Here it is: The Angry White Men's Society...Holy Crap

[Triana]

Okay. I KNEW they were out there but I guess I didn't know they were so organized:

http://www.ncfm.org/about-ncfm.php

"National Coalition of Free Men" (?)

Read some of the crap they have on this page about women (and how much of the truth they leave OUT of their "facts"):
_ _ _ _ _

American men have been raised to feel sorry for American women. It is wrapped in the old expression, "A Woman's Work is never done". The charge made by American feminists that all men had "oppressed" women was an easy charge to get past the guilt that American men were raised to feel.

The result of all of this has been a women's movement that has sought special privilege and which has gone unopposed in the pursuit of special privilege. In a nut shell, women have been given choices while holding men responsible for those choices. To wit:

* Men have no reproductive rights.


* Men can whimsically be denied access to their children after divorce.

* Men are at a disadvantage in the work place because of female hiring quotas. Those who want to fuel the racial issue in the U.S. concentrate their focus on black hiring quotas (which often benefits black women) and articulate the problem as a "white man's" issue. But black men have been victimized by it too (by being passed over for promotion and denied jobs, the same as white men).

* Women have three choices: stay home and raise a family, work full time or work part time. Men have three choices: Work full time, work full time or work full time.

* Women can choose whether or not to go into the military and once there whether to go into combat. There is no requirement for them to register for the military. In the U.S. all males must register. It is presumed that if the U.S. reinstates the military draft that only men will be required to go. In the past, that was certainly the case.


Let's go back and reply to the earlier charges made against men:

1- Men have all the power.
Feminists claim that the "men's movement" is the legislature. But in America the legislature caters to the needs of well funded special interests groups. No one knows how much money has been spent on women's causes, but the amount is in the BILLIONS. Almost every state, major municipality, county and the federal government has "offices", "commissions" and "task forces" to represent women's needs. There is not a single one for men. Moreover, legislatures, primarily made up of men have always been cognizant of passing legislation that they felt was in the best interests of women, because of their role as protector.

2- Only wives are abused by husbands.
Every study that has used the random sampling technique to look at the issue of spouse abuse has concluded that men are at least 50% (or higher) of the battered spouses in America. Since 1975 there have been more than 30 such studies. Three of them have been national in scope.

3- All men are in a conscious conspiracy to keep all women in fear of rape.
Try and figure this one out. It can be explained, but it would take paragraphs to do it. The reasoning is perverse. It has to do with the way "feminists" define sexual power and it relates to the way they have sought to disempower men and empower themselves through the threat of false accusation (which is the covert counterpart to an overt threat). The charge was first made by Susan Brownmiller in her 1979 work, Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape (page 14 of the hard cover edition).

4- Women are a special "oppressed" class in need of special compensation because of past discrimination.
This charge surfaces to justify why so much money has been spent by government and private foundations on women's needs and nothing has been spent on men's needs. It also surfaces as a justification for Affirmative Action in the work place for women. The charge is that women were forced into a restricted role in the home where they were made into servants for men. Every concession to women's organizations rests on this premise.

Because the charge that men "oppressed" women has been so powerful, it is worth exploring for a minute.

What escapes people who make this charge is that men had no choices either in their role as provider and protector. Men were expected (forced) into the work place where they often risked life and limb to provide for women. In the U.S. around 90% of all work related deaths are by men. Men also have had no choice (except to leave the country) when confronted with a military draft. American women have never been forced to serve in any capacity for the good of their own nation.

Finally, feminists (radical feminists in particular) have misrepresented history and the role women have played in it by claiming that women have been "oppressed" by men throughout time. In contradiction, Page Smith, (Daughters Of The Promised Land: Women In American History, Little Brown and Co., NY, 1970) for one, notes that women were well represented among the professions during colonial America. Alexis DeTocqueville (Democracy In America) raves about the freedom and education enjoyed by American women in the 1830's. In her 1963 book, The Feminine Mystique, Betty Friedan explores the changing roles and freedom of American women in the 1920's and questions why things became so restrictive during and after the 1930's.

...

[Anakin Skywalker]

1. Jesus Efffing Christ! What a bunch of WHINY CHILDREN!

And as for this one: "* Women have three choices: stay home and raise a family, work full time or work part time. Men have three choices: Work full time, work full time or work full time.
"

I guess they have not heard of K-Fed Kevin Federline aka MR. Britney Spears? He's a MAN of the New Generation, OK?

[Triana]

4. That statement is a bald-faced lie...(not yours, theirs...)

...women DO NOT have THREE choices. Most often they have ONE choice. Work TWO full time jobs: One at work and ANOTHER when they get home running the household and raising the kids BY THEMSELVES because MEN do little of that stuff, usually.

ALSO: Women ARE NOT ALLOWED INTO COMBAT!! Duh. Women do NOT have a "choice" as to whether to go into combat after they enter the military. They are KEPT OUT of it and ALSO KEPT OUT of high-ranking positions that REQUIRE combat duty as qualifications.

DUH.

This shit is so, so SO wrong, and such a bunch of bald-faced whiney, angry little white men LIES it's just rediculous. And get THIS from their "Awards" page:

"The National Coalition of Free Men (NCFM) is a non-profit educational organization that examines the way sex discrimination affects men. It also tries to raise public consciousness about little known, but important, topics dealing with the male experience. In addition, we sponsor a variety of "men's rights" projects.

NCFM was founded on the realization that men needed a unified voice when expressing their desires and beliefs on important political and social issues of the day."

http://www.ncfm.org/awards.php

UN-FRIGGIN-BELIEVEABLE!

[TellTheTruth82]

84. Be careful here

Women do serve in combat - in combat support and comabt service support roles - which takes them into the firing lines. They are prohibited from serving in combat units - infantry, armor, etc, but they are often in or near the front lines with those units. Also, please state your source that says which high ranking positions require combat duty - if so, why are there women who wear four stars on their collars? I am not saying that the rest of the stuff isn't true - but if you rebut garbage with garbage, it doesn't really serve a purpose other than to weaken your own case....

