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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:44 PM
Original message
why furry is a GBLT issue.
Furry is not simply a fetish,for many furs it is an IDENTITY.

I am feline inside and if anyone can't handle it,fuck'em. I'll give them my claw to their face if they get violent with me.

Ever bother to ask yourself...What is an identity anyway?
http://www.unknownnews.net/040227a-panther.html

Everyone gets a fake identity(ies) IMPOSED upon us from childhood on,from sick parents,a sick society. Most people change who they are in thier lifetimes.. some may try to make due with what they are given, others accept it with suffering and will take pains to deny or hide it, and some who are creative or just can't deal with that level of fake can't tolerate such stifling imposed social roles..They will invent their own damn identity.And no, my imagination is part of who I am and I will be who I am it is me and I am it..I will be feline and re-create myself as I a see fit and I will be happy in the way that works for ME.Regardless of whom may label it sick or claim fur is not a legitimate identity. I will be feline.That sort of bigotry is aimed at anyone who strays from the stifling sickening social norm.

An so, if you do not like the idea a person sees them self as different or more than human, more than the biological determined DNA their parents gave them, and social roles meted out like prefab social cages put on all children so they become 'productive normal adults'...So what is the big deal to you if one sees themselves differently than you think is legit? Are furries ruining your life by being different,and being whatever species they are inside and looking like that being? Doesn't that complaint of the fur bigots sound so familiar to every gay,trans person on earth?? And because the bigotry is aimed at those with a furry identity somehow that isn't bigoted to them? WTF? Bigotry always has the same ugly preferences.
http://www.unknownnews.net/040131d-up.html


Why scorn furries? If you are gay you are aware you are transgressing the silly heterosexual sex roles enforced by this sick culture, in order to be yourself and love whom you love.So why have issues with furries for?? Furries are doing the same thing as any social transgressor sickened by the banal limits society imposes upon us all.. does.. If you are transgender you are transgressing the silly dual gender roles made up by this sick society, and you feel the bigots stinging words and fists..Furries are doing this transgressing all 'deviants' from the 'norms' do in their own way.if you are furry you are transgressing the sickness of a human centered anthropocentric society,and a social transgressor will have to re-build an identity based upon the beings you love and relate to on a deep level..It is the path to liberation.WE all seek liberation.Some seek it as non human.
I am transgender bi,asexual and furry. My identity is my own creation .

I find in my life,felines embody the noble qualities I admire. Things I do not often see in humans.So I wish to be like them because to me cats are the best friends there are,and they are most beautiful to me.My tattoos and feline appearance is a homage to them,and my felineness is a spiritual,and very real thing to me..And I feel happy with my fur flying wherever I wander.. and I spit upon those who would rather me be something else than what I want to be,and deny me what makes me happy.

Humanity often makes me sick inside.I do not like feeling sick. So I reject society , reject my gender role, the sexuality I was born in and I reject the human species,I reject everything that I find to me is toxic . And so I rebel against all the stupid mental/emotional/physical cages .Many of these traps exist to please someone else, a parent, the community,the school,or to make the insecure people out there feel safe or in control,or to soothe the savage ego trip of the anthro-centric asshole... I admit it there is alot I hate about the human world and this sick culture. The injury it causes me so I do not want to be part of it. And so, I walk away from it in my own way.And I found other furries others who also walk beside me outside the wall.

Every time a person transgresses a popular cultural lie,or 'role' there is backlash aimed at them.. My soul is feline,and to walk among people as a human it hurts me just as much as being in a female body (modified partly thankfully) with a male mind hurts me, Because for me, furry is an IDENTITY. I have had enough of bowing in to the pain and pressure of superficial social conformity,I am what I want to be.. Any controversy my fur creates does not matter to me anymore.I see it as the bigotry it is.


Any people who cannot handle the furries.. maybe they need to grow up and let other people find what and who they are and want to be inside and quit the control and bigoted bullshit. Nobody likes to be forced into a self image that is false..

Everyone has a right to find what gives them happiness in this miserable world if it respects others consent. Truth is everyone has an identity, you can take what is given to you or build your own..Furries build their own,and in this world you would be wise to embrace beauty wherever you can find it, for this world can be very cold,evil, ugly and sick to the most beautiful and tender things. Embrace the beauty even if the beauty exists mostly in the imaginal realm..it has a right to be here too.


My furry persona.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. you said it!
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 05:03 PM by eShirl
:thumbsup:

(I'm not a member of furrydom but I'm furry-friendly.)
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. thanks eshirl
And a purr to you.This cat's gotcha back...
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. I can't condemn furries...
...but neither can I deny that they totally creep me out.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Some people say
gays creep them out ya know..
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. Sexual preference is something you're born with, NOT a lifestyle choice.
Thus, I'm not creeped out at all by homosexuality--it's the most natural thing in the world. Hell, if gay people bothered me, I wouldn't be working in the world of musical theater.

But furriness IS a lifestyle choice. No one comes out of the womb wearing an anatomically-correct bunny suit.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. not all furries
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 10:29 PM by undergroundpanther
wear fur suits. I don't wear one yet I am feline.I have a feline soul.I do not identify as human.I don't identify as female either, yet I came out of the womb with a female body I could not stand being in once it matured. Do you think I should have just accepted my identity as my body presented it? Even if it would have eventually tormented me to suicide? Should I hide the fact I am asexual and just tolerate sex because my body has that part in it,even tho I don't enjoy it?? I got top surgery.I am in process of getting striped tattoos to erase the humanness.This is part of MY self determination.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. OK, I take it back. Clearly, furriness isn't at all creepy.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. thanks
get to know some of us furs, you might find we are a fun bunch of critters....
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Meeker Morgan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. You do not identify as HUMAN?
That is not sane. Period.
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RedXIII Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. but can we,,
really define normal, we can't.

Because most people are left-handed,some are right-handed,some have blue eyes,some people have green eyes, some have blond hair,some people have red hair, some like stamp collecting,some dress up like a Viking during a football game,some do scrapbooks,some have different hobbies, so people can never really be classified as normal.
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Meeker Morgan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Are furries human? Even if they don't "identify" as human?
Yes or no?

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #48
141. And really, what is human? Do we really know?
I'm puzzled and surprised by the level of rejection I'm reading here from GLBT folks. Sheesh. Why would we want to reject somebody who wants to join queerdom?
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
81. Why must I identify as a human?
Because my body is? I don't identify as female,tho my body was born that way,People "get it" about transgender finally,. I'm not anthropocentric like what humans think is so damn important. Why do you want to identify as a human?
Look at humanity ,it is a brutal, selfish,greedy, ugly, overbearing species,a large part of it sucks.They kill planets.I am disgusted at the human race. Do you like identifying with humanity the murderous insane species that calls itself sane?
(yes I know there are exceptions)
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #81
91. If you're so disgusted by us, stop asking to join in.
You might as well be a homophobe complaining that gays don't embrace them.
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Meeker Morgan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #81
97. You are human. Not just your body. You hate of your kind.
Edited on Fri Apr-11-08 07:09 PM by Meeker Morgan
Bag your "identity". You are insane.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #46
176. Humans are not sane. Period.
The vast majority of us are mean biting monkeys of some sort.
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I work for workers Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. A month ago you were complaining that SSDI wasn't paying you enough to live
and making vague threats of violence unless people agreed to pay you to be homeless. Now you are paying for cosmetic surgery and tattoos?

I suppose I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is real. Everyone else seems to be. I couldn't care less about how you decide to live.

But if this is a(nother) stupid joke making fun of the mentally ill and/or the GLBT community then it's not funny at all.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #50
66. umm
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 10:26 PM by undergroundpanther
I saved up for around 5 years for that chest recon,my mother helped too. As for tattoos I am being done by an apprentice,.practice skin. He goes slowly so it is more pain and more time,it is a reputable shop that uses autoclaves,I offer my skin and my time,and my art skill,in exchange for my dream to be made real.That's how things get done when you are poor, if you are resourceful.

You have a snotty elitist additude,make a hell of a lot of assuming about me,and a nasty little cold heart too btw.
Must suck to be you.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #50
77. Chest reconstructive surgery is a transissue and underground panther is trans.
In addition to being a furry. A lot of people have benefit parties to raise the money for such surgeries. It is psychologically humiliating for FTMs and male identified folks to have to go to work with large breasts. Many resort to binding, which is physically dangerous (causes back injuries and destroys the chest tissue.)

It's not a furry issue. It's a trans issue. For some guys who are very passable it's an employment issue. Your T might be $10 a week, but if you're a size D cup you're not getting a job--especially not without a trans-inclusive ENDA.
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BillSam Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. Jeez
not every gay person adores musical theater and not every person in musical theater is gay (or hairdressers and all the rest).

Haven't you ever heard of bears, for crying out loud!
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. Bears are as capable of enjoying a musical as anyone else.
Not every gay person is into theater or musicals. But of those people who are into those things, there is a somewhat disproportionate gay representation.
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BillSam Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #53
75. Is there a link to the poll?
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Creativity makes life bearable.
We create the path to find our way.

And that was an accidental pun up there.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Yeah
It does,, without creativity life would be one catasstrophy after another ..(intentional pun)
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. I love your persona
did you create it yourself, or did someone else?
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I did
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 06:20 PM by undergroundpanther
The only hand others may have had in it, is by being abusive shitheads,to the point I am disgusted by how humans abuse humans.
If it's the artwork, you refer to, yes I made it ,it is a scan of one of my drawings than I enhanced it by photoshoping it..
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. An honest, non-threatening question...
Do you identify with an idealized version of "noble, affectionate" felines or do accept that "real" felines...the ones in the wild...are, at times, savage killers and exhibit many behaviors that most people see as cruel (like all other animals)?
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. yes I know that
And do you likewise admit humans are more savage than all the animals put together? Because they ARE. Can you admit civilization is brutal sick reaction to the indifferent impersonal fact that nature is cruel,and this whole existence hurts, when you are part of it??

At least felines do not have these rigid stupid human type social hierarchies,which is one of the most evil and stupid things to exist,thankfully only in social environs.Cats do a thing similar to time sharing. The other hideously evil social thing humans and some other species( like ducks) do is rape each other .Cats don't rape... In fact, it is almost impossible to rape a female cat. She is simply equipped with too many weapons.

(a lesson many women need to take to heart,learn to attack an attacker). So you'd think humans with all that pretense to grandiosity and kindness would be past this abusive shit,the ignorance greed and ego and humanity would have the compassion so humans would be safe from human rapists by now, but.no. Male and some female humans think giving a female or child weapons to fight off rapists is a horrible idea...Humans are stupid and vile in a billion ways.I am embarrassed to be born a human.But I also know there are plenty of exceptions,kind people,almost catlike in their nobility out there too.

http://catodyssey.blogspot.com/2007/02/feline-aggressio...


