The CEO Educator

[tonysam]

Joel Klein's title is New York City school chancellor, but he's really a CEO. He oversees America's largest public school system -- 1.1 million students -- with more authority than his counterparts in most other major cities, thanks to a landmark 2002 law that was just renewed for another five years.

With power comes accountability, and Klein has delivered impressively: Test scores have improved, graduation rates have risen, and the racial and ethnic achievement gap has narrowed.

Klein's progress in a chronically poor system has been so remarkable that two years ago his department won the Broad Prize for Urban Education, America's top education award. When Arne Duncan was confirmed as the new U.S. education secretary earlier this year, his first visit was to Klein.

More

Also read Susan Ohanian's comment.

Klein is the biggest crook in the country in the public school system, which is saying a lot. Public schools are being killed from within, and teachers are being scapegoated in order to help the bottom line.

No more are schools designed to create an educated, informed citizenry for a democracy; instead, schools are there to create drones for business.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. He's a crook, and yet your own post says that he's gotten results where it matters.

So really, you're going to have to explain yourself on that one. And to Ohanian's comment about there's "no question" that experience makes a teacher better, I'd like an explanation with actual figures, because I've got a citation that disproves her theory: http://www.brookings.edu/views/papers/200604hamilton_1.... - page 28, figure 4.

[tonysam]

2. He IS a crook

That article is from MONEY magazine, in case you paid any attention at all. Of course they are going to put a happy spin on Klein's reign of terror. But consider the source. NYC schools are further in the shitter because of Klein and Bloomberg.

Sure he's gotten "results," but he's NOT an educator; he is a privatizer who wants to destroy public education. He is an ATTORNEY, not an educator, and he is Mayor Bloomberg's right hand man.

Your post makes NO sense whatsoever. Ohanian is commenting on the article--she says experience does make for a better teacher, which is a FACT, and can only be after years in the classroom, but in NYC, teachers are being terminated right and left, and many teachers are being denied tenure in their third year. This is being done to save money on termination hearings as well as on retirement, as teachers cannot be vested in the public retirement system until they have five years in. Many experienced teachers who have been overaged in school closings are finding themselves put in the rubber room, and principals have tried ways to not hire these people.

These principals want the cheapo bimbo types right out of college, and then, in two or three years, toss them out. When teachers are fired, they can never, ever work in the public system again anywhere in the United States given the huge numbers of people seeking teaching jobs, so their "careers," if you can call them careers, are over almost as soon as they begin. See, I KNOW what I am talking about since I was one of those throwaway teachers, albeit in Nevada. But as long as people are naive enough to go into this field, and as long as colleges churn out graduates who are unaware of just how bad public education is in this country, thanks to the likes of Klein and his ilk and morons from think tanks who have never been public school teachers, school districts will continue to treat teachers like shit.

I will call Klein a crook all I want to because he is.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. You have no facts whatsoever.

First of all, only 8 teachers out of 89,000 have been fired for incompetence in NYC schools since Klein took over. That is hardly "left and right". Further, the rubber room is a manifestation of UFT - not Klein. Klein does not want to be wasting literally millions of dollars every year because arbitration takes forever - which again is a process completely controlled by UFT, whom even selects the arbitrators! And if a teacher doesn't deserve tenure, why should they receive it? http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08/31/090831fa_...

Secondly, who cares if he's not an educator? Results are results. If the kids are doing better, isn't that the bottom line? Or do you think the adults in the system are the bottom line?

Thirdly, once again, I have a research citation that shows experience having absolutely no impact on teacher performance. So again, I'll need some evidence for that claim.

[YvonneCa]

10. You know how Republicans answer 'They'll raise your...

...taxes' every time a Democrat discusses policy with them? That's what you are doing here...raising all the 'anti-union' talking points instead of really discussing education reform. Examples:

"First of all, only 8 teachers out of 89,000 have been fired for incompetence in NYC schools since Klein took over. That is hardly "left and right". Further, the rubber room is a manifestation of UFT - not Klein. Klein does not want to be wasting literally millions of dollars every year because arbitration takes forever - which again is a process completely controlled by UFT, whom even selects the arbitrators! And if a teacher doesn't deserve tenure, why should they receive it?"

