So do you all agree with me that the Catholics with their massive coverup are as pervy as the FDLS

[Exultant Democracy]

creeps in Texas http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3239304&mesg_id=3239596

I just don't see the difference between child molesters who use make believe to molest kids.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

1. No, in the FLDS case it's the entire congregation -- their entire society, not just the clergy.

Loosely speaking, it's the difference between a cancer that has metastasized and one that has not.

[cosmik debris]

2. I don't see it as an issue

Religion is generally a bad thing. Deciding which part is the worst is an academic exercise I don't need.

You may as well ask which tastes worse, cow shit or horse shit. (If you have an opinion on that subject, you have a real problem.)

[LeftyMom]

3. The individuals involved, sure. The group as a whole? Heck no.

If all priests were molesting kids, the laity was supportive of molestation and trained kids to accept and embrace being diddled, and the molestation was lifelong, the two would approach comparability.

Luckily, that's not the case.

[varkam]

4. Apples and oranges, IMO.

The only connection between the two is child molestation, though FLDS seems to be set up to encourage such behavior in a way that the catholic church and it's attendant hierarchy is not. In other words, I think such behavior was much more of an epidemic in FLDS communities than in catholic communities - though that is not to say that the catholic church doesn't have dirt on it's hands.

[Lost-in-FL]

5. I don't believe so

In FDLS is in the open, of course, within their confines and justified in their beliefs. It isn't pervy to many of them but they think is normal because of brainwashing. I do think is deviant behavior in the part of many adults within their community who submit children for their pleasure.

In catholicism is still seen as wrong by the congregation. Even when the Vatican covered up the crime, it was still seen as wrong by their members and many were verbal against the abuses (after the fact of course).

In other words the congregation in the FLDS covered it up and accepted it as a norm while in catholicism is to the contrary, seen by many as an abomination and a sin. The massive coverup of the catholic church was an attempt to rid the church of the embarrassment. IMHO keeping these criminals and moving them elsewhere was an act of naive stupidity in the part of the pope. He trusted them thinking that being afraid of gawd was sufficient to control their behavior. Ever heard the phrase "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”? I think the pope thought he could use he's super-dooper powers and make them not want children and virgin (I'm talking about the preachers here) again. I do not think his intent was criminal but I wasn't there when they made that decision so anything is in the open. But of course, no one has to agree with me.

[goddess40]

7. I can't believe I'm going to defend any religion but here I go...

Not all versions of FDLS are perverted as this one is, and this one only uses the FDLS version of religion as a front because it works to their perverted favor. That said, I do think the core church had to have some knowledge of what was being done in their name and by not actively outing them and demanding that they stop using their name they do become a sort of accomplice.


I also think we are to quick to give the Catholic parishioners as pass on their behavior. Years ago when a kid tried to tell their parents about what Father Perve was doing they usually got a smack in the mouth, which makes those parents a party to the crime. Even today when a priest is outed for child molesting their will be a very vocal support group, that even in the face of over whelming evidence, will stand by their "Father" and a very silent majority that say nothing. Those around the victim will sometimes condemn the man who did the molesting but rarely blast the church who often knowingly put the child(ren) in harms way by playing musical priest with a known pervert.

I also know that many child molesters have some disorder that has their sexual wiring messed up but I can never forgive them for acting on it. Since there is no known cure I believe that people with this affliction should be placed in closed communities with no access to children.

[shrike]

9. I also think parenting used to be much different in those days

"I also think we are to quick to give the Catholic parishioners as pass on their behavior. Years ago when a kid tried to tell their parents about what Father Perve was doing they usually got a smack in the mouth, which makes those parents a party to the crime."

There used to be a "sit down and shut up" mentality with some parents. My husband, who is a bit older than me, tells me stories of how he and his sibs would fall out of trees, bleed like stuck pigs and Mom and Dad would just shrug and say, "You're all right." So this generation of "permissive" parenting isn't all bad.

Neil Sheehan's book, "A Bright Shining Lie" has a very poignant passage in its story of John Paul Vann. Vann, who was fatherless and a very poor boy, was taken under the wing of a very dynamic minister known for his championship of poor children of great talent. The guy was also a serial molester. Eventually he committed suicide after the church could no longer ignore his problem and defrocked him, and after his wife and son left him, and he was penniless.