[elehhhhna]

44. Thsi explains why women are suddenly molesting & killing children in

schoolhouses across the country.
not.

[Triana]

47. That's a job for a *real* man...

...like the ones in Congress.

[Ken Burch]

81. They forgot about THIS guy, too:

[tularetom]

2. I'm an angry white man

and reading shit like this makes me even angrier. This is nothing but a bunch of sniveling little boys whining about getting screwed by the women's rights movement. Just suck it up and be a man, dude.

[Triana]

5. Heh. Thanks, tularetom...

...I think these whiney-babies got issues, ya know?

*sigh*

At least there are a few sane ones left!!!

[muntrv]

3. This is the long version of WAAAAAAHHHH! WAAAAAHHHH!

[Triana]

6. ;)

Jeeeeeeeeze...

[razors edge]

7. You can find

assholes all over the net and this is just more proof.

I believe in equal rights for all period.

But watching Arron Russo being interviewed about his movie, he said something that kinda made me look at the issue in a different shade. He said something to the effect that a Bilderburg type friend of his told him the women's rights movement was something they pushed for and funded in order to have women join the workforce and pay taxes. Business liked the idea of paying less for the same job and now children would be sent to daycare who would have staff paying taxes as well.


Again I have no problem with anyone doing what they want to do, but this does seam to have been the outcome where women still do not have pay equity, kids go to daycare, and the middle class has seen wages drop overall while the tax incomes have increased.

[Triana]

17. Tha's a very interesting observation and I don't doubt...

...that potential tax revenues probably helped influence any business and gov't support for women joining the workforce - and they still ended up with the short end of the stick in regards to salaries.

[Anakin Skywalker]

8. One of Their Whines Makes Them Seem

AFRAID to be drafted. Well, DOH! (SLAP YOURSELVES ON YOUR NEANDERTHAL FOREHEADS!) If you angry males wouldn't have voted for Rethug chicken hawks, you would have less wars and your chances of having a draft is reduced by quite a bit.

[Triana]

10. Bingo....

...I don't think it's womens' fault there are so many wars and that men get drafted into them. WOMEN do not run this country. Men do - that is to say we have NEVER had a "Madame President". And more men tend to vote Republican than do women - and Republicans LOVE war. In fact, they love it so much, that's all they want to use our taxes for - and nothing else.

I hardly see how this is womens' fault, or the fault of the women's movement. It appears to be just a whine.

[TellTheTruth82]

85. be careful here

I know several republicans who despise war - your generalization hurts your case - and perhaps the people who dislike war the most are those in the military. As the Air Force used to say "Peace is our Profession" - - they train so they don't have to fight!

[laconicsax]

9. I'm reading this...

and I'm not quite sure how I, as a man, don't have reproductive rights. I'm pretty sure that I'm legally free to impregnate whoever I want, whenever I want, however many times as I want and not have to deal with the consequence (rape notwithstanding).

[Triana]

11. Exactly...

...the only consequences can be that the guy has to help raise (physically or monetarily - usually the latter) the child, and many times, they can even get out of that - or a good bit of it, or most of it. The biggest burden of it all - physically, emotionally, and financially, falls on the woman. Men are quite free of it, often. Speaking of 'freedom' - and they do call themselves the National Coalition of Free Men. What they're whining about - is a mystery to me.

[Chulanowa]

43. But what if they don't WANT to "get out of it"?

A few years back, I was settled down with a woman. We were fully intending to get married. We had a child on the way, and I was totally ready to be a dad - We had already named her Ariel, even. And then I came home somewhere around the seven-month mark, and found my fiancé looking all solemn, and she told me she'd gone and had an abortion.

In layman's terms, this is known as a "mindfuck".

I didn't want to "get out of it". I didn't want to leave my fiancé high and dry with a baby on her hands. I wanted to be a father to our child. I was looking forward to, as you so kindly put it, "facing the consequences". I wouldn't have "forbidden" her from getting an abortion - I was, still am, pro-choice. I would have loved, however, to have at least some imput on the situation. I may be mistaken, but human parthenogenesis remains well within the realm of fantasy, after all.

And what of other fathers, who love their children, but get divorced? Courts almost always grant custody to the mother, regardless of the capability of either parent to raise kids.

Not all men are dead-beat "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" types, out to shag and run, who want all the fun and no responsability. I'm not sure if that's something you think it not, but I, at least, certainly don't - can't - fit such a stereotype.

I don't agree with the vast majority of what these guys are saying. Even given my experience above, I have no issue with women, with abortion, anything. I don't regard myself as "oppressed" or "disfavored". But I do look at how the law works in regards to fatherly custody and visitation, I see how medical decisions are conducted, and I think to myself that there could stand to be a lot of improvement to include both parents in decisions regarding their children.

[Triana]

48. I don't think all men are like that...

...but the ones who are make a bad name for the rest who aren't. For the record, I think she should have consulted you before she had the abortion. Not to ask permission but to at least discuss it so you'd know and have a chance to say your piece about it. Then, if she still wanted to, she could do it. It's still her choice. But, to not say anything to you knowing you wanted the child, was not a good decision, IMO. She could have at least discussed it. She may have feared you'd try to prevent her from making her decision, or that you'd interfere. I can guarantee you that fear was the underlying factor.

I agree about courts being unfair to Dads sometimes. Too often they give custody to a mother who is unfit - just because she's the mother. Someone else pointed out in this thread that most of the judges who make those decisions are male. Go figure. I've had a problem with that for years myself. Men often make more money, and when they're decent and not jerks, and want their kids and the mother is less well-equipped to raise them, it's worth considering giving custody to the father. It cuts both ways with this issue, and the courts have yet to catch up to modern society when it comes to Dads and fatherhood.

