If a lesbian woman becomes a hetero man...

[blueinchicago]

Can she marry a hetero woman? After all marriage in most states now is officially between a man and a woman. So when the lesbian becomes a man, she should legally be able to marry.


Also,

If a hermaphrodite wants to marry another hermaphrodite, will that violate the Defense of Marriage Act? You could argue that the male "half" is marrying the female "half" and vice versa, so its legal...on the other hand, what if the male half is marrying the male half and the female half is marrying the female half, so it's ILLegal? (I'd love to see THAT on CourtTV!)

(kidding)

[Maven]

1. If a train leaves Boston at 5 P.M., and travels at a rate of 60 MPH,

how long will it take to drive over Sen. Inhofe on the way to Ellen Degeneres's house?

[serryjw]

5. Thank You..I needed a good laugh

You chose my 2nd least favorite senator

[cboy4]

2. Lesbian woman? As opposed to a lesbian man?

:shrug:

[swimmernsecretsea]

3. 2+2=Blue

Whoops. Acid flashback. My bad.

[Maven]

6. LOL.

[sui generis]

11. hey the blue stuff was pretty good

I stayed away from the brown stuff and microdots.

Whoa!!!!! did you just see that????

thought I was having a flashback there for a moment. Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.



:rofl:

[longship]

4. This is a very real problem for the GOP's position on Def of Marr Act

Cases like you mention really mess-up the Defense of Marriage Act (DMA).

Do transgendered individuals have the right to marry? And if so, which gender are they? Is it their birth gender? Or their adopted gender? Remember, many TG individuals change their birth certificates to align with their adopted gender. So, how is the Def of Marriage Act handle these cases? Which gender is a transgendered person who opts to not have sexual reassignment surgery?

If that doesn't sufficiently mess things up for the DMA, consider the intersexed, those individuals born with indeterminent gender or genitalia. Some of these individuals live part of their lives as one gender and change to the other later. There are those intersexed who argue for a third gender classification which is neither male nor female and live their lives accordingly. Are the right wingers going to insist, contrary to all medical evidence, that these individuals are a specific gender that may not be the same gender with which the intersexed individual is living their life?

If the DMA defines marriage merely as between a man and woman how does it handle these cases? If they go to the extreme of defining man and woman, even as birth gender, they're screwed because even that isn't so well defined.

Any of these cases messes up the Defense of Marriage Act to no end. No matter which side the lunatics take on this, it comes back and bites them in the ass.

Face it, folks. Making laws that deny people rights is total madness.

[Guy Fawkes]

7. I believe hermaphroditia in humans is lethal in most cases...

True hermaphroditia, that is. There are people born (VERY rarely) with a mix of accessories down there... but that's usually "corrected" surgically, right after birth.

[AlienGirl]

8. It's not lethal, and intersexed conditions aren't all that rare

True hermaphroditism (that is, functioning testes and functioning ovaries) in humans is pretty rare. In these cases the person is often a chimera--they began life as two fertilized eggs which eventually merged to form one zygote. This PubMed abstract describes one such case.

More common are people whose gonadal tissue hasn't differentiated--they have ovariotesticular tissue, not ovaries or testes. Some people with this condition look perfectly "normal" on the outside, but are nevertheless intersexed.

Tucker

[sui generis]

12. I saw in a study it'sactually around 3% of the population that

is chromosomally intersexed, if not outwardly.

I think that's the real reason most state marriage licenses refer you to your birth certificate "declaration" and not a chromosome test . . . it would be too embarrassing to too many bigots to find out that THEY'RE BORN THAT WAY and wouldn't "be allowed" to get married.

Can't vouch for the study - I think it was a Discovery channel show or maybe a news special; don't remember. Anyone else remember more detail?

[AlienGirl]

13. I think the 3% includes both chromosomal and non-chromosomal

IIRC the chromosomal level is around 1-2%, many of whom have Kleinfelter's syndrome (47XXY) and the others who either have non-XX/non-XY genotype not covered under Kleinfelter's, or whose condition derives from other causes, like hormone levels in the womb or androgen insensitivity syndrome. Overall, about 1% of the population has genitalia that is different from standard male or female appearance at birth--but since many conditions of intersexuality aren't apparent at birth, that's a low figure for the actual incidence.

Tucker

[UncleSepp]

26. The down there bits aren't really what determines that

What determines a "true hermaphrodite" is usually the presence of ovotestes, or of one ovary and one testis. The "accessories down there" are not relevant to the diagnosis.

Not only is it usually not fatal, it can go undetected far into adulthood. Female true hermaphrodites having ovotestes in which the ovarian tissue produces eggs have given birth and only later were diagnosed - femaleness meaning that she appears female and is sexually functional as a female. It is rare for a true hermaphrodite to father children, as spermatogenesis rarely occurs in the ovotestis, but it does happen.

[BR_Parkway]

9. You're going to make the fundies think - and you know how

much they hate having to do that.

[Morning Dew]

10. Court TV? It's been done

http://www.courttv.com/trials/kantaras/law.html


"A Florida custody battle between Linda Kantaras and her transsexual husband, Michael, results in a decision granting Michael custody. The case is likely to set a precedent for future cases that deal with defining marriages and the parental rights of transsexuals."

[liontamer]

14. I've only heard of it happening the other way

"Straight" man marries straight woman, then transitions.

