German battlefield yields Roman surprises (CNN)

[eppur_se_muova]

HANOVER, Germany (CNN) -- Archaeologists have found more than 600 relics from a huge battle between a Roman army and Barbarians in the third century, long after historians believed Rome had given up control of northern Germany.

"We have to write our history books new, because what we thought was that the activities of the Romans ended at nine or 10 (years) after Christ," said Lutz Stratmann, science minister for the German state of Lower Saxony. "Now we know that it must be 200 or 250 after that."

For weeks, archeologist Petra Loenne and her team have been searching this area with metal detectors, pulling hundreds of ancient Roman weapons out of the ground. They paint a picture of a highly organized, technologically superior Roman army beset by Germanic tribes in a forest about 80 km (50 miles) south of the modern city of Hanover.

The hillside battlefield was discovered by relic-hunters illegally searching for souvenirs of more recent wars near the town of Kalefeld-Oldenrode. One of them brought some of the items he found to Loenne, who works for the local government.

The artifacts are so well preserved that the scientists can already retrace some of the battle lines.
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more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/05/germany.battlefield/index.html

This caught my eye partly because I had read "The Battle That Stopped Rome", about the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in AD 9. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Cool! :^)

[Posteritatis]

2. Nice; wonder if they were actually Romans, though

The Alemanni and Marcomanni went out of their way to equip themselves in the Roman style shortly after they first had the legions happen to them, so it might be an imitator across the border. Of course, if they were actual Romans that would be something else, especially if it was during the third century chaos.

[TygrBright]

3. Lost Legions of Quintus Varus found...

"We took a wrong turn on the Autobahn..."

This is extremely cool. I look forward to reading the analysis.

interestedly,
Bright

[Trajan]

5. Exactly what I was thinking ...

Varus in the Teutoberg Forest, and the fabled lost Eagles ....

The Battle of Teutoberg Forest was in 9 AD - The Eagles were in fact repatriated, which I did not know/remember ...

An interesting epilog to the Varus disaster, from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest

Note that one battle was near Hanover ...

Roman Retaliation

Though the shock at the slaughter was enormous, the Romans immediately began a slow, systematic process of preparing for the reconquest of the country. In AD 14, just after Augustus' death and the accession of his heir and stepson Tiberius, a massive raid was conducted by the new emperor's nephew Germanicus, followed the next year by two major campaigns with a large army estimated at 70,000 men, backed by naval forces. He was able to devastate large areas and eliminate any form of active resistance, but the majority of the Germanic tribespeople fled at the sight of the Roman army into remote forests. The raids were considered a success since the major goal of destroying any rebel alliance networks was completed. After initial successes, including the capture of Arminius' wife Thusnelda, the army visited the site of the first battle. According to Tacitus, they found heaps of bleached bones and severed skulls nailed to trees, which they buried, "looking on all as kinsfolk and of their own blood". Burial pits with remains fitting this description have been found at Kalkriese Hill.

In spite of doubts on the part of his uncle, Emperor Tiberius, Germanicus managed to raise another huge army and invaded Germania again the next year, in 16 AD. He forced a crossing of the Weser near modern Minden, suffering heavy losses, and then met Arminius' army at Idistaviso, further up the Weser, near modern Rinteln, in an engagement often called the Battle of the Weser River. Germanicus's leadership and command qualities were shown in full at the battle as his superior tactics and better trained and equipped legions inflicted huge casualties on the Germanic armies with only minor losses. One final battle was fought at the Angivarian Wall west of modern Hanover, repeating the pattern of high Germanic fatalities forcing them to flee. With his main objectives reached and with winter approaching Germanicus ordered his army back to their winter camps, with the fleet occasioning some damage by a storm in the North Sea. Although only a small number of soldiers died it was still a bad ending for a brilliantly fought campaign. After a few more raids across the Rhine, which resulted in the recovery of two of the three legions' eagles lost in AD 9, Germanicus was recalled to Rome and informed by Tiberius that he would be given a triumph and reassigned to a different command.<2> <3>

The third standard was recovered in AD 41 by Publius Gabinius from the Chauci during the reign of Claudius, brother to Germanicus, according to Cassius Dio in Roman History Book LX {Book 60} Chapter 8. Possibly the recovered aquilae were placed within the Temple of the Avenging Mars, (Tempio di Mars Ultor), the ruins of which stand today in the Forum of Augustus by the Via dei Fori Imperiali in Rome.

