Are severe coordination problems considered a learning disability?

[lightningandsnow]

Here's the thing. I know I'm intelligent, but I have a hard time with anything that has to be handwritten - for example, taking notes is very difficult for me, and handwritten in-class essays are incredibly difficult. I know I'm an excellent writer, but any essay that I have to write by hand, with a time limit, is going to be way below my potential because my hand hurts, I write slowly so I'm trying to make the time limit, I'm putting all this effort into just making it readable, and I want to get it overwith.

Here's why, apparently. Despite the fact that my IQ is quite high (My non-verbal score is average, my verbal IQ is extremely high, there's a huge gap in between the two scores), my motor coordination and visual-motor integration scores were both below the 1st percentile. (Apparently that's extremely rare for someone of my overall intelligence).

So, here's the thing. It still remains to be seen whether I have other learning issues (I'm also extraordinarily disorganized, have crap visual memory, am pretty bad at math, and somewhat socially inept, hence why I originally thought I had asperger's), is the motor issue in of itself enough to qualify for special ed services in university? (Note-taking, a computer for tests, and please don't make me draw anything. That's all I need.)

Because, if it isn't...I'm not entirely sure how I'm going to cope next year.

[zanne]

1. Have you seen a neurologist?

I write very slowly and I could never pass my driving classes (many of them) because my reflexes have always been too slow. I have a high verbal IQ myself, but if you asked me to do long division, I'd be lost. I have peripheral neuropathy. I only found out about this in my late 30's. If I had known earlier, I might have had special tutoring instead of just feeling like a failure.

[lightningandsnow]

2. I'm seeing an educational psychologist now.

Hence the trying to figure out if I have a learning disability.

A neurologist might be of use, though. I do wonder if I have something somewhat medical going on, because I crawled and walked on time when I was a baby, and as a young child (about 7), my visual/motor integration and motor skills only tested as mildly impaired.

[zanne]

4. My symptoms didn't manifest themselves until my 20's. nt

[pop goes the weasel]

3. according to the NCLD, yes

That's the National Center for Learning Disabilities, and the specific disorder is called dyspraxia. It actually covers a lot of the symptoms you mention. If you have a diagnosis of dyspraxia, you should be able to receive educational accomodations. (info at http://www.ncld.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=466)

Also, the bad math could be dyscalculia.

I have the same sort of mind, and no diagnosis. But I'm also a few decades older than you, and a bit envious that you will be able to benefit from the new understandings of learning disabilities. In knowing what you face, you will be able to organize your life appropriately so that you can succeed.

[buzzards97]

5. Maybe

Hi:

I work with students with special needs students at the K-12 level--which also includes determining
whether students qualify for being labeled as disabled. I am not as familiar with college level.
Typically students get identified for sped services when they are younger.

You may want to work with Occupational Therapist, our therapists work with students that struggle
with handwriting as well as other things.

You may also want to consider looking into a 504 plan. This is a plan that looks at making accommodations
for students in the classroom for things like you are talking about, students that have physical issues, and
many other medical issues that may impact their ability to function in the educational environment. 504 plans
are part of federal law like special education, though not quite as formal.

You may or may not have a "learning disability" that could be identified through the sped evaluation process.
There are some pretty specific things that have to be considered like a discrepancy between your ability level
compared to your performance. Having the wide split between your verbal and performance starts creating that
discrepancy. Sounds like you just need some pretty easy accommodations for a college to be able to let you
have. The motor issues you describe, seem more to me like requiring some OT help. Unfortunately, you can
not qualify for OT services alone...it is considered a related service. That was why I would look into a
504. The ed psych you are working with should be well aware of 504s too.

Good luck....hope your school is willing to work with you.

[AndyTiedye]

6. If Not Aspergers, Then Probably Somewhere on the Spectrum

Being on the autistic spectrum usually affects coordination. Large differences between the two IQ scores are also common
(though these can go in either direction). So is difficulty socializing. It's not hard-wired for us, so it takes a lot of
conscious effort and can be quite exhausting.

Much of what you describe reminds me of me (except for me it's the math side that is my strong suit).
My handwriting was horrible until I took up calligraphy, now it's pretty nice but it takes a long time to do it.
My coordination was lousy until I started going to raves and dancing for hours on end. The use of dance as
therapy for autism-related coordination issues goes all the way back to Dr. Asperger himself. It is also the
best stim there is.

You say you used to think you had Aspergers. Does the shrink say otherwise?
The criteria are somewhat arbitrary, and diagnosis is often hit-or-miss.
Even if you don't quite match the profile for Apergers, you may still be on the autistic spectrum.