[readmoreoften]

15. There are plenty of transmen who want to marry. /nt

[liontamer]

16. lots of people want to marry

do you know any who legally got to marry their partners?

[readmoreoften]

17. In NYC transmen can marry women, but there are stringent rules.

They must undergo bottom surgery, which is medically risky, and unwanted by MANY transmen.

[liontamer]

18. good to know

do you know if there are rules about which procedure must be undergone?

[readmoreoften]

19. Vaginectomy & Hysterectomy

I don't know if the state cares about metoidoplasty (sp) or phalloplasty, but I think that one is required. Not 100% sure on that.

[Jamastiene]

24. I know why too.

Has anyone seen how deformed the bottom surgery looks. It looks like they'd make that a little bit better than they do. If I was lucky enough to get my GR surgery, I'd want a better phalloplasty than they currently have. That's for sure.

[MsUnderstood]

20. okay here is a true story

In my town a man married to a woman became a woman. That Trans-gendered male to female is in a legally binding marriage because she. . .er he . . .no she. . .married while a man and the gender change did not void his. . .er her. . .marriage.

But if you ask this woman if SHE is a lesbian (or ask her wife for that matter) she strongly denies it.

So in my town, 2 women are legally married but all I got was this silly DP registration card.

[readmoreoften]

21. My friend is MTF and married a man.

It said F on her driver's license because when she went for a renewal the clerk didn't question that she was female. Then she just got married. Now she's in a straight relationship. She was a lesbian feminist though for a really long time. She says that she's had sex with a woman as a man, with a man as a woman, with a woman as a woman, and with another transgendered person, but she has never had sex with a man as a man.

[2QT2BSTR8]

22. Two things I would like to say on this topic..

Since the recent attempts made by our idiotic senators to amend the constitution does not include marriage between "a biologically born man and a biologically born woman", the argument could be made that i.e. A guy could have a sex change operation to become a woman, get married to a man. What happens if that same man then decides to have the operation to change back to a man, would that invalidate the marriage? I say no, because the couple was married while one was a man, and one was surgically altered woman. I would be curious to see if anyone really knows the answer to this. Has this topic already been addressed?

Secondly - a few years ago, I became friends with two guys who had been a couple for almost a decade. Nathan and Joe seemed to be very happy as a couple, so needless to say I was rather surprised when Joe told me she wanted to become Johanna. She came home from having the operation overseas, about a month after she had told me. Then she told Brian that rather than being a gay man, that she now considered herself as a lesbian, only wanting to be with another woman, instead of a man. I moved away from the city in which we all had lived, but I am really curious if this is common for this sort of thing to happen. i.e. Gay man becomes gay woman, gay woman decides she is a lesbian, and only wants to be with women instead of men.

Thoughts anyone?

[mockmonkey]

25. My SO was born female

we got married first and then he transitioned to male. We are still legally married but I'm wondering what kind of mess the Federal government is going to throw at us later.

It's not possible for someone to change back to male after the operation to be female. They could stop taking the female hormones but there is no way to reconstruct the penis to the way it was before. I've only heard of one case where after the operation they felt they had made a huge mistake. They would just have to try as best they can to live intersexed. Most Female to Male (like my partner) do not want the bottom surgery because it is just not as advanced as the Male to Female surgery.

As for Nathan and Joe, someones sexual preference is already established and a change in their gender shouldn't have any effect on that. But then again, hormones are a powerful thing maybe it just brought out and intensified some hidden feelings.

Labels...I am bisexual, my partner considers himself gay. I think it's helpful if someone transgendered can find a partner that is bisexual because it is a transition for both people.

[Jamastiene]

23. I've wondered about that myself.

I once saw a statistic (I think it was a Rolling Stone magazine special article about hermaphrodites and how they routinely make the female) that said that as many as 1 in 1000 people are born with genitalia that is indistinct. The way our government thinks though is almost genocidal. They'd probably say no to both. I do know that many states don't recognize a person who has had gender reassignment surgery as the sex they became afterward. I wish I could find the documentation on it right now, but it has been a while since we had digital cable and I could watch great documentaries on the topic.

[UncleSepp]

27. If a lesbian woman becomes a hetero man, he may marry a woman

"She" won't be marrying anyone. :-P I know, the terminology can get weird if you're not used to it. A person designated legally as male can marry a person designated legally as female. In a state that recognizes a change in legal gender designation, a person can marry another person of the opposite legal gender.

There is effectively no legal designation for intersex. (There are a few individual exceptions to this, but they are exceptions made for individual people, not established legal categories.) People get filed as either M or F. If a person is intersexed, there is no legal "male half" or "female half". There is a whole person, who is legally either male or female.

It's a fun question, isn't it? *laugh* Today my mom related a question from my cousin, who asked if I will be a gay man or a straight man. Hmm... I don't know how to answer that myself. Gee, if I like mostly men, does that make me gay? I wasn't gay before, but I wasn't straight either. Is my husband gradually and magically turning gay? If I was always male on the inside, was he always gay on the inside?

Man, these questions would be a lot better with some pot.

[readmoreoften]

28. Damn Uncle Sepp, I thought you liked the ladies....

I had a little bit of a crush goin'. Now I'm disappointed, but in a meaningless online way. :evilgrin: