the concept of original sin and other foibles and follies

[ChairmanAgnostic]

Spent some time in the company of a bible-beating, inerrant bible guy, who was also a coworker and guest of a mutual friend. I suspect that my invite was directly related to my antipathy for evangelists, rigid christiban biblical constructionists, and those who believe the prayer can impact anything, including the result of a Notre Dame - SMU match. Let's just say that without fireworks, the audience was 'rapt' and interested.

He made the comment (he does not allow his wife to speak without permission - something that truly offended me) that we were all born with original sin. So I posed the following questions:

Is your god a perfect being and incapable of making mistakes?
- yes
Did your god create the entire universe?
-yes
Did your god create man in his image?
-yes
Did your god create man as a sexual creature?
-yes
How did your god forget to create Eve at the same time?
-silence
How could god forget the blueprints for Eve? why did he need to use stem cell technology from Adam's rib to create Eve?
-grinding of teeth
Did your god father a son named Jesus?
-yes, but. . . .
Who was his mother?
-silence
His heavenly mother. Who was she? Who created her? Did she see a heavenly OB/GYN? Did she need a spinal?
-more grinding of teeth
If man is created in god's image, then isn't man supposed to be perfect?
-no
Isn't original sin a flaw in god's creation?
-silence
Why did god create a flawed being with original sin?
- it is god's will.


The bible beater soon left, thinking that I am the spawn of the devil. I did detect a glimmer of a smile in the wifey's down-turned face when they left, though.

[bluemarkers]

1. next time

since there are two versions of creation, ask which one he believe in

or if the Bible is infallible, why are there two versions of creation, and three of the 10 commandments. (2 of those line up pretty well, but one is really off) and then why Jesus summed them up in 2? and why is the prophecy about destroying cities that reject the Word, not fulfilled? (Rome for example)

(oh and I consider myself a Christian) :)

[DeSwiss]

2. antifaschits, I wish I had been a fly on the wall for that one...

...I too went through a period of "discussions" with religious people for many years. I concluded in the end, that it was a waste of both our time. And it didn't help that none of them wanted to talk to me after the first encounter since I raised more questions than they had answers for.

Religious people -- pretty much all of them -- are like most of us. They're looking for the answer to the ONE and ONLY question that matters: why am I here? Some find peace and contentment in religion for themselves and thus are pretty harmless because they are rarely proselytizers. Others, (described by you above), are determined to save us from our "wicked ways" and want to convince us of their belief, primarily as a means to help convince themselves of it. There is security in the beliefs of the herd.

Ultimately any objective review and evaluation will show that the bible cannot stand up to even the mildest scrutiny. Not unbiased scientific scrutiny anyway. So I try to respect their beliefs and leave them alone, so long as they respect mine and do likewise. Including my own wife. I KNOW that she knows that there are flaws in the message because I've pointed them out to her. But she chooses to either overlook them or simply accept them and move on. And that's the way I see their beliefs, with elements of truth in them, but ultimately flawed -- and so I move on...

[pepperbear]

3. I'd have a whole lot more sympathy for his wife....

except she could you know, walk out at any time. HE might think it's 1606, but luckily it isn't.

Oh, and if there are kids, grab them too before any more poison spews forth.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

6. self-perpetuating hell

sad that so many have so much crap to unlearn.

[knowbody0]

4. IF God is all good and created ALL living things

it must have been in a different universe

[GeorgeGist]

5. If I were God...

I could trace your origins back to the beginning...before the big bang. Along the way, I have no doubt I'd find something or someone in your origins that was just plain wrong. It's not your fault that by all rights you shouldn't exist. But that's true of all of else.

[The Straight Story]

7. I'll try to answer that for you as best I can

The core of this comes back to how people view the term 'god'.

Compared to us god is far more powerful in ways we won't probably ever be (unless you count computer programs and Ai as creations and such).

And there there is this to go with it: I make a time machine, go back in time and know it could change the future. I meet our early ancestors who see me as a god, i tell them some serious shit will happen but don't give details cause I know they will change, but I do explain the path mankind is on given what I know about our species (or in the case of a coder with many variables I can tell the ai some things about it's future based on how I modeled it even if I cannot tell all the facts).

So let's go with this: god is not the all powerful thing we make him out to be, there are limitations - and those limitations, to me, were the basis/are the basis for the whole birth and ideal of christianity.

The short version: god made lucifer and the angels. Lucifer fell by rebelling against god. The outcome of which would be that someday lucifer would be destroyed. One thing lucifer knows about god is that he is pretty consistent (part of his physics if you will) so when god creates humans he suckers them into doing the same thing he did (albeit in a different manner) and therefore thinks he has won. Now god has to toast us as well. God, the first lawyer, argues that someone has to pay the price and die, he never said who had to though and mankind was not around as long, and had someone helping them.

So...he bruises the serpent's head (ego) and comes here himself as a human to suffer and die without ever having sinned or being fully human. Thus the scales of justice balance, we can avoid death (2nd death) and got a second chance.

Words have relational meanings. Related to us, god is all powerful, but god has his own rules and regulations he follows (and by he I am just using a simple convention cause I am lazy and don't want to type out spirit, etc and so on).

The ants may look at us and see us as all powerful and wonder why we aren't doing more ourselves - cause to them we are all gods, and why isn't our society perfect.

One could so far as, if they wished, to say the entire bible is an analogy or better a mirror into our own selves as a species. We bitch that a god so powerful could let so much evil go on and yet here we are with immense knowledge and power and yet we fuck each other over and bring misery to each other, and other species, time and again.

Before we judge and bitch about god, maybe we need to start a little further down with ourselves.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. good points to bend one's mind around.

with a galaxy so vast, so filled with stars, planets and the probability of life, the chances that we "humanity" is alone is laughable. More likely than not, any sentient beings, sophisticated, civilized and technologically superior, know better than to make contact with a supersticious, self-destructive, war-mongering, illogical and uncivilized group of irrational beings such as us. For one thing, the deeply religious would never survive the shock. So much of their pathetic lives are wasted in following foolish and backwards beliefs, that a simple dose of truth might be fatal.

[clark08]

9. To believe in orginal sin I have to look

no farther than my 2 year old son. He's selfish, and totally self0centered. I didn't teach him to be. He just smacked his 6 month or sister in the face for taking his ball. The flesh runs very deep.