According to your profile, you are in Canada, which may have different rules regarding disability from the US.

Handwriting should matter very little in this day and age. In the real world, people use computers to write stuff.

[lightningandsnow]

7. Yeah, I saw a psychiatrist (well, a team, actually),

And they said I'm not on the spectrum at all. So, I guess I'll take their word for it?

(That being said, they also said my anxiety wasn't really a big problem, and it clearly is, so I don't know how accurate everything is.)

[AndyTiedye]

17. So What Do They Think is Going On?

they said I'm not on the spectrum at all. So, I guess I'll take their word for it?

You were obviously pretty thoroughly convinced that you were, given what you use as a handle here.

What explanation did they have for your difficulties?

(That being said, they also said my anxiety wasn't really a big problem, and it clearly is, so I don't know how accurate everything is.)

Indeed. While anxiety can have many causes, it seems the height of gall on their part to declare it a non-problem.

You said your coordination tested as only slightly impaired at 7. Does it test as more severely impaired now?
What sort of things are they testing?

[Longhorn]

8. I've had college students who had physical disabilities

that allowed them modifications such as extra time on tests or taking tests in the Office of Student Disabilities or formal or informal notesharing. I have a student now who is confined to a wheelchair and has an aide who brings him to and from class, takes notes, and tells us what he is saying because he cannot articulate his words. Though he has no mental disability, I write multiple choice tests for him (this is math class) because it would take hours for him to dictate free response answers.

I'm sure you can come to an agreement with the OSD people at your campus. Our instructors can only go by the OSD letter -- we can do no more or no less than what the letter states.

Good luck! :hi:

[lightningandsnow]

9. Thank you!

I'm going to uni next year...and I'm in the middle of applying to places. So I guess I should do this sooner rather than later?

:hi:

[Longhorn]

10. I think so. You never know how long it will take to get the proper paperwork together

and get the review, meet with the staff, etc. Once all of that is in place, you should be set for your college career unless you need to make changes. Our OSD people are wonderful and really do have the students' best interests at heart. Unfortunately, not all instructors have the best attitude but our OSD people also try to steer students to instructors who they know are understanding of what it means to attend college with any kind of physical and/or learning disability.

I think this is important enough to be a major consideration in your decision about which college to attend. I'd contact each department and find out how they will help you, from application to registering for classes to determining any modifications. As you narrow down your choices, visit the OSD office (the name may vary at each college) and see how friendly and helpful they are in person. We have seven campuses and this can vary from one campus to another even though they are all following the same rules!

You have obstacles to your learning that can be mitigated and that's all you're asking for! :hug:

[pnwmom]

11. Are you left handed by any chance? And which IQ test did they administer?

And are you bad at math in general, or are you better at concepts than at arithmetic?

Also, what did this group of people conclude about your educational needs? That huge gap between your performance score and your verbal score is practically the definition of learning disabled. You are probably gifted AND LD -- which could account for a lot of your anxiety as well. Who wouldn't be anxious in your situation?

[lightningandsnow]

12. I was referred to an educational psychologist

to test for LD's. And, while I'm not left-handed, I was identified as gifted from a very young age.

I currently just finished the actual testing with the psychologist, but she needs a month or so to look over all the information and make a final diagnosis.

She did say it seemed like I likely have some kind of LD though.

Edit: Oddly enough, I'm decent at straight math (like, just arithmetic), but have this kind of inabillity to apply concepts. Like, I have trouble with word problems, and the opposite, where you have to describe math concepts verbally. (This is also odd because I'm a very verbal person, obviously.)

Edit again: I don't know my exact scores on this most recent one, but I took the WISC-III when I was about 8 and there was a 49 point or so discrepancy in that one.

[MichiganVote]

13. I too, assess k-12 for Learning Disabilities and ASD certification

First, let me assure you that you can and will succeed in College. Factually, seldom do Prof's rely on handwritten material from students and generally they don't want it. You're not the only one with poor handwriting. In fact, handwriting as a part of the curriculum is largely disregarded nowadays past 2nd grade.

The Math problem you describe suggests that you are low in the area of Math Reasoning, not Math calculation. So probably stick with basic Math courses in college and if you are determined to choose a major that requires higher Math skills be prepared to spend a lot of time in the tutoring lab. It can be done but its painful. :) I know, I have the same problem.

