World's oldest woman dies - here's her chart

[u4ic]

(didn't know birth time, so input noon)

I found it very interesting that Uranus is the only planet that is outside of her t-square. (alabe doesn't use Chiron)

Checked, her Chiron was 13 Leo 38.

[LaurenG]

1. U4ic, can you explain it to us?

Newby style.

What does a T square signify and what does Uranus do in that specific placement?

[Sanity Claws]

2. Seconded

I would also like to know the significance of the chart. Sextiles (which I think are formed here) are usually easy aspects. Would this mean she had an easy life? I know this sounds simplistic. It gives you an idea of how dangerous a little knowledge is.

[cassiepriam]

7. You all are doing beautifully. Keep going.

What are the major aspects in this chart?

What is a sextile?
How many signs apart?
Are there any in this chart, if so where?

[Matariki]

12. where are the sextiles?

all i see is squares and oppositions.

[cassiepriam]

15. Kineta is going to get an A in this exam :)

[Matariki]

17. Hey - I'm an old student of Jeff Green

And he was a great teacher ;-)

[cassiepriam]

22. :) It shows :) I love his book on Pluto PS Everybody is going to get an A in this exam

Just for trying to make a stab at the answers.

[Matariki]

24. thanks - and you're right, everyone is doing great at the analysis

;-) good questions, looking in the right direction. And Cassiepriam, you're leading the way beautifully. :toast:

[cassiepriam]

27. Thanks for your input, will help everyone get the gray cells moving...

And remember challenging your brain is one way to live to 100!

Actually one of the reasons I study astrology:
Makes me work that old gray matter every day!

[cassiepriam]

8. What is a t square and what does it mean? Does anyone know?

And where is Uranus in this chart?
Is it connected to the t square?

[Matariki]

13. Her chart is almost purely a T-square - involving most of the planets.

It's an opposition and with a planet or planets squaring both sides of the opposition - that is 3 areas of the chart at 90 & 180 degree angles.

It has the difficulty of both oppositions and squares yet I've found that it seems to help mitigate that difficulty in some ways. I see oppositions as just that - two energies 'in each other's faces' - a confrontation. Whereas a square is tension but with the added difficulty of not being able to see it 'head on' - it can be more covert or a sense of discomfort without knowing quite why. The T-square can sometimes balance the confrontation between the planets in opposition - the balancing factor would be found in the square. For instance in this chart - the tension between the 3rd and 9th house is balanced by the planets in the 7th. Yet, I see A LOT of tension in this chart. I'd love to see a bio of the woman. I bet she had some interesting conflicts around religion and maybe education - all those planets in a practical virgo in the 9th, including saturn versus the very mystical moon/jupiter conjunction in Pisces in the 3rd - plus that 11th house Uranus. Hmmm....

[cassiepriam]

16. I would love to see a bio of her as well.

She seemed to have managed the stress in her life quite well, didn't seem to hurt her health :)

[Matariki]

21. That's for sure.

I remember reading somewhere that people who are more outwardly focused - helping other people - tend to be happier. That might be part of the way she dealt with her stress (most planets in west hemisphere), plus virgo is a very service oriented sign - in the 9th house I bet she was active in her church.

[cassiepriam]

23. Very good. See the characteristics I posted on longevity below.

A strong spirituality is important, and social contacts.
A sense of humor is helpful as well.

And bingo on the Virgo. That is a big part of what kept her on the planet
so long :)

[rumpel]

3. I have a different question also

I heard about Yod. Yod being sort of like a possibility of death. That was in relation to readings on * and cheney when they were installed. You know, all the indications of death in office.

In any event, I was just looking at it


at http://www.lunarliving.org/articles/nm0119_07.shtml

when you go to the little box on the side, under view planetary configurations and click on the button it gives you the various configurations.

Do I see a Yod in the chart? I think so. I actually think I can see 2 ... ?

fixed typo

on additional edit: Maybe not as it says 2 Inconjunctions and 1 sextile

Sextile - 60°
The sextile tends to have a harmonious effect, depending of course on the planets involved.

I was looking for the degree of injunction and according to one article by Robert Hand:
By the way, if one uses the quincunx as an aspect, it should not be called “inconjunct,” because the phrase “inconjunct aspect” is self-contradictory. An “inconjunct aspect” means “a joining which is not joined.” We should always call it the quincunx. I am not saying it does not join two planets, but it should be called “quincunx.”

