A conservative’s thoughts on gay rights

[cboy4]

Interesting. People like this are so frustrating. He makes a lot of contradictory statements in his purported "support" for gay equality.

I'd like to know if he would have voted against Prop 8. I sense he would have, and how hypocritical is that?




Jeffrey Moats
West Virginia Conservative Examiner

March 17, 1:50 AM

I was recently looking over Senate Bill 238 concerning the protection of homosexuals from discrimination in West Virginia. While I think that private individuals should be able to discriminate however they want in the renting of their property or filling jobs with their company, the fact that so many groups are already protected it only seems logical that sexual orientation would be protected as well. I am glad to see that Senate Bill 238 is moving along.

As I was thinking about this bill the whole subject of gay rights came to mind. First, let me state that as a Christian (a struggling one, but still a Christian) I believe that homosexuality is immoral. However homosexuality does not harm me, my family, or anyone else. Some may argue that homosexuals are a bad influence on children, but in this age of rampant vulgarity I find that argument amusing. In a world where children are surrounded by ignorance, vulgarity, violence, sex and all sorts of crudeness, two guys holding hands in a gas station is not a big deal. Government has no business regulating the behavior of people in any way unless it causes harm to others. Homosexuality causes no harm to anyone else so there is no reason that gay and lesbian citizens should not be afforded the same rights as everyone else in our society.

The major gay rights issue these days is gay marriage. While I am opposed to gay marriage, I am also opposed to the government’s role in marriage altogether. Marriage should be between one man, one woman, and God. The state has no role to play. However, under our current system married couples are afforded privileges that others in society do not have. It is quite simply mean spirited and cruel to not allow gays and lesbians the same rights. Clearly, gay and lesbian couples should be afforded the same rights as anyone else. The whole idea that gay and lesbian couples are not allowed to participate in end of life planning, estate transactions, and other benefits afforded to married couples is discriminatory and some sort of legal remedy should be created. When it is my turn to kick the bucket I want who I want in the room, I want who I want to get my stuff, and gay and lesbian individuals should have the same rights.

With the government spending more money than the next 10 generations can ever hope to repay, with Islamic terrorists wanting to saw our heads off, and a multitude of other problems that could cause the collapse of our way of life, it seems to me that sexual orientation of individuals should be one of the last things that anyone should be worried about. Pass the dang bill and let’s get on with the government’s work.

http://www.examiner.com/x-3752-West-Virginia-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m3d17-A-conservatives-thoughts-on-gay-rights-and-Senate-Bill-238

[Ian David]

1. I believe he would be classified as a "Goldwater Conservative."

If you can't rid the planet of Conservatives, you're better off with THIS kind of Conservative.

[progressoid]

13. I sometimes find myself actually welcoming this kind of conservative

After the long run of angry, fundy, neo-con, ditto-head, conservatives, it's almost refreshing to hear pre-Reagan conservatism.

[sailor65]

2. He's got exactly the right attitude

He states his own beliefs, and then states very clearly that neither he nor government has any business dictating your love life. If only more Democratic politicians were so clear.

His position appears very similar to Biden's. In fact he's stated what I think is Biden's position much better than Biden ever has. Are you frustrated simply because he is conservative?

[cboy4]

4. Ummm, he said that the life I live is immoral....you don't think

that "frustrates" me?

He also said he thinks discrimination in the work place and in housing is fine, before he contradicted himself and said he thinks well hell, since so many other groups are protected, might as well throw teh gays in there.

He's opposed to gay marriage. You don't think that "frustrates" me?

His positions may seem similar to Biden's, but you won't hear Biden call gay people immoral and you won't hear Biden say people should have the right to discriminate.

I see no similarities between this person in West Virginia and the Vice President of the United States.

Sorry.

[sailor65]

11. I used the word frustrated

because you did, in your intro. I wondered why you were frustrated in light of what I thought were obvious parallels.

But I do still see many similarities. Those in power now have found every way under the sun to say the same thing this guy did while pretending not to say it. And actually, to say he is similar is to be overgenerous to the current powers that be. This guy is more vociferous in favor of equality than either Biden OR Obama has been. And as far as hearing Biden say it, give him a few more "Open mic" opportunities. Because I think if the admin truly believed in full equality, they would say so without all the hedging, framing, and two-stepping.

