Astronomers declare Pluto no longer a planet

[Sweet Freedom]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060824/ap_on_sc/planet_mutiny

<snip>
Leading astronomers approved historic new planet guidelines Thursday — downsizing Earth's neighborhood from nine principal heavenly bodies to eight by demoting distant Pluto.
</snip>

[LaurenG]

1. I was just about to post this

I wonder what difference this will make in the astrological world?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14489259

[hlthe2b]

3. I wonder this too... Can some of our experienced posters comment?

...either your impressions on the impact or what you are reading from other astrology sources?

[Chemical Bill]

12. I don't care what they say.

I use asteroids and planets, and I'm keeping Pluto. Let them argue about the definition of "planet" all they want.

Bill

[carolinayellowdog]

2. From nine to twelve to eight in a week

My head is spinning! No sooner had I looked up Ceres and "Xena" in the epheremis to put them in my chart because they were now planets, than the astronomers took them back and demoted Pluto in the bargain!

Ceres turns out to have a lot of aspects in my natal chart so I'm interested in its meaning regardless.

[Love Bug]

4. Saturn's gonna conjunct my Natal Pluto soon. Does that mean

I'm off the hook? :D

[Chemical Bill]

11. That just means...

that Saturn is going to transit that very important empty spot in your chart. ;-)

Bill

[Cerridwen]

5. "A rose by any other name..."

Keeps running through my head.

Pluto didn't go any where...it's still following its path making its presence known as it has since before it was discovered and as it will now it's known as a dwarf planet.

Just as erasing women's voices from history did not make women disappear, I doubt Pluto will now disappear off our charts. Though it may be given a less prominent place on a chart due to its reduced status; as has been the case with women; that would be due more to an astrologer's perception of its eminence or lack thereof rather than a lessened impact of its existence.

note: I am not an astrologer; your mileage may vary.

[DemExpat]

7. That was my impression when I read this news...

Pluto didn't go any where...it's still following its path making its presence known as it has since before it was discovered and as it will now it's known as a dwarf planet.


I love Science and have great interest in it, but, man, every week something contradictory comes out and is stated as FACT....well,.....I don't see reality as labelled by scientists, who, after all, are merely human! I am infinitely curious about scientific thought and discovery, but don't take their authoritative statements as the Truth.
:D

DemEx

[stellanoir]

6. Those astronomers are gonna totally

"rot in hell for doing that."

Just Kidding. . .

I don't even believe in hell aside from certain most unfortunate pockets on the surface of this planet.*

But more seriously. . .demoting the source of deeply intense death and rebirth (aka transformational) experiences and obsessions may just create more graceful, gentle and less onerous transitions for each and every one of us.

I hope I hope I hope :)

*"Farewell happy fields where joy forwever dwells. Hail sorrows and thou profoundest hell. Yet the mind is its own place and can make a hell of a heaven, and a heaven of a hell. . . "

on edit- I just heard from the radio that Pluto is now officially catagorized as a "dwarf planet."

May all of our trials and travails now miraculously be totally dwarfed by our profound happiness, wisdom, and joy.

POOF !!!

on secondary edit- NEWSFLASH: This is actually great news on both the nuclear proliferation and global consciousness fronts. The discovery of Pluto was roughly synchronous with the birth of the atom bomb and the rise of Hitler.

Pluto is physically 1/3 of the size of our Moon. We've long been foolishly threatened by an blob of ice that is just a little erratic fearful bully (fear of death) that is a mere fraction of our far more influential feminine luminary (source of our emotional clarity).

I've long said that Neptune is more often than not, our outermost planet due to the timing and proportion of Pluto's eliptical orbit.

The illusion that the more destructive Plutonian power (really the imbalanced predominant model for power for eons on this sphere) being the ticket to ultimate transcendance is a complete and total ruse when true spiritualism ideally symbolized by Neptune's more lofty vibrations really may in fact be.

Upon some reflection, I'm really hopeful about this development

This may ulltimately empower our collective spiritual humanism and divinely inspired artistry, as opposed to the lie of this g-d awful rampantly heinous and intractable fundamentalism and abuse of power we've been suffering under for most of our recorded history.

Maybe GET HAPPY FOLKS !!! and consider that our load may have just become considerably lightened.

Woohoo !!!

[LaurenG]

8. That is exactly what I'd hoped to hear

Only because I've been reading quite a bit about Pluto and it's effects. I would love an easier transition.

[autorank]

9. Now that's interesting!

So the planet's demise really indicates a symbolic demise of the need to endure the problems previosuly associated...very deep...well, too deep for me but I like it:)

[stellanoir]

10. Okay then you can put your head safely south of the border again

if it's indeed truly too-o-o deep for you.

I don't buy that line at all though.

Or perchance you could go and confer with the all knowing Guido and Lenny some more. I hear that the former is especially good around the house. Not sure about the latter though. He's down right scary.

Kidding of course.

Seriously, though still extremely ephemeral, I truly feel that this reclassification may indeed constitute is a REAL AND LASTING planetary and symbolic sea change bigger in terms of the collective global consciousness, than either the dreadful tsunami or oh so woesome Katrina. That's not meant to minimize anyone's suffering, loss, or hardships resulting from those g-d awful disasters in any way shape or form either.