Which would mean
Quincunx or Inconjunct - 150°, neutral

[cassiepriam]

9. A yod is not a symbol of death.

It is a very special karmic aspect, a difficult one, but considered the finger of God in that it is a soul purpose that must be activated in this lifetime.

(I have quite a few in my chart and I am planning to live to about a 100!)

What are the aspects that make up a yod?
Inconjunct or quincux on two sides, sextile connecting them.

And inconjunct/quincux is how many signs apart?
A sextile is how many signs apart?

Does this chart have a yod?

It is really important that you learn to count the signs to determine the aspects.
It is really easy once you get the hang of it.

[Cleita]

4. Yes, for those of us who can only see heiroglyphics

on those charts a brief interpretation would be welcome. :)

[cassiepriam]

5. I am very very impressed by all the intelligent questions!

You all have been doing your homework! :)

[cassiepriam]

6. We could use this as a bit of a lesson.

Everyone look and see where her plants are located.
What house and sign?

The sun is a circle with a dot in it. Where is it?
Where is her moon, the glyph is a little slice of a moon.
And what else is in that house? What is the sign and house?

Keep going.

I will look at it some more, but I already see a few things
that tell us some things.

What house is the house of death?
And what is the sign on the cusp?
And what is one of the things that sign can mean?

And what is the house of health and physical issues?
And what is in that house?
And what is the sign on the cusp?
What might that mean?

What houses and planets might indicate a long life?
You don't have to be right, I just want to use your heads and think :)

Then when you are done you can goggle around and see what aspects, planetary placements might indicate a long life...
Does she have any of these placements or aspects?

Any astrologers out there, what indicators do you look for in terms of long life?

[u4ic]

32. I think Sun, Saturn and Jupiter

are related to lifespan...Mars would indicate vitality, but isn't necessarily indicative of a long life.

1st house is physical body, 4th house is also about old age, and conditions at that time, 6th is health, 8th is related to death, though I think it might relate more to the manner of death. 12th could indicate hidden health problems.

[cassiepriam]

35. How about the other planets? What might they signify?

Uranus, sudden death?
Mars an aggressive death, etc?

Again we are getting more into manner of death, but seems related to time of death as well.

Cancer 8h could certainly give the native a peaceful death at home, surrounded
by loved ones.

I think we would want to look at the sun and aspects to the sun. And the houses you mention. I would look at positive aspects between the sun and Saturn?

BTW Class, what I am trying to avoid is cookbook astrology. Where you are just given a cheat sheet of aspects and what they mean. And there is no understanding of why those aspects mean what they do. I am hoping that you can begin to see that it is not that cut and dried. And requires some thinking.

Astrology consists of highly symbolic codes, and it takes a bit of effort to sort it all out.

[Matariki]

39. At least in Vedic astrology 8th house is an indicator of longevity

I wouldn't be surprised if a rectified chart put one of those planetary groups in the 8th - moon/jupiter or sun/saturn.

[u4ic]

41. Thanks

I know very little about Vedic astrology.

[Matariki]

42. thank you - this was a fun thread :-)

[cassiepriam]

44. Vedics use a different system to cast a horoscope and all your houses

are different from a western chart.

But yes I thought the same thing. Vedics are very into fatalistic predictions.
And can tell you exactly when you are going to die and how. :(

Actually the vedics charts creep me out a bit :(

And I philosophically disagree with them. I believe free will
is the strongest life determinant. They believe just the opposite.

[Matariki]

51. Actually - the planets are usually in the same houses

it's the signs that are different. So if you were born with Aries rising and Sun in Leo in the 5th house - in Vedic or Sidereal Astrology you would have Pisces rising and Sun in Cancer in the 5th house. Vedic uses the actual location of the constellations - adjusted for the progression of the equinoxes. Western astrology uses a system that's based on where the constellations were about 3000 years ago. The focus in Vedic astrology is more heavily on house placement than sign.

Vedic astrology is very old - there are lots of texts written a long time ago and yes some seem fatalistic. That's true of old western astrology as well though. I think people in general used to be more fatalistic than they are now. It's only recent, post Jung, western astrology that has shifted it's focus to become more psychological. And that, I think, has been a valuable development.

And actually, it's important to mention that Vedic astrology has a very well developed system for countering difficulties in the chart - different cures one would do to mitigate difficult aspects or house placements or difficult upcoming transits. These 'cures' can be a talisman such as a planetary stone, a mantra to repeat, an act of charity to preform, and so forth. In many ways this seems MORE positive and LESS fatalistic than western astrology - for every problem there's a cure - you don't find that in Western Astrology. So the system has a built in answer to the fate and freewill question. If you see something bad coming, you make a planetary talisman and avoid the predicted difficulty. I actually like that quite a bit.