Cats didn't invent nukes,nor do they go traveling to the other side of the globe to overkill others nor do cats bother to invent corporations...and give them license to destroy everything..Cats sometimes torture mice, birds they catch, they kill for sport sometimes like humans do I know.Because they are successful predators.I don't think our civilized stupidity is all because we have brains and thumbs,people might be smart intellectually but emotionally so many are sick or stunted,trapped in a mind game.
At least among felines they can rest together,socialize without alot of the bullshit assumptions some people put upon expressions of simple affection.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I am very impressed...congrats
on a great piece of work.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. puurrrrr
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. I respect your right to whatever identity you feel is right, but it's not a GLBT issue...
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 06:55 PM by FreepFryer
You said:

If you are gay you are aware you are transgressing the silly heterosexual sex roles enforced by this sick culture, in order to be yourself and love whom you love.So why have issues with furries for?? Furries are doing the same thing as any social transgressor sickened by the banal limits society imposes upon us all.. does.. If you are transgender you are transgressing the silly dual gender roles made up by this sick society, and you feel the bigots stinging words and fists..Furries are doing this transgressing all 'deviants' from the 'norms' do in their own way.if you are furry you are transgressing the sickness of a human centered anthropocentric society,and a social transgressor will have to re-build an identity based upon the beings you love and relate to on a deep level..It is the path to liberation.WE all seek liberation.Some seek it as non human.
I am transgender bi,asexual and furry. My identity is my own creation .


If the commonality is 'transgressing social roles', then furries have that in common with a lot more than just 'GLBT' folks - transgressing social roles is certainly not exclusive to sexual or gender (or 'species') identity.

So, I disagree that 'furries' are in the GLBT umbrella, at least any more than many other groups of individuals. 'Furries' are socially-marginalized people who are struggling to establish their own identity, but they're neither G, L, B, nor T.

In short - one can be both G, L, B, T & furry, but being furry doesn't make one G, L, B or T - as a heterosexual furry is neither G, L, B, nor T.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I am transgender
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 08:54 PM by undergroundpanther
And A feline. I identify as both.
I am the T and the B in GBLT,and I am asexual..
If your identity is not het or straight or"normal" you are a cultural transgressor, that does not have to have a bad meaning.

Those who attach a bad meaning to it to exclude are basically taking the means of liberation and sullying it.,limiting it to a few select types of identity ,and turning it into a exclusion preference,which devalues the identity component of ALL of us who are GBLT +something else.
What does the RAINBOW represent? Tell me, is a rainbow ONLY allowed to be ROYGBIV? with clear boundaries separating every color from every other color into the acceptable categories?. In reality a rainbow is a spectrum, of identities and sexualities..Who made up the rule furries are not acceptable fighting for freedom of identity alongside the GBLT,I know plenty of queer animals and gender queer critters.Should they remove thier fur if they want to have a place in fighting for our collective rights to be who we are? How just is that?
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. My sole point is that 'Furry' is not an LGBT issue as your original post claimed.
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 09:55 PM by FreepFryer
It's good to stand up for self-determination at all costs - and I support the protections of transgendered people's rights as much as any gay or lesbian's.

As another example of the difference between LGBT issues and 'furries', I don't believe that furries have the right to marry outside the human species... but I do believe that a gay person should have the right to marry another gay person.

And since furries are already allowed to marry other furries (if the local laws permit gay or straight marriage) I don't see 'furry marriage' as an LGBT issue.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. yes it is
Furries are fighting for their right to be WHO THEY ARE. Just like the GBLT community is fighting for the right to be who they are.

It comes down to fighting for acceptance and the liberation from social oppression for both GBLT's and furries.
We all are fighting the same battles.
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. For furries, the fight is for self-determination, not for LGBT rights. They are not equivalent.
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 09:58 PM by FreepFryer
You have the right to marry other furries, for example. As long as you're not 'gay', that is.

So how are they equal again?

Don't mistake my statements of opinion for condemnation. They're not.

I just disagree with the idea that 'furry' rights are equivalent to 'LGBT' rights. They're not.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Furries
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 10:02 PM by undergroundpanther
get beaten up and harassed if they dare express the fur in certain places.Given, yeah,furries can marry... but try being furry at a job, you can be gay at a job, without being fired,sometimes transpeople can be themselves at work ..but a furry? hell no.There are situations that are very fur adverse.

We all face different kinds of bigotry being applied in different places in different ways,that does not mean we don't face bigots.Bigotry always has the same motive to de-legitamize self determination and crush identities. Be it gay,S/M, trans or furry.
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Furry marginalization is by no means an equivalent injustice to those experienced by LGBT folks.
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 10:07 PM by FreepFryer
Abuse is abuse and comparisons of abuse are horrible - but you can't seriously argue that the issues faced by 'furries' are equivalent to the experiences of LGBT people throughout time that are at the heart of the current LGBT rights struggle.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. And black people
say the bigotry and abuse gay people face is NOTHING compared to racism.
pulling out a trauma yardstick does nothing to bolster your claim in the face of discrimination because furs have been wounded too anyone who challenges the status quo and dominant culture faces harm..Bullied kids face enough shit in school everyday to go crazy and kill themselves,or go so far as to kill people,is their plight less worthy of being listened to than the suffering a fur goes through, less than the trauma of being gay or born black in 1945?
Who has "victim rights" Guess what we all do,we all have faced this kind of shit,from the dominant culture,because this culture thrives on the victimization of people with certain differences.The only ones NOT hurt is whomever is a bigoted abusive asshole.
Abuse is WRONG,it ALL hurts and whomever faces it suffers ,and their self determination is derailed and denied them. So isn't that the real issue here? We want the right to be who we ARE?
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Right, race and LGBT issues overlap, but are different movements w/diff goals. My point exactly.
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 10:29 PM by FreepFryer
Get to work and help build that furry rights movement. I bet you'd be very surprised by what is possible when like-minded people of conscience decide that they will no longer tolerate oppression!

I for one wish you well.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Believe me,the furries
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 10:42 PM by undergroundpanther
know the kind of asshole that wants to ruin everyones happiness.

http://runescape.salmoneus.net/forums/index.php?showtop...
http://www.godhatesfurries.com /
No coincidence they use that slogan.
The people "poking fun" at furries here are bitter assholes who can't laugh unless someone else suffers.The same sort of shallow asshole that would beat up a gay or trans kid in school.




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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Is marriage the ONLY gay rights issue?
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 10:07 PM by undergroundpanther
That exists? What about harassment,bigotry and homophobes? And tell me how is finding/creating an identity and expressing it,and fighting for a life you feel comfortable in, NOT part of the thing you call self determination? I am furry, I fight for my right to be furry as much as I fight for the right to be bi,trans and asexual. I fight for the right to be who I am including my fur that is what self determination IS.
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. No, but it's a practical issue requiring government adaptation. What issues of furries require that?
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 10:07 PM by FreepFryer
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Ok I'd like to not
have to deal with bigots,with having to play human everywhere I go to please stupid people. One fur I knew was a psych major, she got pushed out of her major for admitting she was a wolf in class. She was pressured out by her damn teacher claiming she was 'unstable'.Furs get the mental illness label, even when the fur has no psych history..This is wrong.It's bad enough people with psych histories get delegitamized at every turn, but fur is no more a mental illness than being gay is one.
Furs do face discrimination. It just isn't obvious to people that are not facing fur issues.Furs are very closeted because humanity seems to be so offended that some being human is not tolerable for them,

In my house I live with another feline,and two wolves. I know alot of furry people...
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Okay. Now mobilize support for legal protection w/a furry rights movement. But it's not LGBT. (n/t)
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 10:21 PM by FreepFryer
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. Well the gays were about to abandon the T
part of GBLT,Transgenders as if we were a liability

.In April of this year, the United States congress tabled the controversial Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA), a law that, in its original form, would prohibit discrimination in the work environment on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. The bill aimed to provide employment protection similar to those included in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, but specifically directed towards protecting the rights of the queer community.

However, in a controversial move last week, a new version of the bill was introduced, one which removed the sections of the bill which extended protection to employees based on their gender identity. This effectively removed protection offered to transgender and transsexual people.

Some of the gay and Bi people were ready to abandon us transpeople awhile back,because gays wanted thier rights and this made it apparent some gays had no loyalty to transpeople who wanted the same rights. So I don't expect gay bigots to understand this fur issue any more than they understand transgender issues.
http://www.bilerico.com/2008/03/transgender_history_sto...


Here is a link to refresh your memory.
http://www.trentarthur.info/archives/002141.html
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I'm well aware. Furries also? No. They are not even close to the overlap between LGBT issues. n/t
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. In my maternal culture,
everyone identifies with, or has a special relationship with, a non-human being--four-foot, winged, creeping, standing, stone. It doesn't have anything essential to do with sexuality, though, and it certainly isn't transgressive.

I suspect that what some people in contemporary majority culture are discovering is a similar link, but they don't have a cultural framework that normalizes it. They wind up relating it to urban phenomena like manga instead of to the natural world. A basic course in Shamanism 101 might be helpful all around.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I agree
But isn't there a spiritual component to being gay? or a trans-person like me a two spirit? So why is my feline identity somehow less valid than my transgender identity or my asexuality? I don't get that. This limit stinks of bigotry .Another human invention.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. I didn't say that your feline identity was somehow less valid
than any other. Far from it.

My aunt was a feline person. So am I. My aunt was straight. I'm not.
While with maturity and a bit of luck one's animal spirit meshes with one's sexuality and other facets of one's personality, it's really something quite distinct from sexual orientation or gender identity.
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. That's my view as well. For example, some Native American traditions have this wisdom. (n/t)
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. not in my mind.
I am a male/androgyny feline stuck in the wrong body totally. I am as much a panther as I am genderqueer.
Not everyone "merges" as you say,some never do,some don't want to. That's what makes our differences, different.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. OK then, GBLTF it is. nt
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Yeah,!!

So, what is fur pride?
It's the ideal that gay furs should feel confident and proud of both their gayness and their furriness.
A gay fur comic
http://www.liondogworks.com/fp-45.html


Being furry, of course, goes beyond sexual orientation.
http://furnation.com/index.php?act=home


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lightningandsnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
18. Great post.
I think furry is a GLBT issue. And sex worker rights are a GLBT issue. And feminism, and anti-racism, and disabillity rights, and size acceptance, and kink, and a ton of other things.

Furries, sex workers, women, people of size, people of color, people with disabillities, and kinksters may not be G, L, B, or T, however, I believe we are all fighting for the same thing. We are all fighting the right to be respected and treated equally. We are all fighting for the right to be who we are.

Thank you.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. nobody deserves to be marginalized
for being different.Do not be a bigot to others who are different
Difference does not justify exclusion, ridicule or abuse.