I'd like to personally thank you for being a good guy. I'm sorry about your experience and wish it hadn't happened to you that way. You seem very decent. It's not just women, but also guys like you who also get 'victimized' by the nutty ones and the jerks - and the women who fear them.

[Lars39]

13. I think it means he's not happy about his SO being on the pill

or deciding on her own to terminate a pregnancy.

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. Must be the penis ring their daddies installed on them when they were

just children, that's stopping them.

[backtoblue]

82. You are so right!

nt

[StClone]

12. Art to soothe their angst

[sarge43]

14. On behalf of my sisters in arms

http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/lives.html

"American women have never been forced to serve in any capacity for the good of their own nation."

This is true because except for a few months during WWII (an interesting story in itself), American women have always volunteered for the military in greater numbers than there were positions available. For the record, following WWII and until 1975, the gov't had a 2% cap on the number of women on active duty.

[Triana]

15. THANK YOU.

for some FACTS on the matter...

[Triana]

16. Here's another Angry White Male site - all about what HE thinks of women..

...this is really funny. This guy has SERIOUS issues!

http://home.earthlink.net/~jamiranda/GWPindex.html

He HATES women!

Why the f*ck would any guy with this type of attitude towards women WANT to date them?

Honestly, I think he needs therapy HIMSELF.

[lukasahero]

18. Disturbing quote from this new site

"Also, please note there is no information here on "games men play." The reason is simple, really: men's games have long since been criminalized under the rubrics of "sexual harassment" and "date rape," "

This guy thinks sexual harassment and date rape are just "games" men play?

Come on guys, I know the men here are better than this. What say you?

[Triana]

24. !!!

Holy crap I missed that part. I'm dead serious when I say this guy needs help.

I have to say men DO play games, some of them. Nasty ones. I see it on at least a weekly basis from some of them I know. I know one in particular who is verbally abusive and plays maniuplative little games on a regular basis. I don't know if he physically abuses women, but he certainly verbally and emotionally abuses them and is manipulative as Hell. It's obvious - based on his manipulations and verbal abuse, that he subscribes to such attitudes as this guy's and the "NCFM" (angry white male society).

Not saying all men have these hateful, abusive, manipulative attitudes towards women, but too many of them do. It's shocking to see it promoted like this, but at least now we can see where it's coming from.

[lukasahero]

30. I will admit

these men scare me. And to all the guys who love any opportunity to suggest that women who fear men are playing the victim and showing their hate for all men, well, tough shit.

This guy apparently thinks the only reason men aren't raping women for fun (as a game) is because it's now illegal - and he obviously doesn't think it should be - he must remember the days when it was legal fondly.

THIS is an example of the reason we have to distrust men. Until we get to know you, we don't know you're not him.

[Triana]

31. I could not have said it better myself....

"THIS is an example of the reason we have to distrust men. Until we get to know you, we don't know you're not him."

WOW.

[Orrex]

32. Are we to conclude, then, that one pack of assholes speaks for all men?

That's quite a remarkable statement.

I had no idea that Liberals of any stripe espoused a policy of gender profiling.

[Triana]

34. so women should take their lives and health ...

... and put them at risk on a daily basis just because to not trust men till we get to know them well enough to trust them is 'gender profiling'? Particularly when there are apparently such a large number of "him" out there?

I think there is too much at stake for women NOT to be that careful, and I think if men were subjected to as much violence and hatred (from women) that as often resulted in their eventual physical and emotional harm, sexual abuse, and death - they'd be just as careful too.

Once again, men are not the ones who need to be so in fear of walking down a dark street alone at night or going home from work late at night alone. Women are.

We can't help it there are so many women-hating control freak crazies out there who make a bad name for the good guys. If you want to do something about that problem, start by talking to the women-hating crazies. Griping at the women about it won't help.

[bloom]

35. It seems to me

that women who trust men are considered "naive". Women will be bashed either way. As if the violence done to us is our fault.

[sarge43]

39. "Naive"

But, but she was asking for it.

Yes that was

[Triana]

41. it's true that...

...having a younger woman who 'doesn't know any better' is often considered an advantage (for guys). They can get away with more that way.

In Orrex's defense - I understand his feeling 'victimized' by the stigma that the crazies create -- that all men - good ones included - have to live with for safety's sake. That women have to walk around in fear of them all to protect themselves even though many guys are perfectly safe. But we don't know which ones are or are not.

I think part of the solution is for men to talk to other men about their bad behavior, violence and attitudes towards women - to let them know that there are other *men* out there who consider it unacceptable for them to treat women that way.

Because men will listen to other men more readily than they will listen to women.

If you think about it - those angry men who abuse women are really victimizing *all* of us - including other men - the good ones who have to live with the stigma foisted on them by the crazies. I feel for them - but I think *part* of the solution is for them to speak up about the issue to other men. It's not a total solution by any means, but it can be an important part of it in our society.

[Orrex]

52. Does any of that address any post of my post? Not really

You're making a clear statement about the general untrustworthiness of men based on the actions of a few assholes (specifically, the owner of that idiotic website and his cronies). Well, I've known more than a few women in my time who were assholes--is it reasonable to declare all women untrustworthy based on that small and non-representative sample?

Clearly not.

And no one here is denying that women are subject to a broad spectrum of abuse; that would be foolish, because the evidence is extensive and pretty much irrefutable. But that doesn't in any way justify a blanket suspicion of all men.

How does that casual dismissal differ from broad, racial stereotyping? Why is it more justified?

And this bit:

We can't help it there are so many women-hating control freak crazies out there who make a bad name for the good guys. If you want to do something about that problem, start by talking to the women-hating crazies. Griping at the women about it won't help.

is just silly. You're simply declaring that your view is correct and beyond discussion. And rather than acknowledging the possibility that a stereotyped attitude toward all men might be unjustified, you're requiring me to accept your view and to take steps to justify it.

