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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 06:44 AM
Original message
Expect more of this as the election draws closer
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 07:03 AM by ProSense
Green Party's man was disgusted with Democrats, GOP

Snip...

"Of course, Bush was worse," said David Cobb, the Green Party candidate for president in the last election. "... John Kerry was a corporatist and a militarist. George Bush was a proto-fascist and a genuine threat."

snip...

Now, he said, only the Green Party is calling for ending the war in Iraq, universal health care, a living wage for all, and true sustainable economic development.

more...

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/1...



Despite the title, it's all about the Democrats. That last sentence is fantasy land for sure.

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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. I certainly agree with the program he proposes and wished somebody
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 07:04 AM by Mass
could be elected on this basis. But let's be clear: it is not going to happen.

Obviously, some democrats (not all) are along these lines, but the time is far away where a serious candidate will be able to use this as his campaign slogan and declared philosophy, and the greens are largely responsible for that. Rather than positionning themselves as a serious government alternative, as they did in Europe, they are continuing to position themselves as the very leftist fringe. It is actually the first time I hear a Green in the State use the Green motto effectively. Who knows, may be one day, they will find their man. But for now, by call Bush a proto-facist and Kerry a militarist, Cobb loses all credibility. In the rest of the world, the Greens are a third way between capitalism and socialism, not a group of crazy people.

If you say that, the answer from the GOP would be tax increase. All you have to do is to watch the debate on healthcare in Massachusetts these last few months: the result is of course an improvement, but also a big, big disappointement. If we cant get a real universal healthcare in MA, where else?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Edited OP: The programs aren't fantasy land.
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 07:15 AM by ProSense
The fantasy is that only the Greens do. All Democrats support all or some of these programs.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Agreed, but they are not ready to call for them directly.
The words that Cobb uses seem radical only because virtually no Democrat is calling for them. They use euphemisms (like affordable healthcare) because they are afraid to be called socialists (and are right to be afraid).

I know I am a Green at heart and really wished that the Democrats would at least make an effort to move the center to the left and not themselves to the center (damn Clinton for that), but it is difficult to accomplish and particularly because of the triangulation politics that we have had these last few years.

Frankly, Cobb is an idiot and I dont even feel I want to discuss about him. Nader and him have been dragging the Green movement away from any reasonnable standard, unfortunately. That does not mean that part of what these people are saying is not true. The Democrats are sometimes afraid of using the strong words just the same way some are bothered being called liberal or progressive.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. What a lousy article
I do think you're right and we will see more garbage like this. I always thought that that was the root of the Green parties actions in Ohio. The fact that all their actions, at least to this point, have been resolved exactly as the Kerrys (John and Cam) thought they would. They likely fuel a huge part of the "Kerry caved in" nonsense and pull some people into their party.

As to your highlighted statement, what garbage. The Democratic party has had health care as a goal for probably the last 4 or 5 decades - the proposed plan being what they thought was the best achievable. Living wage - Kennedy alone has probably pushed minimum wage increases for more years than their party has existed. Their are at least 5 Democratic plans for getting out of Iraq. As to the last one "true sustainable economic development", I think no one is against this.

I really don't understand why the reporter may no attempt to counter anything and simply repeated their propaganda. I think to the public at large, they discredit themselves by saying that Kerry is militaristic (when people were more concerned that he really was a dove). Being here, I see how the Green fringe repeat that charge and the corporatist charge enough so that to some it gains credibility - but I think it sounds like nonsense to the outside world.

With the relevation that the Republicans and the funders of SBVT gave money to Nader and even helped with getting his signatures to get on the ballot, it really seems some of the people pushing the Greens may not be on the level.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. The irony is
that with Bush being labeled a failure, even called a criminal for his illegal activities, and the MSM dogging the Democrats, these other detractors have consistently tried to stir up anti-Democrat sentiment within the party and they have failed. The party is still strong. Democrats have their problems, internal ones too, but I have no respect for people who paint all Democrats GOP enablers, etc.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Cobb is doing his job: get people to join the Green Party.
He is not going to get people who would lean Bush, so he does not need to be overly negative to Bush.

The people he is aiming at are people who are pro-Democrat and not too satisfied by the way the party is going. Therefore, he needs to have them disgusted by the Democrats. He is doing that fairly well.

Perfectly disingenuous, but good politics. Cobb is playing the game Dean and Mellman play. Not so much about issues than about increasing your vote numbers. It is a game and in a two party system, unfortunately, it is a lethal one.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I understand politics.
I don't think Dean is disingenuous in stating what's wrong with the Republican party, and I have no respect for Mehlman. Then again, I'm a Democrat.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I have no respect for Cobb either
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 08:34 AM by Mass
but I recognize he is doing a good job with the cards he has (probably not a lot if he has to resort to that).

