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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 06:27 PM
Original message
For Yankees Fans Only
Folks,

It's time to face facts. It's time to fire Joe Torre. I know. I know. It's early in the season. I'm panicking...blah, blah, blah.

Facts are facts. Joe Torre has been given a virtual All Star team for the past five seasons, and he just can't win the big games any more. He can't motivate his players. He can't fix bad habits. He can't change nor adjust to situations in a game. He's become too familiar to his opponents.

Now, I know what you're asking, "What about the four WS titles in five years? Show some loyalty. Show some respect." My answer: Bill Walsh. Bill Walsh won three SB titles in the 80s for the 49ers. Yet, he retired when his team won the whole thing in 1989. He could have stayed on for another year or so, and won a couple of more titles. Walsh knew that his act was growing tired on his players, and he knew that it was the right time to leave. His team won again the following year.


Additionally, Torre won his titles because his players were self-managers. Paul O'Neill could work himself out of a slump. David Cone knew what pitches to make in key situations. He didn't need a pitching coach. Currently, Torre doesn't have such players. The Yankees need a strong hand guiding them. This Yankee team needs a Lou Pinella.
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Sir Derek Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. It doesn't matter what the Yankees do the Toronto Bluejays
can't be beat this year.
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dolo amber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Totally off topic...
I can't believe Tino is back and I didn't even know! :o

Forget about Joe, I need to be fired. :cry:

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GoreDean2008 Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. I Rooted for Red Sox Last Year But
I will definitely root for the Yankees when Curt Schilling pitches against you. Schilling spoiled the WS victory last year by endorsing Bush on Good Morning America and I have no reason to root for this guy. Schilling's endorsement was the worse unprofessional behavior because he put his own politics above his team, endorsed a wrong person, and politically divided the Red Sox. So make sure your Bronx Bombers bust Schilling when he is on the mound.

Go Yankees!
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not a Yankee fan
but a huge fan of Torre.

First, I think you're panicking. I have picked the Yankees to win it all this year, and I stand by that.

Second, Jeter was right: This isn't the same team it was a few years ago. You guys lost the ALCS because your players played like individuals and not like a team. Each swung from their heels to try to win it all themselves, so they could be enshrined in Yankee lore etc.

Your problem isn't Torre. It's Cashman and Steinbrenner. It's the idea that buying talent is better than developing players and building a farm system. Developing players and building the farm system got you those 90s titles. The second - and I mean the very second - you guys got away from that, you hit this skid.

This isn't Torre's fault, and dumping him will make things worse. Your problems begin and end with Cashman and Steinbrenner.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Okay, Will, I Have A Question for you
You're the manager for the Yankees. You have Tony Womack on your team. You're facing a knuckleball pitcher. Do you bat Womack first in the lineup? You know, get a baserunner, then a steal, manufacture a run. If you have a hard time hitting a pitcher, shouldn't you put pressure on him in other ways?

Torre batted Womack 9th!?!?!
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. If I were Torre facing Wake
Edited on Mon Apr-11-05 11:23 PM by WilliamPitt
and knowing the trouble he'd given my team over the last two seasons, lineup would be less important than plate patience. Wait on the pitches and force Wake to walk guys, which has always been his Achilles heel against NY.

To further my premise that you are panicking, let me say (as a Sox fan with a long, sad history of similar behavior) that you are asking for trouble bitching at a manager over lineup issues. Torre knows more than you. Your team is really, really good, as is your manager. Deep breaths, and enjoy the next 159 games.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Torre is Highly Overrated
He has to be given an AllStar team in order to win. Keep in mind, he won those championships with Buck Showalter's players. Much like Bob Brenly won his WS title with Buck's players. As Buck's players have faded from this team, so have the championships. Player after player just somehow can't cut it in NY. Not Rondell White, not Alfonso Soriano, not Jeff Weaver, not Javier Vazquez, not Jason Giambi, not A-Rod, etc. The only Yankees that have done well are from Buck's era, Jeter, Posada, Bernie, and Mariano.

In all seriousness, I'd rather have Bobby Valentine as my manager. He took a Mets team to the WS with this starting outfield, Benny Abagyani, Timo Perez, and Jay Payton.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Hokay
I'm going to acqiesce to your wisdom, as you know more about the team than I do.

I will part with this: 1. Firing Torre isn't on the menu, so bone up on your coping skills; 2. I still thiunk it'll make it worse.

Admit this much: Having the Sox be champions makes the rivalry way better, both in the long run and the short run.

I respect your team immensely, as my previous thread made clear.