I'm just trying to look at the big picture here and I foolishly feel as though I've been contemplating appropriate use and abuse of power since Lemeuria's fall. Maybe I'm just more than a bit slow. :)

Aside from a few fleeting periods of peace and prosperity, our recorded history has truly sucked the life force from far too many true souls for far, far, far, too long.

Pluto's discovery, validation, and inflation, fleetingly brought the vacuity and profound fallacy of our destructively torturous urges to achieve ultimate dominance into acute and blindingly disturbing focus. As if. . .violence could ever result in anything but MORE violence.

For a while, the threat of mutually assured destruction kept a tentative and somewhat volatile peace. It was akin to staring the cobra in the face. Aaaand as if. . . there really could be such conditions or circumstances on a real or lasting peace.

I'm not pretending or purporting for a nanosecond that Pluto is all negative and Neptune is all nicey, nicey.

All planets, be they "classical" or "dwarfed," have healthy and unhealthy manifestations for sure, for sure. That's where free will enters in on this sphere.

It's hardly the "demise" of Plutonian influence either. It's now officially been "dwarfed." Pluto's healthy manifestation is a centered form of self mastery and empowerment. It is best expressed in its understatment, not in its strutting or bullying. It's temporary inflation has resulted in something else that has been probably purgative in the much grander scheme of things.

I feel a deep, resounding, soulful, and profound relief.

Neptune can be at times delusional and deceptive for sure. But it really and truly OWNS that particular orbital sphere and DOES warrant "outermost" planetary status, always has, and presents far more redemptive possibilities than Pluto ever, ever, ever, could.

Pluto perhaps has wedded us to a restrictive form of karma from which we can now be more easily alleviated. 'Round and 'round we've gone ad infinatum. Sheesh. Enough already. I'm an optimist like that though.

Please be mindful of the fact that * has Pluto conjunct Mercury natally and his obnoxiously obtuse speech peculiarities, obvious mental imbalances, and repeatedly hollow rhetoric riddled with absolute untruths may just gradually become more apparent to more folks over a really short period of time due to this seemingly though perhaps to some, trivial reclassification. Not that I'm at all judgmental or anything. :)

Time will tell, but I'm hoping for a trickle down effect that will, over time, strip him of all his completely undeserved and unearned power through absolutely magical means.

May it be seen far and wide that the emporer has no clothes, consciousness, enlightenment, and is nothing more than our collectively projected scarecrow. If he "only had a brain" or a clue for that matter.

[DemExpat]

13. I can't follow how a small group of humans offically labelling something

can have such an effect....:silly:


I see things as having inherent power - or not. Tied in of course to all of our consciousness(es)

People and things do not have power by what someone outside it or them calls it. :shrug:

Enlighten me more on your approach please, Stella! :-) I might not agree, but I'd like to understand it a bit more!

:hi:


DemEx

[DemExpat]

15. Plus....this decision could be overturned.....

:D

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2472654#2473111

http://space.com/scienceastronomy/060824_planet_definition.html

[cassiepriam]

27. Dem, this is theoretical astrology.

Very esoteric and symbolic.

A group of astronomers only have made note of what the Universe is saying. Only reflecting the ethers and the spirit world perhaps.

We are excited, we may be been given a huge cosmic gift.
Will take everyone a while to sort it out.

[DemExpat]

32. Yes, I understand that this is of another level,

which is why I asked here for further explanation - or if not possible - further articles, sites, books for my exploration.
(All of the articles I found on Search seemed to verify my interpretation, or hunch, about this)

The excitement you speak of - is this because these astronomers have possibly given the sign that the energies are changing? And will this sign be affected at all if the decision of Pluto's status would be reverted?

Also my rebellious streak protests anything possibly spiritually positive coming from what I perceive to be elite groups....:D :silly:

Thanks though, for responding,

DemEx

[cassiepriam]

34. Yes, a rare glimpse into higher level astrological discussion.

The debate about Pluto is like listening to quantum physicists
arguing about string theory. :)

Typically you only hear astrologers arguing about orbs,
aspects, etc. But now the level of discussion is taken to the
level of pure theory.  Actually this is the most important
level I think. Without this kind of understanding, orbs and
aspects don't mean anything.

I believe the way it works is that astronomers have little to
do with it all, they only are the messengers.  A famous
astrological saying: As it is in heaven, so it is on earth. In
other words humans are only picking up the heavenly energies.
Astronomers have not given the sign, they are only noticing
that the energy is changing and reacting to it. They are just
reporting that something is going on. They however do not even
realize what they are saying. They only look at the physical
aspects of it all, not the deeper esoteric meaning. They are
like scouts sent ahead to give us information, but they don't
really understand what the info means. 

I confess I have not followed the politics in question about
the decision being over turned etc. That would not surprise
me. Pluto is a tough old bird and is not going to go easily
into the night. We here on earth are going to have to struggle
with it all for a while.
And even if it is overturned, we now know that something is up
with Pluto. 

Do you see how the focus in not on earth but in the solar
system and the cosmos? You have to flip over the earth
centered paradigm and look at it a different way.

