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Okay, moving on. Let's talk about Iraq

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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:26 PM
Original message
Okay, moving on. Let's talk about Iraq
I'm done crying in my beer. I woke up this morning and saw a story on a 21 year old kid from Cape Cod, Mass who was killed in Iraq last week. He leaves behind a family, including a 19 year old pregnant wife. Ah, we got work to do. Stories about 'our kids' dying in Iraq for some vague and unattainable goal are becoming more and more frequent. This is the real tragedy of our times.

I wanted to point out 3 articles in the paper today and ask for some opinions. First up, evil friggin Bush bastid Stephen Hadley, Chief minion in charge of shoving the escalation of troops down America's throat. He said this in the WaPo this morning:

But the president's review also concluded that the strategy with the best chance of success must have a plan for securing Baghdad. Without such a plan, the Iraqi government and its security institutions could fracture under the pressure of widespread sectarian violence, ethnic cleansing and mass killings. Chaos would then spread throughout the country -- and throughout the region. The al-Qaeda movement would be strengthened by the flight of Sunnis from Baghdad and an accelerated cycle of sectarian bloodletting. Iran would be emboldened and could be expected to provide more lethal aid for extremist groups. The Kurdish north would be isolated, inviting separation and regional interference. Terrorists could gain pockets of sanctuary throughout Iraq from which to threaten our allies in the region and our security here at home.

The new plan for Baghdad specifically corrects the problems that plagued previous efforts. First, it is an Iraqi-initiated plan for taking control of their capital. Second, there will be adequate forces (Iraqi and American) to hold neighborhoods cleared of terrorists and extremists. Third, there is a new operational concept -- one devised not just to pursue terrorists and extremists but to secure the population. Fourth, new rules of engagement will ensure that Iraqi and U.S. forces can pursue lawbreakers regardless of their community or sect. Fifth, security operations will be followed by economic assistance and reconstruction aid -- including billions of dollars in Iraqi funds -- offering jobs and the prospect of better lives.

As Gen. David Petraeus, the new commander of our forces in Iraq, explained in hearings before Congress last week, reinforcing U.S. troops is necessary for this new plan to succeed. Any plan that limits our ability to reinforce our troops in the field is a plan for failure -- and could hand Baghdad to terrorists and extremists before legitimate Iraqi forces are ready to take over the fight. That is an outcome the president simply could not accept.

The Baker-Hamilton report supports this conclusion. It said: "We could, however, support a short-term redeployment or surge of American combat forces to stabilize Baghdad . . . if the U.S. commander in Iraq determines that such steps would be effective." Our military commanders, and the president, have determined just that.

More at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/28/AR2007012800922.html


Says him. Gee, anybody read this devastating article in the NYTimes today? This is from a reporter who has been, over the course of the last 4 years, in and out of Iraq. She notes the incredible and horrifying changes that are going on in that country. This is what she says about the surge:

For those eager to write off Iraq as lost, one fact bears remembering. A great many Shiites and Kurds, who together make up 80 percent of the population, will tell you that in spite of all the mistakes the Americans have made here, the single act of removing Saddam Hussein was worth it. And the new American plan, despite all the obstacles, may have a chance to work. With an Iraqi colleague, I have been studying a neighborhood in northern Baghdad that has become a dumping ground for bodies. There, after American troops conducted sweeps, the number of corpses dropped by a third in September. The new plan is built around that kind of tactic. But the odds are stacked against the corps of bright young officers charged with making the plan work, particularly because their Iraqi partner — the government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki — seems to be on an entirely different page. When American officials were debating whether to send more troops in December, I went to see an Iraqi government official. The prospect of more troops infuriated him. More Americans would simply prolong the war, he said.

“If you don’t allow the minority to lose, you will carry on forever,” he said.

The remarks struck me as a powerful insight into the Shiites’ thinking. Abused under Mr. Hussein, they still act like an oppressed class. That means Iraqis are looking into a future of war, at least in the near term. As one young Shiite in Sadr City said to me: “This just has to burn itself out.”

Hazim al-Aaraji, a disciple of the renegade Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr, understands this. A cleric himself, he is looking for foot soldiers for the war. On a warm October afternoon, as he bustled around his mosque in western Baghdad, he said the ideal disciples would have “an empty mind,” and a weapon. Surprised by the word choice, an Iraqi friend I was with stopped him, to clarify his intent. Once again, he used the word “empty.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/weekinreview/28tave.html?_r=1&ref=weekinreview&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin



And lastly, and most sadly, read this. "Who the hell is shooting at us?" OMG, this is so awful, I don't even know what to say, except Hadley, burn in hell you bastid.

In a New Joint U.S.-Iraqi Patrol, the Americans Go First

By DAMIEN CAVE and JAMES GLANZ
Published: January 25, 2007

BAGHDAD, Jan. 24 — In the battle for Baghdad, Haifa Street has changed hands so often that it has taken on the feel of a no man’s land, the deadly space between opposing trenches. On Wednesday, as American and Iraqi troops poured in, the street showed why it is such a sensitive gauge of an urban conflict marked by front lines that melt into confusion, enemies with no clear identity and allies who disappear or do not show up at all.