What drives these guys? You couldn't help but admire this man; he was on the right side of everything, we'd be lauding him here on DU. He did so much good for the world, and so much harm to a lot of little boys.

[John Gauger]

11. Bullshit.

He knew exactly what he was doing. These bishops and cardinals are educated men. They have law degrees and divinity degrees and the like. They are not your backwater Baptist bible-thumpers. These men attended the finest schools in the world. Cardinal Bevilacqua, the Philadelphia Archbishop, holds two law degrees. The bishops and cardinals have quite a bit of personal experience with child abusers. This is not a new phenomenon. The Philly Grand Jury found allegations of abuse going back to 1967. It's not like this just jumped up at the pope in 2002 and he had no idea what was going on or how to handle it. They know from personal experience that simply moving a child abuser does not stop his abuse. The Grand Jury concluded that what they originally thought to woeful incompetence was in fact a malicious obstructionism. They had no illusions that they were doing anything to fix the problem; they were just covering it up.

[John Gauger]

6. I am currently reading the Philly Grand Jury's report

on the Archdiocese of Philadelphia's coverup of the sex scandal. 63 priests were found to have sexually abused children within the Archdiocese. It is eminently clear that a culture of impunity has been created. Priests are aware that they can do whatever they want to children and get away with it. I'd have to say yes, they are as bad as the FLDS.

[shrike]

8. Depends on the diocese

Policies can vary so much, even from parish to parish.

The local diocese has a policy of immediately turning the matter over to the prosecutor's office, announcing the situation in every diocesan parish and then holding a press conference. They had to do this two years ago, in fact; must be very embarrassing, but the bishop believes the sooner you get it out in the open, the better. I have to agree with him.

Here in the Chicago area, where I live, we've seen many cover-up situations, many of which do not involve the church, and most of which do not involve child abuse. I theorize that it is a tribal thing: we take care of our own, we are all priests/cops/doctors/lawyers, what have you. I'm not saying it isn't wrong, it's VERY wrong, and thank God the attitude seems to be changing somewhat, if you'll excuse the expression.

Not that it still doesn't go on. Right now, there's a guy who operates a gymnastic school for girls who's been charged with having sexual congress with some of his students. Many people have rallied around him; his family, his friends, the community. Again, I think it's the tribal thing; it's in our genes. Not condoning it, just trying to call it for what it is.

[John Gauger]

10. It wasn't just the Philadelphia Archdiocese -

Cardinal Bevilacqua - the Archbishop - transferred some of his priests and accepted some priests from other Archdioceses in an effort to keep them from being found out. One of the priests who was actually convicted - these are very few among those who are known to have abused children - was from Brazil. He was deported instead of having to serve his jail term. This is not an isolated phenomenon.

And how do you know that your diocese is really turning over all their cases? Are they doing everything within their power to protect the children in their parishes, or are they just trying to look like they are? I do not take such a claim at face value.

[shrike]

12. 'Course it wasn't just Philadelphia. I used to live in Boston, and remember it well

What a mess that was (is).

As for whether or not this current diocese is doing all they can to protect children, I suppose one can't ever really take a claim at face value. There's also a Baptist Church in the area that had a problem with molestation (of girls.) They claimed they've changed, I sure as hell hope they've changed, but I'll never know for sure unless I can follow their clergy around there, day and night. Same with the Catholic clergy.

The big financial settlements have gone a long way toward lighting a fire under people. Everyone's afraid of getting sued. Even the public schools: I've talked to local (public school) teachers who say they have been told by their superiors NOT to touch children, even for a hug.

Despite all this, I think the litigation was a good thing. Money gets people's attention.

[Exultant Democracy]

13. A bunch of pervs used make believe so that they could diddle children

and have parents willing deliver the children into their hands because of their magic powers.

[Deep13]

14. Yes, I agree.

I'm not willing to pretend the RC church matter was isolated or a question of a few bad apples. I am also not willing to pretend parents are entirely innocent as their has historically been a great reluctance to challenge religious authority.