[cassiepriam]

53. When I had my vedic horoscope cast it bumped all my planets into different houses.

What type Vedic system are you referencing Kineta?
I think there are several types of Indian systems?

Yes I agree that there are "cures" for the negative findgs in the chart.
I have several problems with the so called cures.

From what I have read the cures can be quite onerous, like making a very long and crueling pilgrimage to a far away shrine. And then the astrologer says
it is not a certain thing, it is in the hands of the gods anyway.

And more importantly it is still not free will. These "cures" strike me as only peace offerings to appease the gods kind of thing, superstitious type rituals rather than taking responsibility and overcoming the problems or learning.
There is not a emphasis on free will, learning and growing and evolving as a soul.
Seems to be an emphasis on the torturing aspects of the karmic wheel, that we have little power to change except with superstitious ritual. It is a child or victim type stance in my mind. More like the old testiment.

That said I do like the vedics for a number of things. Their complex analysis of the nodal axis and their belief that astrologers are really priests and the two are intertwined and cannot be separated. But I reject quite a bit of the vedic system philosophically. But then I do the same thing with the western system which is too self focused and typically rejects a spiritual componet and tends to be about feeling good. And the vedics are about feeling bad!

So I end up pissing off everybody when I talk about the philosophical and spiritual underpinnings of astrology.

[Matariki]

55. I said 'usually' in the same house for this reason:

The wheel of the zodiac has progressed about 24 or so degrees from what Western astrology uses - not a full sign yet. So if your planets are in the later part of a sign they'll still be in that sign in Vedic - i.e. 28 degrees Libra in Western will be about 4 degrees Libra Sidereal. Then also Vedic uses an equal house arrangement - So if you have 15 degrees Pisces rising - Pisces will be your ascendant and occupy the whole first house - and none of the 12th as it would in Western. If your rising sign changes because it's in an earlier degree, then any planets in late degrees will be in a different house than your western chart. Does that make sense?

The different systems I think you are referring to are the northern & southern chart styles - just two different ways of drawing the chart. Doesn't affect the data. And like I said, Vedic astrology is extremely old and there are many, many written texts on the subject - unlike in the west where there was so much suppression and book burning by the church. Naturally many of these texts contradict each other and some are more superstitious than others.

I couldn't agree with you more about the issue of free will. However I find that equally true with traditional Western astrology as I do with Vedic - when it comes to using astrology as prediction. Personally, I avoid predictive astrology completely for that very reason - except maybe world events, that's a fascinating use of predictive astrology. Like you, I just don't think that fatalistically. I do find reading a Vedic chart very useful in finding one's life purpose, talents, weaknesses, 'issues', etc. Just as western astrology is useful for those things. Both systems are simply a tool - how well it works depends on who's using it.

The Vedic astrologers I know use gemstones and mantras as cures, not complicated pilgrimages or things like feeding milk to snakes on wednesdays(really!) as some old texts suggest. Whether one thinks mantras and gemstones are superstitious depends on what you think about the idea that things can affect each other because they vibrate with the same energy. For instance I wear a moonstone to strengthen my 8th house moon - it seems to have made me calmer and more optimistic, but it could just be suggestion. Mantras & talismans, this all gets into the realm of magick - so it depends what you think about that.

One cure that I find interesting on a psychological level is charity work. Say for example a person has a debilitated or badly aspected Venus. One would expect this person to have difficulty with women and relationships. Based on traditional cures this person could donate to a woman's shelter or organization that helps women - or better yet do volunteer work at one of those places. If the Venus debilitation is an indication of karmic, past life difficulties with women - which would be the Vedic view - you could see how volunteering to work with disadvantaged women could clean up that karma and help the person heal their troubled relationship with women?


whew - sorry about the long post. I find this topic interesting.

[cassiepriam]

57. Vedic etc

No not chart styles. In the past year I did some work with some Hindu astrologers who live and work in India and I was lead to believe that there are a number of different types in actual practice. It is very complex and I do not pretend to understand it much beyond the very basic stuff.

Funny to say, I was taken aback as the Hindu astrologers were intrigued with how I practice karmic astrology and kept asking me to give them readings! I was astounded as I had thought they were supposed to be the karmic holy grail! But they aren’t really. They do mostly predictive work on a practical level, marriage, children, jobs that kind of thing. I was pretty intimidated doing readings for professional Vedic astrologers I can tell you. And their expectations were odd. You can give them 10 pages of a karmic reading and the only thing they want to know is when exactly they will meet their wife and what will she look like!