NOW it's a rivalry. Your freak-out kinda proves that. And that's good.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. The Red Sox Fans Make The Rivalry
If the Sox had never won, Red Sox fans would be still be in our grill. The Sox winning it all has turned the rivalry all the way to up 11 on the speaker. It's always going to be a great rivalry no matter who wins or not.

As for Torre, I'm not panicking. The guy simply cannot manage a baseball team. Every year he's been given an over-abundance of talent, and every year since 2000, that talent has under-performed in some manner. Moreover, he makes critical mistakes in big game situations. In the 2003 WS, he brought Weaver back into the game instead of using Mariano in Game 4 which cost us the WS.

He's great with the media. He's a nice man. He's great with George, but he's a terrible in-game manager.
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Joey Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. YANKEES SUCK!
Sorry, being from the New England area, I just couldn't resist.
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Emboldened Chimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Hey, read the thread title--Yanks fans only
Bug off!
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Red Sox blow
there we're even in juvenile chants.
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Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
10. While I know there are a minority of people who dislike Torre..
giving him no credit for any of their success when he has been their manager, your discussion was interesting until your last sentence. The Yankees don't need a blowhard has-been as their manager.

The Yankees have taken the division under Torre for 8 years, I think,
and only once did not go through to the ALCS. Torre's won 4 world series, went to two others and with all due respect to the Red Sox, lost the 2004 ALCS in 2 extraordinarily long games (4 & 5) that hinged on whose pitchers held up in the end. The Diamondback WS was lost by blown 9th inning saves in both the 6th & 7th games, I believe. I think he won every All-Star game he managed, except for the one called on account of the Commish.

The biggest problem for the Yankees over the last few years in terms of players has been pitching. Torre has little to say in terms of whom Cashman & Steinbrenner go after, and is also not responsible for the General Office not caring too much abt developing home grown players in the minors.

Do you think there is a baseball team in the majors who would not trade their records for the last 10 years with those of the Yankees?

Torre hasn't raised anyone from the dead yet, so he's not Jesus. But he's been a great manager.

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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
11. Torre doesn't know how to manage pitching
Plan and simple.
How badly was Quantrill, Gordon, and Rivera overused last year?
Jeeeez.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Yankees relievers in 2004
Contreras, Jose
DePaula, Jorge
Gordon, Tom
Graman, Alex
Halsey, Brad
Heredia, Felix
Hernandez, Orlando
Karsay, Steve
Marsonek, Sam
Nitkowski, C.J.
Osborne, Donovan
Padilla, Juan
Prinz, Bret
Proctor, Scott
Quantrill, Paul
Rivera, Mariano
Sturtze, Tanyon
White, Gabe


Keep in mind some got hurt, some were traded and some came at the trade deadline.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Point by point rebuttal....
"It's time to face facts. It's time to fire Joe Torre."

Short answer: no

"I know. I know. It's early in the season. I'm panicking...blah, blah, blah. "

Short answer: yes

"Facts are facts. Joe Torre has been given a virtual All Star team for the past five seasons,"

5 division titles, 3 pennants and a WS title...he sucks!

"and he just can't win the big games any more."

What like the first two series in April?

"He can't motivate his players."

Names...and let's not try squeezing blood from a stone.

"He can't fix bad habits."

Name ANY manager that has this miraculous ability.

"He can't change nor adjust to situations in a game."

I have no response to this because I always considered this skill one of his finer points.

"He's become too familiar to his opponents."

Welcome to the age of the unbalanced schedule conflicting with the long time manager.

"Now, I know what you're asking, "What about the four WS titles in five years? Show some loyalty. Show some respect.""

Loyalty nothing. This is the horse we will win with, past present and hopefully future.

"My answer: Bill Walsh. Bill Walsh won three SB titles in the 80s for the 49ers. Yet, he retired when his team won the whole thing in 1989. He could have stayed on for another year or so, and won a couple of more titles. Walsh knew that his act was growing tired on his players, and he knew that it was the right time to leave. His team won again the following year."

Or he was forced out in an ugly mess with Debartolo. Still a classy guy but I think he would have rather stayed.

"Additionally, Torre won his titles because his players were self-managers."

Okay?

"Paul O'Neill could work himself out of a slump."

With the help of Torre moving him around in the lineup and giving him days off.

"David Cone knew what pitches to make in key situations. He didn't need a pitching coach."

And Torre was the guy who stuck by him when his arm first had an aneurisym and later when he just plain ran out of gas.

"Currently, Torre doesn't have such players. The Yankees need a strong hand guiding them. This Yankee team needs a Lou Pinella."

Would that be Lou "I shit the bed" Pinella in 1999 LCS? Or the Lou "It would be cool to retire but still work" Pinella of Tamapa Bay fame?

