63 yr old hetero friend uses the phrase "queer history" and it bugs me

[libnnc]

I have a friend (and professor) who is straight and she uses the term "queer" in describing GLBT studies/history. It bothers me. When I hear it from her, I can't help but hear my mother's voice and the way she uses the word, it's NOT nice. Coming from a middle aged straight woman, the word "queer" makes me uncomfortable. Am I wrong?

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. No you are not.

Have you mentioned it to her? Perhaps she feels comfortable enough to use it thinking you will know that there are no homophobic connotations... and a word from you might make her stop. It ranks up there with my grandma still using language such as "coloreds" and my mother defending her because "that's the era she was raised in".

[DURHAM D]

2. Its an academic thing - does she teach women's studies?

[libnnc]

5. She's taught a women's history course

US pre-1865. I don't think she's considered that coming from her it can sound offensive. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.

[Igel]

11. When I was taking classes in grad school

I knew a few lesbians who used the term 'queer'.

http://www.lgbtcampus.org/resources/lgbt_studies.html uses "queer studies" as a cover term for lesbian/gay studies.

I briefly helped a gay lit. professor set up her course webpage. She used the word 'queer' quite a bit; she was lesbian and proud of it, and had "reclaimed" words such as 'cunt' and 'queer' to deny those hurling them as insults any power over her. She seemed to have a principled distinction in line with the LBGT page: 'gay' was usually male, 'lesbian' was female, and 'queer' either both at once or the abstract property. Gay men and lesbians were queer. Her gay literature course specifically dealt with 'initiation', I think her term was. I have no idea if this is standard; I don't like and avoid almost all ("good") English lit--and absolutely all literary theory--from after 1930.

(I'd point out that "Jew" was a general term of abuse in the backwater I grew up in. Nobody that would Jewish would be called that, unless the locals wanted to insult him/her. "Jewish person" was the term of art to avoid insult. Then I went to N. Jersey for school, and there were lots of Jewish people around. "Jew" was their neutral term. It created problems, but I got used to hearing others use the term neutrally. I still find that it reeks slightly of contempt and ridicule and have a hard time using it myself. I had to change what I wrote a few sentences back because it sounded offensive: "No Jew would be called that, unless ..." sounded too insulting.)

[libnnc]

12. I'm a lesbian and I feel that I *can* say queer

but straight people should use it with extreme caution. I also don't feel that it should be used in the academic sense. Not all "queers" are comfortable with people from outside our community using that term. I prefer GLBT or LGBT in describing the academic course of study.

[Solo_in_MD]

23. An interesting double standard, but quite similar to what

certain comedians do...

[babylonsister]

3. I don't know, but the show "Queer Eye For The Straight Guy'" may

have made people more comfortable with the term.
I myself as a straight, 50-ish married woman, wouldn't use it. I think 'gay' is more acceptable and if I'm wrong, please correct me.

[libnnc]

9. I prefer GLBT in describing the academic course of study

I usually describe myself as lesbian. I have used "queer" in jest.

[TygrBright]

16. Well, have a care with that one, too...

...a conservative moran of my acquaintance now refers ostentatiously to "the glibbits" whenever he's referring to gay men and/or lesbians. The first time he did it, I was flummoxed: "Huh?"

"Well, you're not supposed to call them dykes and fags anymore, they wanna be called glibbits now. I'm just tryin' ta be polite," with that 'call me on it if you dare' grin. He thinks he's a wit. He's half right.

I don't know whether he's the proud originator and sole user of this particular bit of juvenalia, or whether it's coming into general use among the one-brain-cell crowd, since he's the only one I have regular contact with where the subject has come up.

Hahah. Ain't he funny.

sourly,
Bright

(ed. for typo)

[kiahzero]

37. That term is underinclusive, though. (n/t)

[Fridays Child]

4. Question...

Is it a term you would feel uncomfortable about, no matter who said it? My personal connotation is that it's a slur but gay friends of mine use it freely. So, my discomfort with the word notwithstanding, I get the impression that it's not necessarily considered derogatory. I ask this in all sincerity because, like me, it may be your own filter that's the issue here.

