Looking for otc help with achy joints

[Shallah Kali]

My hips and knees have been bothering a bit lately when the weather changes so I have started looking into otc supplements to try. NSAIDS kill my gut so they are out. Glucosamine makes me want to upchuck for over 6 hours after taking it so that is out. Condroition is out as I am paranoid :tinfoilhat: about mad cow. I did find a camphor based cream called JointFlex that helps but only temporarily and does not help heal joint. Oh and unless I get lucky and find it in biglots it is $20 a tube :eek: The creams with menthol/menthyl (SP?) burn like the Dickens! Turmeric or extracts of it are used by some but turmeric like cinnamon contain natural blood thinners so that medicinal amounts for someone like me who comes from a family of bleeders is not good to be used for more than a few days. So right now, with apologies to the vegans amongst us, I am looking into chicken cartilage type ii, hyaluronic acid & SAM-e. Has anyone tried either of these for any reason and found good, bad or no effects or know someone who has? Have you found something else otc that helps your joints be happier? Thank you all for any responses :grouphug:

[elleng]

1. I don't know nuttin, Shallah,

but am wishing for you!

:)

[wovenpaint]

2. Have you tried magnets-or copper?

http://www.ehow.com/about_4727715_arthritis-copper-bracelets.html
I wear a bracelet for a wrist injury that helps quite a bit. A friend swears by copper rings on her fingers...

I know someone who scoffed when magnets were suggested for her horses-she begrudgingly gave it a try and was quickly impressed by the results. I also wear a magnetic bracelet from time to time, but am always getting it stuck to things, lol! (but it does help)
http://arthritis.about.com/od/magnet/Magnets_For_Arthritis_Magnetic_Treatments_Static_Magnet_Therapy.htm

Edited to add this site....http://www.promagnet.com/products/body_wrap.htm

Best wishes and good vibes for relief in whatever form you find it! :hi:

[Shallah Kali]

3. Hi magnets have helped my old arm break for years but at times even that isn't enough

I tried copper for that but all it did was turn my wrist green :p

The biggest problem with my joins is my hips at night and I don't know how I would go about trying attaching something that could be comfortable enough to sleep with. hm. I did get a magnectic knee wrap once but it didn't touch that :shrug:

I did get a bed topper that has helped a lot but still at the end of the day sometimes my hips still ache at me. I can deal during the day with stuff to distract me but not when I am trying to fall and stay asleep without tossing and turning like tumbleweed all night.

[NJCher]

4. stretches

Now maybe you do yoga regularly, in which case my suggestion is off-base.

But I occasionally have problems like you describe and a good stretching session gets rid of them.


Cher

[Shallah Kali]

7. Thank you for reminding me to do this

I have been neglecting yoga and I know from others how helpful it can be. Any gentle exercise helps the joints but yoga and other energy moving practices do more. The last few times I did a video I had big emotional release which while a good thing, in fact that it unblocks energy like this is one of the things I love about yoga, it was a bit overwhelming just then. heh with me complaining about being/feeling stuck maybe I reaaaaaaaaly need me some yoga :p

[kentauros]

5. With my recent bout of sciatica, I had to break my vegetarian diet

to take a multi-enzyme supplement my chiropractor gave me for the inflammation. That products is called "Intenzyme Forte" if you want to look it up. The first time I had sciatica, I tried an herb called boswellia. I didn't keep up with it as the pills were kind of large and I have trouble swallowing anything over "medium" size. You might try it, anyway. I also watched part of a herbal remedy show on Veria - Joint Fixer Elixir the other day and she was making a remedy for aching joints. This 5-minute condensed version seems to leave out some info, so the herbalists here might want to fill in the gaps ;)

[Shallah Kali]

6. Hi for a time I took a really nice enzyme that helped the joints

It is called serrazimes. It did wonders esp. for my old back injury. Then I noticed I bled longer if one of my cats scratched me or other minor injury and my gut got more sensitive so stopped even the occasional use at 1/4 the suggest dose that I was taking. I know women don't get hemophilia which does run in my family but several of us have shown something like it at times so when I noticed the longer bleed times I stopped it.

The Joint Fixer Elixer - at least two of those herbs, oregon grape root & angelica, can be used to help constipation so I can't take them as currently I have the opposite form of IBS.