Granted Lou would certainly make the tabloids happy and would give the fans the occasional freak out but I don't see what he has to offer otherwise.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Re-Rebuttal
"It's time to face facts. It's time to fire Joe Torre."

Short answer: no
Re-Rebutal: Yes, and listen to the arguments first.

"I know. I know. It's early in the season. I'm panicking...blah, blah, blah. "

Short answer: yes
Re-Rebutall: Well, if you count the collapse from the ALCS 2004, then the Yankees have been playing very uninspired baseball.

"Facts are facts. Joe Torre has been given a virtual All Star team for the past five seasons,"

5 division titles, 3 pennants and a WS title...he sucks!

Re-Rebuttal: Again, he has the most talented team in ALL of baseball. He literally has his picks of the best free agents every year. Given that, his success is not all that great. The Braves for instance have far, far less talent, but the same number of division titles. Also, his 2000 WS win was the last year of Buck Showalter's players.


"and he just can't win the big games any more."

What like the first two series in April?
Re-Rebuttal: Again, you have to count the collapse in the ALCS.


"He can't motivate his players."
Names...and let's not try squeezing blood from a stone.
Re-Rebuttal: A-Rod is playing poorly. Quantril is playing poorly. Posada has not been hitting. Giambi is a basket case.



"He can't fix bad habits."

Name ANY manager that has this miraculous ability.

Re-Rebuttal: Bobby Cox. Lou Pinella.

"He can't change nor adjust to situations in a game."

I have no response to this because I always considered this skill one of his finer points.

Re-Rebuttal: Really, he's faced Wakefield a million times over the past three years, and he still cannot figure out how to hit him.


"He's become too familiar to his opponents."

Welcome to the age of the unbalanced schedule conflicting with the long time manager.
Again, he can't make adjustments.


"Now, I know what you're asking, "What about the four WS titles in five years? Show some loyalty. Show some respect.""

Loyalty nothing. This is the horse we will win with, past present and hopefully future.

Re-Rebuttal: Not with Torre we won't.

"My answer: Bill Walsh. Bill Walsh won three SB titles in the 80s for the 49ers. Yet, he retired when his team won the whole thing in 1989. He could have stayed on for another year or so, and won a couple of more titles. Walsh knew that his act was growing tired on his players, and he knew that it was the right time to leave. His team won again the following year."

Or he was forced out in an ugly mess with Debartolo. Still a classy guy but I think he would have rather stayed.

Guess what. 49ers won the next season in a huge blowout. The organization was right.


"Additionally, Torre won his titles because his players were self-managers."

Okay?

"Paul O'Neill could work himself out of a slump."

With the help of Torre moving him around in the lineup and giving him days off.

"David Cone knew what pitches to make in key situations. He didn't need a pitching coach."

And Torre was the guy who stuck by him when his arm first had an aneurisym and later when he just plain ran out of gas.

Re-Rebuttal: And that makes him a great manager? Sticking by one of the best pitchers in the game? You become great by turning an average pitcher into a great pitcher


"Currently, Torre doesn't have such players. The Yankees need a strong hand guiding them. This Yankee team needs a Lou Pinella."

Would that be Lou "I shit the bed" Pinella in 1999 LCS? Or the Lou "It would be cool to retire but still work" Pinella of Tamapa Bay fame?

Re-Rebuttal: That would be Lou "I took an underdog Cinn. Reds team to the WS in 1990 and swept the mighty A's in four straight" Pinella.

Granted Lou would certainly make the tabloids happy and would give the fans the occasional freak out but I don't see what he has to offer otherwise.

Lou may be the best manager in all of baseball next to Buck Showalter. He's taking the most miserable franchise in baseball and is making them somewhat competitive. I'd love to have Lou Pinella managing the Yankees right now.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Re-Re rebuttal
"Re-Rebutall: Well, if you count the collapse from the ALCS 2004, then the Yankees have been playing very uninspired baseball."

Game 4 - Mo of all people can't hold 'em. Game 5 - again close. I'll include those games I still come to 11 games of uninspired baseball(by your count), I think Stein gave Yogi more chances(actually he didn't)

"Re-Rebuttal: Again, he has the most talented team in ALL of baseball. He literally has his picks of the best free agents every year. Given that, his success is not all that great. The Braves for instance have far, far less talent, but the same number of division titles."

But not the same amount of pennants, World Series titles etc. not to mention the braves after 93 played in the worst division in baseball for a long time. Yanks battled The O's then the Sox with the Bluejays making a little noise every couple of years.

"Also, his 2000 WS win was the last year of Buck Showalter's players."

