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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 05:05 PM
Original message
My smackdown of a quack "gays are biologically defective" geneticist
Edited on Tue Mar-14-06 05:10 PM by Harvey Korman
For those of you who didn't read the article this "scientist" wrote, you can do so here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=30040&mesg_id=30040

The article was written by Dr. Daniel Nebert of the University of Cincinnati, and purports to explain in scientific terms why homosexuality is abnormal and a "biological defect." It stops just short of recommending eugenic "cleansing" of this defective gene.

I wrote an angry letter to the doctor, which you can read here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=30040&mesg_id=30049

Dr. Nebert replied:

My "Your Voice" article today is not at all about "homophobia" or "gay-bashing" but rather I was trying to inject some objectivity into a very vitreolic, emotional (also political? certainly religious) topic. Also, I had written far more than the 420-word limit, so the newspaper editors chopped where they saw fit (without consulting me)---which spoiled some of the flow of my logic.

I have often discussed with colleagues (yes, some of my best friends are "gay"), the possible evolutionary advantages for maintaining "gay" genes at 1%-2% expressivity in human populations. One reason might be as simple as a "nurturing" behavior (there is a gradient of "maleness" and "femaleness" in all of us. Alternatively, or one or more gay genes may be tightly linked with "creativity" or "intelligence", because most homosexual men or women I've known are also highly creative and intelligent.

Deleted from my article offered to the newspaper was this whole paragraph: Putting aside religious objections to homosexuality, let’s consider the science. If homosexuality were to become a dominant trait in any species, that species would soon become extinct. Imagine a nuclear holocaust wherein all people are killed and all transportation destroyed, except for six 20-year-olds on the entire planet: in a fertile valley on one continent are two males, on another continent two females, and on a third continent one male and one female. One hundred years later, what would we have? Obviously, generations would be multiplying on just one continent.

Genetically speaking, the ONLY thing important for evolution of a species is to reproduce sound, healthy offspring. Also genetically speaking, "wild-type, consensus, reference and normal" alleles are defined as those promoting future generations of the species. All alleles (and we have dozens of hundreds for each and every gene) other than the "wild-type" have been described as "abnormal, unnormal, minor, deviant, variant, mutant"---take your pick. So, alleles that reflect homosexuality, stuttering, dyslexia, lefthandedness, diabetes, color-blindness, coronary artery disease, obesity, asthma, cancer, etc.---are not normal (call them whatever you want). And (as one of my gay friends pointed out), even on "this continent where we started life over with one male and one female" (see paragraph above), would homosexuality re-emerge as a trait..? Yes, probably, within 500 or 2000 years, on the reasons I've stated above.

Finally, it has been estimated that "each of us has between 6 and 14 mutant alleles". I would contend it's probably more like 50 or 100 mutant alleles in the genome of each of us. So, of course, NO ONE is "normal", no one has 100% "wild-type" genes. Everyone should get over it, so that we can deal with more important issues in our society....! There is absolutely no "eugenics" discussed or intended in my article.


An obvious attempt to silence me with a torrent of jargon. Nice try.

My reply:

Dr. Nebert:

Thank you for your response.

1) I’m wondering where you get the 1 to 2% expressivity number, which seems to imply some discrete, phenotypical group whereas behavioral studies performed since the ’50s (I won’t name names) indicate a far more fluid pattern of sexual behavior across the entire human population, onto which stricter categories of identity have been socially imposed. Since you acknowledge the “gradient of ‘maleness’ and ‘femaleness’”—not the proper way to conceptualize it, but I won’t split hairs—it follows from your own assessments that human sexual behavior cannot be reduced to percentages. Furthermore, certainly it’s occurred to you that social, political (certainly religious) inhibitions make accurate assessments of same-sex attraction across the species nearly impossible.

2) While I understand your (misguided) desire to find some evolutionary purpose or advantage to a gay gene—nurturing or intelligence are your examples—don’t you think it a bit questionable to base these hypotheses merely on your (I’m guessing, limited) exposure to gay men and lesbians? For example, while to your perception male homosexuality is an appropriation of “feminine” traits, how do you explain the fact that most gay males actually exhibit a hypermasculine aesthetic and persona, and seek the same in their partners? Why need there be any evolutionary “purpose” to sexual diversity at all? Are there no other human physiological and behavioral features that have been recycled throughout evolution to present, despite their lack of a reproductive role?

3) I’m not sure how the omitted paragraph you provided helps your case, since it’s blatantly misleading. The failure of two men or two women alone on an island to reproduce has nothing to do with their respective sexual orientations, nor does such a scenario serve as an accurate model of a parallel gay universe. Were the continuance of the species in the hands of a gay man and a lesbian alone together on an island, believe me, they’d work something out. Thanks to our evolved cognitive capacities, human reproduction is not an enterprise limited to pheromones and mating calls. Admit it: the only possible purpose of your distorted hypothetical was to perpetuate the ridiculous lie that gays and lesbians can’t or don’t reproduce, and are therefore a biological dead-end—I’m sorry—a “defect.”

