Denver charters challened (for cheating)

[donco6]

The old lie is finally being outed, that is "charters accept all kids." Out of 7000 students, Denver charters have TWO high-needs kids.

http://www.denverpost.com/frontpage/ci_13641344

In the meantime, they get to claim higher performance on tests, avoid NCLB sanctions, higher costs for providing services to high-needs kids, etc.

[jinto86]

1. So what about charter schools like...

Spectrum Charter Academy in Utah, Renaissance Learning Academy in Florida, Stargate Charter school in Colorado, and the now dead ASPIE school of New York... are these charter schools evil in your eyes too despite serving at least a large percentage of special needs kids?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jinto86]

8. Tons of twice exceptional kids though

Asperger's, dyslexia, autism, and etc. are all known for being gifted. And once again Arianna Huffington is not a right wing nutjob. Tell me one time I have said something more right wing then she has.

[donco6]

11. Evidence?

There is none, as usual. More of your Fox tactics.

[jinto86]

14. Could you quit it with the ad homenims for once

or at least tell me how Arianna Huffington is a right wing nut job.

[donco6]

15. It's ad hominem, by the way.

A sincere attempt at making you look less foolish.

[jinto86]

16. I am dyslexic

Sorry I don't always spell latin words correctly. So can you quit with that or tell me how Arianna Huffington is a right wing nut job.

P.S. Yes... I know... this puts you in a hard spot... now you either have to admit you're a bully (like I have dealt with all my life thanks to public schools) or debate me on the facts, I am sorry but those are the breaks.

[donco6]

18. And it's "you're" when referring to "you are".

Just trying to help. Maybe you could shoot your posts to me first for editing. I'd be glad to help.

[jinto86]

19. I'll take that as a no, too bad,

But on the plus side, with your bullying attitudes, and your being a teacher (I assume) makes me scared for any kid under your care, especcially special needs kids. That is why I support charter schools.

[donco6]

20. You've entered a no hijack zone.

Believe it or not, not every education thread is about you.

[jinto86]

22. So you admit I am not a right wing nut job?

At least no more so then Arianna Huffington. Though moving past that, how is hijacking a thread about a lack of special needs kids in charter schools by bringing up charter schools for special needs kids. That seems totally relevant to me. I agree that many charter schools are a bad idea, too many of them bring nothing new to the table, but for those that do bring something new (Montessori charters, special needs charters, ESL charters, etc.) to the table there is something to defend. Thats what I am defending, the concept of charter schools not necessarily the implementation.

[donco6]

5. Oh, and by the way, how about not hijacking my thread for once?

This isn't about how wonderful asperger charters are. It's about how charters in Denver have enrolled TWO special needs kids out of 7000.

Let's stick with that.

[noamnety]

6. Your post is factually incorrect.

The article doesn't say they've only accepted two special needs kids, you misunderstood it.

[donco6]

7. No I didn't.

They have only 2 specialized needs kids out of 7000. Public schools must take any children who arrive, unless it's determined that a different placement is better for the CHILD. Charters may take some other IEP students, like mild speech/language, but those kids only require 2 to 3 hours of service a WEEK. Specialized need students are the kids who require one-on-one paras, or sign-language teachers, or trach tube cleanings, stomach tube feedings - all of which we provide gladly, but at great cost. Our reimbursement is about 30% of the true cost of these services, and charters get out of ALL of it.

So, no, I didn't misunderstand it.

[noamnety]

21. You misrepresented "special needs" as "severe cognitive or physical disabilities" exclusively.

Obviously charters are taking special needs students.

More precise definitions will convey the situation more accurately. I don't see a reason to try to portray this as "charters aren't taking special needs students" unless you are trying to convince people of something that isn't true.

The article doesn't give enough statistics to make any meaningful comparisons. What percentage of students in the Denver public schools have a "severe cognitive or physical disability"? We don't know. How many schools in the Denver Public School system reject students with severe cognitive or physical disabilities? We don't know that either.

What we know from the article is that some of the traditional schools exclude or strongly discourage them from attending, because the school administrators have decided it's in the students' best interest and more cost effective overall to centralize those services rather than have them at each school.

"Students with disabilities classified as being more severe than "mild" or "moderate" are usually encouraged to attend center-based programs in district schools that can provide greater support. Center-based schools are strategically placed and specialize in supporting kids with certain disabilities, with resources including speech, occupational and physical therapists."

That's how it's handled in my local area as well. Students with severe cognitive impairments (still learning to tie shoes as a teen, extremely low functioning autistic etc.) generally take classes at one specific site with staff that's got very specialized training, a routine that's very structured, and the learning goals are very different for those students than traditional students. They aren't learning about the constitution or earth science; they're learning to communicate using picture cards stuck on velcro and learning to organize and sort shapes and small items.