And no I don’t mean ancient vedic cure practices are unacceptable. I mean the modern ones. If you read for example A Thousand Suns: Designing Your Future with Vedic Astrology by Linda Johnson an American Vedic astrologer who wrote this book only 2 yrs ago, she had examples of the modern cures which I was horrified to read. :(

And I love crystals and work with them all the time. I believe in their energy. I just object to their use in a superstitious way to over come issues in the natal chart.

Kind of like when I was a practicing Catholic and all you have to do to negate a sin is say a few Our Fathers. Doesn’t seem right to me.

Our soul purpose is to learn and grow in this lifetime. To evolve. And to use our free will, intelligence and faith to do so. To make profound changes in our thinking, feeling and behaving system if necessary. Not let the crystals or talisman do it for us.

It is a subtle difference I know, but really reflects my spiritual belief about why we are here.

BTW Kineta this is a very interesting discussion. We seemed to have migrated away from the longevity chart but it does give others a sense of how astrologers talk shop!

[Matariki]

59. Heh - isn't that what MOST people want to know?

when will they marry? when will they be rich? *sigh*

I've never heard of Linda Johnson, and I'll take your word on it and avoid her. Because some american woman made up and published crazy 'modern cures' doesn't invalidate all of Vedic astrology though!

Our experiences have obviously differed and led us to different conclusions. I've had readings from 4 professional astrologers in my life - 3 western and 1 vedic. All three western astrologers' readings were fuzzy and far more inaccurate than accurate. The Vedic astrologer - Dennis Flaherty actually, who is quite well known, did a tremendous reading. It was spot on and he gave me very good, solid advice regarding my spiritual life - how to go about making changes I needed to make. He also avoided predictions, btw, and focused on more 'karmic' and spiritual issues.

Again I'll say, both systems are simply tools. And tools are only as good as the person using them.

I agree with you whole heartedly that simply thinking you can put on a gemstone and have all your problems magically solved is nothing more than superstition. But look at it this way - as with magick you're doing something that states your intention to change. You charge the gemstone or talisman with that intent - represented by the planetary energy - and it helps to attract events and experiences that will lead to the desired change. I believe that Vedic texts state that reciting mantras are the preferred cure - this obviously entails spiritual work. Gemstones are proscribed for people who are unable or unwilling to do that sort of spiritual work - but still, there are rituals to be observed in preparing the gemstone so the work still gets done. The cynic in me also suspects that some astrologers proscribe gemstones because they are more lucrative than mantras for the astrologer. Finally, charity work is on the list - and I think that can help bring about change for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

[cassiepriam]

62. Oh heavens, I cannot dis Indian Astrology too much. It has existed for 8000 yrs!

I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water!

And they are amazingly accurate I know.
That is what creeps me out :(.

I do not want to know exactly when and how I will die.
And when bad things will happen to me.
Ignorance is bliss :)

But I know that both western and Hindu astrology are very significant and valuable. And there are many good things about them. It is just not the kind of astrology I want to practice. :(

But I have taken the good from both sides and incorporated them into my work.

[Matariki]

64. I would think that an astrologer who predicts a client's death is very unethical

even if they're right.

I wonder about being able to predict time of death though. It really raises a lot of interesting philosophical questions. Like whether we have 'an alloted time' here on earth. I guess the whole study of astrology as a predictive art raises those questions about whether we're caught in the clockworks of the universe, or whether we're free.

I'm with you - I'd rather not know. It would be hard to tell what's accurate prediction and what happened simply because it was suggested. Even when I read tarot I treat it more as problem solving and best course of action rather than concrete predictions. Well sometimes - I've answered questions whether someone would get a specific job or not, things like that, but never blanket predictions that some bad event was going to happen. I'm definitely more in the free will camp. Although I think our tendencies can lead us down certain paths that can sometimes be painfully predictable...

[cassiepriam]

65. Fate vs free will

Yes it raises the big question of fate vs free will.

Yes of course once you tell someone they are fated to die at a certain time and place, have they unconsciously set themselves up to die at that time?