"Secondly, who cares if he's not an educator? Results are results. If the kids are doing better, isn't that the bottom line? Or do you think the adults in the system are the bottom line?"

"Thirdly, once again, I have a research citation that shows experience having absolutely no impact on teacher performance. So again, I'll need some evidence for that claim."

The first is anti-union rhetoric against tenure. The second is the 'aren't you FOR THE KIDS?' rhetoric. And the third is to throw in RW link to bolster your credibility...as if that equals experience in the field.

Nice try! I am a PRO-STUDENT teacher. My commitment and experience are equally as important as a link to Brookings.

[tonysam]

11. Those are good examples of talking points by the privatizers

but of course teachers are being dumped all over the place in NYC--the district has found a way to get around tenure laws and regulations. All an unscrupulous principal--which NYC seems to have in abundance--has to do is create a paper trail on a tenured teacher, and it's all over for them. Even if they get reinstated, these teachers will have targets on their backs. But the point of putting these senior teachers in the rubber rooms for months or years is to force them to resign or retire and thus save the district money. But the easiest way now to get rid of teachers principals don't want is to simply deny them tenure in their third year and discontinue their contracts. No muss, no fuss, no worrying about expensive tenure hearings or paying out expensive defined benefit pensions.

Meanwhile, the principals and other administrators have IRONCLAD JOB SECURITY. It is almost impossible to fire a principal in public schools.

[Dinger]

50. Thank You tony & Others

Who fight the good fight.

[tonysam]

51. You're welcome

Even before I went through the sausage grinder that is public education, I was interested in it and the issues surrounding it. But now that I have been chewed up and spit out of the system, I believe I can better analyze the myths surrounding public education and what teachers have to go through.

The "reformers" have it all wrong--and I think on purpose.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. The New Yorker and Brookings are RW links now? Really?

The first is a statistic - it's not rhetoric. It's a fact.

The second - again, if the guy is getting results and kids are doing better, I don't care if he was the friggin janitor before he got there, and neither should anyone else that actually cares.

As for the third - again, if you disagree with the evidence, cite some yourself. And no, no anecdote is ever as good as evidenced-based research. I don't care who it comes from.

[YvonneCa]

16. Wow. It seems you completely misunderstood...or ignored...

...my point. The arguments you make are CANNED arguments. Republicans do that a lot. THAT was my point.

As to yours:

"The New Yorker and Brookings are RW links now? Really?"

I referred to Brookings only. Sorry if you misunderstood.

"The first is a statistic - it's not rhetoric. It's a fact."

I am not disputing your statistic. But its application is limited to NYC.

"The second - again, if the guy is getting results and kids are doing better, I don't care if he was the friggin janitor before he got there, and neither should anyone else that actually cares."

Straw man argument. Your words: "If the kids are doing better, isn't that the bottom line? Or do you think the adults in the system are the bottom line?" Don't set me up to defend that the adults are more important than the kids...I never said that or WOULD say that.


"As for the third - again, if you disagree with the evidence, cite some yourself. And no, no anecdote is ever as good as evidenced-based research. I don't care who it comes from."

I agree in the importance of citing evidence based research, and in the limitations of anecdotes. I didn't come here today to write a research paper...only to say that the anecdotes...such as the ones HERE: http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/09/town-hall-with... / ...have merit and should be weighed when making important decisions such as the future of public schools. Many of the people posting at ED.gov have also cited evidence and posted links to such evidence...and many have experience and credentials that FAR surpass mine.

[tonysam]

17. Brookings and the New Yorker lie about education

Don't even get me started on Stephen Brill's bullshit article. He doesn't know one damned thing about tenure or public schools. Not one thing.

You don't have to be on the political right to lie about public schools and teachers. A lot of people on the so-called "left" and in the middle also lie.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

18. You're apparently one of them. (nt)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

19. Brookings is a RW think tank?

The same Brookings Institute that's credited with starting the UN and the Marshall Plan? The same Brookings Institute that's been called liberal by the New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, and Time Magazine? If ANYTHING, they're centrist.

