I guess TNR doesn't like Kerry very much

[paulk]

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=w060828&s=frank082806


This week, TNR Online committed the web-forum equivalent of approaching a pen of hungry rottweilers and tossing in a bunny. That is, we asked our readers whether John F. Kerry (better known by right-wing detractors as John François Kerry) might have a shot at the White House in 2008. A mist of bones and fur briefly filled the air.

Let's just say that Kerry's not the first choice of most TNR readers. "HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!" writes arsonplus. "By which I mean to say, no, HELL NO! I'm not even sure should be allowed on 'Meet the Press.'" He's not alone in such feelings. To put it differently, of 180 responses, only 12 showed evidence of nonrevulsion at the thought of a second Kerry run. (As always, comments have been edited for clarity, punctuation, and spelling.)

So let's start with those Kerry enthusiasts, since they surely don't follow the crowd. Reader williamyard is one such maverick. "With a bold, creative VP choice, Kerry could shed his lingering image of cluelessness from '04 and hence tickle the electorate's fancy," williamyard suggests. "The possibilities are myriad. John Kerry and Al Roker. John Kerry and Eminem. John Kerry and Charo. No, wait ... I've got it: John Kerry and the Phillie Phanatic." And mark ronolson down for yes: "There is something seriously wrong with John Kerry, as demonstrated by his inability to move on with his life ... A Kerry campaign would provide a fascinating look into a disturbed psyche." And here's another fan: "Yes! Kerry, yes! In 2008. And in 2012," says ChanRobt. "For the '08 Democratic nomination, the overwhelming choice of Republicans."

also, some (mostly negative)comments from a website I check out every day...


http://www.themoderatevoice.com /

------------------------------------------------------


WHY?

I truly don't understand why so many in the blogosphere, both on the left and right, dislike Kerry. I really get upset over the constant din of ABB. Was Kerry really the "anybody but Bush" candidate? I'll tell you, Kerry was the first candidate who I supported in the primary who actually went on to become the nominee. So, it's hard for me to understand the anti-Kerry sentiment that STILL is so pervasive on the internets.





:argh:

[TayTay]

1. Ahm, it's TNR

They endorsed Lieberman in '04.

Ahm, they didn't even include Kerry in their list of candidates in an issue in '04 devoted to primary candidates.

I'm surprised he pulled in 12 maybes.

[paulk]

3. I didn't realize TNR was that bad

I get their e-mail newsletter, occasionally they'll have an article interesting enough to read...

I guess what surprised me was the comments from other site I'd linked to. I've been adding more moderate websites to my "reading" list these last few months - mostly because I've grown so disillusioned with DU's lefty freepers... so I was a little taken back to see the same nonsense being posted in regards to Kerry that we see so often here.

[WildEyedLiberal]

4. That's what sucks so bad about being a sane Kerry supporter

Namely, that EVERYONE ELSE IS NUTS.

The lefty freeper/purist/"progressive"/"netroots" crowd hates Kerry.

The "moderate"/DLC/"pragmatic"/"centrist"/(neocon) crowd hates Kerry.

I'm to the point where my response is "fuck them all." Fuck the lefty purist handwringers and the cynical triangulating mealy-mouthed "centrists" - neither faction represents any real living breathing voting Democrat that I know, all of whom liked JK (and most of the other candidates) very much and who believe he would have made an amazing president. All of these nattering talking heads are beyond irrelevant. If anything, I'm happy to see Kerry receive such snide contempt from the TNR crowd. The Lieberman wing of the Democratic party is in its death throes and their Kerry hatred represents the last bitter gasps from a failed ideology. The era of third-way triangulation is over, and I'm quite thrilled that they are dragging dead weight like Joe Lieberman down with them - their contempt for Kerry can at this point only be a positive in the real world.

