Taking an oath of office with a hand on the bible

[bryant69]

I know this is custom - but I'm curious if anybody knows any more about - let me explain. Dennis Prager is taking Kieth Ellison to task in his latest article for wanting to take his oath of office with his hand on the Koran. He makes two claims - that America has chosen the Bible as our sacred work and that no other member of Congress has sworn on anything else. Both of those claims seem phoney to me - and I'm researching the boguessness of them - but if you have any ideas on where to start I'd appreciate it.

Bryant

[pooja]

1. If a Muslim swears on the Bible, does it mean he is allowed to lie

and disgrace America, since the Bible means nothing sacred to him... Oh, wait this is Washington... the people swearing on the Bible are doing nothing to uphold their oath anyway.

Ought to be swearing to uphold the constitution and sign an afidavit that says so, when they don't do as they have promised to do... off with their heads...

Seriously, 1/2 of the judges out their do not have a signed statement that says the swear to uphold the constitution...and that's a bit scarey.

[BOSSHOG]

2. If Ellison swore on a bible

would that not negate his pledge since he does not believe in the bible? Would that not make sense to anyone other than a "conservative" who believes this is not a free country but a christian country. I can't address your issue but several years ago the military provided the option to servicemembers in their enlistment oath (I do solemnly swear <or affirm>.)

Maybe prager should research how well the pledge on the bible worked for ney and foley and all the other fine upstanding "christians" who "serve" in public office as repubicans.

And george dubya bush put his hand on the bible and swore to uphold and support the constitution. Fucked that up real good didn't he prager.

[havocmom]

3. Taking the oath on what one deems sacred seems more helpful

bush/cheney put their mitts on bibles. No problem betraying their oaths shows how they REALLY feel about their much touted faith.

Maybe they should have put their hands on their investment portfolios. Seems that is all they hold sacred.

Bibles only have power over believers. Bibles do not assure any sort of dedication or honesty. If the oath taker is a lying rat, a bible is just a prop.

Let a person swear an oath on what they deem holy. Couldn't hurt, might help.

As a historical question, anybody know if ALL members of Congress have used a New Testament Bible for their oaths, or have some Jewish members used Old Testaments for their oaths? Precedents?

WWDD? (What would deists do?) ;)

[yellowcanine]

4. Well most congressmen are not sworn on a Bible at all. Usually the oath of

office is administered to the whole bunch at the beginning of the new Congress by the newly elected Speaker. As they are all standing up and raising their right hands, there is no way to put their left hand on a Bible or anything else. See pic here at link:



Sometimes members of Congress will have ceremonial swearing in pictures taken where they will have their spouse hold a Bible, but this is strictly a tradition at the discretion of of the member - it is certainly not required. And the book could be anything. I believe that some have even used a copy of the Constitution, which certainly makes more sense.

[kiahzero]

5. As others have mentioned, TR didn't use a Bible when he was sworn in

You might want to start there; he's not a Congressperson, but I think President counts.

As for his claim that "America has chosen the Bible as our sacred work," it's flat out bullshit.

[trotsky]

6. Here's an interesting link.

http://www.wash.org/wlmay06_3_1.html

Apparently John Quincy Adams and Teddy Roosevelt are two of the presidents who didn't swear on a bible. Wonder if Prager questions their patriotism.

[bryant69]

7. Thanks for the link.

Bryant

[LibertyLover]

8. Here is a webpage with a nice explanation

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/arg11.htm

There is actually nothing in the Constitution that requires a member of Congress to take an oath of office on a Bible. Article VI states:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

If I recall, it was George Washington who established the custom for the president to take the oath of office with his hand on a Bible and to include the words "so help me God" at the end of said oath. Those words don't appear in the required text in the Constitution either. In fact, the wording of both the presidential oath of office and the oaths required of Congressional members and state legislatures provide that one may either swear an oath to uphold the Constitution or to affirm they will support the Constitution. This was done so that religious groups who had objections to swearing oaths could still participate in government. It is custom and custom alone that people are following when swearing an oath of office on the Bible. I personally would prefer to see them place their hand on a copy of the Constitution, but that's just me.

[bryant69]

12. Thank you for the link

I agree with the suggestion that they should put their hands on the constitution - makes sense to me, and ducks all these issues.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. I don't have the supporting links, but I have read that most of the

early presidents did NOT swear on the bible - and the in-court swearing, for the majority of the nation's history was simply "raise your right hand - do you swear or affirm that the testimony you give is the truth?" and the answer "I so swear (or affirm)". No bible, so "so help me god".

It all started to change in the 1830s, during the so-called "great awakening" when the country was absorbing refugees from various european wars, including the religious war in Ireland -- millions of people raised under the rule of kings who just didn't get the concept of separation of church and state.

It's been a while since I looked, I'm not remembering exactly, but Freedom From Religion has a web site that gives a lot of that history (Freedomfromreligion.org? something like that).

[ashling]

10. Excuse my ignorance, but

who the hell is Dennis Prager?

[bryant69]

11. He is a Jewish Radio Host and editorial writer

He's a strong propoenent of the "Muslim Menace" way of looking at the middle east.

Bryant

[immoderate]

14. Have to point out that some Jews consider him an embarrassment.

He is a pompous asshole on steroids. **shudders**

--IMM

[Kaufman_Lib]

13. In the DFW area...

http://www.ksky.com//prager.aspx

[Parche]

15. bible

That is the thing that I cant stand, the bible is just a fictional fantasy book
and most every office holder puts their left hand on it and raises their right hand,
If they do that to me if I am in court, I will refuse to put my left hand on the bible
as it is against my 'religion'!! ha

[sinkingfeeling]

16. I would like Dennis Prager to show me the vote that 'chose the Bible as our sacred work'.

[sarge43]

17. One more time

Article VI, Section 3, USC requires that everyone holding a public office in these here United States swear or affirm to support the Constitution and forbids a religious test for any public office. That's it. No Bible required.

Now whether or not everyone elected to congress took the oath on a Bible would be impossible to confirm; there has been hundreds of thousands of congresscritters. At least two presidents have not - T. Roosevelt and Coolidge.

As for We the People choosing the Bible as our sacred text, see above. The Founding Fathers didn't and, while I'm no expert in American history, I don't think that choice was ever put to a national referendum.

I think Prager is just having a rightwing tizzy which usually entails a total shutdown of cognitive functions.