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mystique Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:44 PM
Original message
Here is a question for you guys...
What do you really think of "Islam" ??? Please be honest about it.

Do you believe it is a violent religion and should be wiped out, or do you think it's about peace? Or do you think it's no worse than Christianity or other religions and should be left alone as it is? That it's not our problem how they especially treat their women...
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Since I'm not a Muslim, I my opinion has no validity.
Nor more than it would if I were to comment on Baptists or Zoroastrians, because I'm not one of them, either.

Redstone
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. so, you are not allowed to have an opinion
on that which you are not? Come now...you're not a republican and I bet you have an opinion on them... ;-)

sP
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. But religion is a much more sensitive subject for people. It's much
more personal. I think it's rude to comment on something that people take that seriously.

I'm not religious, but there's no way in hell I'm going to ever tell anyone else that they shouldn't be. Or tell them that there's something wrong with the flavor of religion that they choose.

Redstone
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. well, I was just poking at ya cause it is 03.00
and i am without sleep at the moment...but it is ok to have and even voice an opinion because it is, after all just an opinion. You don't have to say that you think they are right or wrong or in the middle. But, that's just my opinion...so now that I am onto circular discussions, I bid you good night...

sP
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Dang, you sound like I do when I'm tired. Sleep well.
Redstone
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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. Who are you referring to here - Prodigal
Redstone or Mystique???
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. to redstone...but I could have replied to the wrong message
I am very tired...but sleep evades me this night...

sP
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm an atheist, so first and foremost I think islam is superstition...
...which is exactly the same way I regard christianity, judaism, et al. That doesn't really address the cultural aspects of islam, christianity, and etc, but again, I think ALL religions are paradoxical in that they have a propensity to stimulate violence even while proclaiming peace. I suspect this reflects fundamental flaws in human nature.
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Monkeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Islam is peaceful
Treatment of women is just wrong. Like honor killings. But look at the far right they are just as dangerous. Most homeschool with their ideas only. Some here still walk behind their husband and look at them like Mrs Bush does. All relions can be dangerous if they just believe their is the only one
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Agreed.
Good points.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's been more of a mystery to me than anything else
When I think of Islam I think of their call to prayer and how beautiful it can sound.
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Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. Oh lord.......
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 08:54 PM by Nickster
:eyes:

Sounds like a RW talking point to me. Conflating extremist Muslims with the religion of Islam and making the religion about violence. The violence is being caused by extremists who have their own interpretation of the Islamic faith, not the average follower. But then again, I'm sure you don't care about that and just want to hear how the darn liberals are terra-ist lovers, donchya?
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. I have to admit
that I'm sick and fucking tired of them calling for the death of anyone who criticizes them. It is high time for the "reasonable" muslims speak out. Where are they?
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Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. UBL calls for the death of Americans, Pat Robertson calls for the death of
democratically elected leaders in South America, what's the difference? We've got some of the same brand of extremists. The extremist muslims just happen to have better infrastructure in place right now, the extremists in our country are working on following the exact same path. How do we know that moderate Muslims aren't speaking up? We sure aren't giving them the platform to speak to the US. Heck, we can't even hear Democratic messages. Not to mention, the violence that we are spreading in the Middle East sure works to stoke up the extremist flames, which works to surpress the moderate voices in the Middle East. How many moderate Iraqis do you think have died because they were in the cross fire of American troops and religious militias? Extremism and violence have a way to dampen moderate influences. Look at our own situation here, our society has moved so far to the right that moderate voices are eaten alive. I used to be a moderate myself until Dubya took office.
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. UBL and Robertson are both idiots.
If this Islamic religion is so strong and inspires such compassion, then those who protest (if they do) should speak out, take their religion back, and get rid of the nuts.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. UBL and Robertson are both idiots.
If this Christian religion is so strong and inspires such compassion, then those who protest (if they do) should speak out, take their religion back, and get rid of the nuts.



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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Cute. n/t
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #15
54. Of course they are not speaking out.
Because if you don't hear about it on the news it does not exist.

