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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:51 PM
Original message
OT: What do you think?
This is an interview with Feingold:

What about arguments that Democrats should be coming together and focusing more on defeating Republicans than attacking each other in races like Connecticuts Democratic Senate primary, where Joe Lieberman is being challenged by Ned Lamont.

Well, that is a complicated situation. If Democrats dont seriously address the need to get the troops out of Iraq, then we might as well forget about it. That is going to be the defining issue in November. In that sense the Connecticut race, you could say it is a hindrance. Its also the possibility, depending on how it goes, that people will see this as proof that Democrats are willing to stand up to this intervention and the mistakes that weve made.

So you dont think it is a bad thing for the Democratic Party?

In some ways its bad, in some ways its good. Whats good about it is that its giving voice to the fact that the vast majority of Democrats are appalled that Democrats voted for this Iraq war and never should have. It was an enormous failure of the Democratic Party to not stand up to George Bush when he was dead wrong. Without this voice being given in Connecticut and other places, we are going to suffocate our own base. And our base will turn away from us. We could end up with a third party pretty soon. If the Democrats cant stand up to all the mistakes that Bush has made here, were not much of a party.

more...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14231344/page/2


This really bugs me. Why does he always go off on these opportunistic tangents?

Then there is the DLC thread. Which leads to this:


Thursday, August 10, 2006
Feingold Exposes Centrist Plot

Snip...

I was naturally curious to read what motivated all this gushing, and discovered a rather peculiar rant by Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) to a group of Wisconsin reporters that blamed the DLC for all the sins of the Democratic Party in the last decade or so.

I was particularly interested to learn from Feingold that the DLC "came up with the health care plan with the Clintons that was so complicated nobody could understand it." Gee, I seem to remember that the DLC actually opposed the Clinton Health Plan. "They are the ones that coalesced with the big corporations to pass unfair trade agreements that hurt America." Funny: I thought maybe this guy named Bill Clinton--following the tradition of every Democratic president going back to Martin Van Buren--had a bit more to do with, say, NAFTA than anybody at the DLC. And here's my favorite "bold" attack: "Feingold said DLC consultants 'instill fear in Democrats' by saying opposition to the war would be taken as not supporting the troops.... "Its the DLC that has cut off our ability to say things like, Lets get out of Iraq because its a bad idea."

Until now, I had no idea what vast powers we exercise around here. Al From or Bruce Reed or somebody gets quoted in the papers, and Democrats fall silent in terror. And the stuff about "DLC consultants" is beautifully vague. Unless I'm forgetting something, the chief political consultant for the last two Democratic presidential candidates was named Bob Shrum, whose relationship with the DLC is about as warm as Ned Lamont's with Joe Lieberman.

Look, folks, what the DLC does is to write policy papers, hold conferences, publish a magazine, and network among state and local elected officials. Three of us do blogs. Our staff is small by Washington think tank standards; our budget is a fraction of CAP's. Democrats are free to take the DLC's advice or leave it. It's hilarious to be told that attacking us represents some sort of profile in courage; it seems to have done wonders for the career of David Sirota, whose willingness to spit venom at the DLC has helped make him a quote machine in both the blogosphere and the mainstream media.

Snip...

The odd thing is that Russ Feingold is actually pretty popular here at Centrist Conspiracy HQ. He's usually refreshingly direct, and willing to be unorthodox in all sorts of different directions. But there's nothing in Democratic politics today more tediously orthodox than DLC-bashing. I do offer one suggestion to other bold, brave politicians out there: if you're going to do this, try and get the basic facts straight.

http://newdonkey.blogspot.com



Now this person is defending the DLC, whose leadership I detest, but the poster has a point: What is Feingold's point (and he's incorrect about the Clinton plan on top of it)?
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. What I hate what he said was this part:
Whats good about it is that its giving voice to the fact that the vast majority of Democrats are appalled that Democrats voted for this Iraq war and never should have.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, Russ. That IWR vote was a farce, and I am sick and tired of Dems turning on Dems a la Michael Moore to act like the Iraq War is anything but being Bush's War. Kerry sure as hell didn't think he was voting for the war that appeared in March 2003 -- his mistake was on a vote that really had no effect whatsoever on what Bush's actions were already going to be. There is no cause and effect between Dems voting yes to IWR and Bush going to war in Iraq. None. So we should stop acting like it is, and keeping that Karl Rove lie alive . . . .
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Rev. Al Sharpton kept it going also
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 05:16 PM by politicasista
Though he singled out Hillary he still kept the "voted for the war" spin going too. :-(

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Kerry says it too. I think we have to get over it (though this is clearly
not what they were doing) and push for a resolution of the crisis and a recognition by Senators that they regret their vote.

