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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:34 PM
Original message
Why do people intentional start flame wars by slamming an entire
group of Dem. supporters? I don't get the logic. It just causes more divisions by insulting people and distracting from the real problem, BushCo.

I'm frustrated. This one was started by a Kerry supporter, I guess, although it seems like a good disrupter tactic to cause problems.
Dean and Clark supporters have done it too but, geez, can't we get past this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. i agree, it makes me sick
i hated seeing it. we should alert on it.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I will and you do it too. There is absolutely no point to it.
The 2004 primaries and election is over. Lets move forward.
:mad:

So f@#king stupid!
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. yes, i alerted on it
some people really need to get out or at least away from DU if they can't handle it to the point where they need to start those type of disruptive divisive threads.

seriously, if they wanted to inform or clear up something then make a post which just points out the facts without personal attacks on others. that type of post did anything but get people to see what the facts are.

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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Mods locked it thankfully.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Have to wonder
if it was actually started by a dem at all. I don't know this poster, but I have to wonder who benefits the most from fights among dems?

Just saying...
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I agree. Seems like a disrupter technique.
There is no profile so it is hard to check.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. Like those driveby "I'm still pissed at Kerry" threads
that aren't even tied to anything he's done at the moment. It's like, "Oh, and by the way, I still feel abandoned."

Okey dokey. Same time tomorrow?

There is a Kerry supporter out there doing it to Dean, and for the life of me I can't figure out how to approach him to tell him to knock it off. It bugs me that it's a KERRY supporter smearing Dean. Not just posting the occasional negative stuff, but actively working to smear him ala Counterpunch. In fact, this person uses Counterpunch. And you know how much I hate that. Will I have to point out again that if the Dean stuff from there is true, then so is the Kerry stuff?

Good lord, we have some immature people out there, don't we.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. alert on them
just as we would on others. they do nothing other than cause divisiveness among democrats.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. They don't help
But it is frustrating to see so many come right out and call this flamebait when they can't see that alot of the Dean and Clark threads are much much worse. That's what is most annoying. This person at least addresses actual issues, yet flat out Kerry bashing threads are legitimate debate. :crazy:
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. i think it's because
there are more Dean and Clark supporters and it's been done so much that it's just accepted .

but it's not often a Kerry supporter or a supporter of some other person not that popular on DU does it. so it kind of stands out. i do wish the person had just posted the facts though rather than in the form of calling out some others. of course it might not have got many responses then.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's the denial
That's what gets me. I understand the mods, because enough of these kinds of posts are made that it's hard to draw the lines. The people who get to me are the ones who called this post flame bait and then just go into complete denial and rant and rave if you call their posts flame bait. Just flat out deny that Dean supporters would ever post such a thing or are antagonistic in any way. What is it that allows people to be that blind?
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. the OP on that other thread has really had it in for Dean
and I think that thread is flamebait -

that said - I agree with you - I've seen far, far worse threads that were attacks on Kerry that the mods allowed to go on endlessly. I think DU has developed something of a double standard - the attitude of the worst of the Dean people (and some Clark) has had an intimidating effect on discussion here on DU.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. The Dean and Clark people weird me out frankly
They've fought like dogs before but after the Kerry win in Iowa, I Remember they tried to form alliances and shit you know to "stop Kerry", but it was so weird and shit. Edwards supporters to me were some of the classiest people all around, I sometimes post in the Edwards forum because I am on really good terms with some of them like AP, Locke, and some of the others.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yep...
very much so. it is like a cult, but then again, in this day and age one needs a piece of ground to stand on... maybe we each have to survive in our own unique way? dunno...what is everyone doing atm?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. wouldn't call it a cult per say but
it sure is confusing.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. i don't know...
frankly, i am trying to just focus on keeping my feet on the ground...it is very easy to just be swept into insanity by this entire situation that we are all in, all=world, and US.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. ahh yeah
I just dont see the appeal, like I understand Clark is an admirable guy but I like to see a little experience so I know hes not just rhetoric.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. You know... I just changed my mind about Dean...
No joke... The crazy people around dean who want to slam everyone who might disagree slightly... i can't support someone who supports that kind of hate. It is just yet another form of extremism. If Dean becomes DNC chair, then I am out. I think tolerance is the most important foundation of the left wing... once that is gone, for me, that takes down every other structure. Kos is a bloodbath... just put a toe in and they will strip you of your skin and mind.