Overall, the goals should be to put students in the least restrictive environment possible. Schools without those kinds of specialized services simply aren't the best and least restrictive environment for every student. I don't see you expressing outrage that other public neighborhood schools are discouraging those students from attending - and the teachers in those schools probably aren't outraged about that either, with good reason.

The entire OP here seems based on the idea of being afraid that charters "got away with something" rather than seriously considering what's best for the students themselves, and what's most cost effective for the Denver Public Schools as a whole. The public schools there have determined that it's best to have centralized facilities, rather than requiring each individual school to create a program from scratch for individual students. That policy applies toward both the public charters and the public neighborhood schools within their district.

[jinto86]

23. Good point

Asperger's, severe ADHD, dyslexia, and the like would never ever be considered more then a mild to moderate disability, but it certainly is a special need. So the thread is way inaccurately titled.

[donco6]

24. It's a resource problem.

When charters continually skim off the least-needy kids, that leaves a concentrated need for the public schools. Our E.D. students, for example, cost about $40,000 per year to send to Laradon or ADT. We have 10 we have to send out, and another 30 or so we can keep in district. That's just ED in a district of 6,000. We have another 25 who are Life Skills (the "learning on flash cards" kids you refer to.) Then there are the blind and deaf students we pay tuition on to a neighboring district. In a district Denver's size, the need should be at least CLOSE to proportional. So if the charters aren't taking these students, they leave a very real burden on the regular schools.

People will say, "Well, you get reimbursed through state ECEA or federal IDEA funds for those students, right?" Yes, we do. At about 30% of the actual costs. So the other 70% has to come from our regular funding. A charter doesn't have to make those kinds of decisions, because they are free to say, "Sorry kiddo, you have to go to Montbello" or wherever the center program is. No, I don't see that as fair at all.

By their nature, independent charters have no system to accommodate these students. Because Denver schools are part of a system that pools their resources, they do have the capacity to take these kids. But they created that with that purpose in mind. Charters seem to revel in NOT creating these systems. What if there was no Denver to rescue them? Would charters even care if these kids feel through the cracks? You may believe they would; I do not.

[jinto86]

25. "Out of 7000 students, Denver charters have TWO high-needs kids." is still a lie

Or makes it an interesting definition of "high-needs kids"

[donco6]

26. No it isn't.

It's absolutely correct.

[jinto86]

27. So asperger's isn't "high needs"

Tell that to any parent of a kid with asperger's, they will probably laugh, which is always a good thing when your stressed out.

[donco6]

28. They take autistic kids in the charters?

I didn't see that in the article. They had to beat the bushes to find the one CP kid. Let's stick with the facts we know.

"Cal is one of only two children with a severe cognitive or physical disability among Denver Public Schools' 7,000 charter-school students, according to a task force of officials from charters and DPS focused on changing that dynamic for the district's autonomous schools."

http://www.denverpost.com/frontpage/ci_13641344

[jinto86]

29. Asperger's would never be classified as more then a mild or moderate disability, CP is

I did read the article btw. So its hard to know if they have an asperger's student or not, or a severe ADHD kid or not, or a dyslexic kid or not. Those are all considered mild to moderate disabilities. You consider "high-needs" just "a severe cognitive or physical disability", thats certainly not my defination of "high-needs".

[donco6]

32. Just sticking with the facts is all.

http://www.denverpost.com/frontpage/ci_13641344

[jinto86]

33. Defining the facts you mean

Where in that article does it say how many IEP/504 students go to charter schools? How many people that have disabilities that aren't "severe cognative or physical disabilities". Your saying those are the only, "high needs." Interesting.

[donco6]

35. Just sticking with the facts.

Sorry you don't like them.

http://www.denverpost.com/frontpage/ci_13641344

[jinto86]

37. I read the article

I want you to point out where it says that there is only 2 "high needs kids" in charter schools. I don't see those words anywhere. Beyond that, I would be willing to bet they had a few asperger's and severely ADHD kids... those must just not be high-needs to you.

[noamnety]

30. Your concern is about squabbling over funding

so much so that you'd apparently rather subject high needs students to an inappropriate environment in the name of "fair funding" than do what allows them to have the best possible services for their needs.

I don't see that being about a concern for their well being, or a concern about them falling through any cracks. Your argument reads like it's formed to support a tangentially related political agenda.

Here's what one Colorado parent of a child with autism says:

"Every parent of a Joshua School student who has tuition paid by a school district has a public school horror story to tell, Rist said, from arrests to the use of restraints.