[WildEyedLiberal]

13. Addendum

I'm not trying to say "fuck all centrists" by any means - like you said downthread, Kerry had the most diverse group of supporters, from all racial and age groups and ranging the ideological spectrum from very left-wing to conservative. As with the lefty freepers and liberals, a distinction must be drawn between moderates/centrists and the TNR/Lieberman crowd. One is a group of concerned Democrats who perhaps are not so far left ideologically, or who may be personally but who understand the need to reach out to independent/conservative voters to win; the other is a purely political creature which exists to solidify its own power and to undermine anyone who gets in the way of that goal. I consider myself pretty liberal but I can't stand the lefty purists because they seek to purge and belittle everyone who disagrees with them. I can't stand the TNR crowd either for the exact same reason.

[cadmium]

25. me too

The more nasty they are the more concerned they are and that is good.

Look at the way they come out to repeat themselves everytime he an entry on the Huffington Post.

At some point I decided that the more the hacks don''t like Kerry the more I do.

[ProSense]

2. The Moderate Voice is

a right-wing rag! Clever names they use like the Democracy Project.

[paulk]

6. not really - more centrist than anything

they have a very good listing of links - everything from DU to FreeRepublic...

It's a good place to link out from - to get an idea of what the entire political spectrum of the blogosphere is saying, IMO.

[ProSense]

7. I'm really going by the articles

that pop up on Google, very conservative to almost freepish. Even at the site, the articles always have a right lean to them.

[fedupinBushcountry]

8. Why would they link

to such a site as FreeRepublic, which by the way is the right wing site and who welcomed the swift boat liars as Corsi is a member there.

[paulk]

11. they don't link to articles

they just have a section called "voices" that links to websites, listed as "left", "center", "right", and "other".

It's the most comprehensive list of blogs and websites I've come across - everyday I try to check out at least one from each group, just to get an idea of what people from across the entire political spectrum are talking about.

[ProSense]

14. Well, linking to sites like

the Democracy Project is giving credibility to smear! Swift Liars obviously have nothing to do with honest debate.

[karynnj]

5. ABB was a myth

In many past elections in the primaries if the frontrunner were unacceptable to many, people would say they are ABX and band behind an unobjectable candidate who had the best chance of the many others. (The main time I remember hearing it was ABC, where C was Carter - and Carter still won.) It was never a term used in the general election - where a large percent of people almost always vote for one of the 2 parties. I was anti-Bush starting in 2000 - I would have voted for any of the Democrats - Kerry was my favorite candidate ever - but am I ABB?

In 2004, this really didn't happen. From the moment actual ballots were cast, Kerry was the front runner. The media played up a Dean/Kerry race after Ohio. This should have ended when Kerry easily defeated Dean in NH (38 to 26) - especially when Dean said he was not going to even try to win the 7 states that were next on the first multi-state day, but would compete in later states. The 7 states were not hospitable to a NE liberal or moderate to liberal candidate, but Kerry won 5 of them - MO, ND, DE, NM, and AZ. Clark won OK with 30 % (Edwards was also 30% and Kerry 27% - closer than what Lieberman would have called a three way tie). Edwards won SC with 45% (Kerry got 30%). This was an amazing result for Kerry. Kerry continued winning in other states including WA and MI. When he beat Dean in WI - the state Dean designated as the test - Kerry got about 40%, Edwards 34% (I think) and Dean single digits - the media finally said that Dean was out.

But then, they declared that Edwards was the only one to defeat Kerry. This was in spite of the fact that up to that point he had won only SC and would need to win almost everything left. In the next multi state day contests, Kerry was polling as much as 50 points higher in some! They included MA, CA and NY. Kerry in fact won all the remaining states except NC (Edwards) and VT (Dean).

What this shows is that Kerry had more universal support among Democrats than almost any previous candidate for a completely open nomination. I was for Tsongus, not Clinton who was nearly my last choice of those possible - I never in the general election said I was ABB. I preferred Bradley (my ex-Senator) to Gore - I never said I was not for Gore in the general election. I certainly wasn't for Carter, though I respect him now. I was not excited when any of them won the nomination, but was when they ran the general election. Why was this election different than all other elections? My guess - never was there as decisive a win for the man who had neither the media or the party supporting him.