[DemExpat]

41. This is one part of this issue that I intuitively reject here....

They however do
not even realize what they are saying.

I mean I do believe that they don't have any idea what they are doing spiritually, but that is why I don't take what they say seriously! :-)

Craziness hits when I realize how ambiguous and full of paradaoxes we all are in our endeavors to understand what is really going on!

Because if I don't accept what unconscious people might say or label as having a positive message, then I would not interpret Pluto's demotion as being a negative as is portrayed in Nancy's interpretation - A Planet Scorned - but in truth 'should' remain neutral on this and wait and see! LOL.....
I think I will do just this!


LOL! :silly:

Except for from the mouths of babes, I don't trust anything coming out of the mouths of any "experts".....very mistrusting and skeptical person I am in fact....

Thanks for expounding. I do understand the looking at the bigger picture - sometimes I flip back and forth between all of the aspects from personal, local, global, and universal...

DemEx

[cassiepriam]

52. We are looking at this from the ultimate meta level.

From a cosmic point of view, some sort of shift.

We on this planet are only picking up what is happening above. We haven't yet figured it out.
But people like Nancy and Stella are attempting to
think it through.

[DemExpat]

61. I do realize that those like Nancy and Stella are doing just this.

I listen to it all and just respond to how it speaks to me and my experiences.

But as you say elsewhere here - it might be 2-way - as form (and energy) follows thought and intention - and that 'down here' has effect on up there as well - energy-wise at least.

I love the discussion though, even if we can't see the whole picture from where we are.


:hi:

DemEx

[DemExpat]

33. And I confess, Cassie....

For these past years I have been studying Social Sciences (which are quite holistic at least at looking at interconnections and effects on the earthly plane) I have concentrated my mind on academic reasoning - something I felt I wanted and needed to develop somewhat! - so delving into other realms has been put a little on my back burners!
I read lots of books with symbolic/esoteric themes when my kids were little and I had little time for other pursuits.

:hi:

DemEx

[cassiepriam]

35. The same thing happens in social and bio sciences.

Major theorists propose ideas about a topic.
Freud, Darwin, etc. And then debate begins.
The idea is accepted or rejected by the academic
community. Considered fact even. Then later someone comes along and "proves" another theory which puts the classic theory in the trashbin.

For example some of the long standing Darwinian beliefs are now being challenged with the advent of mitochondrial DNA testing. It is beginning to look like Darwin was wrong in terms of how man has evolved.

[DemExpat]

39. Yes, I've long been aware of this in sciences....

my problem is with interpretation of symbolic and spiritual "signs".....that's all that I'm unsure of in this discussion!

:hi:

DemEx

[cassiepriam]

53. Yes, I know. It is a change in perspective.

And language. Spiritual language is coded highly symbolic communication.

And Earth is just grain of sand in the cosmos.

[cassiepriam]

37. The best way to learn IMHO

Is to read the kind of debate you are seeing here.
Reflects the thinking of the astrological community.

And you can get on some of the big astro site forums and read what is happening there as well. The debate is very educational and you can learn a great deal.

[stellanoir]

18. Well in the age of totally disingenuous nomenclature

and the denigration of science, this seems rather huge to me.

I too take issue with trash can labels especially with the psychological sector and more recently with the government.

In essence it's a symptom not a cause.

Of course I tend to read symbolism into some things I shouldn't and sometimes "a pencil is just a pencil." LOL

But go figure. The symbolic realm really doesn't have a lot to do with logic or conscious plurality. It's something else truly.

[DemExpat]

22. Thanks Stella....

Yes, I see and understand much of symbolism, just couldn't find myself in your interpretation.

Love reading all vantage points though! :D

:hi:

DemEx

[cassiepriam]

29. Stella, do you think that the healthy effects of Pluto will be

more in dominance now? The transformative, rebirth, healing traits? Those will not be diminished as well?
As you say, those traits are best when seen in a subtle light.

BTW your insight is brilliant, many thanks for sharing it all.

[stellanoir]

44. Thanks cassie

I was all jazzed about this occurance and its potential influence on the powers that be and just speculating in a stream of consciousness sort of way.

As to your question regarding whether or not the healthier manifestations will be diminished, I doubt it. People who have Chiron or any of the feminine asteroids in prominant positions in their charts certainly feel the influence of those celestial bodies though they are not considered to be "classical" planets.

The bottom line is that Pluto's status had been inflated. Now it's officially labeled for what it truly is. That would reflect its real size and elliptical orb. In a sense, it has been made more real.

It's the elimination of its inflation that has me so psyched. Though we all will persist in experiencing transformations, rebirths, and healings, the difference may be one of mollification as opposed to diminishment.

The analogy that strikes me is sort of akin to the difference between drama and melodrama (aka real genuine passion versus OTT behaviors). Both are dramatic but which of the two would you rather experience and which really has the potential to resonate with you on a deeper level ? :)

[cassiepriam]

51. We have never seen the real Pluto, we have distorted it?

Now it is coming into clear view in our psyches.
Illusions have fallen away.

If only that could now happen on this planet.
Deceptions and illusions replaced with reality.