Well, I mentioned above that I've known more than a few women who were assholes. Am I justified in requiring you to correct their behavior? Or should I just suspect that all women are assholes, and require each in turn to prove that she is not?

[mongo]

54. You just don't get it

Beat ya to it sisters!

[mongo]

53. Women are taught to be afraid

By society, TV and sensational news. If you want to talk about danger, you are many times over more likely to be attacked by your partner.

So why the fear walking alone at night? Is it something that is more taught to you, than any kind of real danger?


Why are some women afraid and others not? My 21yo daughter is a world traveler. She is not afraid. Why are so many of you?

[Mad_Dem_X]

65. You make an excellent point:

" think if men were subjected to as much violence and hatred (from women) that as often resulted in their eventual physical and emotional harm, sexual abuse, and death - they'd be just as careful too."

If the shoe were on the other foot, if the situation were reversed, how would THEY feel living that way?

[Triana]

72. I'm pretty sure that ...

...if guys were as often abused or killed by women as women are by men, they'd feel a need to be more careful.

Blaming women or their 'training' or what they're 'taught' for the facts is again blaming the victim. Women don't need to be 'trained' or 'taught' to fear for their physical and emotional safety from men. The facts dictate that they must. It's not a matter of teaching. It's a matter of what simply is.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

19. Most of this is subjective, and therefor hard to get your teeth into,

But one thing that did catch my eye was this claim:

Every study that has used the random sampling technique to look at the issue of spouse abuse has concluded that men are at least 50% (or higher) of the battered spouses in America. Since 1975 there have been more than 30 such studies. Three of them have been national in scope.

Anyone care to go into more detail on this? It looks like it's almost certainly factually incorrect.


Also, this claim strikes me as slightly odd: "Men also have had no choice (except to leave the country) when confronted with a military draft." The obvious question to ask is "how do they know"?

[bloom]

21. The thing with that

In their so-called studies - they are essentially saying that to slap a person and to kill a person is equivalent.

So if the study asks men - how many of you have been slapped (or any other battery) by your partner - they could say that as many men have been slapped (or battered) as women. What these men are not going to do is to compare serious injuries and deaths - the things that put people in the hospital or the morgue - because it would make men "look bad".


Here's the overall murder rate - you can go to the site and see more stats broken down by girlfriend/boyfriend, etc.

Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male (rate app. 5.5 per 100,000)

Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm

[Triana]

28. Thanks, bloom

For the FACTS of the matter. As I originally said, this angry white males group leaves a LOT of facts OUT of their claims.

[Orrex]

33. Good citations--thanks!

Here's what The Straight Dope has to say on the matter.

And this, I think, is the particularly relevant bit:

Depending on what you read, men suffer from 9 percent to around a third of domestic-violence injuries, although they're less likely to report the abuse. What's also not in dispute — and here we finally take care of implication #1 — is that many more women than men are killed as a result of relationships gone wrong. Among domestic homicides in 2004, 1,159 women were killed by their male partners, while only 385 men were killed by female partners.

Clearly, women suffer domestic violence much more commonly than men, and the extent of that violence is typically much more severe.

For my money, a guy who hits his partner, girlfriend, or spouse has committed battery and should be jailed, just as if he'd struck a stranger.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

45. Why do you specify "guy"?

Do you believe that the same law should apply to women, or not?

For what it's worth, I think that there are good arguments both for and against treating domestic violence more leniently than other kinds, but I'm fairly sure that mandating a jail term for anyone who hits anyone else (domestically or otherwise) is a bad idea, so even if you do treat them equivalently it shouldn't be on the terms you suggest.

[Orrex]

51. A fair question

To be honest, I only specified "guy" because of the tenor of the conversation at hand. Clearly the law must apply equally, regardless of gender.

And I think that it should be equally clear that justifiable self-defense mitigates the need for jail time.

I'd like to hear your arguments in favor of lenient treatment of domestic violence, by the way.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

59. Not necessarily *more* leniently, sometimes less so.

In some cases I think punching someone you're in a relationship with should be treated more harshly than punching a stranger.

The general point is that I think that attacks on people with whom the attacker has a massive emotional backlog and attacks on strangers or less close friends are sufficiently different in terms of what causes them, what they're likely to lead to, who commits them and why, recidivism rates and so on that they should probably be handled as *different* offences, whichever of them you think should be punished more severely.

FWIW, while it's not something I've thought about much, I would expect domestic violence cases where the victim wants it overlooked to be best solved by a more two-tone approach than other kinds: looking the other way from more minor offences more willingly than from other violence in less severe cases, and throwing the book hard enough to effectively enforce a separation in the remainder. I should stress that that's in no way, shape or form an informed or even especially a considered opinion - I don't know anyone who's had any experience of it (so far as I know) and I've never been involved in legislating on it, so there are other things I've thought it more worth while learning about.

[sarge43]

25. "how do they know"?

Obviously they don't as we can point to many members of Congress and the Bush administration who when confronted with a military draft managed to avoid it and still stay in the US. The choices were never either/or.

For the record there isn't a word in any of the draft laws precluding women from being drafted. In final months of WWII Congress came within an ace of drafting women into the Nurse Corps. Men were banned from the Corps until the mid 1950's. The kicker is the combat restriction. The draft is used to fill combat and combat related MOS and specific skill MOS such as medical as noted above.

[bloom]

29. Also - re: "Men also have had no choice (except to leave the country)"

Apparently these men have not heard about conscientious objector status. If you are against war - be against war - nobody has to fight.

[bloom]

20. (RE: "90% of all work related deaths are by men.")