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BillSam Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
43. Things are never that simple
It may be true that people should not be discriminated against and that all of us have a right to do, be, admire, whoever we want, human or animal, but it is also true that other people have a right to be questioning about other peoples behavior, just as we have a right to disagree with it or be skeptical of it.

First of all, it is ludicrous to suggest that furries should be added to GLBT. There are GLBT people in lots of unofficial groupings barbers, people with big lips, blue-eyed chorale singers but it makes no sense to add them all to an already overcrowded GLBTIQ and so on and so on (although I have to admit Im a bit confused how the leathermen got left out when theyre a more legitimate part of the gay scene than most).

But theres a larger issue here. We all want to be progressive and open-minded to a fault, but the danger is that we become too readily accepting of just about ANYthing. Shouldn't we be concerned for young people who might have serious emotional issues? The whole furry business sounds harmless for most but what about others for whom it becomes an unhealthy obsession or fixation? I mean, theres a big difference between someone who, say, likes and enjoys monster movies on a regular basis and someone who wants his face surgically altered to look like Frankensteins monster. Its his prerogative of course, but is it a sensible thing to do? If a friend told you he or she wanted to get permanent tattoos etched all over his or her face, wouldnt you try to talk them out of it?

I love dogs, but I dont want to dress up as one nor do I go around barking at strangers (going woof to an attractive fellow bear doesnt count, LOL. But at least Im not dressing up as Yogi Bear when I go to a bar! maybe I should try it!)

Seriously, those of you who are furries have an absolute right to do what you want, but if some people think its a little nutty, childish or just plain silly, if it makes some people question your mental or emotional balance well, thats their right, too, wouldnt you say? You can shave your head and literally paint it blue, but you have to understand that while you have the right to do that, others have the right to think you're odd or even to laugh at your appearance. Sorry if that bothers you, but that's life.

Or does it just work one way, eh?

I mean, if I started dressing up like Underdog I would hope a friend would take me aside and explain that my fantasy life was getting a little out of hand. My right. His right. If you want instant approval and total acceptance, go to another planet where such exists.

Again, Ill say it, furry-rights does not compare to Gay Rights, and its offensive to suggest that it does.

As for the OP, I assume you've seen the 1942 horror classic "Cat People," in which a woman turns into a panther. But remember -- it's not real life, it's only a movie. Have fun as a furry or anything else, but keep it in perspective, okay? Fantasy should complement our lives, not completely take them over.
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BlueFireAnt Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
44. Excuse my ignorance, but
What in the hell is a furry?
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BillSam Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. People who have an identification
with animals, especially cartoon animals, and who dress up like them, getting in touch with their inner animal.

And no, they are not a misunderstood minority group anymore than "Honeymooners" fans who dress up like Ralph Kramden and attend special Honeymooners conventions (and I'm sure some of them are gay, too).
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BlueFireAnt Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. That's kinda what I figured, but......
that just didn't really sound feasible. And this is for real?
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #54
67. not all furries are cartoons
Some of us have a deep connection with an animal,some of us have non human spirits and don't identify with humanity,furry is a large varied difference.I don't wear fursuits,while I like thundercats cartoons I have no desire to dress up like panthro and copulate sylvester.
If some furs do, fine for them.
I have a couple of t-shirts with the thundercat logo on them..but it's not the same thing.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #67
148. If you don't identify with humanity, why would you want furries to be included as GLBT?
We are quite human.
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galledgoblin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
45. ok, I agree that GLBT issues have begun to evolve into personal identification issues
that's something that I've maintained for a while now. predominantly heterosexuals benefit just as much from GLBT civil rights legislation, although they may not realize it. personal identification and acceptance of all individuality is a quickly emerging segment of GLBT issues...

but one that I think will separate and be a distinctive new issue on it's own, NOT a pure GLBT issue.

I mean, I always roll charisma-based classes in role playing games, and feel at heart I am a rogue or a bard or a swashbuckler.

that doesn't mean I'm going to insist that HRC begins to lobby for my recognition as a dwarven rogue.

pure GLBT rights are about homosexual relationships in the various forms and related civil rights issues.
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RedXIII Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
47. Right you are..
Because when most mundanes think of Furries they think of the Furverts, which are actually a minority in the Furry Community, because it's like Heteros think that we listen to dance music because of us being LGBT,which is actually the Circuit Bois.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #47
68. yep..lulz
you got that one clearly explained..
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
51. definitions
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/identity

identity
Pronunciation:
\-?den-t?-t, ?-, -?de-n?-\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural identities
Etymology:
Middle French identit, from Late Latin identitat-, identitas, probably from Latin identidem repeatedly, contraction of idem et idem, literally, same and same
Date:
1570

1 a:sameness of essential or generic character in different instances b:sameness in all that constitutes the objective reality of a thing :oneness
2 a:the distinguishing character or personality of an individual :individuality b:the relation established by psychological identification
3:the condition of being the same with something described or asserted <establish the identity of stolen goods>
4:an equation that is satisfied for all values of the symbols
5:identity element

Main Entry:
identification
Pronunciation:
\-?den-t?-f?-?k-sh?n, ?-\
Function:
noun
Date:
1644

1 a:an act of identifying :the state of being identified b:evidence of identity
2 a:psychological orientation of the self in regard to something (as a person or group) with a resulting feeling of close emotional association b:a largely unconscious process whereby an individual models thoughts, feelings, and actions after those attributed to an object that has been incorporated as a mental image

definition from merriam websters medical section

http://medical.merriam-webster.com/medical/identificati...

Main Entry: identification
Pronunciation: -dent--f-k-shn, -
Function: noun
1 : an act of identifying : the state of being identified
2 a : psychological orientation of the self in regard to something (as a person or group) with a resulting feeling of close emotional association b : a largely unconscious process whereby an individual models thoughts, feelings, and actions after those attributed to an object that has been incorporated as a mental image









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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
52. Ridiculous. There's nothing that links the two together.
Get your own movement.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
55. Before I get banned...
...which is just about imminent right now...

Furries do NOT fall under the LGBT umbrella. I'll stand up for your right to have sex with animated animals, or whatever it comes down to, but there is nothing GAY, LESBIAN, BISEXUAL, or TRANSGENDER about furries.

STOP trying to make a fetish into an LGBT issue. An identity issue, OK. But it is NOT a LGBT issue. Period.

What that FreepFryer guy said.

Jesus Christ on a Trailer Hitch! Start your own goddamned movement and I'll support your right to do whatever the fuck you want -- but worship of fictional animals has NOTHING to do with Harvey Milk, Harry Hay, Stonewall, etc., etc., etc.
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BillSam Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #55
74. Right on, Sapphocrat!
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #55
87. Thirded
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #55
104. Fourthed. NT
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
106. amen
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Moloch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #55
109. Why is transvestitism a GLBt issue...
and furries aren't? Its the same basic principle of believing you are something different from what you actually are. Both gay and straight people are furries and both gay and straights can be transvestites..
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. Once again, there's a difference between being TG and a transvestite
:eyes:
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Moloch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. I'll call you people transgendered..
when you start your own movement. You could join up with our furry friends instead of latching onto the GLB movement!
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. Ever hear of the shoe heard round the world?
The stonewall riot was started by a TRANSWOMAN.She stood up and clocked a cop with her shoe , for all of us including the gays lesbians and bisexuals... So who is latching onto whom?

5. Did gay activism start before trans activism in the United States?
No. It appears to be the other way around. In a pair of books called Autobiography of an Androgyne (1918) and The Female Impersonators (1922), the author Earl Lind (a self-described androgyne, hermaphrodite, and fairy in New York, who also used the name Jennie June) described his/her social world in New York City. According to Lind, a group of New York androgynes led by one Roland Reeves formed a little club called The Cercle Hermaphroditos in 1895, based on their self-perceived need to unite for defense against the worlds bitter persecution.

http://leftinsf.com/blog/index.php/archives/2236
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #111
118. "you people?" -- how nice
BTW, I'm a lesbian. You assume I'm transgendered, simply because I'm not a bigot against them. That's sad.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #111
125. They do have their own movement dumbass.
And they have nothing to do with Furries (save UGP who is a nice person but I really fail to understand her connection between the two.)
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Moloch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #125
142. I'm really flattered to have this much vitriol directed
toward me.. but, if "transgendered" people are so oppressed, then why are so many outraged by simply being called transvestites? It seems like there would be something more important to worry about...
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #142
143. Because they are NOT transvestites
n/t
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #142
146. Because they are completely different. And, you're being defiantly obtuse about this.
Transgendered people have gender dysphoria, a MEDICALLY recognized issue. Trans folks believe that they are born into the wrong body and wish to change their bodies to reflect their mindset. It's beyond tragic for these folks.

Transvestites are PLAYING. People dressing up in clothing that doesn't ordinarily suit them.

NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL. Get it?
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #142
149. I'll just call you a "troll" then.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #110
115. The distinction is not that easy to make
Edited on Sun Apr-13-08 11:39 PM by undergroundpanther
on appearances because sometimes trans-genders cross dress,and keep their identities secret until they feel safe enough to actually transition.For some cross dressing is required,in the"real life test"..I bound my chest not because I was doing drag but because I was trans,yet there are drag kings. When I was binding I may have been mistaken for a transvestite by an unaware person if they wanted to split hairs.
Gay men exist who do drag shows and their reasons for wearing dresses are not questioned,nor is their gayness or manhood.So why are transvestites and trans-genders questioned?

Bottom line is we all want to be protected from persecution, we want to be who we are and love whom we love.Some trans-women love women are they lesbian or straight? why not ask them,many will say they are lesbian..because they identify as WOMEN..do you see the connection here?
This is how being trans-fur can fit into this.. I am a Bi male cat, when I like men..I am a gay male without a penis, when I am with a male? I like men that are more effeminate than I am, and women that are butch, does that makes me a lesbian, Am I Gay in both situations,or not?

A feline-ish appearance is a big plus for me.Feline women are presented in media as strong and independant like catwoman a very dyke like persona.While feline men can be like a svelte cat,seductive and soft,very feminine or hyper masculine like the black panther comic..if you think about it feline characters can appear very gay regardless of gender.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
56. Most insane post I have ever read.
Furries is NOT a GLBT issue anymore than it is a hetero issue. It is a 'FETISH'. Like boot licking.

Equating people who are furries, which is probably harmless, but I don't know any, nor do I nor anyone who is a 'furry' with the GLBT movement is completely insane and does absolutely NOTHING to further the cause for GLBT rights. In fact, it sets the quest back. It fuels the hatred from the right about the GLBT community and is completely wrong. I would venture to say that a lot of 'furries' are straight and not GLBT.

I don't give a rat's ass what people do in the bedrooms. Buffy had me laughing the other day as she was being grossed out by 'hetero sex', but this is just crazy.

I think my next move is start an alliance of large appliances because deep inside I view myself more as a flat screen tv than human.