As for the "limited to NYC" piece of your statements - the thread is about NYC schools. You want to talk about canned arguments - your post is full of them - namely, "it doesn't apply everywhere," "it's a RW talking point," and "teachers don't agree." I'm sorry, but education reform is neither a liberal, nor conservative issue. Just because the unions are on one side, that doesn't make it the liberal side.

[YvonneCa]

21. Now we're getting somewhere!

Brookings probably is centrist most of the time...but not on Iraq and not on education. JMHO.

[YvonneCa]

23. "...the thread is about NYC schools"...

...is untrue. The ARTICLE is about NYC...but the OP (and others here) are concerned about NYC imposing its solutions on all public schools nation-wide (under Duncan and Obama's policies). The thread is about THAT.

[tonysam]

24. What Joel Klein and Mayor Bloomberg are doing in NYC

has a giant impact all over the country. Michelle Rhee of D.C., also not a true educator but a Teach for America graduate who also ran what amounted to a temporary service for teachers, is also stridently anti-teacher. So is Heath Morrison (with only four years of teaching experience) out here at Washoe County School District in Nevada, the district whose administrators illegally shitcanned me, and is now making noises about how the state and school district evaluate teachers. These people and dozens and dozens more, if not hundreds more, are infesting school districts with their anti-teacher, pro-privatization (Eli Broad) mantra.

These people are poison to public education, and that's why I say the entire system is being destroyed from within.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

26. Both Rhee and Klein have improved scores in their communities.

Again, show me where they went wrong and why they're crooks. You've yet to do so. Sounds more to me like you got fired by someone and you've got a personal vendetta, nothing more.

[YvonneCa]

27. I can understand how what I and others here...

...are saying may sound like that. That's what I would have thought until it happened to me.

As to Rhee...I only know what I have read and seen on PBS. The common thread seems to make HUGE false assumptions about teachers...paint them all with a broad brush...and then sweep them aside. Rhee and the mayor are given license to do so by policies enacted with (mostly) good intent...to improve education for all the children. (The mostly part is because there are also $$$ saving decisions related to teacher benefits.) But they fail to consider that some teachers in 'so-called' failing schools are excellent, dedicated teachers. THAT's where the policy is wrong, IMO.

[tonysam]

35. These liars like Rhee go after the idea of "tenure" and peddle

the false notion it is impossible to get rid of teachers. Well, that is bullshit, and take it from a person who has been through a "due process" hearing, one that cost my school district up to $100 grand to dispose of me--illegally.

This is what you get in "due process" hearings: you are denied witnesses by your union's attorney who is supposed to represent YOU; one of your potential witnesses is bribed--yes, bribed--with a job working for the very person in human resources who spearheads your dismissal AFTER this crook found out you didn't fake your illness and that your principal violated Nevada statute 391 regarding progressive discipline of teachers; documents are altered--i.e., forgery, which is a crime--in order to protect the negligent principal--and submitted as an exhibit to defraud the hearing officer; the district's attorney suborned perjury on the part of the principal and the witnesses. All of these acts if done in a regular trial would be subject to criminal prosecution, but not school districts. They get away with murder knowing that if somebody likes me sues them for wrongful termination, they can drag it out for up to ten years trying to starve me into a pittance of a settlement.

You pay union dues of up to $600 a year in order for them to help out administrators. That is NOT due process; it is a scam.

I REFUSE to debate somebody whose head is in the sand about what education is really all about and what really needs to be done.

[tonysam]

58. Speaking of D.C. schools,

teachers there are undergoing a "new" and "improved" evaluation process, one that will surely be followed all over the country by unscrupulous superintendents:

link

Not to mention wholesale age discrimination, as noted in the post below the video.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

40. As you can see from the other response you got...

...really, can you blame anyone for not thinking this? I mean, do you really expect me to believe that they forged documents and bribed people just to have one teacher fired, especially if said teacher actually was doing his/her job properly and was merely not liked for political reasons? Sounds like a whole lot of conspiracy and not much else to me.

