How do Hillary's stands on GLBT issues differ from Obama

[davidinalameda]

with all the Obama bashing in the GLBT forum, I'm just curious about why people think Hillary is so superior

[Bluebear]

1. She hasn't invoted ex-gays to speak for her & has marched with LGBT folk.

I think that's why I like her better on this particular issue.

[LeftCoast]

2. One thing I really disliked is that Obama has used the 'we're all sinners' line

I think ultimately the two have relatively similar positions. Obama has been a lot more clumsy getting there though.

[davidinalameda]

5. if one is a person of faith

one would agree that we are all sinners

[mondo joe]

6. But it's another thing to justify a group on that basis. I don't think he'd say we shouldn't be

anti semitic because after all we're all sinners.

Being "a sinner" is a poor basis for inclusion, and a worse political position.

[davidinalameda]

9. just found the "we're all sinners" reference

When he spoke about HIV/AIDS to evangelical leader Rick Warren’s congregation at Saddleback Church in California, Obama said, “Like no other illness, AIDS tests our ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes – to empathize with the plight of our fellow man. While most would agree that the AIDS orphan or the transfusion victim or the wronged wife contracted the disease through no fault of their own, it has too often been easy for some to point to the unfaithful husband or the promiscuous youth or the gay man and say ‘This is your fault. You have sinned.’ I don't think that's a satisfactory response. My faith reminds me that we all are sinners.”

this was directed at those at the church, not gays

[mondo joe]

10. I understand who it was directed at - but as I read it, we're called out as a group who

are sinners because we're gay. I don't like it.

[davidinalameda]

11. the people who attend those megachurches

they like to think that gays are sinners

gays and drug users who get HIV aren't the "innocent" victims like hemophiliacs and women who get it from their male partners, etc

he was calling them on it

do you remember the story of Jesus and the woman who was going to be stoned by the crowd?

those who are without sin can cast the first stone

[mondo joe]

12. I understand al of that. I don't like that as the basis of my inclusion.

I don't like it, and don't accept it.

[readmoreoften]

16. There's no excuse for calling us "sinners" in order to win sympathy for us.

It's counter-productive. Just fucking say it. Say what you mean. The man speaks so gingerly you can read whatever you want into his words. It's the art of misdirection.

You can pretty it up all you want. Call it a stirring speech. He called us sinners. Period.

If I was a politician and I said to the Southern Secession movement, "Blacks are a 'troubled race' but we should show those people love and give them our much-needed guidance because, I ask you, who among us has not been troubled?" I'd be laughed right out of the election.

I could say "oh I'm just speaking their language" but there comes a point when you have to speak for your damn self--clearly and in a forthright manner.

[davidinalameda]

20. HE DID NOT CALL US SINNERS

go and read the speech

he was speaking out against those who do call us sinners

[mondo joe]

24. Sorry but that's not my read. As I read what he said it was implicit that we're sinners

but that's somehow okay because everyone is a sinner.

Problem is, no other class of people are categorically sinners in this scenario merely by merit of their existence.

[davidinalameda]

25. you're wrong

so I'll just leave it at that

[mondo joe]

26. That's fine. We can disagree. NT

[LeftCoast]

8. If one is Christian, I suppose. But, I object to the insinuation that being gay is our sin

A state of being cannot be a sin. I certainly didn't choose to be gay, so if choice isn't involved how can it be a sin?

Edited to add: Also, I'm not a Christian and I don't believe people are all sinners anyway.

[Tyler Durden]

19. I'm an atheist. Sin is an abstract, subjective construct.

Or something like that.

I don't believe people are inherently evil any more than I believe an animal is.

TRAINING and NURTURE.

And last I checked, this is a SECULAR nation, and someone's "faith" means doodley-squat to me, with the emphasis on the SQUAT.

No offense intended. I'm certain you don't want to live by my rules and beliefs anymore than I want to live by yours.

[Chovexani]

21. Correction:

If one is a person of the CHRISTIAN faith.

I am not and I don't believe we are all sinners. For starters, I don't believe in sin. The concept is man made bullshit meant to be used as a weapon to bludgeon people into compliance.

At any rate, even if it were true it has absolutely no place in politics or public policy. In a constitutional republic with separation of church and state we don't base our laws off what constitute "sin", rather what is in the public interest.

