of Harry Potter with us through DVD, sheepishly asked me to tell him the ending of Book 7. What a mistake that was for him because I couldn't just plainly answer by telling him that Harry lived or died and it took 30 minutes, at least, to explain the plots and twists that got us to the end. However, I found myself beginning with the Chamber of Secrets.

The only spoiler that someone stated before the book came out that I didn't catch in the reading, was the reference to ghosts, and why some people move on and some people stay. I figured if I had read it, I would have remembered it, and, perhaps, there would have been a reference to heaven. But, I don't recall coming across it.

[CBHagman]

5. Harry has a talk with Nearly Headless Nick in book five.

Harry's discussions with Luna and Nearly Headless Nick in The Order of the Phoenix touch on the concepts of ghosts and an afterlife. I'm not satisfied that Rowling explained everything, but the events and encounters in the last three books suggest that the nature of the afterlife depends on how the deceased faced death. Luna believes firmly that she will be reunited with her deceased mother in the next life, and Nick explains that not every dead person takes the form of a ghost.

The very title The Deathly Hallows made me think that Rowling will cover the afterlife more fully in the final book. However, my understanding of the term "hallows" caused me to believe that she would resolve the battle against Voldemort somewhat differently.

By the way, I have been looking for references to God in the books and noticed that Ron says, "Thank God," in book seven. Granted, the expression is uttered so casually that it's lost its power, but since Rowling does so many things very deliberately, I wondered if the wizarding world is indeed under a benevolent God.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. You're right that she left that very open.

It doesn't sound like she wanted to be specific. There's Christmas vacation and Easter Vacation references, which, you know, kind of makes sense when you consider that they have students with muggle relatives. But the great beyond seems to be dealt with differently by different characters. There doesn't seem to be a unified consent of what comes next.

The Infiri seems to be like a purgatory, not heaven nor hell. But that's the only place where you find a collective group of dead people.

[skater314159]

17. Here is my personal rating...

... but it is subject to change.

1)Deathly Hallows
2)Half-Blood Prince
3)Prisoner of Azkaban
4)Order of the Phoenix
5)Chamber of Secrets
6)Philosopher's Stone

[XemaSab]

19. It's funny how different people LOVE different books

but here, too, there was no love for CoS.

Which is odd, because it's the first book that is the odd one out, plotwise. :shrug:

[sinkingfeeling]

7. Certainly. The end was very New Testament. The RW critics will probably say that

the series was a rip-off of "The Chronicles of Narnia".

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. The CofN was incredibly lame.

The best part was the visual effects, but the story was very uninspired. For one thing, how could the vileness, who was no spring chicken, not understand the inscription? At least with Harry Potter Voldermort was paving the way to new ground, pushing the limits of Black Magic, so nobody really knew exactly how it would end.

[skater314159]

18. CofN *was* lame...

... and it is definately Children's Literature. I read it as a kid, and it was pretty good then. When the movie came out, a friend got me a paperback with all of the series in a single volume. I re-read it, and I couldn't believe I liked it as a kid. (The whole thing about Lucy, make-up and "stockings" made me want to chunk the book across the room!) I just finished it because I am a dorky bibliophile who has to finish reading whatever I start... not because I was enjoying it. The end still rankles me - ~~~a trainwreck?!?!~~~ What a cop-out! C.S. may have done good Anglican theology in his day, but as for me, I can't stomach it.

I like JK's writing in that you can tell she is a person of the Anglican faith, but she doesn't construct the stories in a way that precludes people (children *and* adults) of other faiths and none from reading and enjoying the stories. It's not like JK views the books as an opportunity to write an apologetic for her own faith - she just views it as a chance to share Harry and his wonderful world with us.

[XemaSab]

20. I thought the Tory politics were ODIOUS

:o

[skater314159]

21. Yeh... I ignored that... couldn't ignore the horrid theology though n/t

[FloridaJudy]

9. Interesting title to that chapter

In which the "dead" Harry converses with Dumbledore: "King's Cross". I wondered if that was a glaringly obvious reference to Golgotha, but then maybe I was reading too much into it.

