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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:55 PM
Original message
Need help "Kerry Was Right..."
Post by Dr. Ron on Light Up The Darkness blog. The "Daou Report" has it linked in so it would be helpful to have some supportive comments.

Kerry Was Right to Stay Away
8 January 2005


Kerry is taking a lot of heat in the blogosphere for not being in Washington during the challenge of the 2004 election. His absence not the way to judge Kerry's actions on election reform. He has already had a team of lawyers in to investigate, and we will hear more from him in the future. There simply was not enough evidence to prove election fraud sufficient to overturn the election results.

There are many issues to be pursued. Strategically this is best done as something totally separate from the type of challenge conducted in Congress.

Election reform must be pushed as an issue which Democrats, independents, and fair minded Republican can all support, without remaining a Kerry vs. Bush issue. The more election reform can be viewed as a question of who won the 2004 election, the more likely the media can portray it as a Quixotic attempt to overturn the election, and ignore the real issues. Those who voted for Bush are much more likely to support election reform if they do not see this as a Kerry vs. Bush issue.

With the 2004 election behind us, Kerry can return in the future and argue for issues such as reasonable waiting time, maintaining a paper trail, and prohibiting election officials from being actively involved in working for one candidate. For now, I'm happy to see him in Iraq, hoping he can return to take on Bush on Iraq as he took on Nixon over Vietnam and Reagan over the Iran Contra scandal.

While I sympathized with those who protested the election and wished them well, this was a side show which may have done more harm than good, and Kerry was very wise to stay away. For example, from Friday's First Read:

Only time and polling will tell, but we wonder if something happened yesterday beyond Democrats' clear discomfort with the dispute of the results, and with the GOP's arguable overzealousness in rejecting the claims -- that electoral reform moved a notch away from being an issue of concern to the general public, and one step closer to becoming viewed as a partisan Democrat issue touted by liberals and minorities.

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/?view=plink&id=1...
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well Some May Not Like It But
That post just tells the facts and I have to say it may be hard for some accept but it is true. I was also one of those glad Kerry was not involved in that mess and felt he was doing what he should. And I must say I also felt sorry for Boxer. I felt that there were some democrats that should have kept their mouth shut rather than getting up and making objections and litteraly giving the woman a slap to the face. The could have done as others did that didn't agree and remained seated and kept their mouth shut. I don't think what they did to a fellow democrat helped the matter either. Actually I feel it added fuel to the fire because now you have them saying "well this democrat and that democrat agreed with us see we are right here not them." So yes I was very glad John wasn't in the middle of that mess.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. you don't think Boxer should have stood up?
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 04:58 PM by Faye
:shrug: please tell me that's not what i'm seeing.
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. No Faye That's Not What I Mean
Read post #5 Maybe I explained what I meant better in it. Glad your back.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. No, that's not what you're seeing
I was saying Kerry was best off not being there.

I have my doubts whether Boxer's actions helped, but it was necessary to do. If Kerry was there, the right wing media could have made it look like a circus which could have done us more harm than good. With Kerry not there, this is an event which ultimately means little, but there is some small satisfaction that Bush's reelection is officially disputed.

This still leaves Kerry and others free for a more meaningful campaign to fight for election reform, independent from anything which could be portrayed as a tin foil hat attempt to change the election results.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. I think it was completely necessary too,
if only to avoid a repeat of that horror show from 2000, memorialized in F9/11. Someone had to back up the CBC.

I think it was a necessity that Kerry not be there, for many reasons. And I still think there was strategy playing out among the dems, though I'm not in on precisely what it was. The absence of Barney Frank and Mike Capuano during the vote, for example; both are from safer than safe dem districts in Mass., and neither one is afraid to stand up and be counted. Very odd.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Difficult Vote
I doubt it was a coincidence that Kerry was gone at this time.