FFS.

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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. I just wanna be MMMMEEEEEEEE
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #57
72. Stalking cat
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 11:48 PM by undergroundpanther
is beautiful to me.You might not like it,but he has a right to be,just as you do. So get over it..
He is a cool cat,but your blinding hostility prevents you from seeing him as a person and as a feline because you,my dear are afraid of anything that challenges your assumptions of'normal' you are a agent of sickness with your sarcastic mean-hearted crap trying to tear Stalking cat down and by proxy me, you are a despicable ,desperate power seeking,yet so powerless,a coward,and an example of everything I hate about humanity...must suck to be little minded you. Your rigid fear driven shit will make you go the way of the dinosaurs.The world and the identities one can become is far more diverse ,colorful,and creative than you could ever imagine or tolerate, you are scared by difference apparently.Screaming like a two year old frightened by beards.oh well.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #72
79. There is nothing 'beautiful' about that kind of body mutilation.
Because no matter how you spin it, people have to go along to get along, and turning oneself into a fucking cat is seven thousand shades of insane. Afer you are finished with this kind of mutilation are you going to use a litter box? Catch and eat birds, mice, etc? Can you see how crazy this sounds?

You are constantly railing about the injustices set forth on you because you are disabled, can't work, blah, blah, blah, but all I see is rage against people who are able to go out, get jobs, have families, in other words have a life. It is beyond sad. Turning yourself into a cat isn't going to make your life easier or make people more sympathetic. In fact, just the opposite.

I used to try to understand where you were coming from, but identifying as a cat when you are a human being is certifiable. I enjoy my dogs, but I don't want to 'be' one.

And, trying to conflate this insanity with the GLBT quest for equal rights is wrong on every conceivable level and you should be ashamed. Societal 'norms', the sociological term are there for a reason. They are the reason people don't defecate in public or eat their young. Body modification to this extent will NEVER be acceptable and I for one, hope it isn't. Trying to get people 'on board' with this issue makes the left seem loony. The freepers are having a field day with this. Maybe that was your entire point.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. There is nothing
beautiful to me about human bodies.Hairless apes are gross to me..
Secondly you and your insulting post are a prime examples of why humanity disgusts me and I dis identify as human..
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #82
85. That is a prime example of disrespect.
Ignore.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #85
92. I have a right to give back
what has been put upon me to those who do harm to me.I didn't ask to be born to live among people and grow up watch them tear each other up and be torn up,while bystanders did nothing but gawk..I hate the way humanity exploits the weaker people ,the kids women anyone not"normal enough.It's ghastly and deserves to be disrespected,the alpha humans are psychopaths to the point that everything is going to shit in this world and everyone is too scared to ask why do we let the most cruel abusive manipulating self centered pieces of shit be treated as kings and given a blank check to abuse manipulate and poison/pollute?? You called Cat's self hood body mutilation. I call it another way to be comfortable in an insane society.Understand humanity to me is ugly not because it exists but what what it does to make this existance worse than it already is.It deserves disrespect..LOTS of it. Nature is finally speaking up too..

And I have chosen to not walk the paths of normals,why because I can't do it without truly losing my mind.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. It was a joke
Midlodemocrat understood it.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #95
162. I didn't think it was funny.
A joke indeed.A cruel one a bully might make.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #162
169. Midlo says it to me all the time
And she's my buddy.
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LBJDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #79
173. Hammer, meet nail
Thank you for your post.

It's an insult to the GLBT community to equate it to some sexual fetish, and I'm sure this thread is potential fodder for the right.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #57
78. I know three body mod cats and all are heterosexual.
I think it would be smarter to try to build a bridge with the body modification community than the LGBT community. Not that there is no overlap between identities, but LGBT people are no more likely to be body modified (which is also not necessarily a sexual fetish), furry, or into leather than straight people.

Furrydom is not an LGBT issue; however it is an issue for some people in the LGBT community and we should respect that.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. Ok
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 11:21 PM by undergroundpanther
good compromise.

Now tell the assholes on this thread smearing furs and the mentally ill ,and body mod people at the same time trying to tell every furry they are crazy to GET OVER THEMSELVES. Puhleeze somebody smack'em with a clue stick,maybe they'd quit reacting like scared kids before they shoot off thier trap.Fucking bully assholes here need to grow a heart and quit playing the normalcy cops on everyone they don't relate to..There is no such thing as normal,it is an INVENTED concept based in eugenics.Eugenics last Time around was not friendly to anyone but white straight people who looked and behaved like each other.Carbon copy normals.Hiel,heil.. oh,and fuck the normal land.

Are you Normal enough-Snog


Normal people suffocate you
till the last breath
They clutter footpaths
clutter highways with their living death
Are you normal enough?

Normal people stare at you
wherever you may go
Normal people dispise difference
to the normal people show
Are you normal enough?

Normal people stay inside
stay in the normal zone
You shed a tear at the zoo
yet you chew on flesh and bone
Are you normsl enough
To take the shit that they dish out?
Are you normal enough
To breath it in, breath it out?

Proud to be a consumer
proud to be a drone
Proud to believe "sixty minutes"
from the safety of your home
Proud to swallow every lie
proud to give a cheer
As you witness another murder
of the enemy of the year
Are you normal enough
To be just the same?
Are you normal enough
To be in the normal game?
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. Ditto. FFS
How ridiculous.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #64
84. Are you normal enough?
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #56
117. yet another amen from me in this thread
insane doesn't begin to describe this

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DarkTirade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
58. I've always seen GLBT issues as being outside the 'normal' gender binary.
And while that has a lot in common with furry and other forms of identity, it isn't quite the same. Furry is outside the 'normal' identity, but it doesn't directly influence gender or sex.

At the core it is about identity so it is definately a similar struggle. And like GLBT, it's about internal identity rather than external appearance. So there are definite parallels.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
60. No way
It's a fetish, and the GLBT movement is about civil rights for sexual orientation and gender identity - not about legislating protection for every kink out there.

I have friends who are very much a part of the leather community, and they would certainly consider the leather community part of their identities. I fully support any consenting adult's right to do precisely what they please in their bedroom. I also support anyone's right to enjoy those things free of verbal or physical harrassment.

However, there are lines. If a friend brought his leather identity to the office, I'd have a big problem with it. Just what, exactly, is included in bringing furrydom to work? Dressing up in a suit? Discussing sexualized anthropomorphics? Again, if a co-worker decided his latest leather toys needed discussing during office hours, myself and many others would have a problem with that.

"Humanity often makes me sick inside.I do not like feeling sick. So I reject society , reject my gender role, the sexuality I was born in and I reject the human species,I reject everything that I find to me is toxic."

This is an alarming mindset, IMO. It has absolutely nothing in common with my experience or life as a gay man. I reject this sort of thinking wholly, and it really does have no place in the GLBT sphere. The entire point of GLBT politics is that we are humans, no different than the other humans around us, with the same lives and loves and gifts and flaws. We're fighting to take our rightful place as equals within the human community.

Rejecting that community is in utter opposition to everything I hold dear about the fight for equality and the kind of world and unity I'd like to see come of it. The quoted statement above espouses separatism and hatred. That is not what GLBTers should be about.
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Raejeanowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
61. Sound Like A New Twist On BDD To Me
Or a sexual fantasy/fetish romanticized over the edge. You are doing the LGBT community a disservice by attempting to hitch your wagon to their train; they are not suffering delusions to the effect that they are something other than human beings.

I have a thing for owls myself; always have. It's an attraction, love, or affinity. I've had repetitive dreams of night flying since childhood.

But I've never attempted to lay an egg (done it metaphorically many times, however), swallow a rodent, swoop from a treetop, or mount something with feathers while wearing feathers. It frankly doesn't turn me on THAT way. I collect, I adopt, I read. I fancy maybe if there's such a thing as reincarnation...but that's as far as my thinking on the subject goes.

I wish you joy and fun with this "identity," as expressing it privately with like-minded individuals probably doesn't hurt anyone, but please don't expect to be drawing Medicaid dollars for whisker surgery, or be welcomed marching shoulder-to-shoulder with LGBT for the right to live openly with Tony the Tiger anytime soon.

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BlueFireAnt Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. I can't help it. I did some research on furries since this is the first I've heard of them.
And this is what I found.........


I'm sorry, UGP, but that picture is hilarious to me. I know it probably doesn't represent what you are, but it is funny.
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BillSam Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #63
73. Oh, please let him be straight!
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
101. My Eyes! The Goggles Do Nothing!
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RedXIII Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
62. edited
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 02:47 PM by RedXIII
edited
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RedXIII Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
65. Can we get this thread locked?
The Freepers are having a field day out of it.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. sad
that little minds and bigoted hearts and the mundanes will never get it.Freedom scares the hell out of them..They just can't understand we are what we are regardless of what anyone else thinks or believes about what we are.And that means my identity is as valid as any other type of self identity that causes no harm to others.
Fuck the dominant class and colonial culture and it's oppression of diverse self actualization through it's arbitrary, 'norms'.
When boundaries are breached, and identities seem threatened, behavior is
devoted to re-establishing the fixities, reinforcing categories and power
relations.

Furs because they identify as not human,are seen to be ambiguous because they hover between
humanity and animality, subjectivity and objectivity.
neither out of society nor wholly in it. They
(are human beings but to the mundanes, their differences are de-legitimized ,their minds must be warped or malfunctioning,they exist in partial isolation from society as undefined,ambiguous people.
leaving their access to power and legitimacy while having such a strange identity in doubt.


Turner suggests that,
Liminal entities are neither here nor there; they are betwixt and between the positions assigned and arrayed by law, custom, convention and ceremonial. The liminal peoples have particular resonances within cultural representation, have a license to criticize or to strip off the pretensions of society and power-holders, citing the example of the court jester. It is for this reason that Members of despised or outlawed ethnic or cultural groups play major roles in myths and popular tales as representatives on expressions of universal human values.

Liminal people, ambiguous people who identify as non human, who are different,are non-conformists, and being non conforming means we are perpetually
threatening to the self-image of the average, so-called `normal' population,(even in a sub population The GBLT,still hoping to be granted"normal status" by the dominator class that defines normal and whom isn't).The key features of this argument are firstly, There is culturally a sickness inherent,created by the social dominator's this equation of certain groups of peoples with certain identities,with nature and the body,(in this case furries,animal people)..

and secondly, this desire for the establishment of a normal identity..through separation from the Other( arguments like GBLT can not be acceptable of furries, fur is not a legitimate identity).

Thirdly, and arising out of these developments, is the projection of negative attributes onto the Other,(the fur) either as part of a denial of those elements in the self,(we are upstanding normal humans,not animals) or as part of a general denigration of disturbing, contradictory, anomalous or threatening phenomena.( Fact is we ARE animals,and that defense against that appears in stuff Like..All the snotty mean spirited comments about furs and hostility about me and hostile inquisitions about how I 'pay' for my dream.How DARE a poor disabled person get his needs met that are not approved by the dominant'normal' definer class!This is an OUTRAGE!!)