The myths in which a Hero has to sacrifice himself for the good of others are universal, and not exclusively Christian. The fundies would have to burn all the Greek myths, the Teutonic sagas, Asian epics, Native American stories - oh, wait - they're already trying to do that.

[CBHagman]

10. Well, I certainly had not thought of that angle!

Hmm. It may be time to go back and look at that chapter again.

But think of how many characters in HP live up to the words of Jesus: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Dumbledore emphasizes more than once that love is the greatest power on Earth, and more than once love comes to the aid of individual characters and indeed the wizarding world.

Love, friendship, loyalty -- such things mean virtually nothing to Voldemort. He can't even get his reptilian little head around the fact that Snape is capable of love. Voldemort assumes Snape's feelings for Lily were entirely sexual.

So in Rowling's world, not just Harry but also Dobby, Neville, Lily, and various others are capable or at least willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. It is love that conquers.

[eridani]

11. And the process of conquest is never easy

I keep thinking of the MLK, Jr. saying "Love is not the answer; it is the assignment."

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Interesting. Thanks for bringing it up.

Had to look it up: "Golgotha also called Calvary (from Latin calva: “bald head,” or “skull”), skull-shaped hill in Jerusalem, the site of Jesus' Crucifixion. It is referred to in all four Gospels. The hill of execution was outside the city walls of Jerusalem, apparently near a road and not far from the sepulchre where Jesus was buried."

[sinkingfeeling]

13. I certainly hadn't made that connection. My thoughts were of King's Cross Station in

London since the description was so accurate!

?&

[Matilda]

14. Yes, because King's Cross Station is where the Hogwart's Express departs.

That was the connection I made in my mind.

[Goblinmonger]

15. Exactly my thoughts

And his walk to the woods was very Calvary. He stopped to look at Mary, I mean Ginny, along the way, too. I thought it was over the top Christ imagery, but I'm a lit teacher so I may have a lower tolerance.

[skater314159]

22. Sssssshhhh! Let's keep some texts for ourselves :) n/t

[1monster]

23. King's Cross is a railway station in England... reread the chapter. If I remember

correctly, Dumbledore makes some reference to changing trains or something like that...

[Matilda]

24. A Christian website that does see the light ....

From Christianity Today, an explanation of the inscriptions on the
gravestones of Dumbledore's mother and sister, and of Harry's parents:

"Albus Dumbledore quotes the Bible word-for-word in placing an inscription on the tomb of his mother and sister, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Here's the full passage, Matthew 6:19-24:

"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

(snip)

"After Harry and Hermione discover the grave of Dumbledore's mother and sister, they come upon the grave of Harry's parents. On that tombstone too is an epitaph, another word-for-word quote from the Bible. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Corinthians 15:26). I think it most likely that Dumbledore is responsible for this inscription also, as there seems to be no other person in the Potters' lives who would take precedence over him in this decision. Now in the context of that Scripture passage it is the crucifixion and literal resurrection of Jesus that conquers death. Rowling and Dumbledore could have put anything on the Potters' tombstone. They did not have to quote the Bible. They did not have to reference the New Testament passage that most explicitly connects Jesus' death and resurrection with a genuine faith. But they did quote that very passage. She seems to me too careful a writer to make this reference without its fullest meaning in mind."

It's a very interesting article, and there are others on the same site.
Seems the author knows his New Testament much better than the fundies
do.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/48545

"Lily and Harry see not only each others' eyes and the love they have for each other, but also the profound place of loving sacrifice to which each of them have come. It is not enough that they are mother and son. It is "enough" that they both give the truest love, sacrificial love. And their eyes tell them so. "The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light" (Matthew 6:22). That light, the light of Lily's and Harry's eyes, comes only from one source, sacrificial love. And their sacrificial love, like all sacrificial love, comes only after everything else - possessions and self-interest and temptations, everything - is set aside for love's sake."

Beautiful.

[Matilda]

25. Hang the Fundies.

I've had some fun finding new wallpapers for my desktop, featuring the sexy Slytherin himself.