As for Rhee, being in DC myself and having actually dealt with the public schools there, the excellent dedicated teachers you refer to absolutely were put back into the classroom. They did not merely shut down the school and blacklist every adult in the building. In all practicality, that'd be impossible for them to do even if they wanted to - lets face it, people aren't beating down the door to be teachers these days and SOMEONE has to teach. I think you might've gotten a bit too much of the rhetoric from AFT, which has been caught lying in this manner by their own members on multiple occasions. (refer to the New Yorker article for one such situation)

[AdHocSolver]

37. Test scores are NOT accurate indicators of whether learning took place.

The testing mandated by NCLB is a total fraud.

[tonysam]

47. Worse still, the kids don't take the tests seriously

They will rush through the tests just to get them over with; a few, like one of my former students, will freak out completely and even tear pages out of a test booklet and try to throw them away in the bathroom.

They aren't measures of anything. If the kids don't take the tests seriously, why should anybody else?

[AdHocSolver]

36. So much ignorance that it is difficult to know where to begin.

If by "results are results", and "kids are doing better" you mean higher test scores like those achieved with No Child Left Behind (NCLB), then it is guaranteed that the students are actually NOT getting an education, and NOT learning any more.

Teaching to a test is fraudulent teaching. Most of the students will learn only enough to pass the test, and then forget everything they studied by the next test. I taught school for two years, and I observed this phenomenon again and again.

Your comment that "experience (has) absolutely no impact on teacher performance" is the most stupid comment I have ever heard about teaching or any job or profession. Airlines don't hire low-time pilots to fly their planes. Medical school graduates serve residencies to gain hands-on experience. I have never had one job where experience didn't improve performance.

The only job where I have observed experience not improve performance was management jobs. I had many jobs where the bosses had many years on the job, and they were just as incompetent when I worked for them as the day they were hired.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

41. So when you taught, you never gave your students a test?

How did you assess them objectively?

As for the other point - I have data to prove it. Where's yours?

[Dinger]

54. You Sure Take An Antagonistic Stance Nicholas

You have a bad day?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

60. I didn't start a post calling people crooks and liars.

Nor did I say that someone else was spouting "RW talking points," which is a joke in and of itself. Beyond that, not one iota of evidence has been cited to support any claim contradictory to mine. I rather think I've been antagonized and not antagonistic.

[tonysam]

46. Thanks for that great rebuttal

The poster might work for one of those "think tanks," or, if not, is spewing the garbage from them.

[Smarmie Doofus]

59. What is the basis for your claim that "the kids are doing better"?

>>>If the kids are doing better, isn't that the bottom line? >>>>

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

63. It's usually a good idea to read the OP before posting

quote from OP: With power comes accountability, and Klein has delivered impressively: Test scores have improved, graduation rates have risen, and the racial and ethnic achievement gap has narrowed.

[Smarmie Doofus]

65. So it's on the basis of this?

>>>>Test scores have improved, graduation rates have risen, and the racial and ethnic achievement gap has narrowed.>>>>

These are *claims*.

They are, to put it mildly, in dispute.

No one in the NYC system, NO ONE .... that I know of anyway; (24 yrs. in the system)...... takes the test scores and the graduation rates seriously. Most professionals laugh at them.

Schools are told to produce higher test scores.... or else. So guess what? They produce higher test scores.

It does not follow from this that "the kids are better off". In fact, you most likely have it exactly backward.

I don't know about the "racial and ethnic achievement gap"; my guess is if Bloomberg wants that narrowed, particularly in an election year, narrowed it will be.

On paper, anyway. And apparently that's enough to satisfy some people.

[tonysam]

3. I don't care about your "figures"

I worked in the public schools, so I know FUCKING good and well what goes on. I couldn't care less what a think tank says.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it while our kids are failing miserably. (nt)

[AdHocSolver]

38. I will explain to you why our kids are failing miserably.

Colleges of education are run by ideologues and snake oil sellers who had many years to hone their ignorance about education and learning.

