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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 06:50 PM
Original message
Where is student accountability?
In the "rush to judgment" that is being done in the name of cleaning out bad teachers...where is student accountability? In the last 10 years, I have seen more gifted young educators run out of the classroom and the district by unruly students and administrators who do not support teachers than I had seen in the previous 25 years.

As they leave, the principals say "They can't teach..that's why they left". How come every one of these gifted young teachers prosper and succeed in Independence, Belton, Blue Valley, Shawnee, North Kansas City and other districts?

Even the best teachers cannot teach students who simply refuse to learn and respect the classroom.


http://covingtonfiles.blogspot.com/2009/11/where-is-stu...
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C_Lawyer09 Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. To much respect for parent wishes
Way to little respect for teachers managing their own classroom and methods of teaching
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. They do always get their way, don't they?
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. You'll get teachers to stay when they aren't lectured by their principals for
having a report made about a child coming to school without socks and for sending another child to the nurse for hurting herself. (Yes, it happened to me. Got chewed out for two reports in one day from the same classroom would jeopardize federal funding the school received.)
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. I can't imagine what federal funding that could possibly jeopardize.
That may be the line they fed you, but there's no basis for it.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. That's been my theme of the day.
I am totally frustrated by the lack of student interest and attention. I just finished progress report grades for one of my classes:

A - 3
B - 8
C - 10
D - 7
F - 3

It's a Gaussian distribution. Why have 10 students not reached "average?" Hm.... excessive absences (without a medical excuse i.e. a 504), lack of math prerequisite (the parents signed a waiver even though the counselors and I strongly advised against it but the kids wanted to be with their friends and that was more important than grades at the time), lack of effort, distractions of friends, etc. None of the kids in the D-F range ever came in for help after school. A couple of them asked me for extra credit once they realized what their progress report grade would be. I told them no, I don't offer extra credit to save their skins.

I don't think I would ever fail a student who really did give it a good effort but just couldn't hack it as long as he or she was "close" meaning 55% or so. But the kids who don't give a flying damn and expect a miracle? Here's your miracle: a lesson in life. Do your work and you'll be rewarded. Copy your friends' homework, don't study, don't pay attention, and guess what? You'll be rewarded in a different way.

You're right: students need to be accountable and we teachers need to hold them accountable and not let them get away with laziness regardless of how loudly they and their parents scream. My admins will chat with me if they get a parent call but ultimately back me up.
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C_Lawyer09 Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I did terribly in school and my teachers held me accountable
I don't blame them today. I told my friends boy the other day. Don't let failure to execute make your decisions for you. It makes me mad that there are so many parents that excuse lack of respect, work ethic, etc. by saying things like "He's so smart he/she gets bored. If the teacher would just try harder..." I'm educated now, only I spent a lot of time at the school of hard knocks, and it took me many years to get a degree while in the military. One way or another payment will be due, sooner or later. Having said that, I think higher education will soon go through a metamorphasis. Because of the glut of college grads, advanced ed. is getting de-valued. Jobs that should be available to a high school grad, now are not. Enerprise rent a car is a case in point.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. that isn't a terrible distribution
by Algebra 2 was much worse than that while my AFM classes were better.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. You're right, it isn't bad.
One of my classes was a little lower, the other a little higher. My other two are mostly sped so there's no normal.
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kaylynwright Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Thank you
Thank you for not being a push-over! It's ridiculous when "average" for many classes is now an A or a B. It always made me wonder whether I earned my A or other students didn't earn theirs.
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CRK7376 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. Right on!
I was always frustrated in the classroom by the kids who could care less, most were not disrespectful. Just didn't do anything, sat in class sucking in oxygen. SOme would later seek extra credit, not given. I always worked with those who tried and still didn't get it. Tried meeting with parents, requested meetings all the time, parents seldom came to meeting or confrence. When they did, they were typically not the parents of the students I truly needed to see....Lots and lots of apathy. Very frustrated that teachers are held accountable when the classrooms are brimming with apethic students who failed the End of Course exam and my teaching abilities and standards were questioned. oh well, I must stop before this becomes a rant....
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. I couldn't agree more
We need to get the bad kids out the schools: the chronic troublemakers, truants, class clowns and bullies. Give 'em the heave ho because they are disrupting the other kids' ability to learn.
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. What the heck doesn't anyone get? The republicons want public education stopped
they have been under funding and putting restrictions on educators since the late 60's that I know of for sure. Then its texas where all school texts have to be approved nation wide so they meet fundies preconceptions on what should be taught to the nations kids. Then in congress the pukes then bring out their charts and graphs showing how much better private charter schools are so lets get rid of public schools and give people school vouchers so they can send their kids to private schools where they will be dropped for the least infraction of private school rules, send them back to the hell holes that they cut funds from so in the end poor and lower middle class kids will more then likely get frustrated so they drop out.

Remember under educated people will more then likely not vote or will vote against their best interests because they don't have the ability to understand that they haven't a clue about the issues. You wonder why wing nuts are so hateful? When they believe that they don't get stuff that no one should get stuff either and its not fair because they work so hard for what they have. Like those they hate don't feel the same way or haven't tried as hard. Remember under educated means instead of seeing who is cutting their throats time to play blame someone else for my situation thats less fortunate then I am.