Reason #183171 why I don't like Obama.

[Solon]

27. No they wouldn't, and I hate this fucking co-oping by Christians of terms like "person of faith"

Talk about hubris!

[Tyo]

3. I'm not an Obama fan, but....

you shouldn't take that to mean that I am waving the flag for Clinton.

However, I agree with Bluebear that Obama's whoring himself to the Fundies and the "ex"-gays for votes was crap and says a lot about his flexible approach to principle. But the major difference I see between Obama and Clinton is that Obama has effectively ruled out on religious grounds full equality for gays. Barring some sort of communication from the deity indicating that he should change his thinking Obama wants us separate but equal. Like that has worked in the past. Clinton at least doesn't appear to be shackled by religious prejudice when it comes to our rights as citizens and human beings.

[mitchtv]

4. Tyo, you have made my post unnecessary

the only thing I can add. is that the McCluckin thing doesn't make Obama a homophobe, it just exposed an ugly underbelly, where gays found out how much they were worth to his campaign, and it was handled in a very condescending tone. Generally they wait til after the convention to cut us loose, it was stunning. Edwards/Clinton not much better. I expect nothing from any of them

[Creideiki]

15. If you consider us a "fringe" group

then rather than looking at the candidates themselves, we could look at the spouses. There Elizabeth Edwards is clearly the best, followed by Bill, and then Michelle O.

[susankh4]

22. Nor was Hillary afraid to be photographed

with Mayor Newsom.

It is beyond me how Obama can feel comfortable on a stage with McClurkin but not with Newsom.

It totally rankles me.

[Creideiki]

7. Here's a posting I put up elsewhere

I don't really think Obama's a homophobe. I really don't. At the same time, I don't think he "gets it" when it comes to gay rights and the gay community. Illinois still has its DOMA, and only passed non-descrimination after the Democratic legislature, governor, and AG took over--and even then it was not a no-brainer. Obama really stands a chance. He can open an honest dialog and try to figure this stuff out.

Edwards got a pass because of two things: Elizabeth's open statements and his statements during the Visible Vote debate where he really seemed to be looking at it as a civil rights/equality issue. He's approaching things from the viewpoint that everyone in the country deserves equality and has stated that he believes that a leader at the top can change things. With Elizabeth's influence, I'd be confident that DADT, DOMA, and some form of civil recognition of partner benefits would be pushed--at least the dialog held at the national level. Edwards also got a pass because I liked his views on my other primary issues: healthcare, education, poverty, and injustice.

Hillary got one pass because I remember intimately what led up to DADT and DOMA. If Illinois can pass a DOMA, then the amendment would have gone through. I also respect Hillary's first attempt at healthcare (much more than the current incarnation), and her views, again, on the primary issues besides civil rights that I consider important. And I believe that Bill, in many ways, can be the liberal influence on Hillary as First Gentleman that she was on him as First Lady. I'm from a state that's already voted, at least, and can't bring myself to watch the 700 Club interview because I fear that she would lose that pass.

Obama got one pass because I believe he is not a homophobe. However I'm not getting warm fuzzies from Michelle, where the Democratic presidential candidates spouses seem to be able to really embrace the weakest, most vulnerable members of society. The McClurkin debacle really scares the crap out of me. That smacks of triangulation--there's so many gay votes available and so many homophobic votes available, and the homophobic vote likely outnumbers the gay-friendly vote based on the number of states with anti-gay marriage legislation and amendments. If he'll triangulate on this issue, will he triangulate on other issues? If we can get good progressives into Congress that pass legislation, will he triangulate a veto to pay back that gay-antagonistic sector of the population? It really makes me nervous.

So now I'm at a really nervous place. His VP choice will make a big statement. I honestly think he'll go with someone that I'm really, truly uncomfortable with--remember traditionally (unlike this cycle) Democrats have gone left in the primary and moved center during the GE. There's not much room to "move center" on. His education policy makes me want to vomit. Fortunately, he's solid on poverty issues, particularly where they touch onto the ethnic divisions that have hurt a lot of people unjustly. And, well, to overuse the phrase on his healthcare policy, there's no there there. It's like saying, "As president I wouldn't have vetoed SCHIP." Uh...hooray and welcome to the human race?

