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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 04:37 PM
Original message
Fun times to be an atheist!
How can anyone be an athiest?
http://www.democraticunderground.com//discuss/duboard.p...


Why Carl Sagan's Religion - Scientism- is not true science
http://www.democraticunderground.com//discuss/duboard.p...


Atheists/ agnostics: Can you run for office in your state?
http://www.democraticunderground.com//discuss/duboard.p...
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hey, thanks for pointing out the R&T thread
Another place for me to spit into the wind...
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. That essay sure seems to have been composed in a hurry.
I think the Sagan stuff began with a question triggered by the photo in my sig:

13. Question about Carl Sagan. Did he really end up saying he believed in
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Which inspired this:

An answer to chummer: no, Carl Sagan did NOT die believing in God
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


A measure of the man's impact, I suppose, that he's influenced so many free-thinkers... and still drives the religionists crazy. :)
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. *runsout of R&T, snuggles by A&A's fireplace*
*drinks straight from hipflask, opens up Demon-Haunted World, finally relaxes*

Man, it is brutal in there. I started and stopped a dozen posts, no kidding. I'd get banned if I posted in R&T...
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. I'm a marked woman.
I dared post in the one of the Christianity groups asking them to join someone who wants to do some good here in NC. I'm about to be hit by a shitstorm of biblical proportions. I've been handed the little piece of paper with the black dot on it. Hide me, please. :scared:
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
46. You're hidden!
We can set up a coast-to-coast network to smuggle you out of JesusLand. Bring the guitar! ;-)

I grew up in Upstate South Carolina so, believe me, I know how you feel.

Lived in Los Angeles for many years now, where the neighbors barely speak to you, and certainly don't come over to rant at you about their delusions and fairy tales.

L.A. is Gomorrah to the Fundies. Sodom is about 400 miles up the coast, in San Francisco.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #46
65. Wow.
Both Sodom & Gomorrah are way up high on my list, for places I'm looking into when the time comes and I can afford to pick up my guitars and head for the lovely sounding California. I used to idolize NY growing up, but then realized I might just be in love with California. I would say that San Francisco and LA are like #1 and #2 on my list at this point just going by the people and the pictures and the rumors that California is anything goesland. I am looking for the hugest gay scene so I may stand a decent chance at finding someone who'll like me back one day. Straight people who are open minded make better friends too than the people here in NC who claim to be liberal and openminded yet are not really. That does happen a lot too.
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. You mean "athiest."
:crazy:

Apparently faith in God requires that you not use spell check.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Some radio ranter must've been howling about religion
today, getting his captive audience in various workplaces worked into a lather.

The mods have been great, though, locking the really insulting stuff pretty quickly.
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RevolutionaryActs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Damn "athiests" what a bunch of morans for not believing.
:crazy:

:eyes:
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Oh, that "scientism" baloney again...
Edited on Mon Apr-11-05 08:10 PM by onager
Moldy, stale and poisonous.

Just for fun, do a google on "scientism." You'll find a lot of Fundie/Creationist sites harping on it.

It seems like just another lame-ass smokescreen. One more attempt to trump up a new world-view that is, of course, invented, defined and championed strictly by religious believers.

Try arguing against "scientism" and I bet it will be a lot like arguing against "intelligent design." Your opponent will change the definitions as it suits their argument.
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm shocked
I can't run for Gov in my State!!

Nutz now what am I gonna do with all my free time.


Seriously though I'm really shocked this still exists in MA. I couldn't find a replealing admendment in the online version of the Constitution. I'll have to do some real research on that.

If that Chapter is still in effect I now know how we can get people to forget about the whole same-sex marriage thing here in MA.

I'll sue to the SJC and those fireworks will make the same-sex debates look like a group hug.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I really do think theres a helluva lot of Atheists
out there afraid to come out of the closet. I think theres definately been more support in the GD forums and less flaming that what I normally expect.

I think that many politicians are Atheists but would never admit it publicly. Its a bad political move. Considering the number of Xtian voters in this country. Its not that they aren't out there, they just don't want to lose their jobs.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Hey Discord,
whatever you do, don't go over to r&t.
There is definitely more support from some du'ers but they're being drowned out by the overly compensating crowd tonight.
yeesh
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. oops, too late.
nt
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. LOL. Hey there. Well as willing as I am to take a beating
for the sake of rankling a few feathers here and there, I generally avoid R&T like the plague.

I always leave there feeling very dirty.

I couldn't help but post something in the link that was posted here.

Sometimes I just cant keep my trap shut from making some kind of wise ass comment. Some are just too ignorant NOT to pick on.

:evilgrin:
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. If it says "atheist"
we're invited to the party.
:evilgrin:
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yeah I just caught some of the grammar police.
wierd... but the FReepers have been complaining that were intellectual snobs, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised...