Actually, it is important because we may in a few weeks find ourselves in front of a similar situation (who knows where with these guys) and we have to be confident that they would not do the same thing. I am fairly confident that Kerry would not, but what about Hillary, ..

This said, I agree with ProSense that it is too bad. It would be more constructive for progressives in the Senate to form a group together in order to counter-balance the moderate wing of the party, but why is Feingold fending alone. Surely people like Boxer, Kennedy, Durbin, Harkin would belong to such a group.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. And the problem is
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 08:35 PM by politicasista
he (and other dems that voted for it) are stuck defending it.

We all know what the vote is for, but I just read an article (about 04) that said that the IWR vote hurt him politically and with moderates. :shrug:
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. This is the point. He has stopped defending it. He says it is wrong now.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I know he says it's wrong
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 08:38 PM by politicasista
and has apologized for it, but there will always be people that remembered that he "voted for it." And it's even pathetic that you have Feingold and Sharpton (who I really love) repeating the same lie.

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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. There is nothing you can do about that. It will pass, except for those
who simply will never support Kerry anyway.

If anything, it may win him respect from some people because he has the courage to acknowledge his error.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I think so too.
I just don't like that his name (and other Dems) is attached to all of this, it just seems that what Feingold and Sharpton said today and yesterday hurts more than helps. But I guess that it's political postering.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Definitively. And very damaging right now. It seems to be calling people
to vote third party, and, so close from a general election, it should not be the case.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I agree n/t
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. The American people slowly turned against this war
The polls from two years ago did not show that the vast majority (or even a plurality) of the American people were against the war. They had a brief shot of euphoria when they thought it might actually be won in a short period of time. Once that hope faded and it began to look like this was going to be a long, tough slough, then opinion began to change.

It began to dawn on the American people that the US was not really prepared for an occupation. The Bush Admin promised that this would be a quick and glorious campaign that would liberate a suffering people from the yoke of Saddam Hussein's oppression. Americans would be greeted as liberators, they would be festooned with flowers and given chocolates as thank you gifts for their wonderfulness in getting rid of Saddam.

Never happened. Some good was done in Iraq, but it has all faded away. We have a lot of incredible people who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they were betrayed by people in the Pentagon and the White House and their service has been treated callously and shamefully by an Admin that doesn't care about other people's sacrifices.

Sen. Feingold might be making the mistake of thinking that all Americans were always against the war. They were not. They currently want change in Iraq, but the withdrawal plans are not yet accepted either. The case has to be made still for this. Anything less is not accepting the reality of what Americans are thinking. Posts that say that if Kerry had voted against IWR all would have been well are deluded. There is no proof for that. Most Americans have agonized over what to do in Iraq and they don't see it as a simple matter, but something that requires thought, care and planning. No amount of revisionist history is going to change that.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. naked political opportunism
and a disappointment coming from Feingold, who I expect better from.


ps - I think the line about Sirota is hilarious, trashing the DLC is a good gig....

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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. Fine, I'll post it: I hate Russ Feingold.
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 06:33 PM by BlueIris
He's such a hack. A hack with "guts," sure...in the Dean sense of that term. He's a stubborn ass, who is getting inexplicable credit for "gutsiness" masquerading as "integrity" that is really just...assholishness that looks appealing to people who don't read real news, don't know how real history, don't know how to think critically about ideas or posit realistic solutions and don't want to vote for Kerry because they don't know anything about him. These are the same folks who don't understand the significance of Russ's horrific Roberts vote. The "future" of our Party. I feel sick whenever I think about them, and Russ fucking Feingold. My only consolation is that I'm quite certain he won't be president.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Dr. Ron thinks he'll be the Kucinich of '08
Maybe a little step up from that since he's a senator, but Feingold, who I do like in the Senate, doesn't worry me for '08. And some people really are purists on votes, so if they feel that strongly then they can go for the Feingold trio: No to the Patriot Act, No to IWR, and unequivocally for gay marriage. But, sorry, that ain't even close to mainstream America. In short, he's too liberal . . .
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. There in lies the problem:
How does Feingold, who seems to never miss an opportunity to bring up the IWR vote (and I know he knows, what the vote was about), justify voting for Ashcroft and Roberts? (Hint: Bush deserves is appointees.)


Really!
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yeah, he isn't liberal. At all. He's a hack.
Hack, hack, hack, hack...okay, I'm done. He's a hack and he's also not worth me getting a migraine over.
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