:eyes:

You know what? I'm sick and tired of not hearing anyone with real power in America completely comdemn American warmongering.

Because do you know what? From what I see and hear, I see just about as many Muslims saying that terrorism is not the way as I hear people saying Warmongering aggression is not the way.

Quite a few on both sides.

Now, the next question is: Did you just need to blow off steam? If so, I'll get off yer back, but if you really wanna debate what Muslim people really think, you've got someone to argue with in me.
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. Do I think its a violent religion and should be wiped out?
By some better non violent types I presume?
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. That's an interesting question
how does one "wipe out" a religion? Nations rise and fall, but the only thing I've ever heard of which wipes out religions is other religions.
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. Lets just teach our kids critical thinkiing, not just how to pass tests
and how to please authority figures. You aren't going to change the mind of someone already
satisfied to let others think for them.

Next generation please.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. That's why I'm so glad the dems are backing science in the platform
they should also back teaching critical thinking. It's the one common ground between the religious left and atheist left.

As a spiritual type, I don't think critical thinking would wipe out religion at all, but it would certainly wipe out whackjob interpretations. Then people could actually think objectively about what Jesus said instead of going around cheerleading war in the name of the "Prince of Peace".
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #39
55. The problem here is...
That many people seem to sperate religion and the rest of reality. See post #22.

Religion is off limits. No critisizing it... and that includes submiting it to your own logic.

I sometimes wonder how much it would take to actualy shake those particular delusions.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. Islam is almost indistinguishable from Christianity or other sky religions
it predisposes its followers to be docile and easily led by cynical political leaders

it is prone to cyclical outbreaks of violent and volatile fundamentalism, which always leads to enormous suffering, upheaval and destruction

it is antithetical to rationality and reason as a world view

all these points apply equally to Christianity
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. Its the right idea, but it gets messed up.
I think the intent is in the word, which means "Submission to God". But the problem is that its even more easy to be a Muslim fundamentalist than a Christian one, because the Koran, unlike the Bible, contains no internal contradictions lending itself to a more literal interpretation, i.e. less thought, more blind following.

I think for Islam to be okay, muslims need to accept that their interpretation of the Koran is human and fallible (fundamentalists can never do this) and be willing to really think and debate about what it is to be a muslim. If this process is in place, then there will be more peace.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. Great Book to read.. Short and too the point....
God Against the Gods

Jonathan Kirsch

I recommend it to every one...

Constantine and the merging of the Roman Empire with Christianity and how Julian struggled to reconstitute polytheism....



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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. Geez. Pretty leading questions. No comment.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. Reminds me of the "what is torture" post from the other night
Care to wager if reponses to either of these questions end up on rw boards?
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rubberducky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. I do not think that you can "wipe out"........
a belief. I live about 10 miles from a very large community of mulims, and there really have been no problems here. I work with many and have never seen a jihadist. After 911 some of the people I work with said "I always suspected they were like that". This from "good christians", with very small minds.
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Opusnone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
16. I don't fancy ANY desert death cult (C, I, J)
But I respect other's rights to believe whatever the hell they want.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
17. Hi Mystique. How Bout You Start Us Off. What Are Your Views On It?
Appreciate the response. Thanks.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. it is a wisdom tradition
just like hindu or christianity...
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mystique Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. .....
Quote:

"Since I'm not a Muslim, I my opinion has no validity."

So, Redstone, would you say we should just leave them to their own brutality because we are not one of them and it isn't our problem?

BTW, I am surprised you know about Zoroastrians. Not many do.

Quote:
"Some here still walk behind their husband and look at them like Mrs Bush does."

Yes, true, Monkeyman, but Mrs Bush does it out of ignorance and free will. Over there, there is no choice. Either you do what is expected or face the brutal consequesnces.

I know, religion has always been played by politicians to gain power, but this is getting too dangerous. And over here, we do have religion whackos, but so far, (not for long, though), our laws are seperated from our biblical beliefs...unlike the other part of the world.
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Zoroastrians
Wasn't Freddy Mercury (aka Farrokh Bulsara) from this sect?
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. "leave them to their own brutality "
be careful, those words smell downright colonial. Why are WE not living under religious oppression? Because the 1776 rebelion separated church and state. Why was there a revolution? Because there was the collective will to make it so.