Curriculums are vapid and superficial and rehash the same worthless tripe throughout every grade level. Many school texts are poorly written by people with "education" degrees who have a poor grasp of the subject matter, let alone having a poor grasp of how to teach it.

Schools were designed to be "efficient" assembly lines, rather than places where learning could take place.

Class sizes in many schools, especially in urban areas, are too large for effective teaching, and the teacher has no chance to give assistance to students who may need extra help.

In urban schools where there are many low income families, many kids don't have an optimal diet which affects their ability to concentrate and learn. In other words, they come to school hungry, and are effectively malnourished.

Education is so politicized in this country that it is a wonder that the schools function at all. Religious fundamentalists attack teachers over science education. Old goats whose kids have graduated oppose any attempt to update the schools since their kids won't benefit, and they don't want their taxes raised even a little bit. Grandstanders like Arne Duncan, who don't know what they are talking about, push agendas that will cripple education even further.

My Sociology of Education professor described the system most succinctly: "The principal is the general, the teachers are the privates, and the children are the enemy."

Poor teachers are the least of the problems with the school systems. Teachers are the victims of the system just like their students.

In order to improve the schools in this country, we have to restructure the system based on the critique I have just presented. Making teachers the scapegoats will solve nothing.

[YvonneCa]

39. Thank you.n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

42. You're right in that colleges of ed are a total joke.

My wife just got her Masters in education - it was utterly laughable what they had her doing. None of it was practical at all.

As for class sizes, once again, they have no bearing on student achievement. We've been decreasing class sizes significantly nationwide since the 70's and student achievement has not improved (it's actually declined.) Nationally, we're at about 15:1 ratio (down from about 18:1 in the 70's). But beyond that, it's an unsustainable model for few results - removing just one child from every classroom in the country costs several billion dollars per year, and yet taking just one kid out of each classroom would have a negligible impact. (Source: NCES)

As for politicization - Outside of the ridiculous potshot at Arne Duncan, I'd agree. We don't insulate teachers from that nearly enough, and that's because we have spineless superintendents. Of course, once we get a super that wants to actually do something, we trash them. So it's a lose-lose.

But finally, you cannot simultaneously argue that teachers are the most important component in education (which is a well researched subject) and then not say that teacher quality is not a serious problem. It's utterly illogical to conclude that. That's not scapegoating - that's reality.

[tonysam]

6. And note he's won the "Broad prize."

Eli Broad is anti-public education through and through. Don't hand me any crap that a privatizer can "run" a school district like a business. They can't.

Teaching has been deskilled to the point where teachers are nothing more than test prep people and proctors. Who in their right mind would go into this field?

[PVnRT]

45. The Brookings Institute, eh?

I'm sure that's a completely non-biased report that is not pursuing any agenda whatsoever.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

48. Brookings is widely considered to be the best.

Just because they've produced some work that you don't agree with, that doesn't mean they are biased. They've pissed off people from both sides of the aisle - which is the mark of someone not pushing a particular agenda. Nice try though. Not to mention, the citation was just a statistical analysis pulled from publicly available data.

[tonysam]

7. Here is an excerpt of one of many, many horror stories

in the Naked City's school district. Presumably this is NYC because the writer mentions the infamous "rubber room," which Klein and his minions have increased the "inmates" by leaps and bounds:


When I started working for a large city school district in 2003 I already had permanent State certification, one Masters degree in my content subject and credits toward an additional Masters degree in Special Ed. The permanent certification is important because there have been scores of teachers who have completed all their schooling only to have their entire license taken away by one of these principals. These teachers who have done nothing wrong except that they are needed for their principal’s body counts can’t get licenses in other states because the application asks if they have ever been terminated. Many fully certified teachers marginally employed as substitutes and teachers assistants in suburban district say that teachers should NEVER work in the city; it has a wide reputation for having dangerous schools but loosing all your schooling, life savings and being made destitute on completely unjust grounds by an aggressive principal climbing their way to the top over the bodies is a scarier prospect.