"It's a dilemma for school districts," Rist said. "You can't blame them. They don't have the funding or training to do the things that the Joshua School does."

Can you convince that father that it's better for him NOT to have a central specialized place to send his son?

http://communications.dpsk12.org/newsclips/autism-colorado-school

[donco6]

31. Not at all.

I know you would like to reduce it to that to serve your own ends. But, in fact, we DO take all kids, and we serve them well. So I'm being vilified for objecting to a charter that refuses to take them? That seems a bit odd.

[jinto86]

34. Serve them well, thats a good one!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/18/siu.schools.abuse/index.html?iref=hpmostpop

[donco6]

36. They're great kids and we're glad to have them.

Sorry to disappoint.

I just wish the Denver charter schools felt the same way.

[jinto86]

38. Then why is the Senate doing investigations about them being abused in schools

Must just be a funny form of serving them well.

[donco6]

39. Not mine.

And that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the refusal of charter schools in Denver to accept high-needs kids. I think that's discrimination and a shameful practice. I really wish you did, too.

[jinto86]

40. No,

we are talking about them not having an appropriate system to serve kids with "severe physical and cognative disabilities" (stop saying high-needs kids, thats offensive to other disabled students). So how many kids with asperger's are in Denver charter schools, how about kids with severe ADHD, how about kids with high-functioning autism. You couldn't tell me if its 1 or 100 could you.

[donco6]

41. It's really sad about Denver's charters.

I wish they would accept students with severe physical and cognitive disabilities. Hopefully now that this article has shown light on their unfair practices, they'll change them.

[jinto86]

42. Agreed, though will they have the right environment for them?

And are you willing to give them more money so they can create it if they don't.

P.S. Can you take the words "high-needs" out of all your other posts, or is high functioning autism and asperger's syndrome still not "high needs" to you.

[donco6]

43. I would love to provide 100% reimbursement for all special education costs.

But I'm not in the Colorado legislature or the federal government. Rats. If that were the case, then I wouldn't care what the charters did. Let them discriminate. I'll have all the funds I need to provide even better service than we provide now.

I could use another wheelchair equipped bus at $65,000. It would give me a backup with our bus isn't working. I have to borrow one from another district when ours breaks down.

I could use more bus paras at $14,000. These guys help get the kids on and off the buses and are running ragged.

I could bring all my ED kids back from Laradon and provide services in our own schools with appropriately trained staff. We could better integrate them in school events that they miss by being in Day Treatment.

I would start a regional center for deaf and blind kids. Right now, we have to tuition them to a neighboring school district because I can't afford the signing or Braille teachers.

I would buy a house for our Life Skills kids so they could learn to live independently.

There's a lot I could do if we weren't getting ripped off by cheaters.

[jinto86]

44. So basically they would have to do just as much with less

That would be quite hard for them you must admit.

[donco6]

45. They should not be discriminating against special needs students.

We don't. It's wrong. It's unethical. And I'm not crying any tears about how hard it would be for them to start doing the right thing for the kids who come to them for education services.

[jinto86]

46. But you get enough funding for them,

and you just admitted that they probably wouldn't get enough funding for them. Though you put them in specific schools especcially for them right? So all the resources are centrally located... sounds a lot like unvoluntarily segregation to me. Since when is segregation "ethical".

[donco6]

47. I get 30% of the actual cost of providing services.

I'm sorry that this figure sounds like "enough" funding to you. I guess some people so devalue the lives of special needs students that they purposely agree to shortchange them.

And no we don't put them in "special schools". If they're emotionally disturbed, we have an IEP meeting with their parents and together we decide the best placement for the child. Usually, when they come to us, they're already in Laradon, so it's not a change of placement. For the blind or deaf, we again have a meeting with the parents and see what they want to do. We've had a few who insisted on keeping the student here, but the program in Northglenn is really good. I just think we could do better if we had the money.

Once the students are old enough, we do have a Life Skills program that we enroll them in at two of our high schools. We've outfitted the schools with kitchens and other things to help them prepare to live on their own. I would love to buy a house, and there are so many for sale right now that would be perfect. They teach the kids how to take care of themselves, how to open a bank account, pay bills, ride the bus, get and hold a job. We usually have five or six who go to college in New Mexico at a special school that extends this learning.

It's unfortunate that Denver charters don't see the worth in these students.

[jinto86]

48. No 100% of your funding comes from tax dollars, so don't lie

Would you be willing to give them that much, that $40,000 that you talked about earlier.

[donco6]

49. That doesn't even make sense.

And must everything be an accusation with you?

As much as I've enjoyed this somewhat witty repartee, I must close now to have dinner with my significant other. Cheers!