Its easy to project our values onto them, and assume that they want to be liberated, but if that were truly the case, they would do it themselves. The Iraq war shows us the error of assuming too much about how they want to live.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
58. I'm not following
worship how you please. Let others follow their wisdom tradition.

If ladies like wearing Burkas,,,, so be it...
peace
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
20. Welcome to DU, mystique!
:hi:

I would say that any faith that demands adherence to dogma is toxic to rational thought and incompatible with democracy. Islam is inherently no better and no worse in this regard than Christianity.

Any faith that declares a belief, tradition, or ritual to be beyond question is suspect and should be shunned; those who profess special wisdom or authority regarding such a religion should be afforded only minimal trust. Again, Islam is no better and no worse.

More important, what do you think of Islam?

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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
21. I doubt that many Christians would want to be all lumped together
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 09:06 PM by Marr
and judged as one entity. I assume Islam's devotees feel similarly.

I've known some really great people who were devoutly religious- both Christian and Muslim. Some of the kindest, most selfless people I've ever met, in fact. I've known a few real major league assholes from both religions as well.

I don't think Islam is any worse than Christianity, or vice versa.

And for the record, "wiping a religion out" for being violent would make the people doing the wiping worthy of extermination themselves, would it not?
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
24. What do you think of fundamentalists - Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.?
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
25. I believe that real islam is a peaceful religion.
But the fundamentalists are ruining the religion. I caught a little bit of Glenn Beck this evening, and there was a guy from the Muslim Public Relations (I can't remember the last word in the title) on. He said they had condemned the killing of the nun, and accepted the apology of the Pope, knowing he wasn't really talking about THEIR Islam. I understand where the guy comes from. I'm embarrassed and appauled most of the time at my fellow christians. Rosie O'Donnell was right about one thing. Hard core Christians are just as bad as Hard core Muslims. They blow up family planning clinics, they terrorize people they don't agree with or understand, and haven't most of the people who were in the KKK proclaimed to be Christians, doing the work of the Lord? Fundamentalist Christians are some of the biggest hypocrites in the world.
Duckie
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
27. I don't know about Islam
but all I can say is every person I've personally known who comes from the Middle East have been some of the kindest, gentlest, most generous people you would ever want to meet.

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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Yeah, that can't be said enough...
I have met some wonderful, kind people from those parts.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
29. I'll answer yours if you answer mine first:
What does it mean when someone says, "They are trying to destroy our way of life."?
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
36. Whatever the problems of Islam are,
They aren't ours. The problems with Christianity are. Christians influence American politics and Muslims do not. When this influence is malignant, which is not to say it's never benign, it is our prerogative to fight it.

It's the prerogative of Muslims to free themselves from Muslim oppression. Where would the women's rights movement be today if Islamic armies had invaded the US in the early 20th century to come to the aid of the suffragettes?

From personal experience I know the horrors of Islam to be exaggerated. In the Muslim countries I've visited the streets are cleaner and safer and the poor are better taken care of than in this country. When I worked for a multinational a visiting businesswoman from Egypt made the mistake of walking out on the street and nearly had a nervous breakdown. Why? Because she saw, for the first time, homeless people.

Of course they do wrong. So do we. Let's clean up our own house. It's insane to try to clean up someone else's first.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. I'm curious:
Do you agree with the poster above who said that teaching critical thinking to youths (instead of loyalty to authority and regurgitating doctrine) would help end religious fundamentalism?
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. It would help
I'm not sure it's the magic bullet, though. Fundamentalism here has increased as education has deteriorated--that's for sure.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Its something we can all get behind though.
religious left, and atheists. It would be cool to see it backed by Dems. I have suspicians that there are a lot of "middle of the road" conservatives who are getting sick of the nonsense at this point at well.