People assume these teachers have been terminated for inappropriate conduct with a child or at least gross incompetence. The state licensures will never know or care that these terminated teachers are innocent victims who have wrongfully had their years and savings for schooling and their very livelihoods stolen. This is especially tragic when it is done to an older person who went into teaching as a second career; those second career teachers having so much more to offer students than those who have never been out of the field of education. There is an emphasis on youth because they want teachers who are wide eyed and naïve and also because these teachers generally have to be paid less. The rubber rooms are caulked full of over 40 twofers who made the mistake of knowing too much, seeing what administration was doing, being perceived as knowing or at least being able to figure out what their administration was doing, or the ultimate crime of connecting positively with their students and being a good teacher. Administrators set up a false system in which really bad students never get in trouble, and good students get in trouble. Like attracts like and immoral, spineless and dishonest students are cultivated by administrators who share their qualities. These students are rewarded for lying about teachers by having their grades inflated or by not getting in trouble for something the students did.


more


There are many, many more horror stories around the nation from teachers, including mine, so I know how crooked public school districts are. Klein and Bloomberg are leading the way in the destruction of a once-great system.

[YvonneCa]

8. Duncan (and Obama) are following someone who has totally missed the point. He ..

...said: "When I was at Bertelsmann, we were constantly focused on how to incentivize the workforce, inject increasing accountability, deciding where to substitute technology for human capital. "

The workforce in schools is the STUDENTS...not the teachers. THAT's the bottom line and it's why we keep failing at trying to fix schools. Teachers are a part of middle management, as APs and principals are. We have to be on the same team to manage our students' academic growth. EVERYTHING these NYC reformers are doing misses that point and it's CRITICAL to fixing schools.

I agree with the need to fix our schools to compete globally. I understand that requires big changes....go for it.

I do not...and never... have opposed the goal. AND I want Obama to be the President that 'gets it done right.' But these guys are WRONG. They are focussing on the wrong thing, and we in education know it. THAT's why teachers keep speaking out...not because we oppose the goals.

[tonysam]

9. Schools. Are. Not. Businesses. They cannot be run on business models.

That is what Bloomberg, Klein, Rhee, Morrison, and all of their ilk are trying to do to our once-great public school system, run them and ruin them like businesses. Teachers are being scapegoated, while the people who are really wrecking schools, the administrators, get off scot free.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. Pre-Klein, NYC schools were some of the worst in the nation.

Now they are not. That's a fact you have yet to face in your rhetoric.

[YvonneCa]

14. NYC is not the world. There's a fact you have yet to...

...face, as well.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. The article and the OP is predicated on NYC.

That's a fact you've overlooked.

[YvonneCa]

20. We should meet for coffee...

...and resolve this. The point of frustration for some of us is that we are or have worked in public school systems with problems equal to or worse than NYC. The generalization of NYC's solutions to ALL challenged schools negates that...while there are some shared failings...each school/community is unique and that uniqueness will have an effect on the success of any program to 'fix' the schools.

My teaching community is/was the 13th poorest community in the COUNTRY, with a 89% ELL population and high transiency rates due to proximity to a military base, with all the difficulties that go with poverty, second-language learners, etc., etc., etc. Why would ANYONE think NYC's solutions would ALL be just what we need?

[tonysam]

22. NYC's "solutions" are or are about to go national. The core problem in public schools

isn't about funding or population/demographics; it's about who RUNS the schools. As long as there is a grossly unequal relationship between teacher and principal/administrators, and that the latter are not held accountable for ANYTHING and have the entire legal system in their pocket as well as the union heads, nothing--repeat nothing--will improve. It will get worse, because what is being proposed by Broad, Gates, Duncan, etc., is to give these crooks who run our schools--and they are crooks, almost to a man or woman (the good ones are virtually entirely gone from the system)--even more power to abuse teachers. Students are being denied the right to a stable educational environment.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

25. Honestly, what you refer to is the problem with all of politics, really.

The notion that if something works in one place at one point in time, that it's the solution to everyone's problems. I wouldn't agree that the Klein method would work everywhere, but it works in similar situations, like here in Washington DC, and perhaps it would work in LA. But we're talking major metropolitan areas, not where the rest of the country lives. That's not a problem unique to education. Charters, for instance, is something that I am supporter of, but I realize that charter schools only serve about 13% of the population and will never be the answer for everyone. But in urban areas where parents lack the means to send their kids to anything but the public school, it gives them an option for a different learning environment or to take the kid out of a toxic environment. Rural areas, in particular, are places that often have nearly the same problems as urban ones (poverty, ELL students, lack of parental involvement/cultural issues), and yet they often don't yield the same solutions.