There will always be someone out there who thinks something about you, me, or anyone else is "Immoral." What sets this guy apart is that he follows by making it clear that no one, including him, has any business dictating to you, and that regardless of his own feelings, you deserve all the same rights he has. Although I don't agree with his personal ideals on the topic, his attitude about you being entitled to ALL the rights he has is still the right one in my eyes.

edited for spelling.......

[Toasterlad]

15. Why Do You Care What He Thinks of Your Life?

He declares that his beliefs shouldn't affect the way you are treated by the law. Why would you possibly want more than that? If you want all the homophobes to get down on their knees and kiss your balls and say, "we were wrong...you guys are all SUPER people!" before you're happy, well....you're going to be UNhappy for a LONG time.

[cboy4]

16. Yea, what's wrong with me.

:eyes:

[lilgayghostgirl]

18. Who cares what he thinks is immoral?

We can disagree on what we feel is "moral." I don't think teaching kids that the Bible is a literal book is moral either, but I'll support your right to do so if that's what you want to do. And by the same token, he can think my being gay is immoral all he wants. The important thing is that he feels he has no rights to impose his morality on me.

I actually applaud this guy and to be honest, some of you who want to force these people to love the fact that you're gay just need to get over it. It's not going to happen. For goodness sake bigotry toward people of color is still alive and well in this country. Do you think everyone's just going to start loving gays overnight because we say so?

[tangent90]

3. Well, if he means what he wrote (and it does seem pretty honest) I'd have to believe

he would've voted against Prop8. But I guess we'll never know either way.

[Fearless]

5. A welcome change and a benchmark of how far we've come...

And how far we've yet to go.

[msongs]

6. he thinks it's ok to fire glbts & refuse to rent to glbt's and people on DU think that's GOOD?

fire people and refuse to rent to them because they are glbt? nice to see he took off his sheet before the picture if that's him. As a christian he thinks gays are scum who are going to hell. Nice, thanks for sharing.

so does Mr. Right winger believe it is ok to refuse to rent to him because he is a christianist? Does he believe it's ok to fire him because he is a christianist?

Msongs

[cboy4]

7. Good questions!

:thumbsup:

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. He is being MORE progressive on rights than even President Obama

Mr. Moats has stated that there is no excuse for same-sex couples to be denied all of the rights, protections and priviledges that come with legal marriage. President Obama has stated, many times and on the record, that he opposes equal marriage.

If we are supposed to wet ourselves with joy over Obama's non-committal to equality, why should we distain a conservatives more ringing endorsement of equality?

[Toasterlad]

14. He Said He Believes a Company Is Free to Discriminate Against ANYONE.

He goes on to say that since so many segments of society are protected from such discrimination, it is unfair not to afford the same protection to GLBT people. What he is saying is that the government shouldn't have the right to tell people who they can and cannot rent to or hire, but since they do, it should include EVERYONE. While I don't agree with his anti-anti-discrimination policy, I believe the logic he displays makes it QUITE clear that he believes a company or a landlord SHOULD be able to refuse him because he's christian.

As for the immoral comment, who gives a shit? I think that people who knowingly follow a man who believes it is better for thousands of babies to be born with AIDS rather than take the chance that he'll have less desperate poor people to exploit in the future are insanely immoral. Does that mean I'd vote to take rights away from Catholics? No, I certainly would not. Because I can SEPARATE MY PERSONAL BELIEFS FROM WHAT IS ACTUALLY FAIR. As can the man who wrote the editorial.

I say, may his god bless him. I wish all conservatives were like him. I wish my PRESIDENT was like him. He's got a more progressive attitude than lots of people here at DU. I'd love to buy him a beer.

[Ian David]

22. I wouldn't buy him a beer, because I know he only drinks Coors. n/t

[Deep13]

8. My marriage does not involve any gods.

And saying homosexuality is sinful is factually wrong. As he concededs, there is no reasonable basis for that conclusion. He relies on a bronze-age holy book that encourages genocide, misogyny and slavery as the basis of morality.

And in this county it is not okay to discriminate on the basis of race, religion or gender. So that claim is a nonstarter.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

10. being a polite homophobe is only a tiny bit better than being a rude one

[Jamastiene]

20. Believe it or not, it's the polite ones you have to worry about.

They are the ones who will try to "befriend" you all the while preparing to cart you off to underground ex-gay rapings and beatings behind your back. Been there, done that, don't ever want to end up in that kind of situation again.