What is really said is that there is no one to lead us... no one who is willing to do it and no one who is willing who i would follow. What is there left to do? I think this is going to be a very long long lifetime, should we actually survive it.

I think I am having a meltdown with the iraq thing and and everything else... it is too much and when the people on your side start attacking you to... it makes me tired and sad.

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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. These people are not Dean. They are not even most of his supporters.
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 10:01 PM by Pirate Smile
Don't change your mind now. Take a break.

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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Have faith, it will get better
Dean is actually a good guy. Some of his followers are tough to take, but Dean is alright. The really interesting time will come when Dean is Chair and has to make the hard decisions that will, inevitably, piss off his supporters. (This will happen. It might be deciding not to move the NH primary until '12, it might be a money decision or something.) Then we get to see what the Deaniacs really are. Will they scream sellout or listen and accept the explanation. It will be interesting.

Some of the Kossacs are repulsive. But that blog was at least honest about saying they were a Dean site last year during Primary Wars. I think it will get a little better after the Chairman's race. BTW, based on nothing more than intuition, I think Kerry has been sending out 'We can deal' messages to Dean. (Well, duh, that's politics.) I wonder how the fanatical Deaniacs will react to that.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. A good guy would...
Ask that they either treat people with respect or not represent him. Since the owner of the place worked for dean or still does, not sure, but that makes it seem, to me, as though he condones it. The whole place is about a contest to see who can get their diary up at the top or who can score the highest rating... at the price of everyone who is not in the "clique." It reminds me of high school and just as mean, if not worse. I am really upset about this... mostly because I become so angry when I go there and I say things back to people, then I regret it. I hate what I become when I am there... and so at the moment, I am not really happy about the whole thing. I don't know... I think if Dean really was a good guy, then he should make a statement that he does not condone intolorence and such attacks on people. Per the usual, should be napping, but now too upset. Is there a chat feature here?
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Why don't you bring your complaints to Dean?
I hate to say that he is a busy man, but he is. However, I'm sure if you try to call and/or e-mail his office, you might get some response. Here's the e-mail form, address, and telephone number of his office.
http://www.democracyforamerica.com/contactus.php
Dean has so many followers that it is difficult to manage them, he is father with over 60,000 kids living in 50 states. As a Deaniac, I apologize most humbly for the mistakes of my brothers and sisters, but intolerance is not what the doctor ordered.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Can't
My editor does not want me to do so and I have to respect his wishes. I have, for other reasons, tried to contact him via move on... which group actually represents dean? Which groups do not actually?
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. Democracy For America represents Dean.
www.democracyforamerica.com
Warning above website's blog sometimes includes uncensored ravings of haters, but the official news clippings and Dean's columns represent the real Dean movement.
Your editor is a fascist for not allowing you freedom of speech, I'm sorry for that.
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Kerry and Dean are allies against Bush.
This Deaniac understands that. This is not about one man (Kerry or Dean) winning, it's about opposing Bush. Dean gave a good fight in the primaries, but he vowed that he would support whoever got the nomination and that he did.
I am a fanatical Deaniac, which means I actually listen to Dean. I read his speeches and listen to his interviews. The man's support of Kerry does not surprise me. It only surprises those lefty freeper "Deaniacs" who don't listen to the doctor and just project their anti-Kerry, anti-Dem rants on him.
This Deaniac loves Kerry because he is a real Democrat. Dean called him an "internationalist," a man with a gift for diplomacy.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. No, I have no problem...
With any of that whole WSJ business. I thought that was nuts and really bad reporting on the side of WSJ.