I will look into boswellia and hope it is not one of those herbs on my no list because it can help treat constipation :)

[Shallah Kali]

12. darn. Boswellia can thin the blood

http://books.google.com/books?id=eCz0zrSXlq4C&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=boswellia+blood+thinner&source=bl&ots=2aogJk43rB&sig=KAl-PHcLjlO-ldzhpNBb4JN_qsU&hl=en&ei=Bpt0SuCVC5uNtgfGzNGWCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=boswellia%20blood%20thinner&f=false

[Desertrose]

8. My knees have been bad lately too....I tried a creme

...actually I use two different ones.

I know what you mean about bleeding easily.... that has been one of my problems too over the years. (Not fun!)

I use a 15% ibuprofen topical creme for pain.


15% Ibuprofen Creme by BioEntopic

Ibuprofen has proven tremendous for the relief of pain and inflammation. The down side is that oral consumption of Ibuprofen has been documented to induce stomach ulcers and create kidney and liver damage. The Europeans have been using “topical” Ibuprofen for years to gain the benefits of Ibuprofen without the side effects. BioEntopic™ 15% Ibuprofen Crème also includes MSM, Lidocaine, Arnica flower and Devil’s Claw Root for the most powerful synergistic complex available.

BioEntopic™ 15% Ibuprofen Crème is a topical preparation that includes all these herbal extracts in a synergistic bio-available complex.



Then to help with healing I use Celadrin creme -an old Edgar Cayce remedy.


Celadrin® Joint Cream

Celadrin is scientifically formulated to provide quick-absorbing, concentrated support to affected areas. This non-greasy, soothing joint cream contains the clinically-proven natural proprietary blend of esterified fatty acids. Natural, pleasant peppermint scent.

Ingredients: Water, Celadrin (7.5%) (Esterified Fatty Acid Complex (EFAC), Oilive Oil), Caprylic/Capric Tryglycerides, Glycerin, Isopropyl Myistate, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Emulsifying Wax NF, Mentha Piperita (Peppermint) Oil, Dehydroacetic Acid (and) Benzyl Alcohol, Dimethicon, Cetyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 80, Tocopherol, Triethanolamin, Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Sodium Magnesium Silicate, Citric Acid

Free Of
Parabens, mineral oil, artificial fragrances or artificial colors.

Directions
Gently massage onto affected areas until fully absorbed, twice daily as needed.




Also,for me (most likely a touch of arthritis..gak!!!) I find that icing my knees helps a bit with swelling.

Good luck!:hug: DR

[Shallah Kali]

13. Looking into the celadrin and found Now Foods makes a menthol free cream

Was excited at the celadrin website for the sample offer until I looked up the ingredients. Everyone else's Celadrin creams have menthol :( http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Celadrin-Skin-Renewal-with-Hyaluronic-Acid-2-fl-oz-60-ml/6109?at=0 still awaiting lucky vitamin pages to load :crazy: Now am looking into the celadrin for internal use checking for reported side effects...

as for ice maybe i should try it as much as I hate the cold. There is no swelling on these joints just aching. I have lost 75 lbs in the past year and a half and I never though I would miss anything but I think my hips miss having the padding when I sleep on my side at night :p

[BuddhaGirl]

51. the Ibuprofen cream is AMAZING

and it works so quickly...I can't say enough good things about it :hi:

[FirstLight]

9. I am a bather...that is my therapy

Sea salts, epsom salts and oils (lavender, and a blend of rosewood & tangerine) are the way I can take the pressure off my hips & back and soak some of the ache away before bed.

Nsaids eat my tummy too, so I take them rarely...and sometimes I feel like a eat tylenol like chicklets.
I have been on Enbrel for 6 months and if I get behind on a shot my joints flare up within 24 hours....and can take a day or so to regulate... I never realized how MUCH pain I was living with (or not ...at least I was nowhere near functional) ...until that edge comes back and reminds me!

so ya, I usually indulge in the bath, andI believe higher doses of Omega 3's help lube the joints and takje down the inflammatory edge. There are some more herbal ideas, lett me consult the medical book in a while...