In a miniature version of the troop increase that the United States hopes will secure the city, American soldiers and armored vehicles raced onto Haifa Street before dawn to dislodge Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias who have been battling for a stretch of ragged slums and mostly abandoned high rises. But as the sun rose, many of the Iraqi Army units who were supposed to do the actual searches of the buildings did not arrive on time, forcing the Americans to start the job on their own.

When the Iraqi units finally did show up, it was with the air of a class outing, cheering and laughing as the Americans blew locks off doors with shotguns. As the morning wore on and the troops came under fire from all directions, another apparent flaw in this strategy became clear as empty apartments became lairs for gunmen who flitted from window to window and killed at least one American soldier, with a shot to the head.

Whether the gunfire was coming from Sunni or Shiite insurgents or militia fighters or some of the Iraqi soldiers who had disappeared into the Gotham-like cityscape, no one could say.

“Who the hell is shooting at us?” shouted Sgt. First Class Marc Biletski, whose platoon was jammed into a small room off an alley that was being swept by a sniper’s bullets. “Who’s shooting at us? Do we know who they are?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/25/world/middleeast/25haifa.html


There is a part 2 to that last article in today's NYTimes. I don't have the heart to post it right now. I hope to God Hillary and the other candidates do though. Maybe they will feel some friggin motivation about ending this war.

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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Tay tay, I am afraid you are expecting people caught up in ambition and power to
Edited on Mon Jan-29-07 12:32 PM by wisteria
really have a heart. For Hillary polls are all that will matter. The others, I think Obama is all ego right now. Lives are on the line, but politics and power reign.
I am feeling pessimistic today. This is going to be a long haul. Too may will talk the talk, but not walk the walk, as they say.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Did you see that VoteVets ad?
Ah, no, not this time. People are getting motivated. Seriously, they are. Not this time.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Awesome and powerful! Although, people were motivated in the sixties too.
Edited on Mon Jan-29-07 12:45 PM by wisteria
This is an interesting way to approach the issue and get people's attention. Good for VoteVets and JK's involvement with them. I contributed to them during the elections because I liked their political commercials.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Not that it makes a difference in who she is;
my opinion of her is set in cement. She is no leader.

But even the Queen of Triangulation is being forced to move on this. Tay's right: the people have spoken.

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2007/01/29/iraq/index.html

Clinton sets withdrawal deadline; Lieberman issues a warning

Hillary Clinton, who said just 12 days ago that she was "not going to support a specific deadline" for the withdrawal of U.S. troops for Iraq, declared Sunday that George W. Bush has the responsibility to "extricate" the U.S. from Iraq by the time he leaves office in January 2009.

Speaking at a town-hall-style campaign event in Iowa, Clinton said that it would be the "height of irresponsibility" for Bush to leave behind the mess he has created with "an ill-conceived plan and an incompetently executed strategy."

Clinton's comments come as the Senate prepares to weigh competing resolutions on the president's plan to send more troops to Iraq. Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman Joe Biden predicted over the weekend that fewer than 20 senators will be comfortable "standing up and saying the president is heading in the right direction" in Iraq." He may well be right, but the question isn't how many senators are willing to say that Bush is right; it's how many are willing to vote in favor of a resolution saying he's wrong.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell says he's skeptical that either the Biden-Levin-Hagel resolution or a slightly more gently worded measure sponsored by Virginia Republican John Warner will find the 60 votes it needs to get through a cloture vote. Defense Secretary Robert Gates is doing his part to get Republican senators back in line; on Friday, he declared that passage of an anti-escalation resolution would "certainly embolden the enemy and our adversaries." That sort of rhetoric seems to speak to Joe Lieberman, who echoed it along the way to telling Fox's Chris Wallace Sunday that he's open to voting for a Republican for president in 2008 "because we have so much on the line both in terms of the Islamist terrorists." ...
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It takes polls to get her to do the right thing. Although she has wiggle room here.
Edited on Mon Jan-29-07 01:01 PM by wisteria
She could be saying this and even voting for it because she figures there won't be enough votes to pass it or the Warner version will pass, the president will ignore it and she has something else to campaign on.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Well, I posed a
question. "Queen of Triangulation" sounds about right!
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Good question too! n/t
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. The sound of it was way wrong
More like a scolding teacher or nun, you know the few teachers whose classes you prayed not to be assigned to, saying that before you leave you have to put everything back in its place. Senator Kerry has been very casreful each time to explain why a deadline and why the length of time is not arbitrary.

Hillary's is not based on needs in Iraq (American political and electoral calendar is not relevant). It is also not recommending what to do - it's like, "It's Georgie's mess and I shouldn't have to clean it up." This is the strong , that Kerry wsn't? For the sake of the soldiers, the US, the Iraqis and the world, Kerry was very willing to take on cleaning up "Georgie's mess." She might as well call the President "inappropriate.

PS Using "Senator" for one person and not the other was absolutely intentional.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kerry said something wise in the edited clip on the Davos World
Summit website: he said "both sides think they can win". If they think they can win, they're not going to stop fighting. And it's about time the WH faces this fact -- neither side is going to stop fighting. Only diplomacy would be able to change their minds, however long the odds are that even THAT works in the short term. More troops and new/old military strategies most certainly will not change that fact, and will simply get more of "our kids" killed.
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