Apparently in India there are ancient astrology records which were created by Vedic astrologers thousands of yrs ago ago. They are claimed to contain the horoscopes and life information of every soul who ever lived and will live until earth no longer exists. The records are huge
and they say you can go and just give your birth info and the keepers of the records will go back into some dusty old room and come back with a scrap of paper and tell you your name, occupation, marriage, children and death time, place and cause. All created thousands of years ago by astrologers using just the stars in the sky and their advanced mathematics to determine the horoscopes of yet to be born humans. They are said to contain even American births, a country not in known existence then. Using ancient words that sound like the word America when spoken!

If there is no free will then it raises the question of what is the purpose of life and incarnation on this planet. If everything has been decided then why do we even come back life after life? Perhaps just to feel the feelings and understand it all on a personal level? Or to burn off karmic debt life after life? The karmic paradox is that while we are here to burn off debt, we keep incurring new debt instead or in addition. Seems to be a self perpetuating cycle of debt :(.

Also I wonder too if part of what is muddying up the water is that our notion of time is just an artifact of our limited human existence. Time is really not linear. Past, present and future are occurring simultaneously according to some physicist. Perhaps even in different dimensions at the same time. My point here is that what I am doing now is being recored in the past, present and future. So just because something has been recorded about my future doesn't necessarily mean it was fated. Just that time is fluid and my free will actions in the future have already been recorded somewhere.

OK now I am confusing myself.

Good discussion.

[cassiepriam]

10. Trying to get astro.com chart posted here, a bit bigger and with Chiron.

Can't seem to get it up here...

DREAM can you help????????

I followed the directions on the HTML lookup table but it doesn't seem to work!!

The astro is easier to read I think for those of us who cannot see tiny tiny print anymore :(

Also Dream, might be interesting to get the par fortune on the chart as well...

Chiron and PF in additon to NN.

[I Have A Dream]

25. Done! See post #19 below. n/t

[Matariki]

11. cool, her sun is at the exact degree AND minute of virgo as mine

okay, apart from selfish self reference that has nothing to do with nothing, look at that sun, venus, saturn conjunction in the 10th house. famous for being old? looks that way.

and those squares - no doubt a bit of a tough life. Imagine what her spouse(s?) must have been like - Pluto conjunct Neptune in Gemini in the 7th. An alcoholic and moody? delusional? control freak? or maybe a mystic? but squaring her mars - no doubt it was rocky.

on edit - oh, oops that stellium is in the 9th isn't it? well, her sun is approaching the MC - so what I said above about famous for being old still might hold true a bit. Also it puts most (all?) of her planets in the west side of the chart, meaning that the focus of her life was primarily on others - especially that difficult husband of hers...

[cassiepriam]

20. Kineta says there is a stellium? Does anyone know what that is?

Why would it be important in a chart?
Where is the stellium located in this chart? In what house?
What sign?

What might that signify?

Does anyone have a stellium in their own natal chart??

Why does Kineta look to the 7th house to see what hubby might have been like?
Why does she suspect alcoholism and moodiness on his part?

[u4ic]

33. A stellium is 3 or more planets

in a house. I've read the case for and not necessarily all planets being conjunct.

If the latter, I have a stellium in my 5th (Sun, Mercury and Venus).

Concentrated energy in that house, what the house represents becomes very important to the native. For example, the 5th would relate to creativity/expression, self empowerment/esteem, children, romantic love.

[cassiepriam]

36. yes, there is some disagreement about what constitutes a stellium.

All planets in the same house?
same sign? degrees apart etc.

Some astrologers are very strict about these issues and definitions.
A planet one degree out of orb is discounted for example.
Others are a bit more relaxed about the technical end of things.

If you go to the major astrology forums they spend a great deal of time
arguing about the technical parts of astrology. The micro level if you will.

In my work I am of course interested in being technically correct and following
the norms and mores of the astrology field. However karmic work is a bit more relaxed and more focused on the larger issues and macro end of things. We are looking at the chart in a way that is different from other folks.

But neither side is right or wrong. Astrology is a very diverse field and it depends upon what kind of astrology you practice and what you are trying to do with
the chart information. Just like your family doctor is going to read your lab report differently in some ways than a specialist would.

BTW I have a stellium too. Sun, moon, mercury, NN in Pisces. All 6h except moon on 7h cusp. 6th house is health, service, work. I bring a lot of energy and resources to my work, which is very service oriented. And since it is also my North Node, it is my soul purpose and one of the reasons for this incarnation.

U4ic is going to have a lot of very creative energy going for her in that 5h stellium. And she is going to be able to communicate her creativity well. And maybe very interesting love affairs :)

How many others here have a stellium??