[hlthe2b]

6. There was a thread on this recently....

(I'll try to find it)
I just know that as a straight female, I find it offensive. It appeared that there was a generational split among the GLBT posters on that thread, with older posters seemingly agreeing with me that it was a slur. I know I would never use the term...

[Fridays Child]

8. I'm guessing that you're right. It is very much a generational issue.

I guess, though, that the OP's 63-year old friend's use of the term just proves that nothing is ever cut and dried.

[Rowdyboy]

26. Absolutely a generational divide (at least usually)....

As a 50ish guy who survived high school (barely), I HATE the term. I have nothing but horrific recollections of its use. However, I can intellectually understand how younger people might desire to "reclaim" the word.

[libnnc]

7. If she were gay or bi, it wouldn't bother me

I feel it's kinda like the 'n' word. I'm white and I'd NEVER use it, even though I have AA friends who use it among themselves. It's a generational thing too. If she were younger, I don't think it would bother me as much.

[Fridays Child]

10. I see your point. n/t

[davidinalameda]

13. no

I'm thinking that your friend is thinking that she is being trendy or something along those lines

I don't think that she means any harm though

[Glorfindel]

14. You're not wrong at all...I DESPISE that term

I don't even like to hear it from my gay brothers and sisters. I don't like "faggot," either, but I can put up with it if another gay person uses it in a funny context.

[cboy4]

15. No. Here's an analogy. One of my buddies who is African American

calls me "nigga" when we're clowning around and having fun.

It's a very casual term for him, and it doesn't bother me a bit.

And, I know he couldn't care less if I were to call him that in return, because it has become a casual term in many circles.

However, I just can't bring myself to saying that word because I'm white and it makes me uncomfortable.

She should feel uncomfortable using "queer," even if she means no harm.

Her natural red flag warning system in her brain should have kicked in.

After all, there are a lot of gay people who can't even bring themselves to using the "Q" word.....even if it is used in QAF and Queer Eye.

[Tyo]

19. So do something about it.

Have you ever talked to her about this? She is your friend, right? Maybe you should explain to her your feelings on this issue.

[libnnc]

20. um, this only happened a couple of days ago

and I only see her once or twice a week. I just thought I'd poll my friends here to see what they thought. No need to get pissy.

Edit to add: I will "do something about it". I just wanted to ask others here if it was worth confronting her about. Gotta problem with that, sparky?

[Tyo]

17. Well now that Sparky understands the situation...

he doesn't have a problem at all. If it bothers you, it's worth doing something about it. You bothered Sparky but now that Sparky understands what's going on Sparky is cool. Go for it. And let us know what happens. And by the way, I don't "get" pissy, I AM pissy.
XXX
Tyo

[libnnc]

18. Well I'm glad that Sparky's okay with it

but Mama don't cotton to kindly to "pissy" boys.

Bye, hon.

[cboy4]

21. Hey, I am the king wise ass on DU.....NOT YOU!

[Tyo]

24. No worries. I'll be the queen.

[readmoreoften]

22. Queer History is almost definitively what it is called in academia.

GGLBTQIE Studies would be a bit too much. Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual-Transgendered-Queer-Intersexed-and-Eunuch History is a bit long. "Queer" history has become the common term. When studying HISTORY you are sometimes studying sexual/gender/cultural phenomenon that predates the terms gay/lesbian and taints the ability to gather accurate historic knowledge. For example, millions upon millions of eunuchs have existed throughout human history, but they are very different form men who have had their testicles removed due to cancer (some of whom ID as "eunuch" by the way.)

It is generational. While some people don't like the term "queer", others don't like the term "gay and lesbian" because they don't fit neatly into those categories in very important ways.

[jonnyblitz]

25. there is queer history, queer studies, queer theory,etc. and that

is what it HAS been formally called for quite some time. I wouldn't get all pissy with somebody who didn't originally coin the terms that have been used as the standard terminology in academia. I don't mind being referred to as queer and prefer it to gay actually but i rarely comment on this.