:sarcasm:
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I just get pissed when they use that forum
to call out atheists. They probably think they have an audience that will laugh at how "witty" they are.
Yeah, we're laughing alright. :evilgrin:
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. have no solid arguments to fight on even ground.
So they rely on the mob mentality to bully and intimidate atheists who roam unto their den.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Psycho babble mostly.
Looks like most of the christians and other religious du'ers aren't buying it any more than we are.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. yeah, I've seen a handful of christian DU'ers
defending more reasonable debate. They remain specific about their issues with advancement of the church, seperation of church and state, and the dominionist threat. Rather than blanketly defending ALL religion and Christianity. Which is very short sighted.

I like to post once and a while the ending to a popular saying..



"When they came for me... It was already too late."

And while the DU Xtians might make it through the first round of American ElimiNation, for being Xtian. They well still come for them... for being Liberal.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #25
42. Ain't that the truth.
I go off the deep end when I hear dems say we should lay off the gay marriage issue because it's too controversial.
I don't want to win if we have to abandon somebody.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. My mom. A longtime lesbian feminist activist.
Keeps telling her advocacy and activism groups to lay off. She's been an active fighter for womens and gays rights for a long time.

She thinks that they are hurting their chances at ever recieving their desired goal by being too firm in their demands. Many places have offered to accept civil unions. With the majority of the same rights as any married couple. She compares it to the early days of the black rights movement. They fought and struggled, demanding freedom and equality... but, when they were offered a compromise... they took it. Simply put. Somthing is better than nothing. So they took the segregation "seperate but equal" terms because it wasn't what they wanted, but it was better than what they had. It doesn't mean that you stop fighting... but take the deal, let people cool their jets, in 4-6 years after civil unions are legal and more common, it wont be nearly as hard to get to the goal, without all the excess drama, and in an overall, shorter amount of time with better conditions in the meantime.

:)
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. That's realistic.
I agree compromise is better than walking away with nothing but some dems-including other minorities-don't even want the gay rights issue on the table.
:wtf:
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. well, I think it should continue to be talked about.
that prevents it from becomming taboo again. and taking compromises along the way. its tough to hold an all or nothing attitude.

just because I believe that this world would be an infinately better place without religion in it, could you imagine the uproar if I was intent on that and nothing else? how far would I get? not far I imagine.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Definitely, nobody should be a one issue campaigner.
I just think if we abandon unpopular causes because they might hurt us, we become that which we loathe.
For instance, I have an african american friend who believes that gay couples do not deserve the same legal status as heteros. Where would he be if others had felt the same way when he was being oppressed?
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. exactly. the hard part is knowing how hard to push.
society tends to soften on controversial issues over time, but push too hard and people get their undies in an uproar. Initially, it always takes a significant push to get things started, but once the wheels start moving, best to move slow and steady.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm missing my owners manual,
can you lend me yours?
Specifically the chapters on whether I am considered a "hard" or a "soft" atheist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. I think the poster forgot about the agnostics (soft atheists).
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. Well, THAT was a classic...
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 01:23 AM by onager
...collection of self-built strawmen. (I'm responding to the linked message that Beam Me Up posted.)

Why are so many Bewievers OBSESSED with parsing atheism this way? I had fun reading that from the opposite POV. Imagine an atheist pompously describing "hard" and "soft" Xians while acting as a self-appointed expert...complete with the condescending little pat on the head about "the argument has been going for 2,500 years."

I think they do it just to separate us into the Possibly Convertible ("soft" atheists") and the Completely Lost.

I don't believe in gods. Any gods. Why is that so fucking hard to grasp?
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. That was close to
the definition of "strong" and "weak" atheism.

The poster doesn't quiet grasp the difference and the significance of "weak" vs "strong" (or as he terms it "soft" vs "hard") and tries to build an argument on his misunderstanding.

That's the most unfortunate thing, people just don't understand what it means to be atheist. And to some degree that is our responsibility to communicate better what it means. We should try not to beat people up for lack of knowledge and try to educate.

I know I get frustrated too and sometimes a person needs a little verbal smack to get the point but the more we can educate and communicate to better for everyone.

BTW: I'm not accusing anyone of beating anyone up just making a general statement.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. I try to educate some people.
But "blind faith" is exactly what it says it is.
Most HARD Christians posess "blind faith" The shut-off valve has been closed. Nothing, no matter how strong the presentation of facts is, will change their minds. Their entire spirit is tied into their faith. For them, as was pointed out to me by a lifetime Catholic of 50+ years, who "lost Faith", that the feeling of losing faith was the same for her as, and I quote, "being told by your doctor you have a terminal disease." It shook the entire foundation of everything she had built her life upon. She said that at that moment she had lost faith, she had never felt so alone in her life.

I sympathised with her for her ordeal, but she assured me that since then, her life has seemed richer and that she vowed to make as much of this life as she could. One of the very few cases of a devout Christian converting at such a late age I have ever seen.
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Personally
I never try to convert anyone unless they come to me with questions.

Because you're right it is a foundation of their world view and it's unlikely in the extreme that they will change that no matter what evidence.

