"What If Vitamin D Deficiency Is a Cause of Autism?" — Scientific American, April 24, 2009 - x

[tiptoe]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=49922&mesg_id=58433

[trotsky]

1. Then the anti-vax loons will have a lot of apologies to make.

However one rather significant data point that a Vitamin D theory can't explain is why boys are 4 times more likely to be autistic than girls. Or why autism is supposedly an "epidemic" that arose in the late 1980s / early 90s.

Should be interesting to see how continuing research pans out.

[uppityperson]

2. Obviously because boys don't go outside as much as girls. duh

I consider some of the "epidemic" due to changing diagnostic standards. Rather like more people used to be diagnosed with "schizophrenia" than are now since the standards there got more specific. Perhaps a bunch of them would not be dx with autism?

[tiptoe]

3. Why are boys at higher risk? "...totally unknown...However, there is a clue or two..."

Why are boys at higher risk?

The reason for the striking 4:1 sex difference is totally unknown. However, there is a clue or two. Estrogen and testosterone have very different effects on vitamin D metabolism. In mid-pregnancy, when brains are rapidly developing, boy brains bathe in testosterone and girl brains bathe in estrogen. The majority of studies have found estrogen has multiple enhancing effects on vitamin D metabolism while testosterone does not. For example, in Feldman's massive textbook on vitamin D, Dr. Epstein and Dr. Schneider report, "the majority of studies have found a positive effect of estrogen on activated vitamin D levels." Yet, after reviewing similar studies on testosterone they conclude that "it is unlikely that testosterone is a major controlling factor in vitamin D metabolism." If estrogen potentiates activated vitamin D, but testosterone does not, the differences in sex steroids during brain development may mean that estrogen protects developing female brains from vitamin D deficiencies, while testosterone exposes male brains to those same deficiencies. This is important because any good theory must be parsimonious (explain all known facts).

source: http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/health/autism/vit-D-explains-autism.shtml

 

[trotsky]

4. Which is why I said we'll have to wait until the research is done.

Feel free however to leap to conclusions if you wish.

[Tumbulu]

5. So why is there such a huge decrease in Vitamin D lately?

I mean everything I read is now somehow tied to Vitamin D deficiency. What gives- is Vitamin D really cheap to produce and some manufacturer is trying to get lots of people to buy it (and thus funding all this research)? Are people really going outside so much less than they used to? Are confined animals producing milk, cheese, eggs and meat with way less vitamin D since they are not allowed to graze in the sunshine and eating fresh growing plants?

Why is Vitamin D constantly being brought up lately?

[Why Syzygy]

6. Milk is "fortified" with D

Cod liver oil 200-700
Fish (salmon, sardines, tuna) 5-12
Margarine 5-6
Eggs 1-2
Butter 4-1.2
Cheese .1-.3

Milk, meat, fruit and vegetables are not significant sources of this vitamin.

http://healthyeatingclub.com/info/books-phds/books/foodfacts/html/data/data3c.html

[tiptoe]

7. RDA supplementation reduction. Example: Finland, 1964-92,...4500-to-2000-to-1000-to-400 IU, with

the beginning of a steady "epidemic" rise, followed by yet a sharper rise in incidents in children (lte 14) of Type I Diabetes post-1992.

See charts at 38:13 Vitamin D and Diabetes-Can We Prevent it?

43:01 Finding: 8 out of 10 cases could be reduced. But no action taken since 2000 recommendation (Lancet), stayed at minumum of 400 IU.

 

[tiptoe]

8. "People using sunscreen are precisely the people who shouldn't"

Skin Cancer/Sunscreen - the Dilemma

19:30
16 Case-control Studies of- Sunscreen Use and Melanoma
4 found protective
5 no relationship
7 found Increased risk associated with Sunscreen use

20:12
Latitude study of the 16 case studies

"People using sunscreen are precisely the people who shouldn't"

21:45
Human Photoprotective Response - evolved over millenia
"Sunscreens inhibit Human Photoprotective response."

[trotsky]

9. UV light is stronger now than it used to be due to ozone loss.

It is highly irresponsible to tell people not to use sunscreen. We *know* too much sun exposure *will* cause cancer. We don't *know* for sure if Vitamin D is the cure all for every malady suffered by human beings. So let's err on the side of safety, shall we?

[tiptoe]

11. And since the words were clearly *quoted* -- those of Edward Gorham, M.P.H., PhD,

source-linked, and with time-stamp responsibly provided for readers (even you) to access the full context of his words ("19:30...21:20 -- 16 Case-control Studies of Sunscreen Use and Melanoma'): Far from an accurate representation of *that* time-segment's concluding words — "People using sunscreen are precisely the people who shouldn't" (related to latitudinal studies) — you co-opt Dr. Gorhams's words, take them out of cited context, accuse the messenger of irresponsibly dismissing sunscreens, but only manage, thereby, to effectively, implicitly accuse Dr. Gorham of having done so, since the words are his, taken out of context by you.