[Sapphocrat]

29. Michel Foucault would agree. n/t

[mitchtv]

27. Them's fightin' words around here (when I drank)but,

It is strictly generational, and yes, that is what the courses are called, so she is cool, and since It is now supposedly an ok term. You should try to let her slide. That doesn't mean you can't let her know what you think of that very ugly term.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. queer history is perfectly acceptable for straight people to say

its a very well established phrase in academia

[libnnc]

30. Here's my problem with it...

Queer (when I was growing up) was considered a slur. Why would we name a course of study after a slur? I don't understand. And who voted to adopt this term in academia anyway?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. queers did

a lot of gay people like being identified as queer..as proving their deviance from sexual and gender norms...and rendering the word harmless by using it ourselves

[readmoreoften]

32. Queer Nation in the 80s & 90s largely popularized the term.

There is no overarching term for gender non-conforming, third gender, gay/lesbian, bisexual, polysexual, transsexual, intersexed peoples. Queer studies goes beyond the study of GLBT Americans, so those identities do not always hold.

[Sapphocrat]

33. What lionesspriyanka said.

It's short, it's genderless, it makes no distinction between L, G, B, T, Q, Q, and I (thus emphasizing community as opposed to division), and most importantly to me, co-opting it not only takes the sting out of it -- it pisses off those who would use it against us.

I speak as one who grew up when "lesbian" was nothing but a slur, too. And even "lesbian" can still be a slur, despending on the amount of spittle sprayed from the maw of a hater.

Say any word enough times, and it becomes meaningless: queer queer queer queer queer queer queer queer queer ...

"Queer" might not have been my first choice for a universal term for everybody in the LGBTetc. community, but if nobody invents a more desirable term, and markets it aggressively, a default manifests. "Queer" just happens to be the default.

Just out of curiosity, does the word "dyke" bother you?

Lea DeLaria once told the story of how a gang of teenage boys in a car passed her on the street, yelling, "DYYYYYYYYYYKE!"

Her reaction: "Yeah? And your point is...?"

Or, as I think of it: "You say queer / liberal / card-carrying member of the ACLU like it's a bad thing."

P.S. Being long past any prickling about the word "queer," I am now fighting valiantly to accept the word "gay" as a noun. When even our own start using "gays" (instead of "gay people," or "lesbians and gay men") as an inclusive term, I know it's term to re-evaluate my own revulsion toward it. It grates on me like a bastard file, but even though I am old, I can adapt.

[Vorta]

35. Sometimes things work and other times they don't.

While some blacks are given to the affectionate or comical use of 'nigger' amongst themselves or in their (Chris Rock) comedy routines, you don't see Nigger Theory 101 on college course lists. In fact, a white professor at a black college in Florida who was well respected (allegedly) had his students and college turn on him when he felt comfortable enough to use the term "nigger mentality" in one of his lectures. it was not an insult, it was a term which effectively conveyed exactly what he was talking about. Still, he was slapped down, called on the carpet, and stripped of his trust on that campus because his students decided to exert their passive-aggressive power.

I had this discussion with a "diversity trainer" in Tampa. I happen to think that black people calling each other 'nigger' is hilarious, especially when done creatively. He (who is black) disagrees; seeing it as participation rather than dissent from racism. He made a very good case. I sometimes find myself feeling that my own dear mother has "crossed the line" when she feels comfortable enough to use some words. My own gay sister sometimes crosses the line with me in camping, saying things I would find amusing in my best friend but not from my sister. I especially don't like it when she genderbends pronouns in front of my niece. I have never heard a gay woman refer to another woman as "him" or "boy".

Familiarity breeds contempt. Our whole society could do with a light refresher on good manners. That's not to say that it needs to be stifled as in the weaponry known as political correctness. We should exercise these manners because they become us, not because we fear the consequences.

[readmoreoften]

38. I have never heard a gay woman refer to another woman as "him" or "boy".

Well, if you've never referred to a lesbian refer to another lesbian as "him" or "boy" then you don't know much about lesbians or transgender people in the LGBT community.