I know personally I did MUCH better when I was taking regular supplements (and when I was smoking less...I really NEED to quit for the last time!) diet has alot to do with it. I know anything from the "nightshade' family will increase inflammation - potatoes, mushrooms, tomatoes and eggplant being the biggest culprits.

hang in there shallah! :hugs:

[Shallah Kali]

14. nooo not my taters!

{{{Shallah prays organic taters turn out to be low in nightshade-esque residues}}}

Potatoes are my go-to food to sooth my touchy gut sliced & baked in extra virgin olive oil, garlic (fresh & powdered) & herbs esp. Herbes de Provence. I just switched to organic to see if eating less pesticide and other chemical residues will make my bod a happier place to hang out in.

Omegas 3 - I have read of many people having all kinds of good effects from Omega3 fish and right now it is another thing I can't take right now due to ibs. I do eat eggs that have some omega 3s in 'em every day but obviously what I am getting is not enough.

[rumpel]

10. I have not tried any of the remedies, but I watched an interview of Dr. Robert Milne

on immediate pain relief.

here is the interview:
http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/rmilne.htm

and here is his website:
http://www.mvtrelief.com/

ooops: on edit fixed link

for whatever it's worth...

& healing vibes to you.

[Shallah Kali]

15. micro vibration therapy

hm. Never thought of using my back massage on the joints but maybe it is time to dig out the ole hitachi and see if it helps at all :)

[rumpel]

22. He says in the interview to start with the chakras

which are corresponding to the acupuncture meridians, sometimes that alone will do it.

[get the red out]

11. I read about tart cherry juice and supplements

I was reading about tart cherry juice and supplements and bought some for my husband just today. His Doctor told him not to take any NSAIDS because some other medication he is on already stresses his liver. He is going to try this to see if it is helpful. We only recently heard about it and figured it was worth a try to help his arthritis. I will try to update if this brings him any relief.

[Shallah Kali]

16. Hope this helps your husband

but for me too much fruit does not agree just now :(

[BanzaiBonnie]

17. Serrapeptase

A friend who's studying to be a compounding pharmacist and he told me about this wonderful enzyme years ago.

I won't take anything else for my knee pain. It may take a few days to really start working, but it's worth it. No pain. No side affects.

You can buy it online.

[BanzaiBonnie]

18. Oops. sorry I see you probably can't take serrapeptase

[Shallah Kali]

19. I took something nearly identical Serrazimes that was wonderful

but after months of use it thinned my blood too much and started bugging my touchy stomach. It did wonders for my low back so that if I over do now I don't end up locked in place unable to move until someone literally pries me apart hauls me to the doctor for a powerful muscle relaxant. It is truly wonderful stuff that I highly recomend to anyone without bleeding concerns or extra-sensitive stomach. I took Swanson's Serrizimes as it was the same thing sold under other labels but for a fraction of the cost. Right now it is $5.49 for 60 caps of 20,000 units http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWU325/ItemDetail

[rosesaylavee]

20. I have started bike riding

and it's helped my joints. I say this as they are aching right now after a long bike hike on the trail but I know in a day they will not be. It's my third week so maybe that will go away in a few weeks? Hoping so.

I use Omega 3 and a topical cream of Arnica. If the pain is muscular, it will help almost immediately. Bone pain, not so much. Do you know any Reiki practioners in your area? They may also be able to help.

Blessings on you my friend. Pain is a hard thing to endure long term.

[rosesaylavee]

21. After I wrote this, got up from the computer desk

and walked to my kitchen... I am NOT walking like my mom used to for the first time in a while. So a little achy but lots more mobility.

[Shallah Kali]

28. Hi I am attuned myself as is my Mom but it does not seem to be helping

or maybe I would be have much more pain without this help :shrug: I will make a point of exercising more esp. strength training the muscles around the joints so they support the joint more and see if that helps.

Thank you for the blessings. I hate bringing this up knowing so many who have so much more to deal with but I fear ending up like my biological relatives who are physically disabled from arthritis even with the best that conventional medicine gave them :(

[Desertrose]

23. Check out Bowen therapy...

www.bowtech.com


I would be in big pain all over without my regular Bowen treatment. Really helps my knees, too.