In fairness to Dr. Gorham, he does not "...tell people not to use sunscreen". At 30:50, in a context unrelated to the one you ignored above, Dr. Gorham advises "Use sunscreens cautiously" and even recommends TWO types of sunscreen for use: Titanium Oxide and Zinc Oxide, i.e. opaque sunscreens, if opting for sunscreens besides hats and clothing. Presumably, you'd not have mis-conveyed any implication of Dr. Gorham's earlier words -- "People using sunscreen are precisely the people who shouldn't" -- if you'd have watched the video and attended both to their context and to Dr. Gorham's later comments.

Off-the-mark misinformation from you.

So, even before safety, let's err on the side of accuracy and fairness, before we recklessly distort and accuse, shall we?

Other uncalled-for "stuff" you've offered:

"Feel free however to leap to conclusions if you wish." -- Unfounded, uncalled-for insinuation. Not nice. Information can be entertained as tentative hypothesis; allows one to be open to new information and to continually re-assess all information.

"We don't *know* for sure if 'Vitamin D is the cure all for every malady'" -- Right from the start, the OP's excerpted article I provided specifically spells out, for anyone able and willing to read for avoiding "leaping to conclusion" (which, by your very commenting, you apparently "feel free" to do, anyway):

"...No one is proposing that vitamin D is a panacea, however it seems to provide part of the sturdy framework for our physical and mental well being."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=49922&mesg_id=49922

 

[trotsky]

13. I'm not criticizing Dr. Gorham, I'm criticizing YOU.

Because what he says, and what YOU say, are two different things.

[tiptoe]

14. wrong, as usual. nt

[uppityperson]

12. Follow the money

that's my theory

[bluedawg12]

18. It seems to be framed around epidemiology and then an attempt to draw a causal relationship.

For example, so goes one pro-VitD theory as the cause and cure for all ailments from autism, to cancer, to the flu, namely, the flu seems to cluster around winter, sunlight is less in winter, then comes the 1/2 truth: lot's of people are VitD deficient in their diet and with less sunlight they are even more deficient. Therefore, low VitD causes the flu and taking VitD, often sold by willing vitamin merchants, is the cure to the flu!

Rather than any other link,such as in the winter kids are in school and get sick and bring it home to their parents.

Or shopping around Halloween,Thanksgiving and Christmas brings people into contact in indoor malls and stores.

[mzmolly]

17. Sunscreen? Skin cancer prevention? The "stay out of the sun" advice?

:shrug:

[google ogler]

25. Um...ever heard of SPF 129? Lawl....

Too many 'bots bought into the 'evil sun' crapola and hence, we now have D deficiency.

[cosmik debris]

10. That is sure going to hurt a lot of parents

If they discover that their child's autism could have been prevented with a healthy diet.

There will be a lot of guilt.

[bluedawg12]

15. "The idea, although not yet tested or widely held..."

says it all.

Your link to your own DU link whihc leads to the origianl article does not work for Sci.Am as you posted.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=vitamin-d-and-autism&page=1

[mzmolly]

16. For those who suggest a vitamin D connection to autism would end the vaccine debate,

I suggest you haven't been following the debate very carefully.

From http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/neuroimmunopath/autism.htm">Johns Hopkins ~

Current evidence suggests that neurobiological abnormalities in autism are associated with changes in cytoarchitectural and neuronal organization that may be determined by genetic, environmental, immunological and toxic factors.

1) Various studies demonstrate that vitamin D helps eliminate mercury from the body.

2) Autism is thought (by some) to be partially related to an immune reaction after vaccination. (See #3)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16360218

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/citation/2004/1116/1

http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/neuroimmunopath/autism_faqs.htm

"the presence of microscopic and immunological findings showing neuroimmune reactions in all of our autistic patients and the cytokine findings in the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) support a potential role for neuroglia and neuroinflammation in the CNS effects in a number of individuals with autism."

3) http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/51913.php">Vitamin D ... "increases production of antimicrobial peptides while simultaneously preventing the immune system from releasing too many inflammatory cells, called chemokines and cytokines..."

So, if vaccines are one factor in the development of autism via say an immune response or an inability to effectively eliminate mercury, perhaps increasing vitamin D intake in those who are vulnerable/deficient, would be a prudent preventative measure prior to vaccination?

If we seek full understanding vs. the suppression of evidence, we'll perhaps find answers that we all can agree on.

[bluedawg12]

19. Cytokines, VitD and vaccines relate to autism from your two links?

http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/neuroimmunopath/autism_faqs.htm
The two John's Hopkins references above Discusse cytokines.