The media was enchanted with first Dean - until they dumped him, then Clark, then Edwards. Kerry got covers ONLY as he won primaries. He didn't get a NYT magazine cover till Sept/Oct 2004! The blogs were also not pushing Kerry. The party accepted him only when none of their earlier favorites materialized.

So, this ABB is essentially spoiled brat behavior on the part of supporters of others. Kerry, at his convention, was very generous to his opponents and to past leaders of the party. Carter was given a slot to speak for the first time in 24 years! Al Gore, then a pariah was given a slot. It was nothing Kerry did that caused this. Could it have been bloggers repeating that he was unfair to Dean, when Dean was backing him to the hilt? Could it have been various people still in love with Clinton - such as Carville and Begala, 2 of the very few Democrats with face time on TV, who spent the entire general election making snarky comments about Bush - then knocking Kerry and saying that they were ABB? Now they want to rewarded with the coronation of Princess Hillary.

As to TNR, they should be reminded that in 2004, their readers were for Lieberman - Although I doubt Kerry wants to rule out support from any part of the party, I think he can live without the Lioeberman neo-con faction - after all I think Lieberman's best showing was in the single digits.

Why this now? Who is the only politician (I think) using the word Neoconseravtives - and not in a positive way.

[paulk]

10. great outline of the primary

I've never understand this ABB meme - like you say, Kerry was the overwhelming choice of Democrats. I never ran into that sentiment out here in the real world. Another thing - out here in reality, the Kerry people were the most diverse group of all the candidate supporters I talked to. His support was broad and wide.

I'd hate to think that the behaviour of Carville, et al, was that calculated - with an eye to 2008. I tend to think that Kerry has always been disliked by a certain faction of the Democratic Party - he's too much the liberal, and he's from the northeast...

I could be wrong.

[karynnj]

21. I shouldn't have suggested a motive without proof

but I can remember that even after the first multistate day - where to me, Kerry's win of the nomination was already very likely, one of them was still speaking of a brokered convention calling on Hillary if Kerry failed to get enough electors - yet he had just won a set that should NOT have been his. Every comment compared Kerry negatively to Bill - Kerry's principles were not as good as Bill's "flexibility". I really got sick of them. Also, the snarkiness and silliness of the Bush comments were also counterproductive as they added to Michael Moore etc difused the difference from the high road Kerry campaign and the dirty Bush campaign.

[JohnKleeb]

9. The Philly Fanatic?

You know I would have no problem if their criticisms weren't childish shit. I had always liked Kerry honestly from the moment I heard that Teddy Kennedy was backing him now that's a bit silly in retrospect to base your opinion on an endorsement but I really never got why many in the left in the party had so much aminsoity for him. I really only had a problem with his perceived hawkishness on Iraq and on his trade position but two things you're not gonna always agree with people even those you have a lot of respect and admire and furthermore I think his more realist position on Foreign Policy is now closer to mine than it was in the 2004 primaries, I was what one would call a dove then but now hard to define my positions as either dovish or hawkish. One of the biggest problems I feel our party has as far as nominating people goes at least is that we don't believe in giving people second chances to run for the highest office. Look at the Republicans, Nixon lost in 1960 and came back to win and Reagan lost a hard fought primary to Gerald Ford in '76 and we all know what ended up happening.

[paulk]

12. you want to get really pissed off?

listen to this episode of "This American Life" - Ira Glass on NPR.

Act Two. Political Cat. Ira talks about a specter who haunts the floor of the United States Senate, a specter who won't go away, who keeps showing up on TV and making speeches. That ghostly figure? John Kerry. Ira says seeing him on these days is kind of like bumping into someone you used to date. It's over; it didn't work out, and you don't want to see them anymore. (8 minutes)

http://www.thislife.org/

8/18 episode 316


Talk about that Democratic compulsion toward eating our own... and I used to really like this show.

[WildEyedLiberal]

15. Ira can speak for himself

Seems to me that from the crowds Kerry regularly draws, most Democrats are quite fond of seeing him still.

I grow more and more disillusioned with the Democratic party every day.