Fuck normal. Fuck the dominant social class and their stupid fear driven control shit.There is no such thing as normal or authority.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
69. Thank you for sharing your feelings with us.
:hug:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. you are welcome
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 11:37 PM by undergroundpanther
If I didn't say it, in this case the prevailing norms would prevail, unchallenged,and we'd all be normal,limited,and the other would remain voiceless. So The GBLT wants to appear appropriate and non threatening to the social status quo,in this case are GBLT's another status seeking group who wants the socially dominant class to 'normalize them'?

The saddest thing is, some people in the GBLT movement apparently are still seeking permission (declaration of normalcy) from the social dominator's to be themselves,they are so afraid of the different and ambiguous, they have not thrown off the oppressor, nor even seen the oppressor in themselves oppressing and othering..These desperate wannabe normalized instead of accepting and fighting the colonization of identity go and grovel for the normal badge.And so they exclude the other like good little wannabe normal people do.

Give it time ,the more exclusionary the GBLT movement gets,they may get to become an oppressor class of all the abnormals and culture transgressors someday too.

I myself hope that never happens,but by the bigotry some displayed here,the exclusionary tactics, and ignorance I see I begin to wonder??.

And it reminds me why I am a panther,and why being a panther means so much to me.I define myself by what I am and am not.

I said in an earlier post I rejected humanity and society.Let me clarify that, I meant I reject the part of humanity that fears ,excludes oppresses and dominates and others all those who are ambiguous,different,transgressors of norms,rebels who are walkers of the thresholds between states of being and becoming.

I do not reject the courageous rebellious,anti-authoritarian,multifaceted kind of humanity that accepts ,shares,nourishes and loves even the self identified animals in human bodies,the freaks and the disabled,the crazy and the wounded ones in their midst,accepting them as who they are, as they are as their kin.I do not reject the kind brave humanity that HATES the lies of normal,and wishes for all to be free of domination based social control games about how they define themselves and live their own self actualization.

Either you are part of the sickness or part of the cure. I hate the sickness.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #71
86. It's a FETISH! Fetishes are not part of the GLBT community
Sure lots of GLBT people have them, but so do lots of straight people. There are no laws about fetishes involving legal consenting adults.

You think you're a cat? Fine. It's GLBT, not GLBTF, though.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #86
93. Than exclude bears (hirsuitism fetish)
Edited on Fri Apr-11-08 04:14 PM by undergroundpanther
Leather,and all others ..If you are such a purist,Exclude gay people who like people to be shaved,or hairy or in leather, in boots,or whatever,exclude exclude exclude.... I dare ya.
Those things I listed are fetishes . If you think a furry identity is a fetish,and you assume all furs do the furry suit thing,you'd be wrong...Do "bears"(hirsuitism fetishists) have more status in THEIR" "fetish" among the GBLT than furs do? If so WHY? Why are THEY considered valid among gblts, and furs NOT? Furry for some IS a fetish, I agree for others it is an IDENTITY...Are bears mere fetishists or do they have a "beary" identity too? This excluding the furs..could it be ummm... BIGOTRY?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Bears fall under GLBT -- not because they're "bears" but because they're GLBT
Edited on Fri Apr-11-08 04:20 PM by LostinVA
Some furries are gay. Most are straight. It's not a separate identity.

If somebody has a furry fetish, then that's fine by me. It's GBLT, though, not GLBTF.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #94
127. Sometimes its LBGTQ, though - and that Queer stands for a wide range of identities.
I don't know. I never heard of furries until I read this thread. It's fine with me if they want to call themselves Queer, though. Anybody - even straight people - can identify as Queer. Queer is a state of mind. Queer is a political and social statement. Queer says that one is rejecting the male-female binary expressed in a patriarchal corporatist heterosexist paradigm. Furries seem to fit.

At least, that's what Queer means to me.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #127
129. I Thought the Q Stood for "Questioning"?
In any case, not to be uninclusive, but GLBT is already a big enough mouthful for me, so I never add anything else to it.
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Bladecollector Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #129
133. Family
Is the name I use....covers everybody nicely. And has a kind of "mafia" sound to it much like "goodfellas" ."You know they're one of us...ya know "family". ;-)
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #129
136. I've seen it stand for both
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #129
139. Look up the etymology of the word "queer" - its related to "query" and "questioning."
Oxford English Dictionary.

Further reading:

_Fear of a Queer Planet_. Michael Warner, Editor.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #127
135. Yeah -- I have no problem with the "Q"
The thing is furry is a fetish. I have no problem with GLBTQ furries. It's not a GLBT issue, though. There are plenty of straight furries out there. I fit into the GLBTQ comunity because I'm a lesbian, not because of my fetishes. Undergroundpather is part of the community, because he's transgendered, not because he thinks he's a cat.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. Oh, How Completely Ridiculous You Are.
Bears aren't called bears because they think they're bears. They're called bears because they're fucking hairy. No one's excluding your dumb furry club. We just refuse to go along with the childish notion that you're really an animal way deep down. Play pretend all you like, but don't expect the rest of us to play along. You're covered under the GLBT umbrella because you're transgendered, not because you're, unfortunately, a little loopy.

No offense. Some of my best pets are animals. :grouphug:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. And your
Edited on Fri Apr-11-08 08:27 PM by undergroundpanther
attitude and dismissive insulting words at me are self righteous bigoted and cruel.If you talked like you did to me to ANYONE else they would be insulted ,but somehow because I am furry therefore "crazy" or"childish" WTF do you know about me or furs ? What you speak sounds like you are more like a snotty jerk,dismissive and sarcastic.

It's seems it's all ok to be an asshole to me ..WRONG.. So I'm furry, I am challenging your overvalued limits a.So you get defensive and show your ass to me as if THAT is any kind of response It's your own defensive bullshit... Ironically the hostile people here responding with verbally abusive shit don't even see what they are doing ('othering')because they don't want to.Emotional cowardice and stunted empathy..spews yet again. And some wonder why I find humanity so toxic.Another example of this toxicity is that previous poster.

Sigh, when will people wake up??? ..and quit being so damn hostile to anyone who challenges assumptive norms? It's time to challenge these things, because they are excluding. Is it that frightening for some to consider the meaning of what I am trying to say?? I guess so, because it seems far easier for some here to puff themselves up and to insult than to think or even attempt to relate to me or to this issue and see how it fits into to a bigger picture that is all about the right to be who you are.. (self actualization ,cognitive freedom and freedom of identity)..Easier to declare me "childish" and call my friends a dumb "club" than to risk trying to find a common understanding and educate yourself on a deeper level by considering what I am trying to say isn't it? Ugh.the cowards.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. What Part of GROUP HUGS Smilie Do You Not Get???
Look. I'm really not TRYING to be a dick (it comes naturally to me). I am not going to apologize for thinking you're childish and loopy, that's just my opinion. It doesn't mean I think you're a bad person or something. Just...confused.

I'm fond of putting grown men over my knee and spanking their bare asses. But it's not my IDENTITY. I don't walk around all day thinking, "No one knows that I'm really Pledgemaster, the Frat Boy Punisher!" and chuckling evilly to myself. Okay, well sometimes I DO do that, but in general, I keep my fantasies separate from my reality. Because spanking is a fetish: an activity I take pleasure in. It doesn't DEFINE me. And your furry cat fetish doesn't define you. It's just something you (hopefully) pretend to be.

There's something inherently ridiculous about spanking a full grown man. I recognize this. It doesn't take away my enjoyment of the act; in fact, it enhances it. There's something even MORE inherently ridiculous about a grown man pretending to be a cat. You should try to embrace the humor in your fetish; it might help your state of mind, which, to be frank, is coming off a tad shaky.

Again: :grouphug:
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #93
103. But bears ARE gay. So why would the G in LGBT be excluded?
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RedXIII Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
76. Here is a news article that surprisingly is..
pro-furry instead of the usual bias.

http://www.hartfordadvocate.com/article.cfm?aid=3873

Because there is a reason we avoid the media.
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
80. Oh, ok.
Before I read this I thought it was about not shaving.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #80
88. No -- I did that thread in the Women's Rights forum last year
It was a BLAST! Who knew people could be so protective of their body hair?
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lightningandsnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. Haha. I saw that.
Epic.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. They can pull my Mach 3 and Coochie Cream from my cold, dead hands
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
99. Sure, Furry is a GLBT issue.
As much as ABDL is a GLBT issue, or BDSM is a GLBT issue. Here's the new spokesperson for the movement:






Yes, I'm being sarcastic and no I'm not impugning anyone's taste in fetish or identity. Do what you want with whomever you want so long as it's consensual and you don't hurt others. (And especially don't engage in things while trying to legally restrict the rights of others to do so) But enough is enough! Furry is not a GLBT issue because it has nothing to do with G,L,B or T. Be it identity, sexual fetish or both it still has nothing to do with being GLBT. Start your own movement if you want, but don't try to join ours. We have enough difficulties as it is.




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Amimnoch Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
102. Welcome Underground Panther.
I must admit, I don't really understand Furry, but then again, I don't think i'm required to, nor do I have to understand it to accept it. Anyway, a big welcome hug, or maybe a soft petting. Maybe it doesn't exactly fall under GLBT, but it seems like a struggle for equality and acceptance, which, to me is no different than my own. After all, isn't that exactly what we struggle for every day of our lives? To be able to love whom we want? To be able to walk down the street hand and hand with our partners and not have to suffer ridicule and scorn? I'm a bit shocked and embarrassed by some of the responses here.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #102
108. Thank you
Edited on Sun Apr-13-08 12:44 AM by undergroundpanther
For your kindness. Yeah I like the soft pets better than the stinging verbal assaults.
I think the verbal abuse would have stopped alot faster if they could feel my claws slash back through cyberspace.
Oh well. As for the responses,I agree with you there.. The bigotry faced by furs is VERY real and people can be very mean about things they don't understand or feel threatens them somehow..People can deny it all they want here but calling me insane for trying to be comfortable in my own body and modifying it to be so, is a very, bigoted, cruel and ignorant thing to do. And yes it hurt to be called crazy over and over,yeah I have a psych history but I am not crazy,I am wounded by my past from being around cruel people who throw around abusive words and fists..and yes it makes me pissed off at the stupidity and bullying and disgusted at humanity,at why so many people are so mean and why so many rather than be decent will join in or they by-stand and never say a damn thing about how wrong it is to verbally assault others.It's disgusting.Disheartening. I was trying to relate my experiences being trans and furry and how it affects me physically sexually, and how it might be related to being trans..but no they just want to throw barbs at a target .
I wonder Why be so mean?