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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Why will you be out if Dean wins?
Dean is not the problem, he's part of the solution. "tolerance is the most important foundation of the left wing," agreed, but why would you go against a great, tolerant man like Dean? Don't punish the man because some of his freaked out followers do not listen to what the man's been putting down since Kerry's nomination. Dean was one of Kerry's strongest supporters and a powerful campaigner for the Kerry cause. Dean is a Democrat through and through, he helped Democrats get elected across the country through Democracy For America. Don't spite the man for the fleas on his back.
I, Elshiva, vow to work with whoever gets the DNC chair. I will not abandon my party when it needs me the most.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. To be fair
Larisa got slammed by the more irrational followers of Dean. So she has a right to be wary.

That said, we do need to pull together. Minority parties can't take anything for granted. And these Rethugs are such bastards. They will stop at nothing to get what they want. Larisa knows this better than me. It's just sad that we so often eat our own.

I like Dean. I was completely thrilled when he used Wellstone's line, "I represent the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" two years ago. Wonderful stuff. But I was around as a Dem before that. He was not the political revelation to me that he was to others.

I am a Democrat. Have been since I was old enough to think about politics. I hate the circular firing squads though. It's just awful to so thoroughly go after your own.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I don't know...
If there are rational people there, then why do they only email? Can't they actually post what they email me? My guess is they would lose their place. I got a lot of kind email, but why not public statements? And boy, they do slam...not even the most recent... remember that whole John Kerry Stop post? Wow... that was like I took crack, woke up at Falwell's house and was then beaten by his his followers. The latest thing was just it... flah. I may be wary, but I this man worked for him. That says a great deal to me.

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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Because he needs
He needs to decide who it is that represents him and the fleas on his back are causing a great deal of hate... I have never seen such attacks, not just on people who post, but against any Dem who is not Dean. He needs to say that he does not support this type of intolorence and he has yet to say it. I have gotten email from people saying they are afraid "to post there." Afraid to post? The fleas are killing the message and making deep wounds not just to Dems, but to any possible conversation of reform. This is someone he had work for him...that bothers me greatly. It is not like some fan site started by someone he does not know. I like Trippi also and since Trippi walked away, I am thinking it must be for the same reason.

I don't know what to say... I just want Kerry or Gore or both...or Boxer... I don't want to leave my party...I want my party to not become a hate machine in order to battle the other side. :(
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. i think you need to get away from some of the political forums
things do get nasty. i ignore a lot of it myself now.

what i recommend is that if Dean becomes the DNC Chair just give him a chance and judge him for yourself. Dean doesn't control what those who claim to support him do on the internet on various sites.


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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I know... but this guy is close to him...
No? This guy who runs the site?
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. i don't go to his site
i'm saying if Dean becomes DNC Chair you will have something to judge directly for yourself and just give him a chance then.

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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Okay...
But is he still close with this guy? Just asking. I am really not thrilled about the massive crap I have been slammed into :(
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. they are not personal friends or anything like that
i don't even think Dean is very much involved in day to day happenings of the online world. he is more focused on the bigger picture and more mainstream politics which is actually outside of the internet.

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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Yeah, Kos is close to him
He was paid by the Dean campaign to do some work. Yahoo should still have this news up, it's only a couple of weeks old. Search using Kos as a keyword.

Hmm, I do think Howard is going to have to deal with his more rabid followers. If he gets Chair, he is going to have to make some major reconciliation moves. It happens over here at DU too. There was a post a couple of weeks ago that was started by Chris Heinz, JK's stepson. He was subjected to awful abuse. This has to stop. Do you think this is part of the effort by the Rethugs to screw up Dem boards or just rude Dems unsure on the concept of how to politely listen to others?