[u4ic]

37. My sun's in Virgo

The Mercury and Venus are conjunct in Leo. Leo is on the 5th cusp, as well.


The emphasis on 'maybe' with those love affairs. :eyes: :P

I have 3 years of a BFA in theatre. Still feel a need to perform in some way, though now it's relegated to doing some services at my UU congregation.



Thanks, cassie, this is wonderful. Originally I was curious as to what the pros on the board had to say about her chart, and even though it's turned into something quite different, it's a great learning opportunity for so many of us. :-)

[cassiepriam]

43. With Leo involved you will

have a strong inner child. And this is the house where you will play and get in touch with that inner child, and develop a sense of wonder! Acting is a perfect vehicle for you! Maybe you can meet a handsome actor and get going on all tha 5h energy :)

Hope I didn't usurp the pros, I hope they chime in soon!
I just thought it was a great opportunity to use this as a learning opportunity!

And pros feel free to argue with me or correct me....The technical end of things is not my forte. I get the conceptual and theoretical part just fine, but the tech end is pretty complicated!

[I Have A Dream]

38. I have a stellium in Capricorn in the 3rd house.

Sun, Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter.

I also have NN, Pluto, Midheaven and Uranus in the 10th house. However, Uranus and Midheaven are in Leo while NN and Pluto are in Virgo. Would this constitute a stellium in karmic astrology? First of all, would it because it's the Midheaven that is involved, and secondly because two different signs are involved even though they're all in the same house?

I seem to recall there being some controversy as to whether 3 or 4 "planets" were required for a stellium. Do you personally consider 3 or 4 to be required to constitute a stellum?

What about the lesser things like the asteroids? I know that you consider Chiron to be really important in karmic astrology. Can the asteroids be considered part of a stellium?

Thanks!

[cassiepriam]

45. Lots of stelliums and kites in this crowd :)

So much good energy!

Ah now we get into the technical discussions like the big astro boards! :)

First, stelliums consist of planets so you would not include the MC or the other angles of the chart. And technically you would not include the nodes as they are not planets. (Can you recall what a node is?)

The fact that the stellium is on an angle is quite important in interpretation but not in determining whether or not it is a stellium.

As to what technically constitutes a stellium, this is the controversy part!

Some say it is three or more planets which form a series of conjunctions. Some say it has to be 4 planets. Some say it is 3 or more in the same house or same sign, but doesn't have to be conjunct. Some say the planets have to be in the same house or in the same sign to be a stellium. And conjunct. So there are some who define it very strictly, others a bit more loosely.

And then people argue about aspects to a stellium, if a planet aspects one part of a stellium does it aspect all the planets in the stellium? Aspect by association?

These are all the arguments the traditional western astrologers have among themselves.

Then when I enter the argument all hell breaks loose! I see things a bit differently and may scandalize the traditional folks :(

Will post more in a bit about how karmic folks might look at it...

[cassiepriam]

47. Stelliums, planets, asteroids, Chiron,

OK.

You ask if asteroids can be considered part of a stellium.

If you go back and look at the technical definition of a stellium you will
see that there is agreement about it being 3 or more PLANETS grouped together in some fashion.

Are asteroids planets?
Are the angles (Asc, Des, MC, IC) planets?
Are the nodes planets?
Is chiron a planet?

The answer is no to all of these questions. So technically they are not to be used
as criteria to determine the presence of a stellium but they certainly would
be included in the interpretation as their placement in the stellium is significant.

(Might be a good time to go look up some info, from an astronomy point of view what is Chiron? What are the nodes? you can see how astronomy is a crucial part of astrology.)

[cassiepriam]

48. Karmic astrology

I hate to get off on a tangent since karmic astrology is a new field in western astrology with few practitioners. And it looks at the natal chart in a way that is different is some ways from classically trained astrologers.
I don't want to confuse everyone since we are tying to learn the basics
of astrology in a typically classic tradition.

There are many specialty areas in astrology and like any diverse field each
area does things a bit differently as they have different purposes. So no one is right or wrong. All are valuable.

Karmic astrology is looking at past life issues. However that is not my real interest, I am really more into soul or spiritual astrology, as I am not really concerned about past lives per se, I am focused on soul purpose and spiritual issues and past lives are just a vehicle to determine that. So you can see that even in the area of karmic work I have gone into a sub sub specialty :)

That is why I do not even consider myself an astrologer. I am focused on spiritual and soul growth and consider astrology just one way to explore that. And I had to learn the language of astrology to break the code of the natal chart. Like a minister who learns Hebrew to read the bible in its original form. Or like a physician who has to know how to interpret lab reports to help the patient. But I enjoy the astrology part of it, and so can get into the whole technical and classic end of it for fun.