"What type of immune reactions are present in the brain of autistic patients?
In our study, we have demonstrated a marked increase in neuroglial responses, characterized by activation of microglia and astroglia, in the brains of autistic patients. These increased neuroglial responses are likely part of neuroinflammatory reactions associated with the central nervous system's (CNS) innate immune system. In innate immune reactions of the CNS, microglial activation is the main cellular response to CNS dysfunction. This is in contrast to adaptive immune responses, in which lymphocyte and/or antibody mediated reactions are the dominant responses. In our sample of autistic patients, microglial and astroglial activation was present in the absence of lymphocyte infiltration or immunoglobulin deposition in the CNS. It also was associated with increased production of pro-inflammatory and anti-inflammatory cytokines such as MCP-1 and TGFß-1 by neuroglia."

"If there is neuroinflammation in the brain of some autistic patients, is treatment with anti-inflammatory or immunomodulatory medications indicated?
At present, THERE IS NO indication for using anti-inflammatory medications in patients with autism. Immunomodulatory or anti-inflammatory medications such as steroids (e.g. prednisone or methylprednisolone), immunosupressants (e.g. Azathioprine, methotrexate, cyclophosphamide) or modulators of immune reactions (e.g. intravenous immunoglobulins, IVIG) WOULD NOT HAVE a significant effect on neuroglial activation because these drugs work mostly on adaptive immunity by reducing the production of immunoglobulins, decreasing the production of T cells and limiting the infiltration of inflammatory cells into areas of tissue injury. Our study demonstrated NO EVIDENCE at all for these types of immune reactions. There are ongoing experimental studies to examine the effect of drugs that limit the activation of microglia and astrocytes, but their use in humans must await further evidence of their efficacy and safety."
............

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16360218

J Neuroimmunol. 2006 Mar;172(1-2):198-205. Epub 2005 Dec 19. Links
Elevated cytokine levels in children with autism spectrum disorder.Molloy CA, Morrow AL, Meinzen-Derr J, Schleifer K, Dienger K, Manning-Courtney P, Altaye M, Wills-Karp M.
Center for Epidemiology and Biostatistics, Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center, and Department of Pediatrics, University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, Cincinnati, OH 45229-3039, United States. [email protected]

This study compared production of IL-2, IFN-gamma, IL-4, IL-13, IL-5 and IL-10 in peripheral blood mononuclear cells from 20 children with autism spectrum disorder to those from matched controls. Levels of all Th2 cytokines were significantly higher in cases after incubation in media alone, but the IFN-gamma/IL-13 ratio was not significantly different between cases and controls. Cases had significantly higher IL-13/IL-10 and IFN-gamma/IL-10 than controls. Conclusion: Children with ASD had increased activation of both Th2 and Th1 arms of the adaptive immune response, with a Th2 predominance, and without the compensatory increase in the regulatory cytokine IL-10.

[mzmolly]

20. I'm sorry

what is the specific point you're trying to make?

[bluedawg12]

21. You made a point and then yout posted these two links - I'm not following.

What's the connection between what you said and cyotkines? :shrug:

[mzmolly]

22. Sorry if I wasn't very clear on that part. I'll try again.

Of course, I'm merely speculating but obviously, vaccines work by stimulating our immune response ~

http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v11/n4s/full/nm1210.html

The immune system has evolved two main functions: to react quickly (within minutes) to molecular patterns found in microbes, and to develop slowly (over days to weeks), precisely targeted specific adaptive immune responses. The faster-acting innate immune responses provide a necessary first line of defense because of the relatively slow nature of adaptive immunity5. In contrast, adaptive immunity uses selection and clonal expansion of immune cells harboring made-to-order somatically rearranged receptor genes (T- and B-cell receptors) recognizing antigens from the pathogen, thereby providing specificity and long-lasting immunological memory6. Innate immune responses, among their many effects, lead to a rapid burst of inflammatory cytokines and activation of antigen-presenting cells (APCs) such as macrophages and dendritic cells. These nonclonal responses also lead to a conditioning of the immune system for subsequent development of specific adaptive immune responses.

And, some studies indicate http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16360218?log$=activity">elevated cytokine levels in children with autism spectrum disorder. So, given vitamin D appears to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16600924">suppresses pro-inflammatory cytokines, I wondered if vitamin D may be an effective preventive measure in autism, as it potentially relates to vaccination/immune response?

I'm out, have a nice day. :hi:

Edited for spelling.

[bluedawg12]

23. I got you. Thanks!

Here is something I found on kids along these lines.

Thanks for the explanation. Enjoy your day. :hi:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15741748?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

Dysregulated innate immune responses in young children with autism spectrum disorders: their relationship to gastrointestinal symptoms and dietary intervention.Jyonouchi H, Geng L, Ruby A, Zimmerman-Bier B.
Department of Pediatrics, New Jersey Medical School, UMDNJ, Newark, NJ 07101-1709, USA.

"...Thus our findings indicate intrinsic defects of innate immune responses in GI(+) ASD children but not in NFH or GI(-) ASD children, suggesting a possible link between GI and behavioral symptoms mediated by innate immune abnormalities."

[mzmolly]

24. Indeed it would appear that the immune system

reacts differently to various environmental factors, in many of those who have been diagnosed with autism.

Thanks for sharing.