Its good to see science explicitly mentioned on the Democratic platform at least!
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
38. My 2 cents on religion
I believe that all religion can be a good thing for some people .
I believe that no religion can be a good thing for some people .
I believe that deep personal faith can be a good thing for some people.

I believe that all religion can be a bad thing for some people .
I believe that no religion can be a bad thing for some people.
I believe that deep personal faith can be a bad thing for some people.

I believe that any person who takes the life of another in the
name of that religion , shames that religion .

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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
43. Number one "they" don't "treat women" - different cultures all over the
world treat women in various ways (mostly shitty, but not all) It's not just Islam, or christianity, it's how it is USED, just like any other tool. And if you don't think religion is anything other than a tool, well think again. It CAN be used for positive purposes, but in general it isn't. I personally think the world ought to try living without it for a while. See if we can function without mythical beings' supposed influence on things.


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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
44. I have no use for any organized religion. Islam or otherwise. n/t
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
45. Do you have any friends that are Muslim?
It's an important question, I'd like to know. Thanks. :hi:
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
49. "Wiped out?" You're talking about hundreds of millions of people
It's a vast and varied religion, with good and bad, just like the others.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
50. My take is that a great majority of Muslims are as inspired toward
peace in their tradition as St. Francis, for example, was in his.

I acknowledge the great majorities who seek a variety of texts and traditions to find inspiration and solace. I think those things are common and universal to most all traditions.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
51. The Islamic world saved science while Europe wallowed in darkness.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
52. Am I being too literal? I see Islam as a collection of people.
(Actually, this is an approximation as few people think like me... in reality I think in terms of pdf's, but I said "collection of people" gets the point across somewhat accurately)
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
53. I personally think Islam is nonsensical and idiotic.
Edited on Tue Sep-19-06 02:22 AM by Evoman
In the same way, I think Cristianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism are non-sensical and stupid. Religion literally makes absolutely no sense to me, and everytime I really think about it, it boggles my mind that people actually believe it. I can understand why people pretend to be Christian or Moslem, or whatever....culturally, it makes sense in a way to adhere to a religion. But that people actually believe that Jesus was a god, or the Mohammed was a prophet, or that Noah and Moses existed, floors me.

I can separate the believer from the belief, however. I don't hate Moslems or Christians, but I can't stand Islam or Christianity. Believe it or not, one of my best friends (although we aren't as close since she moved :( ) is Muslim, a very good acquantence/casual friend of mine is Hindu, and my girlfriend is Christian (so any one who wants to call me a bigot can kiss my ass).

On edit: I also don't think that people who believe in Christianity or Islam or Buddhism are all stupid or ignorant, so please don't flame or straw-man me.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
56. There are many Islams, just like there are many Xianities.
Some are fine. Some are vile and loathsome. To conflate them to to commit a serious logical error. It's an error many people like to make, and one that most Muslims seems to be bent on defending.

My problem with Islam was summed up in a discussion I had with a colleague a few years ago.

When idiots read Christianity's founding documents in toto without any doctrinal preconceptions, they tend to revert to observing the non-state portions of the OT law and being tolerant pacifists. Such movements have been attested here and there for nearly 2000 years now. The more you look to tradition that breaks with the text, and the less to the actual words written in the New Testament, the more you see violence. 15th-17th century Xianity.

When idiots read Islam's founding documents without any doctrinal preconceptions they find that Islam is superior, non-Muslims are to be caused to be submissive, and they find a basis for violence. Such movements have been very common in numerous parts of the Islamic world, and flourish whenever they're allowed. The more you look to tradition that breaks with the texts, the more you find tolerance. E.g., Sufism, old-style Indonesian Islam.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
57. The treatment of women
is more cultural than religious.

But like the other major world religions, it's very hard to generalize -- their are Christians who insist on women's subjugation, there are Jews. And there are plenty for whom that idea makes no sense whatsoever in the context of their faith.

I think that if Islam is used to further peace and understanding and a better relationship with God, then it's a good thing. Where it's used for hate and dissension, it's not. And you could say the exact same thing about any religion you'd like to choose.
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