:hug: DR

[LiberalEsto]

24. Have you looked into arnica?

It's good for bumps and bruises, so I wonder if it might help your achy joints. My next door neighbor can't take NSAIDS and uses arnica for pain caused by injuries from a long-ago car accident. Two months ago she got thrown by her horse, breaking her knee in two places and severely bruising a finger. She took arnica both internally, and as a salve applied to the finger. It healed far more quickly than the doctor expected.

Good luck!

[Shallah Kali]

29. haven't tried arnica yet

lent my tube of ointment to my grandmother and keep forgetting to get it back. Can't do internal homeopathic unless I can find a lactose free (and free of other allergens/sensitivities) to try.

[LiberalEsto]

32. I looked up Boiron

Unfortunately the Boiron tables contain lactose.

[marions ghost]

25. Here's my natural way to avoid joint pain....

Instead of pills, an old Chinese remedy is bone soup. You have to cook down the bones and there are certain bones you shouldn't use, but it's easy and works. You can mix this broth with other foods.

At the same time eat lots of vegetables and fresh vegetable juices. Omega 3's, fish oil, yes. Also calcium-magnesium. Cut way down on dairy products--try to use yoghurt primarily.

Exercise and stretch frequently. Also acupuncture can help & is esp recommended for those who are drug sensitive.

Good luck.:)

[Shallah Kali]

30. soup

I am squeemish so I admit at first the idea of bone soup bothered me but I am trying to get over it. My gram still makes chicken soup by putting the whole chicken in the pot and it was always tasty. I have been googling around for recipes. Some people swear by using chicken feet in the soup along with bones saved from other meals. I might be able to get myself try that if I can find some organic ones and give 'em a wirl in the crockpot.....

Thank you for bringing this up :)

[Celebration]

26. I just started sea mussel extract

My husband has neck pain and I got it for him, but decided to try it myself because of off again, on again sacroiliac pain. I'm sick of going to the chiro for this. Not at all scientific but we are both doing pretty well. And, for sure my fingernails seem really, really strong after about a week of this stuff. So I think it is doing something. I am taking NOW brand, I think.

[Metta]

27. Cherry juice concentrate helps me.

I noticed a real difference when I take it regularly and when I don't. We've found a good on line site that sells it for half of what we can get it for in the stores. http://www.herbalremedies.com/blchco16floz.html and massage and chiropractic visits help, too.

[Shallah Kali]

34. Cherry juice is one thing that does not agree with me :(

btw Swanson's Vitamins carries that juice a wee bit cheaper at $5.33, has flat rate shipping and if you sign up for their email sales a couple times a year sends out 5% and 10% off coupon codes - http://www.swansonvitamins.com/DYH003/ItemDetail

Glad the juice works for you and others! Much better for the body than nsaids!!!

[Metta]

38. Thanks for the tip about Swanson's. We'll check them out.

:hi:

[MagickMuffin]

31. Just received Dr. Weil's email about Healthy Joints ;=D

Hopefully there might be something here that might help you. I certainly hope so!


1. Glucosamine and chondroitin. These two compounds help provide the building blocks for substances naturally found in healthy cartilage and appear to relieve pain, improve joint mobility, and slow osteoarthritis-related damage to the joints.

2. SAM-e.This naturally occurring molecule (S-adenosylmethioine) delivers sulfur to the cartilage, which helps build and maintain strong joints.

3. Evening primrose oil. A source of gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) which may help maintain healthy joints by modifying inflammation.

4. Anti-inflammatory herbs. Ginger, holy basil, turmeric, green tea, rosemary, Scutellaria and hu zhang all have naturally occurring anti-inflammatory compounds that act as COX-2 inhibitors. (Zyflamend from New Chapter, which contains these herbs, is highly recommended.)

5. Omega-3 fatty acids.Use varieties that are molecularly distilled from the oil of fish or krill and contain both EPA and DHA, essential fatty acids which have been shown in studies to help maintain bone health and joint flexibility.