[rumpel]

14. that is a great interpretation -

the fear mongering may no longer work, too.

:)

[rumpel]

16. did you see this on Maya's site?

http://daykeeperjournal.com/feature3.shtml

it get's better - there are more pictures as they add on :)

[DemExpat]

17. Those pics are fantastic!

Thanks.

:-)

DemEx

[Sweet Freedom]

19. Hey, those are great! Thanks for posting /nt

[NuttyFluffers]

23. i vote that we demote our sun's status.

it isn't big enough to truly be called a star. why antares makes our star seem downright puny and unworthy! :evilgrin: we shall call our beloved Sol a star-oid.

[I Have A Dream]

24. I wish that there was some way that we could demote Saturn.

:(

[cassiepriam]

28. LOL. The Lord of Karma, poof gone.

Geesh, I'd hate to be the astronomer
who tries that one.:(

[I Have A Dream]

30. Yeah, I was even a little worried SAYING IT!

(especially since my chart has so much Saturn in it!)

:scared:

:hide:

[cassiepriam]

31. I think you are safe, Saturn can take a joke. :)

Doing his job, he better have a sense of humor :)

[Matariki]

45. I had a similar thought

"demoting the source of deeply intense death and rebirth (aka transformational) experiences and obsessions may just create more graceful, gentle and less onerous transitions for each and every one of us."

I was thinking about the symbolism of demoting Pluto - considering how it's 'discovery' in the 1930's is often used as a symbol of the start of the atomic/nuclear age, and lends Pluto some of its symbolism. My hope is that the demotion of Pluto will sybolize the end of that age - an end to the threat of nuclear war. (hope springs eternal and all that.)

[liberalla]

20. Here's another insightful interpretation from Nancy Waterman...

A Planet Scorned

"The newly categorized “dwarf planet” Pluto is known as the ruler of the zodiacal sign Scorpio. Astrologically, Pluto describes a feeling of intensity, suspicion, a desire for total control, and a desperate fear when that control is threatened. It further indicates hidden wealth – sometimes derived from the death of others, covert power, extremism, obsession, and secretive, manipulative plots and plans. When manifesting its most positive attributes, Pluto can bring about a deep purging of unseen toxins, often quite painfully and dramatically, that ultimately transforms the situation into the birth of a new cycle.

Various countries and cultures have frequently been given the rulership of one or another astrological sign when a nation demonstrates the sign’s particular characteristics. In many ways, the Arab culture has collectively demonstrated many of the attibutes of Scorpio: in its intensity and depth of emotion, its desire for revenge when affronted, and its wealth based on the hidden resource of oil which itself is derived from the death of previous life on earth. Moreover, terrorism, largely derived from extremists within the Islamic culture, may be seen as a manifestion of the most dangerous Scorpionic/Plutonian qualities: obsession, fanaticism, death and violence used to manipulate and transform, and psychological warfare of the most devious and vicious kind. And finally, nuclear power, in its capactiy to unleash the hidden power in the atom and create untold devastation, is also clearly a member of Pluto’s domain.

How ironic then, how unbelievable an example of brutal synchronicity, that while the world quakes at the potential of terrorist machinations and at the pending destabilization of a large swath of the Middle East, largely fueled by Plutonian issues relating to religious fanaticism, revenge, oil, and the grasp for nuclear weapons, the Bush administration refuses to even talk to many of the key players involved – Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas, and the global scientific community has collectively dismissed Pluto as a “dwarf.” In a few days, Mars will be squaring Pluto, once again stimulating the more destructive energy of this newly “dwarfed” planet. In addition, beginning in December 2006 and continuing for a year, transiting Pluto will be conjunct the Galactic Center (26Sagittarius56) potentially fomenting a profound and possibly violent reallignment and transformation of global realities. As we watch the temperature rise in many of the world’s hot spots in the coming months leading to an as yet undefined transformation, we should remember this slightly modified old proverb: “Hell hath no fury like a planet scorned.” In that part of the world ruled by Pluto, respect and recognition, rather than dismissiveness, might go a long way in smoothing the path."

Her August 24th entry at http://www.starlightnews.com/

[DemExpat]

21. Thanks for posting - I understand this interpretation

and it rings very true to me.

The Bush administration doing nothing to deal with this energy focusing in the M.E., and now the scientific community (or a small part of it) demoting the planet's 'status' will possibly unleash even more of the most dangerous Plutonian energies by not respecting, recognizing and truly dealing with it.

:thumbsup: for Nancy's article!

DemEx

[cassiepriam]

38. Nancy is saying the opposite of Stella?

Stella saying the demotion will curb the bad energy?
Nancy saying it will unleash it?

Maybe it will all fit together at some point.

Maybe I am not understanding it all. But isn't this a great debate? :)

[DemExpat]

40. LOL... that's what I mean with interpretation.....

and Nancy's view is, to me personally, clearer to my mind, feelings, and life's experiences of embracing the dark, the negative to bring it to light, not to have it ignored, demoted, or banished .....

Yes, I find these discussions most fascinating and learn much just from the debate.