People forget about the death rate experienced by pregnant women. It used to be far higher - maybe then the men didn't whine so much. As it is the maternal death rate still exceeds the work-related death rate. Women going into labor is not considered "labor" - it's what women do. (The rate wouldn't have to be that high - with better nutrition and health care).

It's 17-21 maternal deaths per 100,000 in the US (Over 500,000 women die per year worldwide).

Compared to 4 work-related deaths per 100,000. (10% of which are women and over a third of those women's death are homicides - 90% of which are committed by men)

Pregnant women and women who have recently given birth are also more likely to be killed by the man in their life than other people.

Not all women choose to be pregnant - but not all men or women work in dangerour jobs.

____________________________________________________

"Lifetime risk of maternal death" accounts for number of pregnancies and risk. In sub-Saharan Africa the lifetime risk of maternal death is 1 in 16, for developed nations only 1 in 2,800.

At the beginning of the century, maternal death rates were around their historical level of nearly 1 in 100 for live births. The number today in the United States is 1 in 10,000, a 99% decline.

In the United States, the maternal death rate was 17 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in 2000 (that did not include homicides)

http://www.answers.com/topic/maternal-death

"Pregnancy-Associated Mortality finds that homicide is the leading cause of death during pregnancy (43.4 percent) and during the "43 to 365 day period following delivery or termination of pregnancy" (23.3 percent). But the study finds that homicide accounted for only 3.6 percent of the deaths occurring within 42 days of delivery or termination of pregnancy."

http://www.letswrap.com/LetsWRAP/Spring01/page2.htm
____________________________________________________

The largest number of workers injured is in the restaurant industry, but the highest incidence of injury occurs in nursing & heavy manufacturing. (Hospitals are dangerous for patients as well as for nurses. The number of people who die annually from infections acquired in a hospital is equal to that of those who die of all forms of accident -- cars, planes, boats, falls, etc.)

For males, motor vehicle crashes & homicide are the leading causes of work-related deaths. For females, homicide is leading cause of occupational death -- accounting for more than a third of all female work-related fatalities.

The annual fatality rate among civilian workers in the United States dropped from 8.9 per 100,000 to 5.6 between 1980 and 1989. The occupations with the greatest annual chance of being a murder victim are taxi-driver (nearly 1 in 30,000), followed by convenience store worker (1 in 45,000) and gas station attendant (1 in 60,000).

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html
____________________________________________________

Total fatalities US (all sectors - including the military):
5,702(p) in 2005
Men - 5300
Women - 402

(That includes)
Homicides (private industry):
480(p) in 2005

rate - 4 per 100,000 workers

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm
____________________________________________________
Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male (rate app. 5.5 per 100,000)

Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm

[lukasahero]

22. I know I'm going to take flack for this one but

Re: "Men can whimsically be denied access to their children after divorce." The use of the term "whimsically" is obvious an exaggeration. Here's a question for these guys: what's the gender of the judge?

"Although the United States is about 51 percent female, judges have been almost exclusively male. Until the presidency of Jimmy Carter (1977-81), less than 2 percent of district judges were female, and even with conscious effort to change this phenomenon, only 14.4 percent of Carter's appointments to district judgeships were women. Racial minorities also have been underrepresented on the trial bench, not only in absolute numbers but also in comparison with figures for the overall population. Until the present time, only Jimmy Carter had appointed a significant number of non-Anglos to the federal bench -- over 21 percent. During the administration of President Bill Clinton (1993-2001), a dramatic change took place. During his first six years in office, 49 percent of his judicial appointees were either women or minorities."

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/legalotln/judges....

[omega minimo]

23. R#1 Esp. since we see echoes of these sentiments in the accusations

thrown at us here-- esp. by the serial attackers who use the same cliches and logic/reversals over and over -- this needs to go to greatest.

These pathetic creatures act like victims and come here and accuse feminist women of having a "victim mentality."




Males not recognizing the inherent gender-based inequity in society is like
Whites not recognizing the inherent race-based inequity in society.

[Triana]

26. BINGO.

"These pathetic creatures act like victims and come here and accuse feminist women of having a "victim mentality."

My manipulative, nasty, verbally abusive "friend" uses that phrase a LOT.

[lukasahero]

27. Good point about the Greatest Page. Recommended. eom

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. Yes, and they all live in my neighborhood.

If they don't want to work full-time, they should consider marrying a liberated woman, assuming she'll have him.

[leftupnorth]

38. A friend of mine had to go to anger management classes as part of

a domestic violence conviction.

He called it the "he-man woman-haters club"

sounds like that name will fit for these guys, too...

[immoderate]

40. Disgraceful!

I can't believe anyone would write this shit. It's embarrassing. Sounds like a script for Ralph Kramden.

--IMM

[Sequoia]

42. These men as children:

[Triana]

46. LOLOL!

That's funny. I can think of a guy or two whom these would 'fit' quite well.

[frogcycle]

49. It's really hard to believe

that anyone has the time and energy to come up with such drivel. Talk about making excuses for being a loser!

Someone should tell them that they have exclusive rights to being able to write their names in the snow without bending over, so they should be happy.

[Triana]

50. seems they have a particular brand of tunnel vision...

...every statement on that website can be disputed easily with simple facts and years of published research, in some cases.

I was reading the one angry dude's rant about 'games women play' wherein he stated that 'women aren't romantic' and that they don't buy men gifts.

In every relationship I've ever had *I* was the one buying flowers and gifts - and long after the guy stopped doing it if/when they did at all. I once had one guy scrape $150 worth of jewelry I'd bought him from his nightstand and dump it into the top drawer of his dresser and then move the dresser into his basement and leave it there when he got new furniture - then not understand why that bothered me.

*Women* never buy men gifts or aren't romantic eh? HA! Hoo boy.