When I say educate I just mean educate about what it means to be atheist and what kind of people we are. The furthest I go in education is to try and educate about freedom of and from religion, never to convert. Unless like I say someone is coming to me with questions.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. while in principle, I agree, but...
there is no standard description of an Atheist other than "we dont believe in god/gods." Thats about the only given between Atheists. Other than that... we're like a box of chocolates...lol
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. And that is part of what we need to educate them on.
We're a least as diverse as xian's. There are fundamentalist and casual xians and believers of all sorts. Atheists have a least as wide a spectrum and at least as wide a diversity in beliefs as theists.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. The problem with most discussions if that our positions
are dyametricly opposed. Ours contradicts theirs and vice versa.

There no universal middle ground to be had with them on the fundamentals of our beliefs. Makes it very difficult when everything I say is offensive to them and vice versa.

The only debate to be had with christians is in social issues, when in most cases with DU'ers, they don't even adhere to their own dogma for their chosen religion, and agree with us on most social issues.
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
22. Ah the love and understanding we get
I posted something about this in the Mass forum and look at the welcoming and understanding response I got from one particular poster:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Why do you hate jesus?
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 08:01 AM by beam me up scottie
Must be something in the water, better stick with bottled.
Why else would someone wonder why we are offended by something that does not exist?

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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Onager?
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. oops, just fixed it, so so sorry.
:banghead:
Only on my 5th cup of java, some days I need a jump start.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Wow. early start today eh?
I'm still working on my first cup...
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. I'd be in a coma without this stuff.
:hangover:

nt
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. :) no problem
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
62. "Look, will you just live a lie, please?"
I have been in and out of threads all day, again not posting for fear that I'll get my behind kicked outta here... A few weeks ago, I took everyone off my Ignore list; looks like I'll have to start up again.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
32. I see the new rules are protecting Christian sensibilities nicely.
Of course they don't do much for us freethinkers. People are still free to bash us - the last minority it's acceptable to hate.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Yeah, I was reading an article last night
comparing the plight of the homosexuals in comparison to ours. Theres alot of striking similarities. One of the biggest, is how many people "fake" being religious to simply avoid persecution or confrontation.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. Yep, I've said that before.
It would be easier for my christian family to accept me as gay than as an athiest/agnostic/other. Their god is a pretty accepting, regardless of ones sexual orientation.

But to shun god, that's just asking for trouble.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. well, we got alotta PR work to do... LOL
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. You know, I noticed that too.
For weeks we've been told to shut up and not to pick on christians.
So now it's perfectly acceptable to mis-characterize and disrespect us?
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Yup. I even directly questioned the Moderator
who posted a copy of the "rules".

And noted 2 things in his post that we're directly offensive to Atheists and questioned his bias.
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fshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
35. How can anyone not be an atheist?
Naaa... Too complicated.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. I don't get how any christian can not be Agnostic.
I mean the only way to KNOW there is a God is that you have proof of it. If you have proof. Show the rest of the world. If you don't have proof, but have faith in the possability, then you are Agnostic. There are all kinds of shades of grey for Agnsotics, some who lean heavily in their faith of the existence of God, some even self-delusional enough to believe that had some form of actual contact with God. (straight jackets please...) Most just hold onto the hope and possibilty of one. Very few remotely intelligent christians are without doubt in their own faith. Most thinkers who are christian, have addopted their own versions and dont follow dogma. But for many people, its all they've ever known.
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fshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
55. Aaaah... C'mon: the proof is in your heart!
And in the mass of believers...
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Does that require corrective surgery to fix?
sounds terminal to me...

:scared:
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
43. The "emergency brake" comment was pretty funny...
nt
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. The pope picture one?
that was quite hilarious.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Yeah,
it still cracks me up.
But then again, I'm a disrespectful, insensitive juvenile, so what do I know?
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. more than most.
:P


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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I haven't seen that one
oh go on, gooo oonnnnn, please let us in on it! :-) Or was it in the now deleted "Sagan-scientism" thread?
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. was a couple weeks ago during the height of pope-a-thon
week.

Prolly archived by now.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. It was from this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Read posts #19, 20 & 21

How can anybody NOT find that funny?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Thanks
I was on a "ignore all pope threads" mission then, so I missed it.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Just when the pope threads were dying out
the minutemen threads started to heat up. I had a migraine and was out for a day and a half, there's no telling what I missed.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
63. Hmmm... Two out of three, sent down the memory hole...
:shrug:

"How can anyone be an athiest?"

and

"Why Carl Sagan's Religion - Scientism- is not true science"
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. nice photo of Carl Sagan
I liked him a lot. When I saw that thread in GD about Sagan, I couldn't even read it, because I knew I would get mad.

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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 04:34 AM
Response to Original message
66. Locking
Please do not use DU Groups to complain about treatment or other groups/forums as per EarlG's post pinned at the top of this forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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