At the same time, however, people also tend to go to the other end of the spectrum - that their own personal situation is SOOOO unique that none of the rules that apply anywhere else should apply to them. That's equally nonsensical. I find that to be the case when we discuss things like having national standards - you cannot convince me that language arts or math are different anywhere in the world, much less from one town to the next. There is no reason why we should expect higher or lower standards depending on your zip code. Similarly, you can't convince me that 96% of all teachers are perfectly competent in their jobs, and yet that's the annual rate at which we keep teachers, according to NCES. There's no occupation in the world in which 96% of the people who do it are competent - I don't know why we should even contemplate the idea that teaching is any different.

I do agree that we could resolve a lot of this over coffee - if you're ever in the DC area, PM me and we'll see if that can't happen.

[YvonneCa]

28. What a nice post. Actually, California is...

...quite far from DC, or I'd take you up on your offer.


I agree with most of what you are saying, especially the part about the political difficulty of applying solutions to diverse parts of the country. I also think the solutions become more complicated by the assumption that teachers are the biggest problem. They are NOT. Let's say only 75% are competent in their jobs...some of those work in schools in DC or Chicago or LA that will be closed down. Painting those teachers with a broad brush that says 'incompetent' isn't fair. Please understand that I'm not saying the schools shouldn't close for the sake of the kids...just protect good teachers.


I also disagree with this (partial)statement:

"...language arts or math are different anywhere in the world, much less from one town to the next. There is no reason why we should expect higher or lower standards depending on your zip code."

Here's a teacher anecdote: (I know, I know )

As a teacher of ELL students, I am given Language Arts standards. I am also given diverse students...some who may be English Language Learners. For the grade level I teach, I work to meet or exceed the grade level standards...no problem. In recent (NCLB) times, I have only been allowed to teach to the standard for my grade level. I have been prevented (and admonished) for teaching to student needs. If I have a student who is reading at third grade level (and writing even lower) in a sixth grade classroom...that child needs me...as the teacher...to teach the third, fourth, fifth AND sixth grade standard to reach my grade level goal. THAT's a lot to do, even if a good teacher does so. That student may or not meet grade level standards by the end of the year, but they could grow by two years and still be low.

Bottom line, some zip codes have more students with this need. I don't want to lower the standard. I just want to recognize progress toward the goal.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

29. My answer to your anecdote:

Those kids should've never reached your grade level in the first place. it does no one any good to promote kids that can't do the work, because once they get out of school, they'll find themselves so far behind where they need to be that things go horribly, horribly wrong. The standards are where they are for a reason. So, in essence, your school was right to have you teach to the standards, but it was woefully wrong in allowing those kids to reach your classroom before they were ready. That child doesn't need you - they need the teacher three grade levels lower than you.

Good teachers should absolutely be protected, and I think it's entirely unfair that people like Klein and Rhee are painted as hating teachers or depicting teachers as "the problem" when really, they're just trying to get rid of MAYBE the bottom 5-10% of the teachers in their remarkably abysmal education systems. It should not be controversial that the worst 5-10% of teachers in schools that are literally third-world in quality by any objective metric should be pushed out of the system - it should be the expectation. No one deserves that.

[YvonneCa]

30. Well, we aren't going...

...to entirely agree here. I go back to my experience...