DK was wonderful, and I wish he could have somehow gotten past the first rounds of the primaries. That man is purely a good human being (and I wish him well in his Congressional re-election bid--hopefully he can get a higher post in the House next time, as he's earned it.) I can only hope his influence is able to resonate more strongly in the future, wherever life takes him.

McCain is like Evil-light. I don't think the country could survive 4 or (heavens forfend 8) more years of this parsing of words and humanity until nothing means anything any more. Worse, while he generally would tend, I believe, toward the center (far more than the Boy King), he's going to feel a strong pull throughout a presidency to govern further and further to the right.

[mitchtv]

13. and to be frank, his position on Nuclear power

is the farthest to the right of the three. That in itself can be a deal breaker

[Creideiki]

14. I haven't even researched the energy policies

I'm still stuck at the social policies.

Obama's education proposals are awful. Merit pay? I'm glad I'm getting out of teaching. But Hillary is also an NCLB "reformer". Get rid of the whole damned thing already. I'd be happy with that being the first thing tossed out after the inauguration. Find a way to executive order it into the trash bin where it belongs.

[TechBear_Seattle]

17. I don't think they are all that different

Both use the same rhetoric in explaining why they oppose equal marriage, both have given the same basic "some of my best friends" talk, neither have done anything of substance with regards to sponsoring or co-sponsoring equal rights legislation in the Senate, and neither have done anything meaningful to combat prejudice towards GLBT people.

Clinton has only two things going for her in this regard: She has not allowed her campaign to become a platform from which anti-gay bigots can preach their hate, and she has not quoted long passages from "ex-gay" speeches when excusing her opposition to basic human rights. Obama has done both.

[Tyler Durden]

18. The difference seems subtle, but isn't really.

HRC says "HOMOSEXUALITY is not immoral."
BO says "HOMOSEXUALS are not immoral."

The first one says there is nothing wrong with the human condition called Homosexuality, the other could be used to recruit Catholic Priests: YOU aren't immoral, what you DO is immoral.

Just one more thing BO has to apologize for.

FAITH tells BO what you do is BAD, not you personally. Gee, Thanks.

[plantwomyn]

23. "Obama bashing"

Since when is expressing your feelings and opinion "bashing". It is valid to question Obama and demand an apology for his actions concerning McClurkin et al. His "explanation" for his actions are evasive. Obama propounds his experience as a Professor of Constitutional Law yet has no compunction with "separate but equal" for GLBTs. As most of the opponents for marriage Obama bases his view on his religion.
It could have been different. There are a multitude of Faith Based leaders who support the GLBT community and our marriage. the President and General Minister of the United Church of Christ, John H. Thomas wrote in Sept. 2005 one of the best arguments for marriage equality I have ever read.
http://www.ucc.org/assets/pdfs/marreflect.pdf
Where was John H. Thomas or his equivalent that day in SC?
Why did Obama's chose a position different from his church's?
I posted this in the Obama Group on Jan. 8th. 102 views and NO replies.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=388x973
Not one Obama supporters chose to reply or even comment.
Of course the Obama Campaign chose not to reply either, so I shouldn't be surprised.
He can therefore NOT claim that his religion will NOT effect his ability to be the President of ALL Americans.
Obama's supporters will be the first through the doors of the oval office. McClurkin and those like him, will be in the front of the line. Those who represent the GLBT community will be outside in the street behind the barricades. The example set by Obama's DU supporters leads me to this conclusion.

[uppityperson]

28. Thank you for posting this and for all the replies. I am mostly staying out of GD-P

but like to read what others think about the candidates, so am visiting various topic forums, groups, etc. Thank you for posting this and for all the replies here. I'm not GLBT but try to be humane.

[Sandaasu]

29. She's not.

Some Hillary supporters just think it's productive to keep kicking the McClurkin horse, despite the fact that Obama really has been consistently good about us other than that. Meanwhile, they gladly repeat history-revising reasons for continuing to support part of DOMA.

Really though, neither's much better than the other when it comes to our issues. The ones that did stand out have dropped out anyway. It doesn't matter much though, I'm quite sure that either of them will probably pick out judges that'll side with us, and will sign any pro-GLBT legistation that comes to them.