Thank you for your acceptance,you got my basic premise. The second part I was trying to convey was about body mod to be who you are..
Sigh. This cat would be honored to share the sidewalk with you and whomever you are in love with..
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
105. Undergroundpanther...
Perhaps I understand you if what you are describing is a connection to an animal spirit.

This picture, in that case, is for you:



And THIS one, I suppose, is for me:



I have always been interested in animal spirits. I don't, in fact, think of myself as a mouse, however, and would not consider a connection between me and any other spirit as a part of my homosexual identity.

Are you telling us that furries are always attracted to the same gender? Are you telling us even that furries are *generally* attracted to the same gender?

I am male and have a dick that goes hard when I think about men. This did not happen through any disgust with ordinary society, it just happened. That is what defines my sexual orientation.

It's not really a question of identity, it's *physical*. I don't see how your rejection of society resembles my sexual orientation, which is a part of my body.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. OMG those images are BEAUTIFUL!!
Edited on Sun Apr-13-08 12:18 AM by undergroundpanther
Thank you,I saved them both WOW..Made me tempted to do it in carved leather..or beads.Damn.Beautiful..Maybe a new cat-tat?

>Perhaps I understand you if what you are describing
>is a connection to an animal spirit.

Yes it is a connection,a very deep one.Deep as my transgender issues .The modifications I am doing that so many here are calling crazy or think are so hideous are part of my path to wholeness.


>I have always been interested in animal spirits. I
>don't, in fact, think of myself as a mouse, however,
>and would not consider a connection between me and
>any other spirit as a part of my homosexual
>identity.

I know I am not in a literal sense a panther, either.. but my nature is panther-like, my spirit is panther, inside I am panther,and I am called panther by everyone .It's hard for some to grok this .I'm not psychotic.It is about identity,my body and how I feel.

As for fur..Fur may intersect with some gays, Gay furs exist,there once was a Fur Pride site..but I think in my case it is more of a significant parallel to my trans-gender issues.
I am not saying all trans genders are critters deep down let me make that clear.And I'm not saying all furs desire to transform themselves physically and modify their bodies either...

Some trans-people are transfurred and some are not. What I am saying however there are some significant overlapping parallels concerning furs who modify their bodies/appearance and non-furry trans-genders who modify thier bodies.
Trans-people like me, want to modify their outside gender presentation to match their true gender inside. Some furs may take that transformation process and change as well. Transfurred or simply a fur may seek to also become whatever they are inside too by modifying the body.

>Are you telling us that furries are always attracted
>to the same gender?

No not always, but sometimes they are.

>Are you telling us even that furries are *generally*
>attracted to the same gender?

No,however some are attracted to same gender,some are not,some are Bi,and a few are straight but regardless ,a small segment of those furs are seeking to transform who they are,as in modify their appearance to match their inside to their outsides.
It's not common but it exists.

>I am male and have a dick that goes hard when I think
>about men. This did not happen through any disgust
>with ordinary society, it just happened. That is what
>defines my sexual orientation.

Ok. For me I am bi.Bi because I don't care what plumbing a person has, to love them.I love people for who they are.I don't get sexually aroused like other people do.Sex is boring to me.I am asexual.Asexual are treated as if we are somehow defective psychologically because we don't care about doing sexual acts.There are a million more entertaining things to do,than fuck

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Asexuals are looked at in the most banal ways by people who can't imagine someone can be really asexual.(and that is a sexual oreintation,I learned about Aven and asexuality at a GBLT support group! For more on asexuality go here:
http://www.asexuality.org/home /

Asexuality is my sexual orientation currently.It has physical components,reasons maybe related to my gender,the hormone confusions and my feline,(If you want to know what asexuals are attracted to, It is a person's mind ,heart, I seek affection and to explore person-hood) and asexuals not attracted to (sex).My orientation may change as I change and my body .

And believe me being asexual has caused some problems for me,that hurt.Things like tolerating having sex because I just wanted affection,and I wanted to be close as in skin contact, thinking if I pretended sex was OK for me I wouldn't make the other person uncomfortable. It is very difficult to be asexual in a sexualized world.

Maybe part of the reasons I don't get into sex is because I am male with a female part below and maybe that mismatch still interferes and since I am also feline,that too may play into why I am asexual also.I don't know.All I do know is my physical body interferes with my completeness so it may change as I change my body..

For my gender issues, I don't identify as a female ,I was just me early on,I never noticed gender..until society tried to force me to be a female.I didn't know I was different than females or males until I realized the differences between boys and girls and how they are treated.When I realized I was missing the part that I needed to be complete and male it was painful.I was admonished by others who had this girl thing I had to be which I had no clue what it meant,still don't.

And because of my body being all wrong,not matching my mind or male identity, I got chastised simply for being who I am. To everyone I was always too masculine,to boyish,fighting with my mom to wear male clothes.Horrified buying a bra. Once I did something that was a bad idea,I bound down my boobs with duct tape to make them go away,that was a painful mistake too..Later in the 80's because I told my shrink I wasn't a female,I was put on a horrible behavior modification program while I was trying to recover from my past.It was considered treatment to try to force me to be more"ladylike" and I couldn't do it, I became really suicidal.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

..Likewise similar misunderstandings happen with my feline self.Too wild ,what are you wearing THAT for ? You must be crazy.You think you are a cat.On and On. But my identity thing isn't a psychosis,it's a spiritual issue that reaches into the physical.
Not everyone who is furry feels it the same way as I do.
Regardless it's not crazy to want to be comfortable in my own skin,it's what I have to do to feel at home in this wrong body.The modifications serve as a way to let myself be inside my own body without so much conflict and discomfort.

If nobody grew up being fed this silly binary gender bullshit from birth I may have not been chastised all day for simply being myself so much going up against the normal binary gender beliefs of everyone.What I was physically defied the reality I knew,which was that I was not female inside. I may still have desired to alter my body, even if being a male androgyny was accepted as a normal and genuine variation of persons.

I think I still would want to alter my physical body for my self comfort or to feel complete because it is a physical issue too.Maybe in a society that accepted gender and sexuality as diverse and fluid things instead of these rigid binary norms changing gender wouldn't carry such a damn stigma and all these hoops to prove it to the gatekeepers who hold the access to hormones and whatnot away from people who need it until they prove it wouldn't be there.

A similar sort of mismatching is also happening with the feline inside me too.So I am altering my appearance to be more cat-like,and doing this change each step I find makes me feel more at ease in my own flesh...It is a path to wholeness physically and sexually because I need to be whole.

>It's not really a question of identity, it's
>*physical*.

My identity issues are physical too.It's because I want to be comfortable in my own skin.Can't get more physical than that. There is a mismatch.So I have to physically modify my body so the conflict with it in my mind and self stops.I have seen drastic changes in myself for the good with every step of my trans- transformation,and with every stripe appearing on my skin,I feel the re-connections that mean alot to me,I am being true to not only myself,but to my body and so mind and all of me can work together in peace. And maybe with these conflicts behind me I may be able to find out if I am truly asexual, or not.At this time I do not know yet, I might be a gay male tomcat.I dunno.


>I don't see how your rejection of society resembles
>my sexual orientation, which is a part of my body.


My rejection of society comes from my frustration at societies ignorance ,the destructiveness of it and the more nasty people within it.
As for orientation with parts of my body, my male chest has been a big help in being able to explore what an orientation for me might be. I once had double d monstrosities hanging off my chest like two tumors,but with them gone, my chest feels like my own chest there instead of a thing I did not see as part of myself.A constant source of alienation and awkwardness has been lifted away. I feel at home a more in my body with this male chest, it feels natural and I am beginning to feel like I am myself,I get called sir and reflected back is the masculine affirmations that help me feel at home.

As the stripes are being tattooed on me I also feel more at home being in this physical body ,for me gender and being feline it is a real issue that effects me profoundly .Physically transforming my body relieves the conflicts between dealing with the wrong physical sensations and what I am inside and my appearance and how others treat me,as a feline guy inside and out.

These physical changes really do help to get the issues resolved between my body/mind and identity,...which someday may change my sexuality, I don't know...Issues that very well have origins in bodily and mental things and spiritual things too..Already the changes I have done are doing alot of good for me helping me to be able to function as a man and as a feline and relate to my own body as what I am in this world. I don't think everyone who relates to an animal feels it the same way.Nor does every transgender person have to get all the surgeries available done before they feel at home in their new gender..

I feel both issues very deeply, both the fur and trans so I am modifying my body and I will stop changing it when I feel complete.. But I am not doing this rashly.
For instance I will not be getting a phalloplasty.Firstly because it is a helluva dangerous operation.Secondly it will not function like a real penis nor will it look quite like one. Thirdly it is very,very expensive.So until the surgery techniques are better and more affordable phalloplasty is not an option for me.That is a choice I have made for now.If the pressures change or the techiques improve or it is affordable ,if I may realize I do need a phalloplasty to be a man one day I will deal with that,than. As for my feline side,I don't want to file my teeth to points because my teeth have weak enamel,and it would destroy my teeth.I will put money aside as I can bit by bit and get dental implants.
Nor do I wish to split my upper lip like Stalking cat did, it does not capture the kind of feline I am.I am approaching my changes with a clear head.A psychotic who isn't thinking of consequence vs benefits would not be so concerned with future dental health or how well a modification works.

When I am more fully in my feline masculine self I feel whole and it shows, so people reflect this positive feeling I exude back to me.The exception is how hostile people get online to this issue,and I know I get misunderstood.. but when people meet me in furson it's a totally different kind of exchange.

People are often inquisitive and they really do like who I am in my feline male self,I have made alot of friends from all sorts of walks in life. I have basically begun to bloom into my own if that makes any sense.

The things I am discovering about myself,my body wouldn't have happened if I had to stay in a female human body.I think the stress of it all may very well eventually have led me to suicide.Many transgender people are at great physical risk of suicide until,they resolve the conflict of self/body, and fix their bodies..

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/transgender.htm

I am not saying fur,gay and trans-gender issues are the same I am saying the intersect and that intersection is what I wanted to voice here.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #105
128. I think that your post illustrates (very beautifully)
some of the problems with combining issues of gender identity with issues of gender preference in the acronym GLBT.

Then we top it all off with the general purpose term "Queer." No wonder people are confused.
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BillSam Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #128
130. Here, here!
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
112. Hi all
There have been some questions about this thread. Given the nature of the post is to link this to GLBT issues, this post is appropriate for this forum. We understand this is a contentious and difficult topic so please take extra care to follow DU's expectations for civility and decorum.

If you have any concerns or issues, please feel free to use the alert functionality, PM any mod, or PM/email the Administrators.