We heard about the awful things that some of the DKos posters did to you. There is no excuse for that at all, ever. People like that are detrimental to any political party. (They can't be very effective vote-getters they are too self-righteous and offputting.) That's why we wanted you to feel safer posting over here. Hopefully, it's a better forum.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Well, if he is still close...
To him, no way. Remember that "done" post? Not sure if you saw it. People made pix. drawings of me committing suicide... My editor wrote Kos a very polite letter (I mean very polite)... and the response was absolute crap. I can't get into it here, but it was not the response one would want to get. No one ever apologized and people just egged it all on and for what? I mean what could I have possibly done to these people that would warrant such an attack...

Plus, I don't need any reminders of death... they don't seem to get that part. I also get enough hate mail and attacks from the Repugs. It is not right to be treated like that by your own side.

I just don't think I can support anyone who would allow such tactics. If he is close to him, then it reflects on him.
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. The fleas are annoying and painful,
but they are just fleas. They can not kill Dean's message or his party, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. Some Deaniacs have just got to wake up and realize that Dean is 100% Democrat. Dean admires democrats like Kerry, Gore, and even (fake gasp) Bill Clinton. Why the hell did Gore endorse Dean in the first place?
No don't post out there if you don't want to get bitten. Post in the JK group. We all are good democrats here who won't hate on our fellow Democrats.
I've "Deanaics" spew some of the worst hatred and lies about the democratic party. I am disturbed, but I can't abandon the doctor.
Dean is a tolerant man who has fought for my rights as a queer citizen. These "Deaniacs" have a lot to learn from the doctor, such as respect for others who don't share your particular opinions or way of life.
Know this: Dean will fight for any Democrat to become elected to the presidency, senate, congress, governorship, down to the county council. He did it in 2004, he'll do it in 2006 and 2008 and 2010...
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Okay, have I upset you guys?
am going to bed...worried that I will actually be awake for the blood bath that begins this fine Sunday. good lord, I can't believe I live in Russian again.
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. You have not upset me, lala, you are cool,
those stupid "Deaniacs" who hate on us democrats upset me. You are more than welcome here. You don't hate on us and you post some good stuff.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. you're from Russia originally?
My great grandfathers worked on the Russian railroad before coming here.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. Naw
Some of us agree about the supporters, but I think we're trying to give the actual men a break. I hate to see rabid Kerry supporters attacking Dean and/or Clark. Luckily there don't seem to be as many of those.

The Deaniacs I'm starting to make friends with. I started by offering to put a Dean Primer on my site, telling them I didn't know him well enough an I wanted to find out who he was in case we end up with him as chairman. Some of them really responded well to that.

As for Dean, my jury is still out on the man himself. And even though I'm "Little Clarkie" I don't know enough about Clark either. I only know that he was my Politics 101. I got into the election in the first place because of Clark. But I'm woefully underinformed.

For some reason one or two Clark supporters, and it really is only one or two prolific ones, are getting on my nerves at the moment.

Some of these folk are so strident, and almost heartless in their own way. But I guess that comes with the internets. Everyone is ruder than they would be in life.

But for me this is not the time to refight 2004's battles, or to start the 2008 battles early. Now is the time to fight for the newly released Dem agenda and work for the 2006 candidates. The rest is just too divisive.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #18
42. Don't let it get to you
I agree that tolerance is a very important foundation of the left wing. There are always going to be the bashers and slammers. You need to just skip those threads, and find more positive ones IMO. The slammers aren't the majority - they just sometimes post like they are.
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
44. I actually have hopes for Dean as a unifier.
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 11:43 AM by CBHagman
I am a Kerry supporter (beginning in January 2004) -- I have witnesses! :-) -- but heard Dean speak at a book signing some months back. I was pleased by the broad appeal he made to the assembled customers, including one guy from the neighborhood who is known for reading Ann Coulter books and the like. Granted, some of those present were diehard Dean supporters and would have gone wild no matter what he said, but his basic message wasn't "Look at me" but "Here's what we have in common."

May that spirit take over. God knows we have enough infighting and grief among ourselves. We should remember the maxim "We must all hang together, or we shall surely hang separately."
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