Now for the tricky part. To qualify for k-12 special certification in ANY of the areas of certification more is involved than a point difference between your measured IQ and the scores that register on your academic testing. For example, if your grade reports, test scores and attendance are adequate to high w/o certification and services, what exactly do you need special ed. services for? In terms of ASD and the management of social skills, if you are not withdrawn, missing school or disturbed by your peers or disturbing them, you can take advantage of school counseling services w/o the necessity of special education services. All special education services are meant to assist students who show a disability that interferes with their school performance to the point of failure.

All colleges have counseling offices that can assist you to determine what the criteria are for a 504 Accomodation Plan. To qualify for a 504 Accomodation plan in k-12 or post-secondary education you must have proof of a diagnosed condition. Bear in mind, neither a 504 Plan or a prior k-12 IEP will result in a change of required courses for graduation or college. Nor are the schools required to offer you treatment of the diagnosed condition. Also, even if you have an IEP for special education services in k-12, once you graduate from HS, your plan is terminated.

So, yes, consult an OT for your personal needs, yes check out what the criteria are for a 504 Plan at the college level and yes, seek out what accomodations you need at the k-12 level.

As for whether or not you are on the ASD spectrum I will say what is generally unpopular these days. But I do say it with almost 20 years of experience of assessing youth of ALL ages for ASD.
If you have to ask or have to wonder--you're almost surely not on the spectrum. Yes you may find social situations chancy or have other quirks, but that does not mean that you are ASD. Either way, accept your strengths and weaknesses and advocate for what you need for your future success.

Best wishes........

[pnwmom]

14. Some of your information may be true in Michigan, but is not true in other states.

Specifically:

"Now for the tricky part. To qualify for k-12 special certification in ANY of the areas of certification more is involved than a point difference between your measured IQ and the scores that register on your academic testing. For example, if your grade reports, test scores and attendance are adequate to high w/o certification and services, what exactly do you need special ed. services for? In terms of ASD and the management of social skills, if you are not withdrawn, missing school or disturbed by your peers or disturbing them, you can take advantage of school counseling services w/o the necessity of special education services. All special education services are meant to assist students who show a disability that interferes with their school performance to the point of failure."

In at least two other states that I have personal experience with, if there is a large discrepancy between a gifted child's performance and his or her ability, due to learning differences detected in testing -- then that child is eligible for BOTH gifted and L.D. services. In other words, if the learning disability has meant that grade reports and test scores are average even though verbal ability is high, then the student is eligible for services. In the states with which I'm familiar, special education services are definitely NOT limited to students whose disability "interferes with their school performance to the point of failure." They are for students whose disability substantially impacts their performance -- and a highly gifted child able to perform only at the level of "adequate" (because of a disability) fits into this category.

My nephew had a reading disability . He struggled to read, but he and his mother worked so hard that he managed to eke out adequate grades. She knew there was a problem, though, and so did his teachers -- so he underwent testing in third grade. The result was that he qualified for both gifted and L.D. services.

You ask, if grades and test scores are adequate, "what do you need special ed. services for"? The answer, in my nephew's case, was to treat his reading disability so that it wouldn't hold him back from achieving at the high level that he was otherwise capable of. And thanks to the special ed services he had all the way through public school, he is now about to graduate with an engineering degree from an excellent college.

I would also be reluctant -- based on the small amount of information the OP provided -- to tell this student that she is only capable of basic math. Some highly capable (even highly verbal) math students do not thrive under the current, popular "constructivist" mode of math teaching that relies so heavily on translating math concepts into English.

[MichiganVote]

15. I cannot speak to your personal experiences. I CAN tell you that if the

MET team determines that there is a disability, a recommendation will be made for special ed. certification. The items I cite in my previous post refer to Federal standards. True states do have criteria of their own but those criteria are not at odds with the fed. regs.

I am not responding to your other comments which frankly I find self serving and without a basis in fact.

[pnwmom]

16. I hope no one is discouraged from seeking out available services

because of your lack of knowledge of how students in districts other than yours qualify for both gifted and L.D. services. Awareness of the needs of gifted/L.D. students has increased since you started working in the field twenty years ago. Unfortunately, many of these students manage to just get by in primary and secondary school, and aren't identified as L.D. until college (or worse, don't go to college even though they might thrive there.) You can find a great deal of information about this just by googling. Here's just one example:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KOC/is_1_5/ai_80306022/pg_2

"Gifted students with learning disabilities can be grouped into three categories: (a) identified gifted students with subtle learning disabilities; (b) unidentified students who struggle to maintain average achievement; and (c) identified students with learning disabilities who are later discovered to be gifted (Baum, 1990). Conservative estimates indicate that between 2% and 10% of all children enrolled in gifted programs have learning disabilities (Dix & Schafer, 1996). The students who maintain average achievement often go unnoticed and are the ones who discover later in life, usually in college, that they have learning disabilities (Baum, 1990). Approximately 41% of gifted students with learning disabilities are not diagnosed until college (Ferri, Gregg, & Heggoy, 1997).