Lithos
DU Moderator


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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. thanks lithos
I really don't like being called crazy,inane psycho over and over that kinda kills the desire to respond back with civilly to some posts on this thread.
Anyways if people here still think furries receive no stigmas from others as if they have full rights,they are mistaken, My point about being marginalized like trans-people,gays are,rings true,even among open minded gay people,some of the misinformation,hostility,and cruelty in this thread proves furries are also not safe from bigots
in this world.Not accepted ,understood or even tolerated..not by a long shot.. and many furries have a closet they hide in too.There is a 'coming out' regarding having an animal spirit inside I have had to"come out" plenty as trans bi and asexual,and believe it or not coming out for me,the furry has been the hardest.

Because of the derision and the lies sensationalists tell the public about furries it was very emotional very scary. If you remember,not long ago Trans gender people were once seen as "freaks,as crazy and they were marginalized, lots of lies were told in the media about how sick and depraved trans-people were by the sensationalist media,and trans-people still are stigmatized.So when furs who modify their body to match body to spirit get marginalized by people that can grok the meaning and pain of being transgender it really becomes sad to me that they cannot or will not try to understand the type of fur that identifies as an animal spirits also a two spirit, in my case is it three?. For some furs it's a fetish for some it's the art,for others it is who they are.And there are more GBLT furries than straight furs considering the numbers of the fur population..
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #113
116. I appreciate your candor
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 12:25 AM by Lithos
While I have learned a lot from reading the GLBT forum over the years and I've learned a lot from this thread, to be frank, some of the issues and feelings being expressed i this thread are way past my personal experience and understanding. However, I do sense quite a bit of pain and frustration about self-identification which lead you to make a case about how you feel this is related to GLBT. Because you feel this is related to GLBT and because your post was an attempt to outreach (is that the right word?) to the GLBT forum, then I can't help but believe this is appropriate here.

Are the politics behind self-identification exactly the same as those of the GLBT effort? or are GLBT issues more focused and/or different? I don't know. It sounds at some levels there is an overlap.

L-


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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #116
121. yes.
that is exactly what I was trying to do, gay furries need to be understood as sharing SOME of the painful issues that GBLT's share.

There are similarities: for furs that identify as an animal inside,
to the gay experince..

For furs,there is a closet,where one must hide ones fur. Furs have faced humiliation,ridicule,bashing,and even death threats.Sometimes wearing tiger t shirts isn't enough,they have to face the creature within.They may ask themselves for years why they can't just fit in and do things like other people do.Why do they sense things others ignore. Why they have physical appearance, sensations/reactions like that of a non-human creature for.Why is it sop awkward to do things people take for granted like eat a certain way.Like all identity issues it has a desire to outwardly expressed itself..Furriness falls within a spectrum regarding how far that identity pushes itself to be known and how safe the environment is to'let the fur out'.
Very similar to the issues I faced being a transgender.

Some furs are fine with tiger t shirts,others do modify thier bodies because the feeling can be overwhelming.Many furs I know wear tails,sometimes ears, wear fangs,contacts to appear more animal like, they'll do it at the club,or among freinds,some do it in public because that is what is normal for them, others go farther and face the risk because they have to..

There is hostile/ media sensationalism,lies and beliefs about what furries are and what they do and why that are totally false and the public gets thier 'picture' of what furries are from that distorted image that sells.Transgender people were sensationalized treated as freaks,too and still some TV shows minimize the transgender's suffering and try to make the transperson an object of ridicule.

Fur like trans is misunderstood among ignorant people.And it's still considered an"illness" by'professionals'telling everyone what normal is and is not.
They call it body dysmorphic disorder.Andthis identity issue is always veiwed by someone else not experincing it looking in trying to pidgeonhole the identity variant person, Of course it might look illogical to the ignorant and 'professionals', but inside it is the experince is of asserting ones self hood,your own normal,which to a culture already hostile or ignorant twords it, it gets labeled crazy,because again the people that are not furry or trans are misunderstanding the mismatch issue is real and the distress over this mismatch is the cause of the per/furson looking like they have an "illness"..And because observers do not have this mismatch,they have a brain and body that is not conflicted, they can't imagine how it feels or why it matters so much to the individual why they must change..

Every step I have taken to align my body with the self I have inside I feel a bit more able to be present inside this body to feel calmer and to actually be able to connect to it.

One painfully difficult aspect of being transgender for me is being seen as a female by others .Words like her she drive me up a wall because I am no her she,ect.
Likewise I ask people I meet to call me Panther, it eliminates the gender thing,and it asserts my feline self too.
All the people who know me call me Panther. Eventually Panther will be my legal name.


Some furs may experince things in an animal-like way .And I have animal habiuits I have done since forever..And not all furs experince fur within as intensely or exactly as I experince it. Some furs may experince other sorts of animal-like things depending on the species they are or some even normal things all people sense but it is hightened to preternatual levels.

For instance:I like to eat laying down.Sitting at a table always feels awkward to me .So I suppress the way I eat comfortably for me, to do it the expected human way but at home I eat lying down..
And I like to perch,sit in a corner quietly alone when I enter new situations/places for awhile if my spot is elevated and in a corner by the door even better .I don't have to always suppress that, but going in someplace I never been before without taking a quiet and alone second to observe my surroundings makes me feel anxious.

When I see lights moving,I have an urge to play, and I suppress it in some situations because I have to. I notice sudden movements,than I watch it,with an urge to stalk it,catch it.. I suppress that most of the time now.Again because I have to.

Those are a couple of small things that are cat-like about me but there are other things and feelings that go deeper than these small examples of mismatching I said here.

It could be said by anyone looking to critisize me that I 'read into' the kinds of sensations and experinces all wrong and it is all in a very human range,so I should just accept I am simply human. But for me I cannot do it that way.It feels cat-like to me.I feel a shifting in myself during certain things. Since my spine is fucked I cannot do some of the more dramatic cat-things I did that ,but my body had found a way to compensate, and my senses and preferences are still cat like regardless.

So,Should I just suppress the feline inside?
Keep it caged in because other'normal' or mundane people are upset by it and don't understand it,and hide it because tons of people they believe sensationalist lies the media has lied about furs, or rumors they heard about how depraved and sick furs are,should I stay caged up to hide from those who feel they have a right to attack me because of my fur side?


In the fur community there is a greater portion of gay critters trans furred critters than there are straight critters. This may or may not be significant. Why are there so many GBLT furs? I once belonged to a message board called transfurred, it had over 200 members all were transgender and furry. What do you make of that? There was furpride too,a place for GBLT furs, and alot of furs were part of that too.

What I am saying is GBLT furs need to be protected not just for the GBLT status but also because of the fur for I think in some cases furriness in some GBLT people is part of thier self determination and who they are.

For instance: What if a gay fur gets bashed by some assholes,and it is revealed he was not bashed because he was gay but because he looked liker say,Lizard Man,that does mean he should be blown off from being defended by the GBLT community because the attack wasen't gay bashing, but fur bashing?



If these issues get divided up and ranked in a person, by proxy in thier rights get diminished by that,it could make a mess of things for everyone and the listing of exceptions and rules could get insane. I think the GBLT movement can deal with the entire spectum of identities of GBLT people,including the gay furs and trans-furred among us without diminishing the GBLT part.
Fur, even body mod fur is not harmful to anyone else .Being who you are shouldn't be scapegoated by GBLT's..

By the way...just fur fun..





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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
119. This surely is one of the most ridiculous associations I've ever seen made.
You and any other people on earth are free to do whatever you like, but to link the desire to be and be with other people who pretend to be fluffy animals, or to become a cat for that matter, to GLBT issues, is ridiculous.

We have enough under this umbrella as it is, without adding this. Unless you can prove to me some kind of genetic predisposition of gay people (or T people for that matter) to be "furries", then it's not a GLBT issue.
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Amimnoch Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. I've loved so many of your other posts, so it's hard to be so opposed now.
This one is so difficult to me, you've been such an icon to me when it comes to supporting our mutually loved candidate.

BUT, on this one particular topic, I just cannot seem to bring myself to see eye to eye with you. Of course that's the beauty of diversity itself.. we don't ALWAYS have to agree :)

just to show you my perception, if you change just a few words of your own post, maybe you can see just how your own post could very well be the same words used by the extreme right that hates us.

"you and other people on earth are free to do whatever you like, but to link the desire to be and be with people of the(same sex), or to become a (perverts) for that matter, to (human rights) issues, is ridiculous.

We have enough under this umbrella as it is, without adding this. Unless you can prove to me some kind of (morality) to be (GLBT), then it is not a (human rights) issue."

I know you don't understand what our undergroundpanther is trying to say, and to be honest, because it isn't something I understand either, I know it's hard to equate the struggle to being the same as ours. But, look at what our little feline is typing, and the passion behind it. It's hard to refute at the very least a similarity in trying to fight for the acceptance by "main stream america". Furry may very well not be GLBT, but it sure seems like a struggle, at the very least parallel to our own.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #120
123. But please explain how this is a GLBT issue? Sure there are similarities, as African American civil
rights also have similarities, as all civil rights have similarities. I just cannot see how it fits n as a GLBT issue. And even in this post of yours you are saying it is probably not a GLBT issue. Sure, there could be parallels, but that's not what I'm objecting to. The premise of this thread is that "Furries" are under the GLBT unbrella, and they simply are not.

I do, however, apologize for using some language that could be seen as belittling or insulting to "furries" since I do not understand any of it myself. I am merely objecting to it becoming a GLBT issue when it clearly is not.


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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #120
152. Thank you
It boils down to three things..

Holding power without oppressing or excluding the others.
Selfishness.
and who defines whom is in or out and why.

Any rainbow dual or not also has an invisible part to it like the infrared and ultraviolet,spectrum..So why exclude these elements from the rainbow because they are invisible to mundane eyes? They exist and shine regardless of the choice to ignore or exclude them. That is the part of the rainbow that still hides in the closet.If you dare to look through a different pair of cultural lenses at the same rainbow you might see the rainbow covers far more of a range of colors like gamma rays and x rays. And why does a movement that flies a rainbow flag need a few selfish interests to define it's colors limits for us all and limit our range of flavors for?

I think by the reactions in some of the posts,on this thread the right wing oppressors are getting to define what is GBLT is to the GBLT movement.

What do I mean by that?

Look at the exclusionary behavior and the harsh judgementalism and selfish displays..Give someone a taste of power than you see what their true character is like. All of us fought for ENDA. Yet Because the oppressor class got hung up over transgender rights ..Some of the gays thought it would be OK to pull up the ladder and abandon the trans-genders from the freedom to not be discriminated against,so the selfish gays could get employment protection FOR THEMSELVES.

That kind of selfishness and cowardice is playing RIGHT into the oppressors hands.The right-wing gets to break us.It's sad some gays would so willingly break the movement apart, further limit it and who gets rights.And make GBLT into another stratification situation ,just to ensure gays get theirs.