4) In general, I find your overall treatment of the subject of a “gay gene” unconvincing and manipulative. That is, I highly doubt that someone in your field actually believes that a single “gay gene” exists and is somehow separable from other “normal,” wild-type genes for sexual behavior. Isn’t it possible (and more likely) that different sexual behaviors obtain from a complex system of genes present in everyone, interacting both between them and with other chemical factors that control their expression, producing a wealth of phenotypes that we then socially categorize? The idea of a “gay gene” is basically a reductionist straw-man, and reflects a blindness to the great variances in sexual behavior that occur throughout a single lifetime and across the entire species. Of course, this type of complexity doesn’t make for a very compelling “opinion” piece singling out a particular group, does it?

5) I also find unconvincing your claim that the choice of the words “normal,” “normality,” “mutant,” etc. were merely an innocent reference to scientific terminology, especially since you didn’t alert readers that lefthandedness is also “abnormal” in geneticist-speak. The fact is, you were writing an editorial, not a peer-reviewed article. You had to know that average readers of your piece would conflate genetic “normality” with their own social conceptions of what is “normal.” The word “mutant” means something far more cruel and inhuman when applied to a person and not an allele. No matter; the fact remains that calling homosexuality a “biological defect” belies your story. Consider: would you write an opinion piece calling left-handedness a “biological defect?” At very least, I think you should apologize to the “biological defectives” who sit in your classes and pass you in the halls. I, for one, would find it very difficult to study under you or share a coffee in the faculty lounge after reading your article.

Let’s get real. This was a piece meant to bolster a political viewpoint by couching it in scientific jargon and academic credentials. Your resentful reference to the “secular-progressive movement” is evidence enough of that. To pretend that your intention was to “inject objectivity” into the topic by writing an opinion piece is intellectually dishonest. Express your personal viewpoints honestly in an article, fine. But don’t use science to impart an aura of authority to your own personal prejudices.

Yours,

(me)


These people are now trying to co-opt science, and must be stopped. I'm deciding whether or not to report him to the Department Chair or the Dean.
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BR_Parkway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why don't we start typing "straight" in quotes the way they always
do "gay"? Do you think "straight" people might find it offensive?
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I thought about addressing that
Edited on Tue Mar-14-06 05:30 PM by Harvey Korman
And then I decided not to bother. I figured it would detract from more important points, and considering his whole "some of my best friends are gay" bit, I thought it futile given the caliber person we're dealing with here.

For a geneticist, he doesn't seem to be too adept at logical reasoning either. If he actually believes his two-men-on-an-island scenario demonstrates anything useful, he can't be too bright. Either that, or he takes everyone else for a fool.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. i go through periods of calling them non-gay.
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bhb Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Love that.
Non-gay or "straight" works for me. I still have issue when they call us homosexuals. It sounds way too scientific. I'm happy with gay.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. I prefer "strait" as in restricted like "Straits of Gibraltar"
Edited on Wed Mar-15-06 02:23 PM by mitchtv
Or "dire straits"
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jumpoffdaplanet Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. What a great idea, leave breeding to homosexuals
That guarantees all children are wanted.

What the hell is wrong with that?
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. I hate to say it but I can see his point
not agree completely but I can see where his speculative thinking arrived at a conclusion like this.

I believe that the biggest mistake scientists who want to study homosexuality make (whether with an agenda or not) is to assume that homosexuality is polar; that you are either all one thing all the time or the other.

The reality is any human who masturbates is capable of homosexual behavior, and it's not a huge intellectual leap to think that we're NOT animals, and capable of addressing more than just genetic expression.

Here's my crackpot theory, and please run with it:

Gay Men Are Hyper Heterosexuals. We have an innate genetic confusion between buttocks and REALLY BIGASS MANAMBAJAMBA LABIA. :rofl:

Have fun with it. My gift to all gay "scientists", pardon the quotes, and may your labia always receive funding.

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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. ROFL
Edited on Tue Mar-14-06 06:16 PM by Harvey Korman
MANAMBAJAMBA.

I can see how he got from point A to point B too. It's called flawed logic and one-sided thinking. This is also not his area of expertise. He doesn't study sexual behavior.

If you actually look at the work of scientists who have studied this (e.g., Dean Hamer or Eric Vilain, there are other examples but I can't think of them off the top of my head) they'll be the first to admit that there probably is no single "gay gene" and that sexuality is too complex to be tied down to an on/off switch.

The other thing is that (as I said in the letter) he was perpetrating a deception--trying to give people's personal prejudices an "objective" justification in science when really what he was doing was writing an opinion piece. To use the word "defective" is to make a normative judgment. When someone actually called him on it, he fell back on a false "it's just science" rationale and disclaimed any political interest in the subject.

I find this especially insidious after reading the New Yorker article on how the right wing is now massively distorting science from the inside.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. He's a naive reductionist

and I say that in the nicest possible way as another person in the molecular/genetic developmental biology business. Too bad he squeezes bad thinking into a somewhat bigoted outlook.

Let me point to the real problems he has.