"Additionally, difficulties identifying gifted students with learning disabilities are compounded in the primary grades because students are often able to compensate for their disability (Norton, 1996). Elementary age students may demonstrate higher-order thinking skills and contribute to class discussions but fail to submit written assignments (Tallent-Runnels & Sigler, 1995). They may be performing at acceptable levels initially; however, they may begin to falter in the secondary grades as the task demands increase, and they are no longer able to compensate for their disability with their giftedness (Tallent-Runnels & Sigler, 1995).

"The effects of misdiagnosis for these students can be quite severe. An unidentified or misdiagnosed student will not be able to benefit from much-needed special instruction. Furthermore, students who qualify for one program should not necessarily be excluded from the other (Brody & Mills, 1997). For example, a student could score a full scale IQ of 130 or higher on the WISC III, but have achievement test scores that differ by more than 1.5 standard deviations. This student may qualify for a gifted program but may also need special educational programming for the learning disability. Special instruction in both areas of giftedness and learning disability must be provided. Without appropriate diagnosis and placement, the discrepancy between achievement and intelligence may not be reduced and may result in low self-esteem, boredom, anxiety, disruptive behavior, and poor social acceptance for these students (Norton, 1996).

"Even when properly identified and diagnosed, some state policies do not permit school districts to be reimbursed twice for one student, and many of these students fail to qualify for multiple services (Brody & Mills, 1997; Fox, Brody, & Tobin, 1983). Furthermore, few school districts have dedicated programs for this under-served population, and those that are successful provide intensive and consistent interventions over extended periods (Gallagher, 1997; Johnson, Karnes, & Carr, 1997)."

SNIP
____________________________________________

EDITED TO ADD:

There appears to be increasing awareness of this issue even in Michigan. A Michigan organization for learning disabled children links to several articles on this topic, including the one below from the NEA.

http://www.ldaofmichigan.org/education.htm

http://www.nea.org/newsreleases/2006/nr061101.html

November 1, 2006

New Guide Helps Gifted Students with Special Needs
NEA and NAGC team up to assist educators, school districts and parents
CHARLOTTE—Students with special needs are being denied their basic right to a quality public education. In an effort to combat this trend, the National Education Association and the National Association for Gifted Children released a new guide today to help educators, school districts and parents address the needs of twice-exceptional students.

The term “twice-exceptional” refers to students who are intellectually gifted but have special needs or learning disabilities. . . .

The new publication, The Twice-Exceptional Dilemma, outlines how to identify twice-exceptional students, delineates the roles and responsibilities of school districts and educators, and suggests accommodations and available resources for addressing the needs of these students.

Many special-needs students have been denied specialized services and activities due in large part to a lack of funding. Despite the promises of lawmakers more than 30 years ago to pay 40 percent of the cost of educating students with disabilities, the federal share of funding for the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act is only 18 percent. This translates into a special education funding shortfall of nearly $13.2 billion for this year alone. Without federal resources, states and school districts are forced to cut essential programs.

Experts state that twice-exceptional students are considered gifted, disabled or neither. Since these students are rarely placed in both categories, it creates a situation where they fail to receive the full support and resources needed. This illustrates the importance of awareness, knowledge and proper identification guidelines.

There are six million public school students served under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. Twice-exceptional students are estimated to make up nearly six percent of that number.

“Twice-exceptional students are often overlooked because the disability or giftedness can be hidden,” said Nancy Green, NAGC executive director. “This publication provides much-needed guidance to ensure that these students receive the services they need to achieve their full potential.”

[MichiganVote]

21. And the articles are fine. However they do not change the Fed. rules.

If you suppose that people are discouraged by my post to ANOTHER person on the board, then I'm sorry for you. You surely must suffer with all the other people who respond to ANOTHER poster on the board with information that does not dismiss your unsolicited comments but does provide another point of view.

And for the record.......I am very skilled and exceptional in my career. Thanks for permitting me to affirm myself. I like it. :)

[pnwmom]

22. You are misinterpreting the Federal rules if you think they prevent other states

from offering L.D. services to highly gifted students who can manage only to perform at an average or "adequate" level in school.

Your district has apparently chosen to interpret the rules that way; but the interpretation is not universal.