[noamnety]

50. I get what you're saying about funding.

Donco is claiming that they only receive 30% of the funding for special ed students, but of course they get 100% of the funding from taxes. It's not like they are paying 70% out of their own pockets, it's still coming from taxes.

Around here, the missing 70% would be made up from general funds (in effect, sort of stealing it from the general education students). In a large district with thousands of students, it's a minor amount of per pupil funding that has to be swiped to make up the deficit. Pulling numbers out of thin air, if your district has 7,000 students, you might have to pull 10 dollars per student to pay for an aide for a student who needs a dedicated full time assistant (and equipment).

A charter school on the other hand might only have 300 students, so it would require swiping 233 dollars per general ed student instead of 10 dollars to support a severely cognitively impaired student with everything they really required to meet their needs.

But that's not the whole story, or at least not in my state. In my state, local property taxes or millages provide extra funding for neighborhood schools that charters don't receive. The amount they raise that charters don't have at their disposal more than compensates for their special ed costs - AND the special ed costs are spread among a much wider student base. The charter schools aren't ripping anyone off, they're actually allowing the neighborhood schools to raise MORE funds per pupil than they'd otherwise be able to do. On top of that, the special needs (of any sort) are more efficiently and better accommodated when they are centralized.

A charter for severely impaired kids would be great, but the way funds are raised and parceled out don't make it feasible. If the true cost of special needs were met through earmarked funds instead of the system forcing schools into using general funds, charters would likely jump at the chance to meet those sorts of niche needs.

To characterize the situation as the charters gutting funding for special needs kids, however, is to completely ignore cause and effect, and replace it with scapegoating and political agendas. Charters didn't ruin funding for special ed. You can look to NCLB, overall education funding in general, unfunded mandates, a worsening economy that has lowered the tax base all around, there are dozens of factors that actually have impacted special ed funding, and school funding in general. Charters aren't the root cause of the problem, and people here know that (even if they don't want to admit it).

[jinto86]

9. Your thread was about how charters are not taking special needs kids

and there are charters just for special needs kids. By fighting charter schools your fighting against these types of schools too.

[donco6]

10. In Denver, they've taken TWO out of SEVEN THOUSAND.

And there are no charters for special needs students.

Keep on track. You're really close.

[jinto86]

13. So Denver is evil with charter schools

That doesn't make charter schools in general evil at all.

[Dinger]

54. Yeah, That'd Be Nice

I can see you've got a tag team here. TWO out of SEVEN THOUSAND? Wow, they must have been feeling generous.

[donco6]

55. The one kid was there because his mother forced them to take him.

I don't know how the other one got through the charter screens.

[Dinger]

2. K & R, More where that came from I'm sure. BUT

I do think there are excellent charters out there, but they are simply not held to the same standard as public schools.

[donco6]

3. Then how does anyone know, really, if they're good or not?

I mean, think about your statement. You believe there are excellent charters, but you also believe they aren't held to the same standard. So how good can they be?

I've always said I could improve my test scores overnight - just eliminate transportation and food service. Only those kids whose parents can drive them to school and prepare their lunch would show up the next morning. How well do you think they would perform on tests?

I think we'll find that, if and when charters are ever held to the same standard, they'll finally be exposed for the frauds they are.

[Dinger]

12. I Mean The Ones That CHOOSE To Take Standardized Tests, And

do not exclude students. I am definitely NOT in favor of arne duncant's race to the bottom, which guts public schools to pay for charter schools. IF, and I mean IF they (charters) are compared fairly to public schools, and still excel, well, o.k. then. There are very, very few who do this. And I'll also add that this means that my assessment of charters also depends on what they use to measure success. If tests are the sole measure of success, count me out.

[donco6]

17. True.

I just read "Whatever It Takes" by Geoff Canada, and I have to say it was depressing. Such a huge emphasis on getting the test scores up, getting the test scores up. Almost no thought given to "what is it we're really teaching?" So, no, even if it's a "successful" charter, if it's just test scores, no thanks.

[alp227]

51. charter sockcuckers...

It would be just as bad if the system were 2 "normal" students versus 6,998 high-needs ones. ALL children of various needs should have accommodations. Not just the ones with damaged brains but with those inherited from Einstein. Charter schools = a great idea tainted by mismanagement.

[jinto86]

52. "Charter schools = a great idea tainted by mismanagement." +1

There are so many great charters and private schools that could easily become charters if given the chance out there that its hard to believe that everyone hates them so...

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. TWO?!?!

Wow.

I can't think of anything to say that you haven't said already. This is deplorable.

I have a kid this year who came out of the charters. Very severely cognitively impaired and emotionally disturbed on top of that. And woefully underserved for 4 years. IMO, it borders on criminal.