And Queer Theory is THE ACCEPTED term in academia. It has nothing to do with "good manners". That is what it is called. That is what LGBT scholars have named it after 20 years of debate. Many people identify as queer. It is a generational thing. It is not parallel to the history of the word "nigger" in any way, shape, or form.

[Vorta]

39. a generational thing

Well, if you've never referred to a lesbian refer to another lesbian as "him" or "boy" then you don't know much about lesbians or transgender people in the LGBT community.


I used to work in a lesbian bar in DC (The Other Side). I never heard one woman refer to another with a male pronoun. My sister is a lesbian activist and I have never heard her refer to another woman with a male pronoun. Transgender folks are another matter since they seem to prefer to be identified by the sex that they identify as, and as such it would be appropriate to refer to a biomale as female or vice versa.

The parallel to the n-word is indeed there as at the time that my generation was debating the use of 'queer' with the one before it, the thinking was that the use of the word robbed it of its power in the same way that the use of the n-word by black people robs it of its power. My friend the diversity trainer also disagree with that, saying that you aren't really "reclaiming" the word, merely desensitizing yourself to it.

Years ago in referring to the womens' studies professor (Mary Brown or Smith or perhaps at Brown University or Smith College) a columnist said that her style of activism (political correctness) would drain the power of the Gay Rights Movement through divisiveness, to the point at which it became a debate over terminology. I think that the internal divisions form along the lines of such has indeed robbed the GRM of some of its power, or at least been a considerable distraction.

[Sapphocrat]

40. ...

My sister is a lesbian activist and I have never heard her refer to another woman with a male pronoun.

Then she's never met a stone butch.

[Vorta]

42. a stone butch

Then she's never met a stone butch.

I asked her about the pronouns. She said that she has heard it done, but rarely. I told her what you said, and she wondered how old you were and if you were referring to the "stone butch" of the 1930's role playing type * or if you simply use 'stone' to mean 'total'. For the latter use of stone, it is primarily her experience that the pronouns are swapped in a transgender type of situation, but again had rarely heard a female-identity lesbian refer to same by a male pronoun or as "boy" or "man".






* referring to a woman, usually working class, who impersonated a man and performed sex on a woman, usually without removing her own clothes exlcusive of the idea of transgender.

[readmoreoften]

43. Yeah, it's not a stone butch of the 1930s role-playing type okay.

It's a stone butch of the 1930s through 2006 type and we do call each other "he" and "him" and butches and femmes are a huge part of lesbian culture and always have been. And you don't need to add asterisks and ethnographic definitions to explain what butches are, because we know what butches are around here, because some of us are butches and some of us only date them. Stone butches are inherently transgendered (although not transsexual) and not they are not "impersonating a man".

Listen, I don't mind when someone is ignorant of GLBT history. We all can't know everything there is to know, but please don't come around trying to educate folks about their own lives on this board (especially with highly inaccurate academic descriptions). Instead of coming around and telling us who we are because of what you know through your sister, you'd make more friends if you listened and learned.

And a belated welcome to DU.

[Vorta]

44. Our discussion

And you don't need to add asterisks and ethnographic definitions to explain what butches are, because we know what butches are around here,

I was simply relaying the conversation, this portion of which was driven by the suggestion that neither I nor my sister had sufficient exposure to be aware of the practice despite being quite active in the gay community. It was she that wondered what definition of "stone butch" was in play, I had assumed you simply meant very butch in the same way that stone fox might be used. When we have multiple definitions in play, underlying misunderstandings, and a limited venue of communication it is not pedantic or condescending for one to define his terms.

It's also fair for her to have wondered about your age, to know if the person with whom I was having this discussion was an older woman who might have experiences not often found in this day and time, or a younger woman whose experiences a 50 year old woman (my sister) would not likely be in touch with.

Stone butches are inherently transgendered (although not transsexual) and not they are not "impersonating a man".

I don't think there is a foundation for deciding that groups of people are inherently transgendered. Individuals are transgendered. Awhile back I read an article where Pat Califia was promoting the idea that all gay people are essentially transgendered. I disagree, and am free to do so.