This is pure selfishness.If one part of a movement secures rights for themselves and do not feel ashamed excluding others from having those same rights ,than are they worthy of defining any movement at all? I think not.

The gays who thought excluding trans-genders from ENDA was "necessary" to get it passed are selfish,and still being defined by the right wing. They will throwaway others to get their scrap of rights from the oppressor powers that be.
These selfish ones who are willing to destroy the larger solidarity of diverse people fighting for the same thing, are dangerous to any movement that prides itself on acceptance and diversity.

Solidarity in acceptance and diversity is the only way we got any power at all to change things .Cutting off the the indigo despite the rainbow doesn't help solidarity in diversity crying for justice,That is the only thing the Powers that be fear...

You can see the similarities in the fight for self definition,self actualization and to be who we are without threats harm or hiding it, between GBLT issues and Fur.But yet some identities aren't acceptable to you even though the struggle is the same..By who's definition is this line drawn and why is there even a line there??
Who is making themselves a grand Pooh Bah of the GBLT movement? What popular/powerful/moneyed and yes,selfishly motivated people among us are they who say who's in or out in the rainbow? Who determines what colors of identity and gender and sexual expression between consenting adults don't belong?

(the only boundaries and exclusion should be on the psychopathic people who get off on harming others ,that do not respect consent and age of consent.The bad things like sex trafficking for porn,pedophiles or rape, I think we all can agree such psychopathy is not about freedom, identity or human rights at all, it's about exploitation and abuse,which hurts anyone exposed to it)


The boundary against exploitation and abuse of identity/gender/sexuality diverse beings.We all are the source of the rainbow. Do exclude the things that destroy rainbows.That is the only limit and boundary that should be put upon what is included in a rainbow. Th GBLT movement has potential to become huge and liberate the world, but it will not become that if parts of the rainbow are cut out.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #152
163. It's not about excluding anyone. If all "furries" were gay or transgendered, then it would not be
an issue. You are expecting that we should include furries here as if they are Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual or Transgendered by definition.

It's ludicrous to have to now accept every sort of fetishist, or anyone who identifies as something other than human, in our fight for equality. A straight furry is welcome to marry another furry. A gay furry cannot, so as a gay furry one would be welcome here, but not because one is a furry, but because one is gay.

What civil rights are you denied simply because you are a furry, that is also denied a straight/non-transgendered furry?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #119
126. I think it's fair to call it a Queer issue.
I think that any issue that involves identities - especially identities that reject the male-female binary - can fairly be called Queer issues. The acronym GLBT often includes a Q as well.

Anyway, this thread is interesting to me. I didn't realize it before, but I might be sort of tending toward a furry.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #126
137. It's a Sex issue
Furry is a fetish. I'm certainly not going to begrudge anyone a fetish, but to me, it's no different than BDSM. And, I certainly have no problems with that.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #137
140. I know very little about furry, but it seems to me that it is an identity issue.
Underground panther says that he identifies as a cat, not a human. That's different from a fetish, I think.

If furry involves questions of identity, then I think that it belongs under Queer. Anyway, it's fine with me if furries consider themselves queer. I know straight people who consider themselves queer. The more the merrier. Anyone who considers themselves queer is on my side, as they will not be voting for right-wingers.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #140
161. You got it!
Thank you, purrs to you too!
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #137
159. For me, it is
Identity, not a fetish.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #159
168. Humans can not be cats and cats cannot be humans
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #159
172. If your identity is feline, stop bugging the GLBT group. Cats don't type. NT
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #172
174. anthropomorphic cats can
Edited on Sun Apr-20-08 02:35 AM by undergroundpanther
What about blurring the animal human demarcation lines were invented by western Abrahamic faiths ..upsets you? You know that's where that reactive rigidity regarding your nasty comments about my identity as a feline has it's origins,the same Abrahamic bullshit that condemns gay people and trans-genders and tells humans they have dominion over this planet as we kill it...

Ancient Egyptians had no problem seeing lion heads on their gods and modern Hindus don't either..
It is the Abrahamic belief structures ingrained in people as kids by this sick culture .Abrahamic belief systems are the ones that has the hostile bigot issues with gays, transgender people and furries.
Think about it.What's the big deal if I Identify MYSELF as feline, Tell me how does that make YOU less human?
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #126
153. Yay!
Welcome to fellow critter!!!( Since I don't know what type of critter you are,yet) Here's HUGS and PURRRS to you.
You have allies,At least one panther, who will stand by your right to be.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
122. Is it just a coincidence that most "furries" consider themselves "cool" animals?
I've plowed through this whole thread and seen all kinds of references to cats and wolves and so on. Don't animals like armadillos or tapirs get mistakenly placed in human bodies? What about non-furry furries? I'd be able to buy this whole concept of "born in the wrong species body" a bit more comfortably if there were a couple of newts or dugongs out there with all the cats.

Of course since my alter ego is "Rhino" maybe......*









*...nah - it's just a rugby nickname that stuck with me. I have no identity issues with rhinos - depsite being overweight, gray-skinned and short-sighted..
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Siyahamba Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #122
134. The social factor
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 09:43 PM by Siyahamba
Only a small number of self-professed "furries" actually care about the animal connection; instead they latch onto furry as a way to make friends. It's a "Hey, people like foxes/tigers/wolves, I'll be one of those!" kind of thing.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #134
156. Yeah
and I have seen gay people play straight and hide in the closet for social reasons,and I have seen straights claim to be bi for social reasons..what's your point?

My point is we are all family.
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Siyahamba Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #156
164. He asked why so many furries were the same types of species; I told him.
That was my point.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #122
154. Yeah
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 11:45 AM by undergroundpanther
Tapirs and armadillos too. One of my friends is an armadillo. And there are furs who are fish,skunks, bunnies,deer,crows,pangolins,snails it runs the range,some are mixtures of different animals at the same time , or mythological ones.
One of my roommates is an Ibis bird,a fish and a cat of uncertain type..The other two are wolves.
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RedXIII Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
124. Of course it sounds to me ..
like animalism, which various cultures like the vikings believed,because the word "Berserker" actually means "bear-shirt" because it was believed that vikings would take animal form in combat.


I'll probably start working on ears,tail,arms,feet,and legs, Because over here in Hawai'i a fursuit is way to hot to wear,the state side is one thing.
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BillSam Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
131. I can't believe this thread hasn't been LOCKED already!
Enough with the friggin' furries!
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Bladecollector Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. LGBTQF
Always room of more "family" ;-)
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #131
138. I know!
It's a fetish. No matter how much some people try to call it an identity. I have fetishes and they have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I'm a lesbian. Tons of straight people share them with me.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #138
157. Are bi curious
people indulging in a fetish?

Homosexuality was once called a "fetish" too..The Psychological view of homosexuality, it has changed drastically reflecting the current acceptance by society. Where once homosexuality was considered abnormal behavior,a fetish,and something to be cured of, it is now something which is not even considered deviant.
How did that happen? Things changed and homosexuality got
de-fetishized,by everyone but the far right wing.

So as things change, or changes are pushed and boundaries widened the definition of"fetish" changes.
Why not get rid of this notion of what is or is not a "fetish" all together and quit the stigmatizing people for being queer.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #157
167. Oh please, you're comparing it to bisexuality now?
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #131
144. I agree.
This is really not what we need.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #131
145. Agreed. Put it in a Furries forum. NT
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #145
158. No I think this thread belongs right here
Why Because it is a QUEER issue. And I being trans and furry it matters and there are other GBLT furries in here too.You non- furred people are not the only gays in here. Quit being so selfish.Put the thread on ignore or don't click it. You are an adult right? You can handle and tolerate discussions in a GBLT/Q forum online that you might not think applies to you personally?Or do you insist it be all about you and your particular color in the rainbow??
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #158
170. "You non furred people".
Buzz off.

Furriness isn't a GLBT issue. This is is the GLBT forum.

You can pretend you're anything you want, but it's not a GLBT issue.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #131
147. Meow.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #147
150. Mew?
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RedXIII Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #147
151. Arf,Arf,
woof,woof,bow-wow.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #147
155. Rrworaaarrgh!
Murf?
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #131
160. Intolerant
exclusionary,screaming because he wants to make fur identity less valid than his own particulars. Sad..Maybe he's scared the right wing and the normals will think we are weird and take our rights away? Still got your identity defined and governed by the right wing BillSam? Is this the real reason for such hostility over a discussion? You gotta censor it? WHY? WTF?
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RedXIII Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #160
165. Hypocritical...
Because Democrats have long been the party of the sexual revolution,since Woodstock.

Because i think when it will happen is, ask Alice when she's 10 feet tall.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. How about we embrance furries as part of the Democratic party, or this website?
I think we do already. But why GLBT? No one has answered that.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #166
171. Indeed. GLBT issues aren't African American Issues, which in turn aren't Jewish issues,
which in turn aren't Buddhist issues.

There's plenty of room for all identities without conflating them all into the same thing.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #166
175. There are more furries on DU than just me
Ya know.
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Oacocoa Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #175
177. hey wait a second...
cats can't talk
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #177
180. What page was this on when you kicked it?
:eyes:
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #180
181. Seriously! I Thought This Thread Died a Long, Slow, Painfully Well-Deserved Death Ages Ago.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
178. Is there a "Furry for idiots"..
I have no idea that the fuck a FURRY is.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #178
179. It's a fetish and it's not a GLBT issue
Edited on Sat May-31-08 08:32 AM by LostinVA
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papapi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 03:08 AM
Response to Original message
182. Dry, semi-moist or wet?
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Tektonik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
183. It's a fetish, I feel for you, but it's not an LGBT issue
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
184. I am a hetero
who likes to lurk in GBLT forums just to educate myself without asking inappropriate questions or otherwise pissing somebody off. I do have to say, I have learned a lot from this thread. And I've still got a lot to learn. Later folks.

:toast:
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #184
185. Please do not consider this part of the curriculum for your GLBT education
This really belongs in a fetish forum. Definitely not here.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #185
186. I have seen both sides of that argument
and have taken it into account accordingly. But I am certainly not well-versed enough in GLBT issues to cast any judgement on it one way or the other. That's for someone else. Thank you for the reply though.
:pals:
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ksdemo Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
187. No idea what furries are but have fun! ^_^
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Fran Kubelik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
188. See how many views this thread has now?
And how people with fewer than 10 posts keep showing up to kick it up to the first page? This wasn't UP's intention, but this thread is being used to mock the GLBT community. Please, can we get a lock or a thread deletion? This is embarrassingly off-topic. Wanting to dress up like or identifying as a different species has nothing whatsoever to do with gay, lesbian, bisexual or transGENDER issues. Nothing.

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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
189. Locking
Thank you for a spirited discussion. I believe most have got their say in and the consensus seems to be that it's time to shut it down.

Wickerman
DU Moderator
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