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Zogby compares Kerry and Hagel's plans on Iraq and consider them

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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 07:54 PM
Original message
Zogby compares Kerry and Hagel's plans on Iraq and consider them
a thoughful initiative.

In the middle of an article by James Zogby, I found a comparison of Hagel's and Kerry's plan. First, I had not heard that Hagel had proposed something, which seems to correspond with Zogby's criticism that the media have not covered either plans, probably because they cant be reduced to a slogan.

I generally disagree with Zogby, but I found that interesting. Any comment?

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/23309

Somewhere in the middle of this muddle are positions developed independently by two Senators: Republican Chuck Hagel, a possible 2008 Presidential aspirant, and Democrat John Kerry, the Democrats 2004 Presidential candidate. Both offer the same criticism of the Administrations conduct of the war to date and argue that power alone without a sound political strategy will not ensure victory. Both then provide, in some detail, a plan to create a regional security arrangement to promote security and stability and enhance economic and political progress in Iraq and its environs. Building on the recently convened Arab League summit of Iraqi parties and Iraqs neighbors, both call for the permanent establishment of a regional security umbrella conference that, in addition to Iraqs parties and neighbors, also brings NATO, the World Bank, Russia, and relevant UN institutions to the table. Such a standing conference would be charged not only with assisting political reconciliation, but helping to build and coordinate government institutions and providing improved security assistance programs to Iraqs fledgling military.

While this approach could be considered a thoughtful alternative, it has largely been ignored. The media failed to provide any significant coverage to Senator Hagels Council on Foreign Relations speech. Senator Kerrys speech did receive one days coverage, but it focused more on his failure to articulate a position during his Presidential bid than on the substance of his proposal. Because the proposals offered by the two Senators cant be reduced to a slogan and because they have been ignored by the White House, the press has largely ignored them as well.
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fedupinBushcountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. I didn't know
Hagel had a plan either. I would like to compare it to Kerry's plan. The media sucks, they want black or white no in between.
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globalvillage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, one major difference
is that Sen Hagel hasn't backed up his plan with legislation, and Sen Kerry has.

I looked on Hagel's website and found a speech, but it wasn't what I would call a plan. Does anyone have it?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. PLEASE put this up on GD. This is a great reminder that the media is
the enemy and are doing the WH's bidding by keeping silent on this.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Here is the transcript of Sen. Hagel's remarks
Edited on Mon Nov-28-05 08:38 PM by TayTay
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9220/conversation_with_s...

I haven't read them yet. I will do so tomorrow when I get a chance to print them out. I didn't hear about this in the press either, though Sen. Biden's speech at the Council on Foreign Relations got some press and was telecast on C-Span.

Hmmmm, Sens. Hagel and Kerry, both original critics of the way this President rushed to war and both combat vets have come up with the most detailed and thoughtful plans. Hmmmmm. I'm not surprised.


(TayTay: supplying wonk to the Kerry group since Dec. 2004. We all have a purpose here, mine is to bring in the wonk.)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think Hagel's is well thought out
But there are no clear details as in Kerry's, which addresses specific numbers and a strategy for the withdrawal. Hagel loses me here, this sound like a long-term or permanent presence (from the link in TayTay's post):


Creating a formalized regional mechanism is vital for security in the Middle East. Iraqs neighbors will be the countries most impacted by the outcome there. Although a regional mechanism does not assure Iraqs success, the active involvement of the countries in the region allows a more promising future of stability for Iraq and lessens the chances for civil war and sectarian violence. It also lessens the possibilities that further instability and violence in Iraq will spread like a raging inferno throughout the region.

Establishing a regional and international umbrella for Iraq would mean that the United States take a shared role in a regional security conference in Iraq. This does not mean that America would withdraw abruptly from Iraq. The United States should continue to leverage its influence, urging all Iraqi parties to use the political process to address the deep fractures of their society. We must also remain focused on the mission of standing up capable Iraqi Security Forces.

The international community must now recognize the changed circumstances of a constitutionally-based Iraqi government and join Iraqs neighbors by investing in Iraqs future success.


Am I misreading this?
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globalvillage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. They are not at all similar
Sen Kerry's proposal is a plan to end the war including conditions based withdrawl, stability and accountability.
Sen Hagel's statement is not really a plan, although he makes some good points re mid east cooperation. It's not a withdrawl plan by any stretch. That said, it's better than anything any other Republican has attempted.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. If you consider that Kerry is the ONLY Democrat who has a comprehensive
plan to leave Iraq (Murtha has a plan, but it is far from being that comprehensive, and the other ones have ideas, not plans), what Hagel is proposing is not that bad. Dont forget he wants to run in 08, so he has to keep somewhat in line.

I think many are afraid to offer complex plans, because they will have to stick behind them (in that, I would say kudos to Kerry, Murtha, and Kucinich - Whether you agree with their plans or not, they had the courage to spell out their propositions and not to stay behind generalities).
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I think it means that other entities than the US have to take a leading
role over then (NATO, UN, Arab League) so that the US do not appear as the leading power (and therefore the occupying power).
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globalvillage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. That part of his statement impressed me.
He seems to have put a lot of thought into cooperation with neighboring countries, proposing a conference, etc. Which would lead us in the right direction.
Still, not a plan to get us out anytime soon.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I think what Zogby was pointing out is that Hagel and Kerry are the only
who are trying to get a real international cooperation (rather than saying to others what they have to do).

It does not surprise me as Hagel is very much an internationalist and close to GHW Bush on these issues.
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globalvillage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. That was the one parallel I saw, too.
A very important one. Aside from that, though, their 'plans' are totally dissimilar.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Hagel does not really have a plan, except for that.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. That's why I said
permanent presence. If that's the case the plans are not similar. Secondly, even if the make up of those forces the US appears to have a diminished role, the Iraqis don't want any occupying forces.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. These things are in Kerry's plan as well. I am not sure where you
Edited on Mon Nov-28-05 09:38 PM by Mass
are going here.

I have not read fully Hagel's speech, but I know both are calling for an increased international cooperation that would not necessarily be dominated by the US.

(The only thing is that Kerry gives a target date and Hagel does not. It is important, I agree, but except that, this seems a lot more similar than anything Biden or others have said).
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yes
The increased cooperation is there, but in different forms. My primary concern is Hagel mentions a permanent or long-term military presence.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I read it and I agree
Edited on Mon Nov-28-05 09:59 PM by Mass
It is still a lot better than all I have seen proposed by Democrats and some of the things that Democrats are proposing. I think he is thinking at something like Bosnia.

He is offering a solution that could have worked one year ago.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
12. I didn't realize Hagel had a plan either
It is nice that Zogby singled out Kerry's and Hagel's in the middle as thoughtful. I'll have to read the Hagel one from Tay Tay's link.
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frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
18. Chuck Hagel is one of my state's senators
(Bob Kerrey is the Democratic one) and I think everyone knows Hagel is positioning himself as a candidate in the next presidential election. There's even talk he'll drop the Republican party and run on a third party ticket.

As all of you have pointed out, Hagel's so-called "exit plan" isn't a plan at all, but try telling that to most Nebraskans. :eyes:





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