I would say that you are talking about a fairly small subgroup and it's not surprising that I don't share you experience. I try to be accurate in what I am saying, which is why you will find that I often confine my observations to that which is "in my experience" rather than expressing my experience as universal.

[readmoreoften]

45. So does your sister completely ignorant of this phenomenon or does she engage in it?

"My own gay sister sometimes crosses the line with me in camping, saying things I would find amusing in my best friend but not from my sister. I especially don't like it when she genderbends pronouns in front of my niece."

What's the story. She either does it and it annoys you, or she's never heard of it. Which is it?

No, transgendered means crossing genders. All stone butches are transgendered by definition. It's not an individual thing that one gets to choose. To say stone butches aren't transgendered is like saying femmes aren't necessarily feminine unless they say so. It is inherent in their definition.

[Vorta]

47. read more carefully

What's the story. She either does it and it annoys you, or she's never heard of it. Which is it?

What I said was:

"I especially don't like it when she genderbends pronouns in front of my niece. I have never heard a gay woman refer to another woman as "him" or "boy""

More concisely: she will use a female pronoun for a male but she doesn't use male pronouns for women.

No, transgendered means crossing genders. All stone butches are transgendered by definition.

A fact which is no doubt carved in stone somewhere. Frankly I find the whole role-playing thing a bit dated. Thanks for being so snotty to me.

[readmoreoften]

50. I'll let your ignorant comments about lesbians stand on their own merits.

I have nothing more to say to you other than I hope your stay is short.

[Sapphocrat]

46. You crack me up. And so does your sister.

I'm afraid your sister has led a very sheltered gay existence -- if she's really gay at all. You would do well not to rely on her limited experience as the final authority -- or any authority, for that matter.

Did she get her definition of "stone butch" out of a Lillian Faderman book? If she has to ask if I'm a relic of the 1930s because I know what a stone butch is and she doesn't, then she really needs to get out more.

Start doing your own homework, Vorta. Then you can start teaching this "lesbian" sister of yours a few things too.

"Role-playing type" -- Are you trying to be offensive with this?

Finally, your defintition of same does sound like it came out of a book, or off a Web site. What in the world do you know about lesbian sexuality?

[Vorta]

48. You're probably right

I'm afraid your sister has led a very sheltered gay existence -- if she's really gay at all. You would do well not to rely on her limited experience as the final authority -- or any authority, for that matter.

You unquestionably define the gay experience and anyone who doesn't share you experience has obviously led a sheltered life or is lying. I confess I am disappointed. I thought you were feisty in a fun way, but you seem to just be nasty in a pointless way. Bye.

[readmoreoften]

49. Yeah and all we're doing is helping you get your post count up

so you can act like you're hear for reasons other than disrupting.

[Sapphocrat]

52. LOL!

You can see me as nasty as you like, but I'm never pointless.

Word to the wise: Thicken up that skin, kid. If you think I'm the biggest ol' meany you're ever going to run into on a message board, your ignore list is going to be longer than the 9/11 Commission Report.

P.S. Being a stone butch is not and never was my experience. My, you do assume a lot.

[readmoreoften]

51. Faderman? S/he got it off wikipedia. /nt

[bicentennial_baby]

53. She should read "Stone Butch Blues" then....

Classic book.

[Sapphocrat]

54. Excellent suggestion.

Not that there's anything wrong with Faderman, but-- Hm, maybe we need to compose a LGBT History 101 reading list.

[bicentennial_baby]

55. Agreed

A fantastic idea!

[Jamastiene]

34. No, unless the person is close to you and you know

they don't mean anything bad, per se, you are absolutely right to be concerned.

[sui generis]

36. too sensitive. it's just a word

I wouldn't worry about it - especially if she was trying to "fit in".

Seriously, we aren't the only ones who watched Will and Grace.

[mondo joe]

41. I don't want to attach that much importance to words. We're not that fragile.

We won't break.

If it's okay for us to use the word it ought to be okay for straights too, IMO.