[LWolf]

18. You're an aspie-girl.

:hi:

Coordination problems are common, as I'm sure you know. As a matter of fact, you just used text-book characteristics to describe yourself.

Are you saying you are NOT Asperger's? That would surprise me.

By this time, you shouldn't have to be writing assignments by hand.

I don't know what qualifies one for special ed at the university level, but Asperger's certainly does K-12.

[lightningandsnow]

19. Yup, apparently I don't actually have Asperger's.

I was damn near sure I had a mild form of it...but apparently I don't. (Username amnesty please, skinner?) The thing that basically excluded me from the criteria of it, essentially, is that I have boatloads of empathy. I can't read people's emotions very well based on their body language or facial expression, but I'm very concerned with how others see me (after a lifetime of making "mistakes" socially), and, also, if I know someone is upset or I hear about bad things happening to people, I basically feel it myself - other people being upset makes me upset.

[LWolf]

20. If you were in school K-12,

we would have qualified you for special ed under the category of "autistic-like characteristics." Schools can't diagnose autism or asperger's. Your characteristics would have been enough.

I'm surprised that empathy ruled it out. The aspie student I knew for the longest, K-5th grade, had an excessive amount of empathy. Along with motor skill problems, social problems, a big disparity between verbal and non-verbal intelligence, etc..

His empathy, when I think of it, wasn't really "classic," though. He felt their joy, their grief. Still, it was always from his own perspective, not from theirs.

I don't know how one gets a special ed designation at the university level. THEY can't diagnose autism, either. Do they require an official outside diagnosis, or do they have the "-like characteristics" option?

[mzteris]

23. Dysgraphia

http://www.ldinfo.com/dysgraphia.htm

http://www.ncld.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=468

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/dysgraphia/dysgraphia.htm



Some good books to read on Learning DIFFERENCES: A Mind at a Time and The Myth of Laziness both by Mel Levine, PhD.


Your school is required to offer you accommodations for your disability in writing; however, you must be diagnosed. Your parents can request in writing that the school test you.


edit to add: There is a yahoo group for people with dysgraphia, too.

[lightningandsnow]

24. Here's the thing.

I'm actually quite a good writer. I'm geting 100 in my Writer's Craft course, and am okay writing as long as it's on the computer.

My hands just don't work too well.

Interesting, though.

[mzteris]

25. Avi

is an author with dysgraphia.

It's not that you can't "write" (compose) - it's that you have difficulty physically making the letters/words/sentences. Pain in the hand/arm is a real giveaway - do you have an "awkward" pencil grip, too?

[mzteris]

26. a few more links for you:

http://www.cdl.org/resource-library/articles/graphomotor.php

http://www.resourceroom.net/readspell/dysgraphia.asp

http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/read.dysgraphia.facts.htm

[lightningandsnow]

27. Interesting.

The first paragraph of the second article describes me perfectly, actually. And my hand/arm always gets sore. (I do, however, have excellent spelling.)

I also have trouble with other fine motor skills - for example, I have trouble chopping vegetables - I can never make them a uniform size, and it takes me a long time.

My gross motor skills aren't great, either. I had trouble learning to ride a bike, and have a tendency to bump into people and things.

Interesting links! Thank you!

[Nikia]

28. I went to a private college that was good about accomodations

It was a competitve college with most students in the top 10% for class rank and/or standardized tests coming in. There were a number of students with dyslexia, ADD, physical problems, and other disabilities. There were personnel at the college who would evaluate both new students who knew that they already had problems snd students who previously hadn't been diagnosed that were having serious problems for the first time in the more competive environment. There were a few students that I knew of who used lap top computers for both notes and tests. Others were given extra time and/or allowed to take the test at another time and/or location. In your college search, you might want to coontact whatever office or department deals with students with disabilities. As far as math, drawing, and visuals, you might want to check the requirements of the college and/or potential major. Some of my science classes required a little drawing. None of my literature and social science classes required any drawing or visual memory. If there is an art requirement, some kind of music appreciation class would be a good bet.

[GoesTo11]

29. Get a 504.

Dysgraphia. Easy to accomodate with a laptop. In this century, should have no bearing on your ability to accomplish. Heck, it could even qualify you to be a doctor?

Seriously, even if for some reason you can't get a 504 (and you should be able to), you can also just explain your situation to instructors at the beginning of the term, bring an example of your handwritten work, and propose a solution they can live with. A small Asus mini-laptop is about $250 and is quiet. Some teachers might have a concern about cheating, so you'd have to work out something different with them. But for the most part, teachers should want to make it easier for you to succeed and this makes it less work for them too.

Good luck.