DemEx

[sweetheart]

48. Yes, like the banishment of set

Set, the god of darkness in egyptian mythos, became banished and 'evil'
with modern historical recapitulations, ones that deny and banish
the baser instincts to unconsciousness.

[DemExpat]

42. Well, this is one thing that I do not doubt in the least, Cassie!

Maybe it will all fit together at some point.

:thumbsup:

DemEx

[cassiepriam]

57. Yes it will all fit together someday, Dem. Never doubt it!

It is just so frustrating to me. I want to understand it all now.

I hate it when we have to find our own way :)

[stellanoir]

47. I honestly don't feel as though

it's reclassification matters a hoot to the planet itself.

It is far beyond ego orientation.

Its influence will persist, though perhaps mollified, nonetheless.

[DemExpat]

49. I doubt if anyone feels that the planet itself cares about classification.

But energy responds to intent and consciousness.

Isn't this what your interpretation is of what you feel is happening - although in a positive light - with this demotion of Pluto - that this will symbolically strip it of its power?
That tricky duality again - positive or negative.
We can't escape it, it seems! :silly:

Perhaps the answer is remaining neutral and waiting to see if any effect will be manifested.
That is how I feel, anyway, no dread, and no hopes. Centred and 'waiting' (open and curious).
Buddha! :-)


DemEx

[cassiepriam]

55. This is an interesting point.

Some say each planet has its own internal soul.

Even if this is true, I agree the re classification is beyond planetary ego. This is from on High. The way it is meant to be.

[Matariki]

46. One of my friends complained he was getting the 5 of cups come up alot

in his tarot readings. Another friend suggested he just throw the card out of the deck!!! I thought that was a funny and brilliant solution! Maybe that's what scientists are unconsciously doing. Maybe they're averting ww3 and devastating natural disaters.

- saying this in jest of course. mostly. :evilgrin:

[LaurenG]

25. Sally Cheyne McDonald's take on pluto

From the last 4 paragraphs

The downgrading of Pluto when it was on the Galactic Center convinces me even more that the earth, governments and even the “elite” of thought and action are moving into upheaval on a massive scale. I won’t predict when things will calm, at least not at this time. That prediction will take some time and it’s not a prediction to give lightly.

Pluto as a planet has been under discussion since it’s discovery and after 76 years is a group of astronomers getting around to a definition and not a popular one, in time they will change it back or find something equally powerful to replace Pluto. As an astrologer, I will only echo what some CalTech astronomers said today - ”It doesn’t make any difference what they do or what they call Pluto, we still have to track it, we still have to follow it’s impact on the earth and cosmos. It’s still a part of the solar system, and a big part.”

And for all you Scorpios out there, (Sun, Moon, Ascendant, and Mars) this is a signal that you are to dig into that yawning cave of healing, power and strength and exercise that vast power within all Scorpios to heal humanity of their grief and pain whether you are represented by an individual, cause or country. For your time has come and continues to gain strength, all Scorpios must walk out of being or thinking like a victim. For the rest of you experiencing a Pluto transit, this only means that the transformation brought on by Pluto aspects will be profound and multifaceted, calling on you as never before to rise up to your own influence. Whether Pluto returns as a planet or not, does not diminish his dominion over transformation, there has been too much research proving otherwise.

The words “transform” and “transcend” are only poetic words in an attempt to convey the power of changes happening to ourselves and to the world. Whether through the portion of our brain referred to as “reptilian” or the portion referred to as the “super-conscious,”
the collective consciousness of a group of astronomers in essence threw Pluto underground and that will provide a passage-way for humanity to begin to understand energy and how to use it, begin to understand the power of the collective and oneness of life, and begin to move toward healing, even if through pain.

Humanity has been signaled that the 4/5th dimension is arriving and we will be ready to receive the changes.

http://www.astroworld.us/archives/000604.html#000604

[cassiepriam]

26. I think it is significant in ways that are not yet totally defined.

(Stella is ahead of the curve, you heard it here first from her :).)

[cassiepriam]

36. Thank you to all who participate in this discussion.

Very illuminating.

[DemExpat]

43. Damn, this discussion is keeping me from my paper I am having

to write this weekend!

:yoiks: :-)

[cassiepriam]

54. Tell your Professor that you were studying solar system geography?

Earth Geography too tame :).

[DemExpat]

59. LOL....he's very nice and accommodating, but don't think

this would get me any points on my paper....

Many times through these past couple of years I'll be reading of our earth's problems and possible solutions, social scientists and their theories, and I'll be amazed at their intelligence and creative view on how things "fit together"......but in my mind I'll be thinking: oh, but you are not taking human psychology, childhood development, or esoteric, spiritual and symbolic layers into account here!
I just don't find a way to incorporate these into my papers and theses....:crazy:

But of course I'm also glad to see no religious stuff - Biblical, Koran or Torah in these materials and theories either.

:rofl:

DemEx

[cassiepriam]

63. Probably will not impress him :(

And yes, I now tend to see everything from a more cosmic view. And from a symbolic archetype view as well.