[ProSense]

16. It's the typical concerted

BS attacking any Democrat who would question the status quo:

Here (check out the Hezbollah references): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-hanft/the-high-cost-of-bashing-_b_28084.html">The High Cost of Bashing Wal-Mart; Another Democratic Miscalculation

The media blitz is on and Ezra Klein has a response: Wal-Mart: Round Two

so does Steve Gilliard: Cluelessness in print


There are forces in the mushy middle and on the right who do not want change.


Edited to add: Kerry is the biggest challenge to the status quo; therefore, the biggest target!

[JohnKleeb]

17. That's so lame

What does Ira Glass expect Kerry to do sit on his ass? I mean seriously if Kerry did nothing these same people would be whining "He does nothing" and now that he does do something they mock him. Pretty immature bs if you ask me.

[ProSense]

18. You know, this really

pisses me off. With all the popularity Kerry still enjoys, and just about everyone now admitting he was right (because he was) on everything, these people still have the temerity to try to portray Senator Kerry as irrelevant. These are the same assholes who promoted the lie about JK's Senate record. The comment "inability to move on with his life" is so nonsensical, their license to practice punditry, or whatever it is they do, should be pulled. They are full of shit!

[paulk]

19. I was really surprised by the vitriol

I guess that's why I posted this.... I didn't realize that TNR (and it's readers) disliked Kerry so much. Some of those comments could just as easily have been written by right wingers.

I get so used to seeing this kind of thing from the "lefty" freepers, it came as a surprise to see it also coming from the other end of the "Democratic" spectrum.

[karynnj]

22. The comment "inability to move on with his life"

is also wrong because even if he decided never to run again, he would still be a pretty high ranking Senator and an excellent Democratic spokesman as he was for at least the last 15 years. As the standard bearer - overwhelmingly choosen by the Democratic people - he should be speaking out. As the one person who was the most correct on dealing with terrorism, he would be remiss not to speak out.

[Democrafty]

20. There's a reason

we included a lifetime subscription to TNR in the Fear of John Kerry 527 kit.

http://www.welovejohnkerry.com/2006/06/15/john-kerry-rocks-something-must-be-done-and-quick/

[TayTay]

23. I guess it's an even steeper hill to climb this time.

You have to play the hand that's dealt you. I think Sen. Kerry knows this. I think that's why he's still in there fighting. He took up a lot of causes since the Nov '04 loss. I wonder if the critics are fighting the man or the cause? In the case of TNR, they are fighting because they hate Kerry's stand on the issues, particularly Iraq. These were the Democratic War Hawks. They may give themselves permission to harbor doubts now, but they can't give that permission to anyone else. That's why they take after Kerry. His more fully formed opinions about how to get the US out of that situation and still try and preserve some ability for a US presence in the Middle East is gauling to them. Why wouldn't it be? There approach and their support of the bush/CHENY Admin has resulted in an unmitigated disaster of catastrophic proportions.

Ira Glass is one more 'why won't you go away' voice. There have been many. Too bad, get used to it. There are a great many liberals or near-liberals who are always looking for the Democratic Messiah and get pissed when the last presumed one won't go away. Sucks to be you sometimes Ira. I hope someone eventually clues him in that every single person who will ever run for elective office here or elsewhere will be, gasp, human and have human flaws. He should know that is never the story. The story is what you do with your limitations, what you do with your gifts and how much of a will to go on you actually have. That is the story and always will be. Sorry Ira finds ghosts where there are none, only living breathing people who manage to find a way to move on. (And seriously, who is it that hasn't moved on here, Kerry or Glass?)

[wisteria]

24. None of those you mentioned would say they were true Kerry supporters

to begin with. Nothing has changed IMO.They may have even indirectly contributed to his loss in 04. Senator Kerry has gained new supporters and keep many of his 04 supporters since the election. I suspect, these basher types don't like that and continue to try and mock him and in turn those who do support him. There is that old saying, you can't please everyone, so you please your self. i think Senator Kerry has found his voice and he is now at peace with himself. Many will recognize this and support him, the others well I hope they are left to eat his dust.

[ProSense]

26. Here are the sort of jerks TNR employs

until they're exposed!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2807630&mesg_id=2807630