It is possible that people like those you mentioned were absent as it was very difficult to decide how to vote on this. If looked at narrowly, there wasn't enough hard evidence to support changing the election result, and most Democrats ultimately voted against the objections raised. However, we also know things were rotten, making it hard to vote against the objections. As the vote would not change anything, they might have preferred to just be absent.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. Welcome back Faye!
I saw your posts in other forums. Sounds like the Jan 6th event were well run and that you did get some satisfaction with getting the voting rights issues heard.

I, like so many other people here, deeply support the effort to reform the election process. I favor national standards, a verifiable paper trail and opening the electronic software that tabulates the count to scrutiny. I disagreed that the Ohio results would be overturned. (Fairly narrow stuff, when you think about it, but is caused such a stir on the other forums.)

What happened in some of the city precincts in Ohio is nothing short of racist. This is disgusting and UnAmerican and must be stopped. No ifs, ands, or buts. It is unacceptable and we must not forget this or fail to put through measures to ensure that it never happens again. Ever. It is wrong. That is my feeling.

And, if I may, thanks for going. You do us all proud by standing up. Particularly for those of us who could not attend, but followed it closely.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Angry Democrat.. I posted this in a couple of other threads but it might
help for people here to see it too. I heard Barbara Boxer interviewed on AAR last night. She said that they only needed one senator and that it was understood before hand that no one else needed to vote yea to the challenge. The speeches were very important in their own right. She also said that it was just the beginning and that we should expect great things from Harry Reid. She said 'you trusted me on this (contest of Ohio electors), please trust me on this too (Reid).' I felt very encouraged hearing Barbara Boxer saying this. She has the ultimate integrity.

Kerry's presence would have been so counterproductive, I can't believe most people carping and complaining don't see that. It would have been all about him instead of about shedding light on election 'irregularities' (fraud) and the broken system that allows it.
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Thanks Bunny
I read a statement made by Senator Boxer which stated basically the same thing. They only needed one vote, and we should not be too concerned about the vote count.
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Thanks...I must say that makes me feel a little better
I have gotten to where I don't even listen to AAR anymore because of their Kerry bashing. Even Randi has bashed him so I just quit listening. Because I am sick and tired of people bashing this man. It is ridiculous. So if it is said on AAR I must say I won't here it. I use to listen all the time but not anymore. Heard wat to much Kerry bashing which is way not my style.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Oh I know, I was so upset when Randi started bashing Kerry last week.
I usually adore her. Even Thom Hartmann does not cut him any slack. And Malloy is still eviscerating Gore as well as Kerry now. I still listen, or keep the radio on with the sound down just because I don't want them to lose the ratings. We still need them on the air badly. Franken interestingly enough, while he says he thinks * won, has praised Kerry and the other day read his most recent letter and complimented him on his statesmen like behavior. Go figure.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. If the debates had not occurred, the repukes would have pushed
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 04:35 PM by merh
election reform off the radar and under the rug. We kept it alive. More importantly, we proved our strength, despite the media blackout and the effort of the right and the media to label us as conspiracy theorists, we made congress pay attention to us. Not only did a senator stand up with a representative, but others voiced their concerns regarding the legitimacy of elections.

Nothing to be afraid of or ashamed of, we have kept the issue alive. Whoever wrote this is living in another realm of reality and has been rove'd (political equivalent of being punk'd).
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. That's not the issue
The question is as to whether Kerry is deserving of the attacks for not being there on Thursday.

If Kerry was there, it would be a lose-lose situation.

If he voted for the dispute, he'd be labeled a poor loser, and this would distract from the real battle for election reform If he voted no, this would have been taken out of context to claim there is no need for election reform.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. lol
Rove'd. Do you find the humor in that? I do. :)
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. I suggest you read the posts that were posted before yours.
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 07:31 PM by merh
If you notice your post was # 8 and my second post was #3. Therefore, my post 3 was made before your response in 2. I said exactly what your post says, so why bother trying to make your post to me. "That's not the issue" in quotes is written as if I am an idiot.

Apparently your writing style leaves something to be desired since a good many of the posts here cannot determine exactly what you are trying to say.

Odd, you jump on my post and failed to realize that I supported your writing and tried to clarify it. Next time read all posts before reacting.