Dean is sometimes disingenuous too. It is just that we agree with his overall assessment on Bush and the GOP in general, so it bothers us a lot less.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Actually, Kennedy has a wonderful bill on healthcare that the Democrats
SHOULD endorse (but will not, of course): Medicare for all.

What many of the Democrats are proposing currently does not work. They know it but Hillary's fiasco 10 years ago prevents them to do better now.

The current system (and the Democrats proposition) are predicated on people working all their life in the same company. It does not work this way anymore. We need an universal insurance system that will follow people all their lives and not a system that is linked to our jobs. The Democrats should propose that. It would be a serious improvement to the existing system, but they wont, unfortunately. This is exactly the type of decision that allow Cobb to make his frivolous claims.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Buy in under 65
Getting from here to there politically is the hard part.

I wonder if the best approach is to start with something like allowing people over 50 to voluntarily buy in, and later lower the age.

Private insurance companies are less interested in those over 50 as they are more likely to have medical expenses, but they are still healthier than the typical Medicare program.

If voluntary it takes away the Republican charge of government take over of medicine--after all they claim their plans offer more choices. It also prevents objections from people who want to stay with their current plans. Currently even people over 65 have private insurance primary if they or their spouse get insurance thru an employer.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Here is the speech where he announced it
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 08:52 AM by Mass
He is proposing a phased in approach, starting by the 55-65 ones and the children and progressing.

The speech is a great speech for a progressive vision of America.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0112-37.htm

An essential part of our progressive vision is an America where no citizen of any age fears the cost of health care, and no employer refuses to create new jobs or cuts back on current jobs because of the high cost of providing health insurance.

The answer is Medicare, whose 40th birthday we will celebrate in July. I propose that as a 40th birthday gift to the American people, we expand Medicare over the next decade to cover every citizen - from birth to the end of life.

It's no secret that America is still dearly in love with Medicare. Administrative costs are low. Patients' satisfaction is high. Unlike with many private insurers, they can still choose their doctor and their hospital.

For those who prefer private insurance, we will offer comparable coverage under the same range of private insurance plans already available to Congress. I can think of nothing more cynical or hypocritical than a Member of Congress who gives a speech denouncing health care for all, then goes to his doctor for a visit paid for by the Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan.

I call this approach Medicare for All, because it will free all Americans from the fear of crippling medical expenses and enable them to seek the best possible care when illness strike

...

To make the transition from the current splintered system, I propose to phase in Medicare for All, age group by age group, starting with those closest to retirement, between 55 and 65. Aside from senior citizens themselves, they have the greatest health needs and the highest health costs, and need our help the most.

The first stage of the phase-in should also guarantee good health care to every young child. We made a start with the Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997. It does a major part of the job, and it's time t
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Nice plan
Has Kerry commented?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
12. Now this piece in Slate is vicious
and particularly gratuitious.

http://www.slate.com/id/2137731/nav/tap1

I am not sure what Pelosi, Reid, and Dean did to this writer, but this is really over the top.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Nasty words
Although I think that the Democrats could do better than Reid and Pelosi - I think the comments are completely over the top. I really don't think Newt was charismatic. The contract for America really loomed larger in retrospect than it did in 1994. The Republicans declareed that that was why they won, but was it? The Democrats could expand the 6 points that Tay posted and IF we get significant gains we could declare it was because of our vision statement.

I think that he is making too much of Dean's gaffes. Watching Kerry and seeing how they create "gaffes". I expect that Dean is really not that gaffe prone, but when watched carefully - he will say things that aren't prudent. They aren't doing that to their favorites - back when they didn't like H. Clinton they repeated a bad joke about Ghandi sterotyping Indians as running gas stations. If Dean were to say that today it would be repeated at least a million times a day, but if Bush told that joke it would be "cute" and not a story. Laura off color milking horses joke would have been a sign of lack of values if she were a Democrat.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Slate kind of sucks now that WaPo owns it.
And it really, really , really sucks anytime they publish anything from Mickey Kaus. No matter what the Dems do, it's never going to be good enough for people who are waiting for them to fail. (That is the written script. Dems are failures and can't unite. Nothing will disrupt the script.)

Dems never come together like Rethugs. It ain't gonna happen. We are not Rethugs and the entire structure of the party is different, as are the reasons why people become Dems. Not the same thing.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I never
post anything from Slate, even positive sounding stuff. The articles are snarky and, as Karyn stated, over the top at times. I don't trust them.

While this article is questionable, I am still waiting to see the articles (other than the articles about corruption) that offer party-wide criticisms of the Republicans and Mehlman.
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