There is more to this than 'social promotion.' It's a school structure problem. The reality is that teachers don't promote students...districts and states do. If I, as a teacher, have 33 students...it's likely that half (or more) are 2-3 years below grade level. For a district like mine to take 'below grade-level sixth graders' for example and put them in a lower grade class to be taught appropriate standards requires a huge shuffle. The K, 1, 2, 3 classes would be overflowing and the 4-6 grades would be sparse. Not to mention that having 6th graders and 2nd graders in the same class presents it's own set of issues. And, what about the preschool kids not ready for kindergarten? Apply this statewide in a state like California and imagine the repercussions.

My solution for that is ungraded classes in elementary school...but that flies in the face of tradition.


On the other topic...Michelle Rhee. You said:

"It should not be controversial that the worst 5-10% of teachers in schools that are literally third-world in quality by any objective metric should be pushed out of the system - it should be the expectation. No one deserves that."

My only argument with this situation is that I don't think we HAVE a metric yet for measuring teachers. People like Rhee are put into a position where the pressure is to perform magic on a school district. They use whatever metric they can find. I don't see that a fair metric has yet been found. I DO know my district experimented with a few...with disastrous results. And I don't think my district was alone in that. Until a fair metric can be found, I think it should be VERY controversial.JMHO.

[tonysam]

33. Yvonne, why are you wasting your time "debating" somebody

who is promoting anti-public education lies? Michelle Rhee is an incompetent who has NO business running a PTA organization, let alone a major urban school district. She is not even a qualified TEACHER, for God's sake,let alone an administrator.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

43. Time to tighten that tinfoil, isn't it?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

49. Honestly, I don't care who's doing it or for what reason.

If a kid can't do the work, they shouldn't be advancing. It does no one - not the teacher, not the school, not the kid - any good. I don't see how ungraded classes make things better - it just makes it that much more difficult to figure out if the kid has a problem or not.

As for the metrics - I'll agree that we don't have data systems in place as of yet for most of the country that are capable, but they do exist. You can fairly tie teacher performance to student test scores, it's just that most states haven't invested in the systems yet. The Obama administration is putting a lot of money into fixing that problem. I don't find that to be an acceptable reason, however, not to do something to identify and remove substandard teachers. It's a delaying tactic that's commonly used by Republicans - we don't have the right information, so let's do a study and do nothing in the meantime. Well, in the meantime, a lot of kids and a lot of people are going to suffer.

[YvonneCa]

55. Define 'substandard ...

...teacher' please.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

62. A teacher that consistently fails to improve the achievement of his/her students. (nt)

On edit: Also, teachers that are verbally, sexually, or physically abusive and teachers that use illicit substances while on the job.

[YvonneCa]

64. Define 'improved achievement'...

...of students...again, please.


BTW, I agree wholeheartedly about your edit.

[tonysam]

31. Why should anybody sit around and debate somebody

who pushes lies that were fostered by the fraudulent Nation at Risk "study"?

I refuse to bother with people like this because as a former teacher in this filthy system we call public education, I KNOW what the problems are, and they have absolutely nothing to do with teacher "quality" or "standards."

Those are bullshit ideas covering up the real problem, and that's with administrators.

[YvonneCa]

32. Debate is part of democracy. It's how...

...we learn.

[tonysam]

34. People like that aren't interested in debate. This person is peddling

garbage talking points that I have listened to for nearly thirty years trashing public ed.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

44. When our international benchmarks have us closer to Azerbaijian than to Korea...

our public education system is doing a good enough job trashing itself, thankyouverymuch.

[YvonneCa]

56. I support Obama's goals...

...for our country and agree with his emphasis on education as a way to get there.

I am glad he values our children and is seeking to improve their education and their future. I thought he did a great job of challenging parents to become involved in their children's education and to support teachers' high standards with high standards of their own. His story about his daughter was EXCELLENT.

I do worry that he listens a bit too attentively to NYC's Joel Klein about how to fix public schools. I hope he understands that NYC (and Chicago, for that matter) is not the whole country. And I hope he understands that teachers are a big part of what is RIGHT about our schools...they are NOT what is wrong.*


*Posted in GD after Obama's Wisconsin speech.

[Dinger]

53. + 1,000

Tony,

[tonysam]

57. +1,000 back n/t

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dinger]

52. + 1

Sheesh.