1. He hasn't actually established the mode of inheritance of homosexuality, or susceptibility, for human beings. He's just wrongly overgeneralizing from the one thing he knows fairly well- the properties of the "fruitless" mutation and gene product in fruitflies.

The mode of inheritance of human homosexuality is more complicated. Female homosexuality is semidominant/multifactorial and probably zygotic effect, and is an unambiguously established trait in ~1% of human females. Male homosexuality looks messy, some of it perhaps zygotic effect but much/most of it appears to be maternal effect (i.e. uterine environment), and is an unambigously established trait in ~3.5% of American males.

So the "expressivity" idea is all wrong for something like 50% of gay people to begin with.

2. Maternal effect mutations of low penetrance and indirect effect don't, and won't, sort according to the rules of genetic equilibrium in the way he imagines. Mr. Nebert should consider that many signalling systems used in development are re-used in adult organ or physiological function, and perhaps evolutionary selection for function or dysfunctions is in the latter. Then a secondary trait, e.g. homosexuality or bisexuality, could arise as a population-wide, but statistically irrelevant to species success, side effect in the early developmental function.

So there's no chance of his notion of selection pressures against homosexuality working out either. In fact, a selection pressure for fetal survival in utero against some deadly biological agent at a price of loss of accuracy in achieving chromosomal sexual identity in the nervous system hardwiring could be a pressure to more homosexuality. Loss of such accuracy would result in selection for skewing that identity one way or the other. One could say that if male homosexuality arises from challenges/aberrated conditions in utero, it drives selection for mutations that aberrate female embyros, i.e. create lesbianism as a side effect, to rescue some proportion of male embryos.

3. The primary sexual identity patterning of metazoan nervous systems is (a) hardwired and (b) achieved soon after gastrulation. No steroid hormones are involved in that, and it happens two trimesters prior to the third trimester.

It would really be a service to the field if people like Mr. Nebert actually read the relevant papers and did some rigorous, scientific, thinking. Maybe those standards are somewhat lacking in Cincinnati.
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thank you for this
Edited on Tue Mar-14-06 06:33 PM by Harvey Korman
Obviously, there are specific empirical problems with his theories, which someone with your expertise is better equipped to point out. :yourock:

I just tried to (more generally) point out the logical fallacies and pseudoscientific doublespeak.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. homosexuality is in my opinion an evolutionary necessity
the worlds way of enforcing birth control.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I've often thought that myself.
Nature produces gays when population growth places stress on the population in general.

We could just be saving the world, folks. Celebrate us!
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
11. Great rebuttal
Edited on Wed Mar-15-06 03:56 AM by BuffyTheFundieSlayer
He makes such a big deal about that "omitted paragraph" which really makes no sense. Always these people come up with far-fetched hypothetical that would never happen in any real life scenario to try to point out why what they are arguing against is wrong. It just shows how they are grasping at straws and have no real arguments with which to work when they resort to this garbage.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. A big recommendation for this one!
What a great rebuttal!

Good gracious, I hope that if I ever find myself in a courtoom you'll be on MY side!
:D

BTW, I'd report this prick to the Dean AND the Dept Chair.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
13. By the way....
Edited on Wed Mar-15-06 08:16 AM by theHandpuppet
It's rather disingenuous of Herr Doktor to deny any political motivations in his games of semantics when he pens editorials such as this one, published in the Enquirer in 2005:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050115/EDIT02/501150339/1021/EDIT

(Excerpts)

"Then the 1960s migration of hippies and flower children came northward, from California to British Columbia, along the "Marijuana Trail." These baby boomers liked what they saw in the Pacific Northwest and stayed and raised families. White-collar industries (Tektronix, Nike, biotech companies) flourished, and there was a massive influx of young people who have never worked with their hands; they've had a soft life with few worries, and time to contemplate their navels. These people are seen today especially in urban areas, Hollywood, academia and in the media; they vote heavily Democratic...

"As life continues to get easier and our children have children, will we see increasing godless secularism and less god-fearing traditionalism? Or will these two groups stay nearly equal? Or will the years ahead become more difficult, due to the expanding war on terrorism, moving people toward traditionalism and away from secularism? Only time will tell."
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Very strange
I think Mr. Nebert picked the wrong field.

I love the last paragraph...obviously, a "harder life" strips people of intelligence, and they move toward gawd-fearin' traditionalism. Jerk.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. let's put this on a bit baser level
if I have to have sex with a woman in order to keep the species going, I can probably do it

there are lesbians who have kids and there are gay men who father them

and I agree with lion-I honestly believe that gayness is a way for nature to hold down the population

if all of us were in breeder mode, there would a hell of a lot more than 6 billion people in the world

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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. Some of my best friends are gay.
:eyes:

That's like the skin head saying "Some of my best friends are black. I don't hate them, I just want to rid the world of their birth defect of being born with darker skin."

:eyes:
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Yea, you caught that also! Some of my best friends are gay....
Some of my best friends are Hispanic. Some of my best friends are Muslim.....blah blah blah

Brother. :eyes:



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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
20. Nice Smackdown! If for real some of his "best friends are gay,"
I can pretty much predict they are no longer his best friends if any of them have read his trash.
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