The last chapter of this story is recounted by the historian Tacitus, in Annales (xii.27). Around AD 50, bands of Chatti invaded Roman territory in Germania Superior, possibly an area in Hesse east of the Rhine which the Romans appear to have still held, and began to plunder. The Roman commander, Lucius Pomponius, raised a force from the Vangiones and Nemetes supported by Roman cavalry. They attacked the Chatti from both sides and defeated them, and joyfully found and liberated some of the men from Varus' legions, who had been held in slavery for 40 years.


After Teutoberg, Augustus was sometimes heard to moan; "Quintilie Vare, legiones redde!" ("Quinctilius Varus, give me back my Legions!")

[Posteritatis]

6. The time they suggest for the site's the weird/neat part

They make a big deal about the quality of preservation of the artifacts they found. It's very easy to date Roman army equipment, or at least some parts of it like helmets, to very specific date ranges - if it looks like this, it's from this period or later, etc. If they found materials that make them say it's a third-century site, then it's definitely not from Germanicus' or Claudius' campaigns. There's also indications that the Romans won the battle; coverage makes a big deal about how obvious the line of battle is, while at the Teutoberg site there's this kilometers-long spray of jettisoned debris as the army fled and scattered.

That just makes it weirder, because if it was anytime other than the early third century - and I've seen stuff suggesting it was midcentury - then it was a period where there was enough chaos at home in Rome that they wouldn't really be able to get away with sending legions that far into the boonies. The Romans' European frontiers collapsed during the third century crises, and they spent way more time trying to repel invasions or marching against other Roman armies to be launching large, incredibly expensive and risky invasions into the Roman equivalent of "darkest Africa."

That suggests that this isn't just something relating to the Varian legions or the retaliation for their loss - it's something that we not only never heard about, but which just doesn't make sense given what records we do have of Roman history at the time. It's this big garish "what you thought you knew is Wrong!" sign in the middle of Germany, which means calling it an interesting discovery is one hell of an understatement. It's like finding a Civil War battlefield dating to the 1880s. In Winnipeg.

Also, I really really really really really really really really hope they find an Eagle. No one's ever found a Roman standard; they're one of the archaeological grails.

[centvrio]

7. Kalefeld battlefield

This battle can uneqivocally be dated to summer A.D. 235 and was part of Maximinus Thrax's punitive campaign against the Alamanni for the widespread devastation they caused in Raetia, Noricum, and Germania Superior in A.D. 233, taking advantage of Alexander Severus's removal of some army units from both the upper danube and rhine frontiers for his war against the Persians under Ardashir in 231 A.D.

[Sequoia]

4. I read that book you mention.

That part about the German barbarians winding body parts around trees was pretty gruesome to say the least.

[oceanman]

8. Roman Surprises

A few weeks ago one of the cable history channels ran all of the 'Barbarians' series with Terry Jones as the moderator, for lack of a better term. Fascinating stuff. All I'll say about it is, if you get the chance to see it, it's definitely worth watching. The many of the so-called 'Barbarian' cultures had very sophisticated societies - which will leave you wondering who were the real 'Barbarians'. The scary part was realizing the parallels to current events. I'll leave at that.

[eppur_se_muova]

9. Welcome to DU! and thanks for the post.

Interesting to note that the original meaning of the term "barbarian" is just "someone who speaks another language" ... bar, bar, bar was apparently the (ancient) Greek equivalent of blah, blah, blah or yadda,yadda,yadda, more or less.