[cassiepriam]

49. Nodes, Chiron in karmic work

While the nodes and chiron are not planets and cannot be used
technically to determine a stellium, in karmic work they are of
extreme significance. And because of that we would certainly
be very interested in any grouping of which they are a part.

The nodes are probably the most important part of the natal chart
in karmic work. Chiron up there in importance.

And I do not use asteroids in my work at all so I cannot comment on them.
Not because they are not important, but they just are not part of what I do.

And in karmic work we are not going to be really strict about the technical ends
of things. We are looking at subtleties in the chart as well as general trends.
Looking at it more in a macro, not micro way. More global, not minutia. And we are more interested in inner to outer planetary placements. (do you know what an inner planet is? an outer planet?)

I look at groupings of planets as powerhouses of energy in the chart for example and am interested in them whether they fit into the strict definition of a stellium or not. And if they involve the nodes, Chiron or inner to outer aspects then these are very important karmically and we are going to be even more lenient in the technicalities.

Does this make sense??

[cassiepriam]

50. Oh an in karmic work more interested in 2, 6, 8 12 houses. And of course in Pluto. nt

[Matariki]

40. raises hand - i have two

tight pluto, mercury, venus in 6th house virgo along with sun. and close moon, jupiter, neptune in 8th

[cassiepriam]

46. Nice combination.

Were is your NN?

You have health issues and a strong desire to be of service in a metaphysical way?

[Matariki]

52. no health issues (so far so good)

I have mars trine my 6th house sun - seems to have given me a very strong constitution. and yes to the desire to be of service 'in a metaphysical way' - I do a lot of tarot readings for people and some other things of that nature. truthfully that 6th house stellium has played out in some very interesting and if i might add, kinky ways. think venus conjunct pluto in the house of service and it'll be obvious :evilgrin:

also these two stelliums make a yod with my 0 degree aries rising. i know it must mean something but i've never quite figured it out. any insight?

oh oops - meant to add - north node in 7th house Libra.

[cassiepriam]

54. 6h house kinky?? :) Do tell. I have a 6h stellium too and I must have missed kinky :(

Send me your birth data Kineta, or chart, I need to see it to tell you.
Have to have the visual in front of me!

A yod is going to be very karmic and a finger of fate, meaning something
you must do in this life. It will not be easy due to the tension of the inconjunct
but once you master it the tension eases.

[Matariki]

56. well the venus/pluto conjunct in the 6th house of service

not 6th house per se. Venus/Pluto contacts tend to be rather sexual. If I recall though - Jeff Green says that inconjuncts can indicate sexual 'deviations' like S&M. But he takes such an uninformed and disparaging view of BDSM that I ignore what he has to say on that topic.

[cassiepriam]

58. Oh I thought you meant 6h was kinky! Yes anything to do with Pluto

can be kinky and offbeat. And yes I understand what you mean about the Pluto/Venus conjunct.

I think the inconjuncts have been very misunderstood by most everyone. Geesh, now they are SM, god lord. What next?

[Matariki]

60. You know, I adored Jeff Green's classes

and his work - but I took issue with two things about him. He seemed to have an unhealthy interest in playing 'spot the perversion' in people's charts and he had/has a very outmoded and prejudiced attitude toward SM.

But otherwise it was a privilege to have studied with him. I have a notebook full of notes and class materials that are invaluable. Stuff he's never published that I know of. One of the classes was on 'minor' aspects, quintiles, septiles, noviles, the works - with different analysis for both approaching and separating aspects. I'll dig up the stuff he wrote on inconjuncts. You've got me interested now...

[cassiepriam]

61. Interesting, everyone has their foibles it would seem :(

Yes do look up his material on the inconjuncts.
That would be interesting. I think. :(

[cassiepriam]

63. you do not consider yourself a Pisces Asc?

[cassiepriam]

14. How to live to be a 100 yrs old:

More and more people are living to 100.
They are called Generation C.
They share some characteristics and you can learn from them:

1. Don't smoke
2. Moderate use of alcohol
3. Keep weight steady
4. Eat fewer calories
5. Eat fruits and vegetables
6. Take Vitamins
7. Exercise regularly
8. Sleep well
9. Challenge your mind
10. Stay positive in attitude
11. Don't let stress get to you.
12. Stay friendly and social

From Baltimore Aging Study, Honolulu Aging Study et al

[Matariki]

18. you forgot sex

good sex. really, i think that's supposed to be on this list...