Another example of their wicked hatred: I recently heard one of these guys (that's how I found about the websites - one guy I know is a member of NCFM) tell his 80-year old mother that she "disgusted him" because she was talking about how his dad used to beat her up when he was drunk. He went on this rant about how "men are abused by women more often than women are abused by men" and then told this woman - his 80+ year old mother who put up with his dad beating her for 20 years - that SHE "disgusted" him. My jaw was on the floor. WHAT a hateful ass. I HAD to leave - immediately. UNbelieveable. His despicable hatred, twisted facts, one-sided tunnel vision was just UNBELIEVABLE.

I hope he has the worst haunting guilt and nightmares about how he treated his mother after she's gone. He'll have to live with his words after her death and I hope they taunt him till his own death. What a JERK. I'm having her checked on by some people (friends, neighbors, social services) to make sure HE isn't abusing her too. (physically)

NO WAY does she deserve that.

I could give example after example of why all their whining is so absolutely hypocritical and outright wrong, but that would take the next two years, and would end up being a 1000-page tome in small print. Jeesus H. Friggin Keerist these guys (some of them, not all, but the whackos who put up those websites and those NCFM assholes) are twisted woman-despising pricks. They even hate their own mothers and frankly, I think they need SERIOUS therapy.

[Lars39]

55. I think I'd keep an eye on that 80yo lady for signs of elder abuse.

Cause if he's saying crap like that where people can hear him, he's probably saying much worse in private. Poor woman.

[Triana]

56. I can't imagine. It's her son and she's a neighbor..

...I've told other neighbors what he'd said last time he was over 'helping' her. Another said he'd heard the son bitching at her about something on her deck one day. We tend to keep an eye on her anyway because she's old. He stays there sometimes and always seems nice to everyone else but I could not believe he said what he said to her in front of me.

I've seen the NCFM magazine (Transitions, I believe it's called - can't remember now) laying around her house. I never paid much attention to it until after that episode and picked one up and glanced through it once on the way out of the bathroom. I saw the NCFM website listed there and quite a few shocking articles about women and how victimized men are by women. The address label had his name on it and his home address.

I KNOW this woman's history (we all do) and we know his Dad (her ex-husband). She put up with being terrorized by him for 20 years before she managed to get out. Raised 3 of her 4 kids alone after that. The son had already left home by that time. I cannot imagine, knowing what I know of this woman's life, how or why she would ever deserve for her son to say that to her after what she's been through.

But he's one of those NCFM dudes.

And, after going to that site and some of the others, the picture of how and why some men behave toward women the way they do (including men I've dated) became very clear. I knew there were men out there who were angry about the women's movement and whatever -- but had no idea they were so organized. And now, I've seen what they do and how they behave towards women. Me, and others.

So, we all make a point of going over to visit when we know he's there. Just to check on her and be 'sociable' and say hello to him. To make sure he's not physically abusing her. If there are ANY signs that he is - we're reporting it to the authorities, social services, someone. Police, to start with.

By no means do all men act this way but - wow - the ones who do - are pretty damn sick if you ask me. They need help. And they need to STAY AWAY from women. ALL women.

[bloom]

57. That is a sad thing.

Hateful sons.

One thing that I've noticed that's a problem - talking about these guys organizing. I've noticed that it can be difficult to find accurate information about domestic violence because there are certain search terms - that using them just brings up the hateful (and skewed) "men's rights" (men as victims) sites. It's a dang nuisance.

[Control-Z]

58. I hate to say this

and I hold my breath as I do but my 15 year old son is becoming a hateful son.

So many times in my life I have thought "nothing could hurt worse". Marriage to a sociopath/ narcissist was one of those times. It was a slow heart wrenching realization and seemed, if I had to score heartbreak, most devastating up to that point in time - until my children's behaviors started reflecting his hatred of me.

Lounging across the sofa with remote in hand last week my son ordered me to "just keep it clean down here". He was referring to the messes he and his sister make downstairs. The laundry they drop on the floor for me to pick up. The dirty dishes they leave in the living room (where they aren't supposed to be eating in the first place). The food wrappers and trash they throw behind the couch or stuff between the cushions. He was dead serious.

I'm sorry but I just can't. I won't. It might be different if they were young, or so busy with homework they forgot or didn't have time to pick up after themselves. But when I ask them to help they tell me to shut up - I'm interrupting their TIVO, or they just ignore me, or they call me names - the same horrible names their father has used to manipulate me. Their attitude toward me has become just like his. I am less than a doormat - something to be kicked and used - and then to be hated if I do not yield.

The morning after demanding that I "keep it clean", as my son brushed past me on the stairs (he is over 6' tall) he spat on me in disgust. My little boy, whom I love so dearly, spat on me the way a gang member would spit on a hated rival.

My son accuses me of hating men.

For what he has done to my son, I truly do hate one.

[Triana]

60. I would suggest ....

...that as soon as your son is old enough, get him out of the house, then change the locks or move. Meanwhile, see a therapist in order to help you cope. It's probably too late to do much about him but you HAVE TO CARE FOR YOURSELF. See someone - a counselor or someone you can talk with in confidence. Ask for help as to what you can do.

This kind of treatment can eat away at you after a while. It grinds you down, which it is meant to do. I just broke up with someone who was verbally abusing me - constantly, including berating me in public - in front of neighbors, at parties, social events. Constant criticism and insults. He blamed me for it all - told me I "deserved it" - that I was "imagining things" - that it was "all in my mind", the whole goddamned thing. Told me I "ask for it" (because I wasn't getting seated a quickly as he'd like at a dinner). You know that M.O. I don't have to tell you. Another time, he barged into conversations I was having with others at a party to berate me because he didn't like the questions I was asking the person. It was just senseless and there was NO WAY I "deserved" the public (OR private) abuse I got.

