So how dangerous is this?

[wildeyed]

My neighbor has a 1-yr old German shepard. He is a nice dog, although somewhat under exercised because both the owners work a lot. But here is the dangerous part; the dog is completely out of control with the couples 6 and 9 year old kids. He tackles the younger and bites him on the arms and back of the head. Not hard enough to break skin, but not completely play biting, either. He bit the older child hard enough to leave indentations in her skin a few days ago. The father completely ignores the dog while he does this. Thinks it is something the kids are doing that is causing the dog to act aggressively. Both my husband and myself have tried to say something and been brushed off.

I don't think there is anything I can really do. Mostly I am just venting here. But I am curious to get opinions from the more experienced dog people, is this as dangerous as it seems to me? Or is it an adolescent thing that the dog will grow out of?

I don't believe the dog is unstable. He was out of control with the kids the other day while their caretaker was watching them. She couldn't get him under control, so I hopped the fence. Once I got a leash on him, he was quite docile, even showed me his belly.

[yewberry]

1. This is not something the dog will grow out of

if this kind of play is allowed; it will probably escalate.

It's not the dog's fault. The family hasn't gone to the trouble of teaching him what is and isn't okay play, and the children may not be at an age at which they can really understand how their actions can shape the dog's behavior or his understanding of his place in the group dynamic.

If the family is willing to put in a lot of effort and be disciplined themselves, the dog can be trained so that he won't end up a biter. If they do nothing, it could be bad for everyone, especially the dog.

(If this helps in any way to convey how serious this problem could become, tell him that I asked my husband, a professional dog trainer, about this and his first suggestion was that the dog should be re-homed to a family without children. They aren't taking responsible care of the dog and re-homing won't remain an option if serious bites occur.)

Sorry I don't have more reassuring words. Good luck to all.

[wildeyed]

2. Maybe I will try to talk to the mom.

She might be more receptive. The thing is, I think the dog could be trained to be better with the kids. The problem is, the dad just shuts down when you try to talk to him about it.

I would really hate to see one of the kids injured and it is a really nice dog. But there is only so much you can do.

Thanks for the response. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't over reacting.

[yewberry]

3. Sure the dog could be trained

but they need to train the kids (and probably themselves) in order to train the dog, and that might be too much.

I'd hate to see an injury, too, and I'd really hate to see that dog put down later on because his family trained him to be dangerous.

(And hey, we might BOTH be overreacting--but it's hard not to want to help, you know?)

Good luck!

[Tab]

4. I don't like it

The dog may not be unstable, but he needs to be taught limits.

I have a border collie that when very excited will nip, and he certainly gets corrected when he does. He doesn't do it as a rule, but if he did, I'd think twice about exposing him to young kids.

A puppy chewing is one thing, but by 1 yr old, this should not be an allowable behavior.

And you say the dog isn't unstable, but you also say he was out of control until you got the leash on him. That doesn't sound good.

He needs to get trained out of it now. If they can't pull it off, make sure your kids are only there in supervised situations with someone who can control the dog. Otherwise, it's just a bite waiting to happen.

If it helps, insurance companies are very touchy about dogs nowadays, and a bite history is enough to get your home insurance cancelled. That may help you convince your neighbor.

I used to have a German Shephard, and we never quite got him properly socialized (although I'd like to think we tried - we used to breed dogs, just not Shephards). Ultimately he got more and more aggressive over the years, to the point where I didn't want my son to have friends over, and then finally he tried to eat our plumber, unprovoked, and we had to have him put down.

With German Shephards, if you don't nip it in the bud, you're asking for heartbreak and difficult situations down the road.

[wildeyed]

5. I had a shepard mix who I would qualify as slightly unstable

around kids and other dogs. We attempted to socialize her to children, but often, when she saw a kid, she would growl and the hair on her scruff would go up. We tried and tried to get her comfortable around kids, but eventually, we re-homed her with a family whose kids were grown. He behavior around children was just too disturbing and it didn't seem fair to her to keep her separated in the yard or in her crate all the time.

The neighbors dog does not growl or act aggressively when he sees kids. His aggression is more learned. He jumps on them and dominates them and the parents yell at the kids for "provoking" him, so he thinks, hmmm, I must be dominate here since I am allowed to bite the kids.

When I got the leash on him and got his attention, he did obey commands and even showed me his belly. And he barely knows me. If it was my dog, the kids would never be allowed to interact with him without my supervision, and if he even looked at them inappropriately he would be in down-stay right away.

As it stands, I don't let my kids play at their house right now. I have their kids over instead.

[IndyOp]

6. I think you have a perfectly accurate take on the situation -

The shepherd sees the parents' behavior of scolding the kids as confirming that he is dominant to the kids.

I think the situation is dangerous. Maybe mentioning the insurance company issue to the woman might make a difference. Maybe you could take them information about local dog trainers who they could ask about the situation or information about trainers/training classes that could help.

If they are as clueless about dog behavior as you describe, the dog should be rehomed - especially because the dog responded so positively to you just putting a leash on him. It seems as if the dog has a chance to be a good family dog if he is with a family that will train him appropriately (and who, hopefully, has older kids).

Thanks for caring about the family & the dog...

[wildeyed]

7. The thing is, the dog has had extensive obedience training.

They sent him to doggie training camp while they were making the move to our neighborhood. But I think it is the family who needs training now, not the dog.

Next time I see the mom, I will try to mention the trainer idea. The father is completely closed to any type of comment on the dog's behavior. The thing is, they are trying with this dog. I see them out walking him all the time. I think it is just ignorance that is the problem here.

[IndyOp]

8. It is good news that they think training matters - but

I don't know any dog trainers who think that sending the dog for training matters as much as training the people. (It is like parents who drop their 'problem child' off at the psychiatrists' office to be fixed, but who won't examine/change their own behavior that could be contributing to the child's problems).

Training is so that people will develop an appropropriate relationship with the dog (the person is alpha) and so that the people can effectively communicate with the dog. It isn't so much that 'sit' or 'down' are the important products of dog training - it is so that the people know how to train the dog for a variety of situations.

If mom is willing to talk to a trainer and get the trainer's perspective on 'whether this is a problem' -- that might be a breakthrough.

Take care!