[cassiepriam]

26. Didn't see that variable on the research protocols I looked at :)

But maybe it is on some that I have not seen.

They do reference in some studies happy marriages as a variable linked
to longevity. Sexual functioning would be a part of that variable.

[I Have A Dream]

19. *** HERE'S THE CHART THAT CASSIE WANTED POSTED ***

[cassiepriam]

28. Thanks Dream!! nt

[Matariki]

29. Warning: spoiler - Julie Winnifred Bertrand's (condensed) bio

when I looked at the chart, I didn't notice that the time was unknown & noon used instead - kind of changes which areas of life those planets are affecting. She was unmarried so nix what I said about her spouse.

<snip>

The designation made her an instant celebrity. Bertrand's niece, Elaine Sauciere, said the fame her aunt acquired late in life was really quite "unbelievable."

"This little woman sold clothes at a department store in Coaticook," said Sauciere, 70.

A British film crew had just requested an interview with Bertrand for a documentary on people who live long lives.

Andre Bertrand said his aunt never had a problem saying no _ and did so to dozens of journalists, filmmakers and medical researchers intent on discovering her secret to long life.

"She was tough, feisty and self-sufficient," Bertrand said.

The eldest of six children, Bertrand never married.

She had her suitors, Sauciere said, adding it was difficult to say how close she may have been to Louis St. Laurent, a young lawyer who went on to become prime minister.

"She was friends with his sister and I think she was sweet on him, but how serious it was, I don't know," Sauciere told the Gazette.

[cassiepriam]

30. U4ic, this is an estimated time of birth?

Class:

In many cases the astrologer does not have the accurate time of birth.
Can you think why this might be?
Why might the birth time for Ms Bertrand be unavailable?

In those cases the astrologer will do an estimated time.
Some like sunrise charts, some like noon.

What are the pros and cons of doing a chart this way?

How would different birth times on the day she was born
change her natal chart? Keep it the same?
Would she still have the sun sign?
What else would be the same?
Different?

You can go to astro.com or astrolab and play with the time of birth
thru out the day of Ms Bertrand's birth and see how the chart changes.
And stays the same.

[u4ic]

31. Yes, it's an estimated time of birth

If I don't know what it is, I use noon just because it's halfway through the day. The only planet that incorrect would make a significant difference with is the Moon, because it travels so fast. Obviously, the houses as well. (edit: I'm just a hobbyist and still at the basics, not a professional)

Sunrise chart puts the sun on the ASC. Either way, you still don't have the exact ASC. One could look to major events in her life to rectify the chart.

As she was born in 1891 - not in a hospital, it's unlikely her exact time of birth would be noted. Whether it was morning, noon or evening could help to narrow it down somewhat.

As I mentioned, the ASC and the house cusps wouldn't be exact. The minutes of planets would/might change, unlikely the degree would be (except the Moon) unless a planet is in the last degree of a sign (as was my case; My Mars is 0 Leo 16, earlier that day would have been 29 Cancer).

[cassiepriam]

34. Thank you u4ic. This is such a good info for the "class."

What u4ic is saying is important information.

Astrologers need the exact time of birth for the natal chart to be
accurate, generally obtained from the birth certificate. The problem arises when there is no birth certificate, such as the case of home deliveries of a child. Typical of those born before WWII.

Astrologers who cast charts of famous people long since dead may read biographies of the person in hopes of getting some clues as to time of day the birth occurred. Perhaps the niece of Ms Bertrand would have some inkling of a family story about the time of day her aunt was born.

But at any rate, in such cases an estimated time of birth is used. Often noon time.

It is also possible to do something called a chart rectification. This requires an very skilled astrologer who can take a look at the major events in a person's life and try to figure out the most accurate birth time based upon these events.

For example, we know that Virgo Ascendants tend to look and act younger than their chronological age. So we could try casting the horoscope with a birth time that gives a Virgo Asc and see if everything else fits, i.e. her single status (look at 7h and aspects etc).

Also u4ic's comments about what would change or not is important. Some planets move fast, others move slow. Slow moving planets are not going to change their position much in a chart, no matter what the time of birth on a given day. The moon moves faster and would change.

The houses would be the most affected by the birth time. And then the Asc, IC, MC, DES. And as you recall this info is telling us where the planet energy is most likely to manifest.