[rumpel]

50. this is such a great discussion

a few thoughts

on Dream's Saturn and Cassie's comment on karma - I immediately remembered reading in Kryon's first, and only book I actually read, it says something to the effect of: once you ask for what it refers to as "veil" to lift (I interepret it as the barrier to the other dimension)- all the karmic matters you were born with will have been dealt with and completed. So you would have a clean slate - if you will. I may have to re-read that section but the Saturn concept may yet evolve?

now back to Pluto - the death/rebirth/tranformation cycle it represents is quite amazing - is it possible, as Stella points out the "drama/melodrama" aspect of dying and living, and in fact our existence, is coming into line with various philosophies and practices such as in Tibetan Buddhism and the South American Shamanism and other traditional beliefs? Does this indicate that "fear", especially of "dying" is about to be more in line of what it actually is?

Are we starting to really get a glimpse of other dimensions beyond our reality, whether it is in esoteric or scientific understanding, and by that I mean, if the astronomers, out of pure scientific "intent" and thereby totally unconscious of the effects on the esotheric level, demoted Pluto it is interesting, as I for one believe that "thought" is creating reality. The collective thought on Pluto will change. Which then translates into basically saying: Thank you Pluto - we can do without the drama and melodrama we placed on you.

and not in sense to certainly disregard or disrespect - what if Pluto is affecting and ruling a micro universe of it's own, if you will - when you look at Maya's comparison pictures - those only expand. What about the reverse - just a mind twister ...
:dilemma:

:)

[cassiepriam]

56. Yes, form follows thought. Perhaps we are the ones

who will create the change. Or perhaps it is
bi directional, the shift from both above and from Earth.

Rumpel you raise a good question about Pluto's own ruling microcosm and how it would be affected, can you clarify what you mean about the expansion or reversal of its own inhabitants?

[rumpel]

58. In Mayas pictures

I only meant that she expands the view from our immediate universe to the ever larger universe looking at larger planets and stars- If we take Pluto to be the center of it's universe and look at smaller objects known and unkown there could be other realms that may be affecting Pluto, and subsequently again us and beyond.

here is: Trans-Neptunian Objects

Trans-Neptunian objects (TNOs) are any objects in the solar system that have an orbit beyond Neptune. Pluto is a trans-Neptunian object; another of the named Trans-Neptunian Objects is Varuna.

There are estimated to be perhaps 70,000 TNOs, each at least 100 km across, between 30 and 50 astronomical units from the Sun.

http://pds.jpl.nasa.gov/planets/special/smbod.htm

and from it's glossary (planet designation is not changed yet at JPL)

Pluto -- Planet ninth in order, and farthest, from the sun. In Greek mythology, god of the dead and the underworld.

and it's moon:

Charon -- In Greek mythology, ferryman of the River Styx, who carried the dead to the underworld. Each dead person was buried with a coin in his mouth or on his eyelids to pay for the crossing.

What constitutes this under world?




http://pds.jpl.nasa.gov/planets/captions/pluto/plutoch.htm

Here is Varuna:

Hindu (Vedic) god Varuna, maker and upholder of heaven and the Earth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TheKuiperBelt_Orbits_Varuna_DoubleView.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20000_Varuna

oh my, look at what it says:

In Vedic religion, Varuna (Devanagari:????, IAST:varu?a) is a god of the sky, of rain and of the celestial ocean, as well as a god of law and of the underworld. He is the most prominent Asura in the Rigveda, and chief of the Adityas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varuna

As chief of the Adityas, Varuna has aspects of a solar deity. As the most prominent Asura, however, he is more concerned with moral and societal affairs than a deification of nature. Together with Mitra – originally oath personified — being master of rta, he is the supreme keeper of order and god of the law.
Varuna and Mitra are the gods of the oath, often twinned or identified as Mitra-Varuna (a dvandva compound). Varuna is also twinned with Indra in the Rigveda, as Indra-Varuna.
As a sky god, Varuna may either correspond to, or rule over, the dark half of the sky — or celestial ocean (Ras?), hence being also a god of rain — or represent the 'dark' side of the Sun as it travels back from West to East during the night.
The Atharvaveda<1> portrays Varuna as omniscient, catching liars in his snares. The stars are his thousand-eyed spies, watching every movement of men.
In the Rigveda, Indra, chief of the Devas, is about six times more prominent than Varuna, who is mentioned 341 times. This may misrepresent the actual importance of Varuna in early Vedic society due to the focus of the Rigveda on fire and Soma ritual, Soma being closely associated with Indra; Varuna with his omniscience and omnipotence in the affairs of men has many aspects of a supreme deity.
Varuna later became the god of oceans and rivers and keeper of the souls of the drowned. As such, Varuna is also a god of the dead, and can grant immortality. He is attended by the nagas. He is also one of the Guardians of the directions, representing the west.
Later art depicts Varuna as a lunar deity, as a white man wearing golden armor and holding a noose or lasso made from a snake. He rides the sea monster Makara.

Discovery Brightens Odds of Finding Another Pluto
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 02:00 pm ET
23 May 2001

The search for another Pluto got a big boost Thursday with a new scientific report detailing how researchers have incorrectly estimated the brightness and size of distant solar system objects.

The study doubles the presumed reflective ability of a giant object in the Kuiper Belt, a vast region of space beyond the orbit of Neptune littered with frozen leftovers of the solar system's formation.