Buck's guys? Let's see Mo was a starter still, then I have Bernie & O'Neill. Did Leyritz come back that year? Who else was a Buck guy during 2000?

"and he just can't win the big games any more."
What like the first two series in April?
Re-Rebuttal: Again, you have to count the collapse in the ALCS."

Terrible loss. But that's doesn't prove he can't win big games anymore.

""He can't motivate his players."
Names...and let's not try squeezing blood from a stone.
Re-Rebuttal: A-Rod is playing poorly. Quantril is playing poorly. Posada has not been hitting. Giambi is a basket case."

Are you speaking of 2005 or 2004 or 2003 or what?

"He can't fix bad habits."
Name ANY manager that has this miraculous ability.
Re-Rebuttal: Bobby Cox. Lou Pinella. "

Okay Bobby is the best in the business at turning crap relief into actual relief. Lou is known for ruining young arms, maybe he does better with hitters.

"He can't change nor adjust to situations in a game."
I have no response to this because I always considered this skill one of his finer points.
Re-Rebuttal: Really, he's faced Wakefield a million times over the past three years, and he still cannot figure out how to hit him."

That's tough because all Torre can do is preach patience against Wakefield. And I do remember them having some delicious success in 2003.

"He's become too familiar to his opponents."

Welcome to the age of the unbalanced schedule conflicting with the long time manager.
Again, he can't make adjustments."

And yet he still wins his division.

"Now, I know what you're asking, "What about the four WS titles in five years? Show some loyalty. Show some respect.""
Loyalty nothing. This is the horse we will win with, past present and hopefully future.
Re-Rebuttal: Not with Torre we won't."

Without Torre, we have zero titles.

"My answer: Bill Walsh. Bill Walsh won three SB titles in the 80s for the 49ers. Yet, he retired when his team won the whole thing in 1989. He could have stayed on for another year or so, and won a couple of more titles. Walsh knew that his act was growing tired on his players, and he knew that it was the right time to leave. His team won again the following year."
Or he was forced out in an ugly mess with Debartolo. Still a classy guy but I think he would have rather stayed.
Guess what. 49ers won the next season in a huge blowout. The organization was right."

With Walsh's guys.

"Additionally, Torre won his titles because his players were self-managers."

Okay?

"Paul O'Neill could work himself out of a slump."

With the help of Torre moving him around in the lineup and giving him days off.

"David Cone knew what pitches to make in key situations. He didn't need a pitching coach."
And Torre was the guy who stuck by him when his arm first had an aneurisym and later when he just plain ran out of gas.
Re-Rebuttal: And that makes him a great manager? Sticking by one of the best pitchers in the game? You become great by turning an average pitcher into a great pitcher"

When the guy was in danger of losing his freakin arm and was in danger of not pitching again? And Torre's not a pitching coach. One could argue Mel has done so with Mo. He went from a young fireballer to the dominant closer. Pettite too.

"Currently, Torre doesn't have such players. The Yankees need a strong hand guiding them. This Yankee team needs a Lou Pinella."
Would that be Lou "I shit the bed" Pinella in 1999 LCS? Or the Lou "It would be cool to retire but still work" Pinella of Tamapa Bay fame?
Re-Rebuttal: That would be Lou "I took an underdog Cinn. Reds team to the WS in 1990 and swept the mighty A's in four straight" Pinella."

And you think I'm living in the past??????

"Granted Lou would certainly make the tabloids happy and would give the fans the occasional freak out but I don't see what he has to offer otherwise."

"Lou may be the best manager in all of baseball next to Buck Showalter."

Buck Showalter talk about players tiring of crap. He was run out his last two jobs. Then more competent manager(and trust me it pains me to say that about Brenly) won with pretty much the same cast. Not exactly a ringing endorsements from someone who poo poos 8 div titles, 6 pennets and 4 WS wins.

"He's taking the most miserable franchise in baseball and is making them somewhat competitive. I'd love to have Lou Pinella managing the Yankees right now."

Yeah gotta love Lou in April! Maybe they can win 75 games!
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. Geez...
I hope NY doesn't get anxiety attacks like Boston used to (still does?).

Former Boston Manager quoted:

"In MLB there are 162 games, in Boston there are 162 seasons."

The name of the manager eludes me at this time.
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Emboldened Chimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. Remeber '98?
Yanks started 1-4, then proceeded to have the best season in baseball history. Last year the Yanks were abysmal in all of April, then made it to the ALCS. But is it time for Torre to go? No, not yet. If he doesn't win it this year--which he should with the players he has--then yes, it may be time to go. And he, above all, will realize this.
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
20. it was time to fire Torre last year
batting Womack leadoff is a crime against humanity. And he's a Republican to boot.
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