IN ADDITION to finding someone to talk to, please visit Amazon.com and see these three books:

The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize it and How to Respond

The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and and How All Men Can Help

Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand, and Deal With People Who Try to Control You

PLEASE GET HELP. NOW. Do it for YOU. YOU are worth it! DO NOT let anyone imprison you inside of, or abuse you based upon THEIR perception of you. What has to matter is YOUR perception of you and you have to save that to save yourself.

[Control-Z]

66. I would like to say

I've come a long way from where I was a few years ago. If it were not for the collateral damage...

This man, this Narcissist, may very well be the most evil human being I've even known but I no longer fall for his tricks. I no longer love him (and that was a tough hurdle in the beginning, believe it or not). I'm working my way to financial freedom. And the most important thing is I know he is my enemy.

But it is definitely a dance. One step forward, too many back and it is exhausting and heartbreaking at times.

I know I don't deserve a single thing he has said or done to me. I know that. No one has worked harder to make a happy home. Believe me, it was all I ever wanted. He knew that about me and the sick fuck took advantage of it.

I didn't ask to be abused. I didn't allow it or any of the other psycho bullshit I've heard. I got conned, duped, used and abused by a pro with no conscience. He would screw his own mother to inflict pain on me if he thought he had something to gain from it. He hates women while he claims to love them. What he loves is using women.

I was hoping my son would not become a man like his father. Reading this thread just touched something off in me after the way he's behaved this past week.

I'll get over being spit on. But I will never let him think it was okay. He knows it was not - not by my standards. I guess it a matter of whose standards he'll choose to live by - mine or his father's.

I will look at the books you've suggested. Every word you said is true and I appreciate your honesty. There is not enough understanding about these sick men and how they destroy lives. And there are more of them than people know.

[madmusic]

79. If you don't mind me butting in...

First, congratulations on your progress. It can't have been easy, and if you can grow some, you can grow some more. And will.

But Triana's advice about your son is everything that is wrong with feminism. You think he wouldn't sense you are only waiting for the day you can lock him out and run from him? And it isn't only about you, what you need, what you feel. That is vital, of course, but it's too late to abort your children, and wishing you could can be sensed as well.

From your posts, you don't seem to want that at all. From your posts, it seems you would rather your children grow with you - stronger, closer, more loving, and learning how to love as you learn yourself.

Believe me, there is some torment in your son and he probably doesn't understand it and wishes he could. It is your duty as a mother and as a person to try to help him if you can. He's your son, not a husband or boyfriend you can divorce or leave. It would probably take a lot of time and effort if you succeed, but both your lives will be stronger and healthier if you can make any progress at all.

The one common predictor of recidivism in sex offenders is a negative relationship with their mothers. Why? Your story maybe be one example, and if feminists really cared they would try to understand and resolve these issues rather than lock them out. As posts in this thread indicate, it sometimes seems it is easier and more fun to score points against men rather than dig into the depths of the problem.

But Triana forgot her last line, "And don't visit him in prison." Then she and the rest of the feminists can say, "See, I told you he was no good!"

Talk to him. Try family counseling. Let him know you will do all the work it takes to make it work. All the while, he will be looking for any sign of insincerity. Is this real? That's because intimacy on a personal level, love and respect, and most of all, real communication, are long forgotten and are now buried under scars of emotion, and there is something just under the scars, maybe something scary or bad. Maybe something good and really human.

It could go either way. You may not be responsible for the ultimate outcome, but it would be irresponsible not to try.

[madmusic]

80. Correction:

This study says differently:

In conclusion, the current study provides evidence that the early interpersonal experiences of offenders are overwhelmingly negative, and, for rapists and violent offenders, the most negative of these experiences were with their fathers. Another major conclusion is that negative early interpersonal experiences are characteristic of both violent and nonviolent offenders and are not specific to sexual offenders. It is possible that such experiences can be viewed as a generalized vulnerability factor resulting in a variety of offending patterns and life problems. The identification of variables further back in the etiological chain has major implications for the prevention of crime, particularly the early detection and treatment of individuals who are at risk of developing antisocial lifestyles and attitudes. (bold added)

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_2_39...

The overall point still stands, however. These people are not "born criminals." The entire study is worth a read.

My original comment about the negative relationship with the mother is not correct, either, and I mis-recalled the conclusion from a study I read a few years ago:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/ipce/library_two/han/hanson_96_t...

So though a negative relationship with the mother "significantly predicted" recidivism, it is not the "one factor" that is most predictive. My apologies for misstating it.

[bloom]

61. ....

That sounds like my nephews a few years ago - they learned some pretty crappy lessons on how to treat women from their father.

They did grow up and got over it (but that is a whole complicated story - and it wasn't easy by any means for any of them to get through it).


Unfortunately some people never do get over it - anger at women/fear of rejection, etc. I hope that is not what happens in your son's case.


________________

On edit - Triana has some good suggestions.

[Control-Z]

67. That gives me hope

I know there's a gentle caring son beneath all that anger somewhere.

I just don't see how to help him when he has such a shitty example to look up to.

I know he's torn and feels he has to choose sides.

It's hard not to tell him to side with me when I know how evil his father is.

But I try to stay as neutral as I can - which is not easy and appears to be backfiring.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

71. Why be neutral then?

To hell with that talk show bullshit about how you're supposed "be respectful" of your ex. In a normal, sort of amicable divorce between two human beings that's reasonable but...

YOUR EX IS A FUCKING MANIAC!

YOUR SON IS SPITTING ON YOU BECAUSE OF IT!!!

Acting "neutral" toward your ex and like his behavior is normal or to be tolerated is not in the their best interest of your children.

Tell them the truth.

[Stargazer09]

62. I wasn't sure how to respond.

I don't know your son, but it sounds like he's been given the wrong lessons by his father. You need to get counseling to help you properly cope with the way he's treating you. You are NOT a doormat! You do not deserve to be treated that way! A professional can help you learn how to constructively deal with his anger and abuse.