:hug:

[Shallah Kali]

35. Holy Tulsi Tea Batman!

I just ordered some organic rose tulsi tea and tulsi capsules along with a chicken based hyaluronic acid which has chondroitin in it to try. I eat basil all the time without a problem so hopefully medicinal amounts of holy basil will agree with me too! Most seem to take Tulsi for mood improvment and anxiety relief so if I get both results all the better and if I only get improved mood maybe I won't care so much when my joints ache ;-P btw link to company website of source of the organic tulsi - Organic India http://www.OrganicIndiaUSA.com also sold at iherb & Lucky Vitamin

I held off trying some SAM-e as I get good results with very small doses of amino acids for moods that I didn't dare try the 200mg or 400mg caps. If the things I got don't work I will look for a smaller dose of SAM-e elsewhere. Glucosamine works wonderfully for many people I know but makes me want to upchuck for most of the day to the point I considered trying to make myself do it to get it over with. Wonderful stuff that helps most people for those it doesn't make want to hurl. Same thing with evening primrose oil. Maybe in this case it was just the brand but I haven't got the nerve up to try another yet.

{{{Shallah, hoping Holy Basil is the answer to her joint's prayers}}}

[Why Syzygy]

37. I just started taking TMG

which is converted to SAMe by the body, but cheaper. It is approved by the FDA for a genetic issue related to elevated homocysteine.

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21871

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21505

[Shallah Kali]

39. I had read that some people take that on it's own or w/l-methionine to get the bod making sam-e

I have it my maybe to try list if I can find a tmg that isn't derived from something that does not currently agree with my digestion (beets).

I hope this works great for you :)

[Why Syzygy]

42. I didn't know about beets..

may have read it in passing. My concentration has improved immensely! I'm also taking liquid B12.
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-B-12-B-Complex-Liquid-2-fl-oz-60-ml/419?at=0
I've been reading several books, and had started to think people don't write the way they used to. I had to read a sentence over and over again, and still could not make sense of it. Last night, reading, it was so simple and easily understood!


Can you take warming herbs, like Cinnamon and ginger?

Ran across this:
http://www.activeherb.com/duhuo/?gclid=CKyF-8vfqJwCFQmbnAodLTNfig

which indicates arthritis caused by "wind and dampness" (Chinese method).
In Ayurveda method, warming herbs are used for that 'type'.


Is this one made from beets?
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-TMG-500-500-mg-120-Easy-Solv-Tablets/141?at=0

[Shallah Kali]

43. Jarrow's site says it's derived from beets

http://www.jarrow.com/searchresult.php?q=tmg

I know the processed end product of refined supplements like these should be very pure and unlikely to contain whatever it is in beets that does what it does but just in case I will hold off attempting this. Maybe I will write Now and LEF and ask what there TMG is taken from...

Aren't B vitamins wonderful? Imagine if the gov. stuck them in the water supply instead of fluoride! I feel sooo much better and think so much better when I take my Bs. I have been using Jarrow's B-Right which has methyl b-12 aka Methylcobalamin iherb swanson iherb[br />
I can't do medicinal amounts of cinnamon or ginger for more than a few days at a time right now. If I get a cut or one of my cats nicks me I notice I bleed more & longer and bruised easier when I used cinnamon for digestive help so I am cautious now about any possibly blood thinning herbs being from a family of bleeders.

It's been nearly a week on the Holy Basil (aka Tulsi aka Ocimum Sanctum aka Ocimum Tenuiflorum) and it might be starting to help the joints. In spite of weather changes the only thing aching enough to wake me at night is the ache in my arm where I broke it as a kid. Hopefully this isn't just a coincidence as I haven't been on it a whole week :P {more on Holy Basil http://www.holy-basil.com for anyone curious)

[Why Syzygy]

44. Tulsi . what a co-ink-i-dink

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x67387#67407

Herbs are pretty powerful. Wouldn't be a bit surprised. For example, one only need to take one dose of corn silk to get the diurectic action. ;)

[Shallah Kali]

46. Tulsi is traditionally used for many things as it is an adoptogen similar to ginseng

If this stuff really kicks in for me I will be looking for some seeds to grow my own plants and hope I don't kill them the way I have destroyed house plants in the past :P

A few more links on Tulsi aka Holy Basil:
http://www.nowfoods.com/HealthLibrary/AdvocacyCenter/M041763.htm
http://myhealth.ucsd.edu/library/healthguide/en-us/Cam/topic.asp?hwid=hn-4597000
http://organicindiausa.com/
http://books.google.com/books?id=sdmXpHlWrZoC&pg=PA259&dq="holy+basil"

[woodsprite]

33. I'm getting almost as much relief as the NSAID they prescribed

by using OTC Tylenol Arthritis strength, and eating 3 tbls ground flax seed daily (spread out 1 tbls at a time - otherwise your gonna end up making your own natural gas). They had me on Voltarin and my BP was consistently 185 over 95 (scary numbers), so I weaned off it and told the doc. I try to take only 2 doses of Tylenol a day. Some days I do need all 3, and some days I can make out OK with a single dose.