The new estimate allowed researchers to pin down the size of this Kuiper Belt Object, called KBO 20000 Varuna. It is now figured to be 40 percent as large as Pluto, making it the biggest in a string of recently discovered KBOs approaching the size of our solar system's smallest planet.

"The gap is closing," said David Jewitt, a University of Hawaii researcher and lead author of the new study, which appears in the May 24 issue of the journal Nature.

And the reservoir of potential is huge. Because KBOs are so far away, fewer than 400 have been discovered out of hundreds of thousands thought to be the size of Massachusetts and perhaps billions as large as a city. Next to nothing is known about those that have been spotted.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/pluto_varuna_010523.html

[cassiepriam]

62. Geesh you are right, it boggles the mind.

We have only been focusing on how the re class directly impacts Earth. What about how it will effect all the other heavenly bodies? nd then how that will indirectly effect earth?

And yes also I wonder what the vedics are doing with all of this, I will have to go to some of their sites.

I think you and Stella should write some articles!
You raise such good points. I really liked the point Rumpel too about how the reclass affects our thought fields which will have such impact on Pluto's functioning.

[rumpel]

66. I have to ponder some more, too

as you know astrology is very new to me and all the symbolism attached to the celestial bodies - it blows my mind.

The modern astronomers - presumably not much interested in the ethereal part of it, are all continuing to attach qualities to the new discoveries which may have profound meaning is incredible.
Is it the collective hightened vibrations many talk about that creates this situation?

Just blurting out - what comes to mind....

[cassiepriam]

68. I always thought it was the other way around

...that the astronomers are merely noting changes in the cosmos. And the changes occur in the heavens first and then filter down to earth.

But I do think that the collective human unconscious is an important part to consider.

[DemExpat]

60. Cassie this speaks to me.....

Or perhaps it is
bi directional, the shift from both above and from Earth.

Prominent in my mind is the Yin-Yang symbol in all manifestations here on earth (which I studied in my Macrobiotic years) - so in my mind this can also be projected into the cosmos. It always is a unity of opposing forces held in a balance.

This also was reflected in my experiences with Zen Buddhistic meditation - that everything just "is" and needs to be regarded, witnessed from a personal center of peace and calm.(I fail here repeatedly though...:D)

And is picked up through my years of psychotherapy (with some past life recognitions) where I learned to regard and face the truth of the dark side, to NOT ignore it, not try to banish it, but to face it down from my true center.

Anyway, these are how my mind and spirit look at these things from my experiences.

DemEx

[cassiepriam]

64. Looks like you got it! The zen of theoretical astrology :)

It is fascinating, isn't it?

[rumpel]

65. that's interesting

because it said:

Varuna "represents the 'dark' side of the Sun as it travels back from West to East during the night"

The yin and yang. Is the Pluto "universe" the unconscious? And is it coming into balance in our psyche now, through acceptance?

[cassiepriam]

70. Pluto

is about power, transformation, death, regeneration and rebirth. And yes, many consider it to represent the hidden dark unconscious. It has a dark underworld connotation.

In karmic work it represents that which the soul must eliminate and transform in the psyche. Where abuses and use of power reside. If the secrets of Pluto can be discovered and mastered then the soul can be transformed and empowered in a healthy way.

So yes the idea is perhaps that Plutonian energy will now be more balanced, less intense. That is the gift we are talking about!

[stellanoir]

67. Oh you hoo

Did you guys catch the thread that was moved to the lounge about this?

WARNING: consider donning your finest asbestos before entering. . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5554079

Quite a trip to see how hostile and misinformed some folks are.

FYI Arch Crawford is a complete and total ace. He was one of the only astrologer to predict Black Friday back in '87 and many of the heavy hitters on Wall Street don't make a move without consulting his "Crawford Review." He's a total character and really humble.

[cassiepriam]

69. I think it is interesting to see how everyone weighs in on the topic.

Of course being an expert in mundane or predictive astrology may not make someone an expert in the esoteric or theoretical side.

I am a bit taken aback that some astrologers are not even giving the matter a bit of thought before they sound off. And I am also looking for someone to give a thoughtful response as to why the reclass doesn't matter.

I am willing to be convinced either way, but I need some good arguments on both sides to decide.

[stellanoir]

72. Not to sound like a broken record or anything.

I've said this before in other, though similar ways. I guess I'm still trying to refine my point of view on this still recent and I feel significant development.

In as much as the astrologers quoted seem to be offended (especially Ackerman) I just still find the reclassification curious, potentially positive, and really interesting and intriguing especially at this particular juncture in time when Pluto is so near the Gallactic Center. I'm hopeful in light of the fact that it will conjoin the Solar Apex (signifying "the way forward for our lovely sphere") by 2008 and many have made such dire predictions for that year. Perhaps that transition may be less harsh than previously anticapated.

Also given that until recent years we've not before seen in this lifetime, more blatant or overt abuse of power, corruption, or obvious roasting of the general public by the utility and oil corporations, I truly feel that Pluto's demotion is not at all or by any means a nullification. It's an adjustment and a clearly more accurate definition, and may just contribute to the collective consciousness in a way that could be corrective in regards to eliminating the inflation of Pluto's more nasty manifestations.