Personally, I wouldn't do as he demands. I'd take away the TIVO. Let him clean up his own messes. Sooner or later, the filth will get to him. With my sons, if they ever had the nerve to spit on me, I would have slapped their faces. However, I'm not sure if that would be helpful in your situation, with a son who believes that men are abused all of the time.

I know you've suffered a lot yourself. You wouldn't be in this situation if you hadn't. You do deserve better. I hope that you will find a way to get your entire family into counseling. Your son desperately needs it, if only to help him see the error of his ways before he marries and treats his wife the way you've been treated. It's better to stop the abuse now.

Good luck. I hope that things get better. I'll be thinking about you.

[Control-Z]

69. Thanks, Roxie

We're working on it. Things will change over time, hopefully for the better.

[Orrex]

63. A few questions--please reply or ignore as you wish

Am I correct in thinking that you are no longer with the father of these children? I conclude that this is the case, but I note that you didn't specifically say one way or the other, and I didn't want to assume either way. But if so, then I applaud your choice to get away from him! What level of contact do the children maintain with the father?

You mention that both of your children are starting to reflect the father's attitudes. Is the daughter similary hostile/aggressive? What is her age?

Is it possible that there's a biological component to these behaviors? Not that this would justify them or make them less painful/difficult for you, but it would eliminate at least some of the guesswork as to a cause and might aid in finding a solution.

Please reply only if you wish--these are intensely personal questions, of course, and I certainly understand if you'd prefer not to answer.

[Control-Z]

70. You were correct

in your thinking. I am no longer with my children's father. We are still legally married but have not lived together for quite a few years. He usually drops by once a week.

Just recently my 13 year old daughter started behaving similarly but her age could very well be the driving force.

From what I understand of Narcissistic Personality Disorder I wouldn't expect a biological component, although I have wondered.

Any insight would be welcome.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. Do not accept any such behavior from your son

"No one can respect you unless you respect yourself."

Stay calm, but let your children know that there are consequences for sassing you. Refuse to do their bidding. Don't clean up their messes. Don't even cook for them or do their laundry if they're sassy. Tell them very calmly that you don't give allowances to or cook for people who don't respect you.

Be sure to compliment them when they do something right, but don't take any shit. Take away their electronic toys and give them back only for consistent good behavior.

You children are testing you. Don't let them intimidate or blackmail you.

But get counseling for yourself and your children.

(I suspect that your daughter is imitating her brother. Kids do that.)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. I'd like to add that as the only male in the household, your son

probably thinks of himself as "the man of the house," and guess who his role model is for that.

If you have any male relatives or friends who could serve as better role models for him, you might want to urge them to spend some time with him doing "guy stuff" so that he sees that there are other ways to be a man than dumping on women.

[Mad_Dem_X]

64. "SPECIAL PRIVILEGES"???

Are you shitting me? We don't want "Special privileges" - we just want to be treated like HUMAN BEINGS, with DIGNITY and RESPECT! Is that so hard to understand?

What a bunch of whiney asswipes.

[Triana]

68. exactly....

...that's the same thing "gays" want too, according to some. Wanting to be treated with dignity and respect is a "special privilege" to all but hetero (white) guys?

Huh.

[LetsThink]

73. From VA ? GEORGE ALLEN VOTES AGAINST WOMEN......

Allen is trying to make his opponent, Democrat Jim Webb look like he's terrible to women. Jim Webb opened more military billets to women than any other Navy Secretary; his campaign is run by women; more and more -- Read Taylor Marsh's article on how Mr. Webb's opponent, Republican encumbent Senator George Allen, has voted on women's issues.

Taylor Marsh says: "Women can't afford to have George Allen sent back to the Senate.
Virginia, it's up to you."


Taylor Marsh writes in her article:
"This isn't fiction. It's George Allen's votes against women. Why would a man of good conscience vote against aiding victims of sexual assault? 2004: Allen Voted Against Expanding The Family And Medical Leave Act To Cover Victims of Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault. In 2004, Allen voted against a proposal that would expand the Family and Medical Leave Act to ..."

By: Taylor Marsh: George Allen Votes Against Women
HuffingtonPost Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:55 AM PDT
by Taylor Marsh

Here's a link to the full story:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/taylor-marsh/george-allen...


Some of Marsh's points from the article:

2004: Allen Voted Against Expanding The Family And Medical Leave Act To Cover Victims of Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault.

1988: Allen Opposes Rights of Women Sexually Assaulted in the Workplace.

George Allen Votes Against Victims of Sexual Assault and Domestic Violence

George Allen is the only incumbent running with a record of voting against women's interests, including the victims of sexual assault. Voting against helping women recover from sexual assault? Voting against expanding the Family and Medical Leave Act to include sexual assault victims? Voting against allowing a woman to sue her attacker? What kind of man does that?

[Triana]

75. George F*ing Allen ought to join the NCFM ...

..if he's not already a member and I suspect most Repube men are, at least in mentality if not formally. What kind of man does that?

An Angry White Male

[LetsThink]

74. CLANK.......whoosh, CLUNK.... Sound of garbage going in

... the garbage can ! Trouble is they get a lot of men to buy into this junk. It's like honey-dew feed for neo-nazi and white supremacist groups, too. OK, guess they'd rather have beer....

[NMMNG]

76. What a bunch of pathetic losers

I can't help but laugh at them, because there's nothing in there worth taking seriously.

[Hello_Kitty]

83. There is a DUer who is probably a card-carrying member of this group.

In arguments I've had with him he regurgitates this rhetoric almost word for word.

[Triana]

86. I suspect there is more than one!

Considering some of the various comments I've seen in some posts here.

[summerfeminista]

87. Amazing.

All I have to say is Wow. The fact that such rigged opinions still exist is heart breaking. It just goes to show that we have a long way to go. The scariest part is that these men must have wives etc. who are also buying into this ideology and then passing it on to their children.