Reagan really pushed that point with the welfare queen, 5th and 25th generations of welfare queens, never mind welfare as it was in the 80's didn't start until 1970, hey why let things like facts get in the way when your busy hating? Where was the problem, well back when I was in school in the 60's and early 70's, we weren't being pushed by public schools to go for higher education, we were pushed into getting enough education to get us hired into the GM factories or the building trades so when we graduated high school we could go right to work as labor.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. Most important, where is ADMINISTRATOR accountability?
It doesn't truly exist in public education. Administrators are always right, no matter how wrong they are.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. That's odd, because we've sure fired a lot of them.
Maybe we're just odd.
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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. I wish someone would have asked Arne Duncan that question this morning.
He, Newtie, and Sharpton never mentioned discipline (that I can recall).
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Sharpton barely scratched the surface
From Sunday's transcript: Sharpton has said:

It seems like no one has any expectations. The new racism, to me, is low expectations, where these kids are being told you can't be anything, you can't achieve something. They can, and we must make that happen.


I think one of the things that we don't prepare is our students for having a goal in life. You cannot arrive without a destination. And I think one of the things that we have not done is that every child believe they can achieve something and then use their educational experience toward that achievement.


Well that's as far as he dared to go.

Wait, Gingrich did mention student discipline:

We were at the BASIS school, which, which Bob Compton described as the best high school in the world. It's in Tucson, Arizona. Eighty-five percent of the teachers there had no certificate, but they were PhD's in biology, they were--it's a charter school. Teach for America attracts world-class people, and among the best people in the country going to Teach for America. All too many schools have rules against it. If you talk to teachers who are really good, they need, they need provisions for discipline. They need, they need to go back to a classroom where the children learn and where the children are expected to behave and where they can enforce discipline. And here in D.C., that's a major problem. We have a friend whose daughter is now teaching in a school here where there have been 23 lawsuits this year over discipline in a school that's fundamentally undisciplined. And so teachers are told basically, "You can't get enough control to teach." And this is why, when you go out to the KIPP school and to other systems like that--and there are 82 KIPP schools in the country--they're very structured. The Mastery schools, very structured. These kids, for the first time in their lives, are being given discipline; and therefore, they can attract great teachers because they can actually focus on the kids.
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montanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
16. For teachers "student accountability" is the Godot
of our times. If you know it's not coming, there's no point in waiting.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
17. There isn't any.
If they aren't interested in learning, it's not their fault. Their attitudes are somehow our fault.

My students don't like it when I tell them that their attitude is a choice; they can choose to find something to interest them in the learning, or not...but that their day will go faster and be more successful if they do.

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southerncrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. It's in the bin labeled "Old Skool"
Kids just gotta have fun! It's THE TEACHER'S RESPONSIBILITY to make it fun for them, so they'll learn! Don't you know that's the new mantra?

Now when they "graduate", we all know that the real world is loads of fun with no responsibility required.....yea, right. :sarcasm:

We are doing kids a big disservice by allowing them to get decent grades for little or no effort & blaming teachers for EVERY problem in education, including the fact that a lot of kids don't want to learn. They come to school because they are court-ordered or for a social life, NOT to learn.

The VERY REASON this "new" teacher is running for the door after 10 yrs. Sorry, tired of being a scapegoat for society, in a dangerous job without hazardous pay. Our garbage collectors garner more respect, & I think are paid better, even though they are not unionized. Sad.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
20. Student accountability is there
Edited on Sat Dec-05-09 09:38 AM by FBaggins
Students (and certainly parents) are ultimately responsible for their education.

If they "refuse to learn and respect the classroom" then the child fails. Fails the course... likely fails to receive and education... likely fails at life.

Ultimate accountability. They're just too short-sighted to see it.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Teachers are held accountable. That is a fact.
In my district teachers have been told they will be held accountable if students fail to come to class or walk out of class.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. And the teacher doesn't fail the student?
Edited on Sat Dec-05-09 12:35 PM by FBaggins
The student doesn't receive some form of detention or expulsion eventually?

I'm not questioning that teachers are held accountable for things that happen in their classroom. That's part of why we hire people who have gone through graduate coursework on how to hadle a class of kids... I got the impression that you were saying that the unrully kids weren't also impacted by their irresponsible decisions/behavior.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I am saying that teachers are held accountable
and often for things way out of our control. Like kids skipping class. We have zero control over whether they choose to come to class or not.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You should have some control
Accountability/responsibility are the flip side of the coin of authority.

If you have the authority to assign grades and begin a discipline process that results in detention/expulsion/whatever... Then you should be expected to use them. If a kid can skip your class without consequences then you should be responsible when you fail to use that authority. If you don't have such authority then you should not be accountable.

Neither if which mean that the student has no accountability. If you have faith that what you teach has value and that you are an essential part of that transfer of learning... Then the reckoning comes whether the administration knows it or not.

Perhaps YOUR problem is that you care and wish that the accountability would come in time for the student to avoid damaging her long term prospects.

That's admirable... But perhaps not realistic.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I didn't say we didn't have consequences; we do
What I am saying is if they skip class or walk out, we are written up. It's points off our evaluation. It can also lead to suspension or termination.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Are you saying there should be no consequences?
If you're saying that the kid is punished... and there are consequences... then I still don't understand the gripe.

Is not classroom management something they cover while training for certification? If you've got 25 students in a class you're likely to have a few gems and a few duds. If you can't handle the duds then they either haven't given you the right tools/options, or it IS a performance issue.

Now... I can't see it being a termination or even suspension issue unless it truly is an incompetence issue (teacher who sits there while the kids run the classroom like in some of the teen movies).
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I refer you back to the OP:
"Even the best teachers cannot teach students who simply refuse to learn and respect the classroom."
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