:shrug:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. The fight is ahead
The contest doesn't matter to me one way or the other. It will have zero affect on election reform. The fight is ahead and will be won by people who address the actual proven problems by working with members of both parties. I sincerely hope Republicans won't be able to use the contest against that reform in the future. I do know John Kerry will lead, his campaign finance reform and election holiday legislation is proof of that.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Kerry was correct when he chose not to be there. The issue
of election reform stayed the issue. He was not made the issue and he was not made to look like a sore loser.
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5.  The Point I Was Making
While we both agree about Kerry done the right thing about staying out I think Kerry had every intention on keeping on election reform alive and he wasn't going to let it be swept under the rug. But I am in no way saying what Boxer and others did was wrong all I'm saying is I felt sorry for the lady whem others in her own party stood up and objected in what she was doing and all that. I feel like those people added fuel to the fire because now you have repukes running around saying that even democrats agreed with them and they were not wrong instead it was democrats. When these people should have kept their mouth shut if they didn't have something positive to say. And repukes with try to throw this garbabe around for a while now and try to make it harder on dems in election reform issues. It won't stop nothing it's only saying the dems that were negative just made it harder than it had to be.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Not sure what you're saying
If you're saying that sometimes the "centrist" Democrats need to shut up too, I would agree with that. When a Democrat takes a strong stand, like Boxer did, then it should be "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". The problems with the election were brought to the country's attention. We should be using the Washington election contest to further the point, even more because it's Republicans who are contesting. But Kerry was right to stay out of it so it didn't become about him and that is Dr. Ron's point.
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Are You Saying That The Democrats That Stood Up
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 05:27 PM by angrydemocrat
And took republicans side on the issue was right? Because I don't. I feel that is they disagreed with what Boxer was doing the least they could have done was kept their seat and zipped their lips. Hell don't stand up and take sides with the party we are trying to make listen. That is what I said.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. We agree then
I said the "centrists" should learn they need to shut up sometimes too. Wasn't sure that's what you were saying. Although I didn't hear any Democrats support Republicans on the Senate floor.
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I remember
Mark Dayton standing up and saying what Boxer was doing was the wrong way to do things. He made that loud and clear because I threw something at my TV LOL. I know that doesn't do any good but I was mad. I was screaming WTF is this bash Boxer day now.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I agree with neither those who bashed Kerry or Boxer
There were pluses and minuses to bringing up this issue in this way. Kerry was smart to be absent. However, even if they might not have agreed with bringing this up in this manner, I think any Democrats present should have either backed her or stayed quiet.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I agree
I thought that Kerry did a good thing putting out the letter the night before the Congressional vote. He didn't have to do that. If he wanted to ignore the issue, he wouldn't have drawn attention to it with that letter. The letter says that he wants people to contact the Rethug House and Senate leadership and begin to agitate for progressive change in how we vote. I thought it was crystal clear that he was sending the 'I damn right and well care' message out. (DU forum reactions aside, of course.)

This stuff is out there, sent to millions of people and is in writing. He is on record. That means that he can be 'pushed' on it. (As we are supposed to do with elected representatives, we push them to consider issues and to fight harder for things we believe in.) I didn't see the downside of this and I thought it was a good move.

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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. I Felt The Same About The Letter
The only thing I didn't like and felt was no help to democrats was the other democrats that protested what Boxer was doing and siding with the repukes. As I said in my earlier post these people should have kept their ass seated and their mouth zipped if they didn't agree with what she was doing. But hell democrats have a hard enough fight ahead without people of their own party siding with the other side. There was no call in what Dayton did. That was pure bullshit.
Because as I said all the hell he did by doing that was give the repukes more ammo. Now you have repukes that will be saying see we were right and they were wrong even people in their own party agreed with us. That kind of shit has to stop.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. What Sen. Dayton did
pissed me off, too. If the Party was going to go ahead and use the Ohio vote as a forum for election reform, it would have been nice to present a united front. But, as usual, we've got at least one Democrat sticking a knife in our back.

Herding cats, I guess.
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