I'd rather someone just go ahead and hate me to my face publicly. At least then, everyone knows my whereabouts and my friends know to watch out for my safety. Those "polite" homophobes are the MOST DANGEROUS kinds. I kid you not.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

26. I completely agree

The people who have her me the most are the "polite" homophobes- the ones who say they like me, but don't approve of my "lifestyle", the ones who assume I hate men, because why else would I be lesbian. I could go on and on.

[SacredCow]

12. Goldwater conservative is certainly accurate....

as noted in a previous reply.

Really and truly, it IS his (and other's) right to believe that I am immoral. Where that right ends is when the others try to use that belief to encourage a government (that is supposed to serve all citizens equally) to discriminate against me.

[bluedawg12]

17. I wonder if this is the best we can ever hope to get from conservatives?

He sounds libertarian and his two main arguments are treat everyone fairly and what's the difference what others do if it harms no one else.

That has been mainstay argument in gay rights:fairness and fighting the fear mongering about gays.

Like I said, I wonder if this is the most we can expect from conservatives?


edit: lose "I" add "O" = wonder. winder? not so much.

[Jamastiene]

21. Sadly, it probably is.

I even doubt we'll ever get this much from our own party. It's still not good when he thinks it's ok to discriminate against us in jobs and housing and calls us "immoral" though. I will give him half a point for at least pulling for us to be included, but that type of "cease fire" is still dangerous as hell. I don't trust it.

[bluedawg12]

27. I wouldn't trust him either and he is misinformed about civil rights

what he supports is less government, pure and simple.

When it comes to things like laws and government to enforce civil rights, or level the playing field for housing or employment opportunities he has a total blind spot.

The last bit of this thinking is the moral superiority that stems from carefully reinforced Sunday propaganda.

That's why I said this is the best we could probably hope for from people like him, to agree about less government restrictions against minority groups, maybe some support on some aspects of equality but the moral superiority quagmire will take a long time to clean up and change.

Of course tallk is cheap, I wonder if he would actually vote for marriage equality if it came to his State?

[Jamastiene]

19. That dude is not a conservative. He's a self contained dichotomy

wrapped in an enigma with a side of :wtf:

He sounds like a confused Libertarian to me. I really am sick of hearing how "immoral" I am. I'm gay right now. :wtf: am I doing right now at this very moment that makes me immoral? I'm not thinking about or looking at pictures of other women. I'm not doing that other thing that most everyone thinks I must do from the minute I wake up until the minute I go to sleep (and sometimes in my sleep too). I'm just typing this reply. :wtf: do people need to call us "immoral" all the fucking time.

It's not simply annoying to me. It REALLY gets on my nerves. Something about casting stones is in the Bible, that book they harangue, harass, and beat us over the head with all the time. They should really quit using the Bible as a weapon and open the thing up and read it sometime in their lifetimes, but they don't...ever. :mad:

[bullwinkle428]

23. "Marriage should be between a man, a woman, & God"???

Does this imply that heterosexual atheists don't have the right to marry?

Yeah...nothing fucked-up about THAT!!

[Toasterlad]

24. I'm Totally Nonplussed By the Hostility Against This Guy.

If it were rooted in the humiliation and anger that ALL GLBT people feel at having our rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness continually judged - and generally NOT in our favor - by an all too often smug, small-minded and hypocritical majority, then I would get it. But I don't believe that this is the case, here. I believe it comes down to just this: he doesn't like us, and that pisses you off.

First off, he's NOT judging us, immoral comment or no. The whole point of his article is that it's UNFAIR to judge us; to treat us any differently just because of our sexual orientation. His "judgement" is moral and personal. It doesn't have any more meaning to you than you assign to it. It shouldn't effect your life one iota, which, again, is the POINT.

The amusing thing is that all of you who are angry at this guy are exhibiting exactly the same behavior you don't like in him. You're passing judgement on his value as a person. The fact that "he started it" is, I shouldn't have to tell you, hardly a credible defense for such childish behavior. He may very well be a bigoted, small-minded asshat. But cherry-picking his article for the negatives while ignoring the point of his statement is more asshatty than anything he said.

He doesn't like us. Well, that's a shame. A LOT of people don't like us, and a lot of THEM would be perfectly happy to watch and/or help people heave stones at us until we're dead. Seems petty to heap such venom on a guy who believes we're entitled to the same rights he is.

[Veruca Salt]

25. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't he be considered a libertarian? nt