I feel it will and DOES matter but do not feel it lessens or negates the influence of Pluto but may ultimately render greater focus, balance, appropriateness in reference to our interpretations, expressions, and experiences.

I'll shut up now but with Jupiter in the third in Scorpio and Mars transiting my first, it's gonna be difficult to do so. blah blah blah

[cassiepriam]

73. As always, thank you for your insightful comments.

Keep refining away! It is all coming together.
I do think you should think about publishing your thoughts
on this topic.

[Grateful for Hope]

77. I second this

When I first heard about this, I felt it was a positive step - but, I did not know why. I know that the decision was based on the discovery of other like (to Pluto) solar bodies, and, from what I have heard, the astronomers involved decided that it was time to more accurately pin down the definition of a planet.

Stellanoir's posts have not only validated my feelings, they have also given me hope that there is something truly spiritual that is working in the background to counteract what we are experiencing in the foreground -- unprecedented abuse of power in our lifetime.

I agree with you, Cassie, that Stellanoir should publish her thoughts.


Stellanoir :yourock:

Cassie :headbang:

[cassiepriam]

71. The most important parts of the chart in my work aren't the planets anyway

I look at the nodes and chiron a great deal. So I am used to working with powerful non planet energies, much more so than other astrologers. And Pluto is the most karmic of the outer planets in my work, so it will still be quite important. This reclass for the time being may not affect me as much as others. But I am going to be reading and thinking how it will change my interpretations.

[stellanoir]

74. Told ya it would be hard to shut up.

Anyone thinking that this reclassification has stripped Pluto entirely of its influence. . .it hasn't.

I just learned that my first cousin, of my many cousins, the one who was closest to me in age (3 mos younger) died yesterday.

The transiting Sun was on his natal Pluto as was his progressed Moon. Transiting Pluto was on his natal Moon. That constitutes a triple whammy in my book. Oh and his progressed Sun was on his natal Chiron.

He was also having a transiting Nodal reversal.

He was a bit of a dare devil and an airline pilot who always took the international flights that were especially dangerous flying over remote mountain ranges where planes are out of radio contact for several hours. Few other pilots were willing to fly them and he always voluteered to do so.

He drowned on vacation and we really have no specific details as yet but I presume he was partying as he couldn't do so during most of the year unless he had a long stretch of time off because of the drug testing required.

Transiting Jupiter is still in orb to a conjunction with his natal Neptune as well.

Freakish.

[LaurenG]

75. Oh Stella, I'm so sorry to hear about your cousin

:hug:

[I Have A Dream]

76. I'm sorry for your loss, stella.

:(

:hug:

[Grateful for Hope]

78. Gosh, I am so sorry to hear this

I am so sorry, stellanoir.

[cassiepriam]

79. Very sorry Stella, my condolences.

Yes I think your assumption about cause of death is correct.
All of the karmic placements and then the Jup/Nep conj.
He got pulled right back to very old karmic issues.

You are right, Pluto may be downsized but he is still here.

[stellanoir]

80. Thanks so much for all your heartfelt condolences.

Yet this morning, I had an image of him hitting himself on the head strike me. and having a concussion shortly before his fall. Transiting Mars was on his North Node squaring his Sagittarian stellium (Mars, Juptiter, Moon).

Then we got the Medical Examiner's report. He officially died of drowning but did have a major cranial bruise so probably lost consciousness prior to death. If he undoubtely had a few, they were classifying it as mute.

He had bought a new kyack and it had slippery and unstable surface. A kyack is not a dingy. The weather was choppy. It was unstable when he tried to board his boat. He most likely klunked himself upon his boat.

He's been talking to me all day and I've been channeling his classical Yankee sarcastic humor all day to cheer his grieving youngest brother.

He's mostly PO'ed that he died as symbolic of his spazz attack rather than one of his more daring endeavors.

Sheesh. My familial waves are choppy at present.

[cassiepriam]

82. I was thinking the same thing

How ironic his death was in light of his dare devil escapades all his life.
And I was hoping you were talking with him.

With Mars on the NN it looks like it might be karmic, a death that was meant to be.
What is he telling you?

[rumpel]

81. Oh no...

I feel for you and your family...


:grouphug:

[Why Syzygy]

83. Scientists fight to save planet

Why bother your beautiful mind with rebuilding New Orleans when you have a chance to save an entire planet?

Hundreds of U.S. scientists have challenged a recent decision by an international astronomy group to strip Pluto of its planetary status with a petition rejecting its definition of what constitutes a planet.

The astronomical insurrection shows that debate is likely to continue over the status of the icy rock at the edge of the solar system that was considered the ninth planet until a vote last week by the International Astronomical Union.

Petition organizer Alan Stern said the union’s decision was driven by politics, not science.

“The IAU created a definition which is technically flawed, linguistically flawed and scientifically embarrassing,” Stern said in a phone interview.

Of course, while we’re busy saving Pluto, it’s increasingly clear that Earth is f*cked.

http://keepaustinblue.org/blog/?p=679
(censorship mine)