This looks good, and the icons stand out well against the background:



But these are good too:

[XemaSab]

27. Every time you think dirty thoughts about Snape,

God kills a kitten! :o

[Matilda]

28. Good grief!

:spank:

[XemaSab]

29. I'm series!

:o

[LWolf]

30. The savior/messiah archetype appears repeatedly

throughout the history of literature. The modern science fiction/fantasy genre, like ancient mythology in particular, is full of archetypal characters.

The savior that sacrifices himself for others is a common archetype, and I agree that HP fits the bill.

I pointed out, somewhere on a Mercedes Lackey thread in this forum a couple of years ago, that Vanyel Ashkevron does as well.

If we really start looking, we'll find plenty more. Spock? (The needs of the many....)

Frodo? What do you think?

The real issue, of course, is whether you think the christian christ refers to the real man, Jesus of Nazareth, or the archetype. How much of the story is real, and how much is metaphor? I doubt you'll find agreement in your lifetime.

ANY character referred to as a savior archetype is likely to garner objection from some of the christian groups and individuals; HP is just more likely because he's more universally read and known.

[Matilda]

31. I could have accepted Harry's death for that reason.

I thought she probably wouldn't do it because of the readers who are children, and if she had allowed
Harry to die, Voldemort would have had to die too to prove that evil cannot triumph over good. The
scene where Harry walked unarmed into the Forbidden Forest to meet Voldemort was very beautifully
written, and reduced me to tears. Getting him out of the situation was a very neat piece of writing,
and took nothing away from his willingness to be the sacrificial lamb.

Also significant was Snape's death as a sacrifice that would be the means of his final redemption.
I wept for this man whom life had never given an even break, and for me the most complex and
interesting character, but his death was always inevitable.

[LWolf]

32. I agree.

Snape's death was always inevitable, and I thought it would be sacrificial.

I thought that he would die while fighting, defending Harry. The ignoble killing by the snake while a prisoner disappointed me. Reading what you've written, though, I realize that his death fits his life. Never given an even break.

[CBHagman]

33. It also further reinforces the theme of love versus power-lust.

In one of the books -- I think it was The Goblet of Fire -- Voldemort refers to a faithful servant at Hogwarts who will be rewarded, and it's unclear who that is. Then when learn that he thinks Snape has always been his inside man, so I think we can assume that Voldemort was referring to him.

But the moment Voldemort believes that Snape is an obstacle in the way of the quest for power, there is not a moment of hesitation: the obstacle must go. However, Voldemort was always wrong about Snape's loyalties, and he's proved equally wrong about the elder wand. Add on top of that Voldemort's failure to reckon with love and sacrifice, and you've got the seeds of his well-deserved downfall -- truly the banality of evil, as he is remorseless and blind.

By the way, someone on this thread or another mentioned that Snape's love for Lily wasn't selfless, that he would have tossed James Potter under the bus to have Lily. Well, we all know Snape hated Potter with good reason, but he also spent the better part of two decades grieving for Lily -- and ultimately choosing to be become a better man through that love (i.e., the willingness to assist Dumbledore and protect Harry Potter).

It's also clear that love, friendship, loyalty, and compassion thwart Voldermort several times over. Witness Narcissa Malfoy's desire to save her son, or Regulus Black's sacrifice, or Molly Weasley's fierce mother-love as the impetus for the destruction of Bellatrix Lestrange, perhaps the most remorseless character next to Voldemort.

[Matilda]

34. Love and Sacrifice are the two dominant themes in the books.

Like L Wolf, I had expected to see Snape vindicated at the end, going down fighting beside Harry,
and his death through Nagini seemed tawdry compared to what I'd imagined.

Then I reflected that if he had, as Voldemort believed, figured out the significance of the Elder
Wand, he knew that Draco had disarmed Dumbledore and was the rightful owner of the Wand before
Harry disarmed Draco (which neither Snape nor Voldemort knew). He could have saved his own life by
giving Voldemort that information, but he chose to protect Draco and died in his place. Rather than
dying as a result of a mistake as I first thought, he had made a conscious and deliberate choice to
give his life to save another human being.

That's why I think there are two saviour figures in Deathly Hallows - Harry Potter and Severus Snape.