For me, the Tyleonol seems to work in about 1 hr, and wear off about an hour before I'm supposed to take another dose. The flax seed takes awhile to build up in your system - for me it was almost 2 wks, but if I go off of it, it feels like it clears my system in about 3 days. Without either one of those, I'm feeling like a 45yo stuck in a 90+ yo body.

I've heard really good things about Zyflamend, but I haven't tried it yet, since what I'm doing seems to be working well enough for now. Glucosamine/Chondroitin seemed to bother me if I didn't get one particular brand AND when I stopped taking it, there was no evidence that it was even helping much other than to screw up my digestive system.

Does anyone you know have any experience with the Zyflamend supplement?

[Shallah Kali]

40. zyflamend - reviewers on iherb love it -link

http://www.iherb.com/New-Chapter-Zyflamend

http://www.newchapter.com/products/zyflamend

I haven't tried it myself. Do you have a healthfood store near by that you might be able to hit up for some samples? Or you can try writing the company as sometimes some will send a few days samples when asked questions about a product ;)

I just started taking one herbs in the zyflamend blend Holy Basil aka Tulsi on it's own a couple of days ago and so far it is effecting my general mood - I find myself smiling even when neck aches like right now - but not joints themselves :P Holy Basil is a cox 2 inhibitor or blocker or something that is supposed to help so I am hoping it will work at a lower price than the Zyflamend.

Flax I haven't tried as most take it to help constipation and as I tend towards the other end of the spectrum things like that tend to be too much of a good thing. I have it on my mental list of things to maybe try someday if one of the other things don't pan out. Tylenol or any nsaid are just brutal on my stomach so I end up hurting worse than before. No kind of glucosamine ever did good things to my digestion so I avoid it :x

[WhiteTara]

36. I went through about 3 years where my hips and shoulders

hurt so bad that I could barely sleep. I went to doctors and chiropractors and herbalists and accupuncturists and they each said and did all kinds of things that didn't help. THen one day, I went to a new doc and low and behold, I was hip deep in menopause. I began some organic (women's international pharmacy) bio identical hormone therapy and viola' I was "healed"

I have no idea where you are in your life cycle, but the hormonal thing really can put the whammy on your life. Good luck.

[Shallah Kali]

41. oh boy. I am so glad you finnally found a treatment that helped you

it is way too soon for me to be there. It is early for my joints to act up for that matter but osteoarthritis and a pile of other autoimmune disorders are on both sides of my genetic family.

[Cleita]

45. I find the chili based ointments and plasters to be effective. The ingredient

is labeled capsaicin. You have to give them a chance to work, lots of rubbing in (heat helps) but once they penetrate they provide good relief and since they are topical, you don't have to ingest them.

[Shallah Kali]

47. Capsicum feels like it burns not just warms as does menthol/minty/bengay type creams

I tried a dab once of my Grandmother's to my nearly instant regret. ye-ow!

[Cleita]

49. Maybe you are sensitive to it. If you wait for it to take effect, it numbs

away the pain and the initial burning sensation. Some of the creams are combined with other herbs as well. I like the plasters myself that you keep in place for several hours.

[Shallah Kali]

50. it burned for at least 1/2 hour after trying it so I am very sensitive

Glad it works great for you and others though.

[Fire Walk With Me]

48. MSM...

http://www.evolutionhealth.com/msm-supplement4.htm

Best luck with whichever treatment appeals to you!

[Flying Dream Blues]

52. Arnica works and I love my topical ibuprofen creme, too.

Another friend says you can also take arnica internally but I haven't ever tried it. If you haven't ever tried eliminating wheat and/or dairy, it might be worth a try to see if that helps. Wheat in particular makes me ache terribly.

Good luck!
xoxo