Resurrecting an old thread to discus nontheism

[eridani]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=27905

The old topic was whether atheism defined itself in opposition to theism. The reason I'm throwing a new word in to the mix is to suggest actual disinterest in the question of the existence/non-existence of deities.

Similarly, there is a difference between illiterate and non-literate. The former is a judgment that people who can't read who live in societies where the skill is both common and a prerequisite for socioeconomic advancement, and the latter is merely descriptive, referring to entire societies in which no one is literate, and not being able to read is therefore not a disadvantage.

The world's three main non-theistic traditions are Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. In all three, spending time debating the existence or non-existence of a god or gods is considered to be a distraction from

a. living in harmony with the Tao (Taoism)
b. attaining enlightenment (Buddhism)
or c. working out the best ethical system for existing human communities (Confucianism)

Adherents of any of these traditions don't seem to turn up in any of the atheist threads, or any of the other threads for that matter.

[saltpoint]

1. It suggest to me that those three are more psychologically mature

traditions.

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. Do you mean "discuss" or...

... do you just want to grunt and throw plates at people? :hi:

I have no problem with the word "non-theism", as I think it describes me well. I really don't care about the existence or non-existence of deity/-ies; as far as I'm concerned, the issue is moot. Since (S)He/They don't intervene directly in human affairs, the question of existence (theism v. atheism) is irrelevant. I live my life as best I can, and that's that.

[eridani]

3. The particular spiritual traditions I described--

--often called religions, have much more to them than just regarding God-talk as irrelevant.

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. So you are not looking to talk about "nontheism" as a concept

And would rather talk about Buddhism, Taoism or Confucianism specifically?

(The joke about grunting and throwing plates was in reference to your use of the word discus in your subject line.)

[eridani]

8. They sure don't allow much time for editing here, do they?

I think that quite a few people calling themselves atheists would, like you, just rather let the question go and not make a big deal out of it. That would be non-theism. However, in a society of theists, it's much harder to forget about than if you were in a culture that was not so dominated. Hence the atheist position of arguing back.

[cosmik debris]

4. I suspect that a lot of atheists would agree with the

"actual disinterest in the question of the existence/non-existence of deities." In fact a lot of us wish the controversy would just go away. But god and religion are a major part of our culture. We can't out run it no matter how fast we run.

And I have to wonder out loud if the Taoists, Buddhists and Confucians aren't groups that arose out of the religious or theist world. Or maybe as a response to those worlds? Or an evolution from those worlds? I don't know. But if that is true, it would help explain why atheists are not usually in those groups.

[hyphenate]

5. While some might consider the three

eastern groups you mentioned as being religions, I would suggest that followers of them and many people around the world consider them more philosophies than religions. They count on their adherents to be making the best of their time on earth and are looking to another level of existence as being far superior in most cases to the time spent on earth. I know personally that I am an atheist as far as a "god" on the level of a Xtian god's existence, but I do support the possibility of another plane of existence which is not inconsistent with a metaphysical philosophy. In my own personal belief system, such things as reincarnation, a spiritual realm and a group unconsciousness are quite possible, and would explain much that we can not often explain here on earth.

The far East had a thriving civilization eons before the Western world, and their ideas on philosophy, religion and other such ethereal topics would be far more mature and far more likely to take in a closer observation of the forces of Nature and pure science as a result. I can't say that the government of China now is any great shakes as far as human rights are concerned, but at least in theory they were on the right track religiously at one time. My argument with China is more at issue with their stances on human and animal rights, and the communism which pervades every part of their country now.

[eridani]

7. Communism in China, IMO is partly Confucian and Taoist--

--but it borrows much more from the third tradition of legalism.

Philosophy and religion overlap when you ask the question "What is the point of it all?"

I know that Zen strongly discourages speculation on the nature of other planes of existence as well as the God/no God issue.

Student: Where does the enlightened man go after the illusion of death?
Master: How should I know?
Student: Because you are an enlightened man.
Master: That, maybe, but not a dead one.

[SPKrazy]

14. I Think We Are Living In A Time Of "Group Unconsciousness"

yes, I know you were referring to a collective unconscious (I think) but a group unconscious seems so appropriate for the * years

[catbert836]

9. Question

What exactly is the Tao? Does anyone know?

[eridani]

10. Where is the Tao?

In urine and excrement. Cleave the rock, and there am I.

[Sinti]

11. You have to find it for yourself

Coupla links:

http://classics.mit.edu/Lao/taote.html

http://www.chinapage.com/gnl.html

:)

[SPKrazy]

15. The Tao Is

in everything

the dance

[Sinti]

12. Taoism and Buddhism are not things to be spoken of, basically

Life is to be experienced. The goodness of the world does not come through talk - you can read, learn, and meditate, but it is your own experience and what you bring to it that matters.

Have you eaten? Wash your bowl...

When the teacher asked his students, "what is water" several were lacking for descriptions, and a few others feebly attempted to explain it's components. Then one seemingly insolent student stepped forward, picked up a jug and without a word threw the contents in his teacher's face... the teacher smiled, and dried himself off, the day's lesson now complete.

So those two groups wouldn't, I assume, discuss things in a forum.

Confucianism, isn't really religion, so it's not a good fit for this forum either methinks. :)

[lvx35]

13. Buddhism and Taoism are religions, saynig they are not theistic...

maybe missing the point. What I ask is does a system prescribe morality with a system of rewards and punishments in the hereafter? That sums of religion pretty well. Buddhism certainly has this via reincarnation, my understanding is that taoism does too, though differently, you achieve immortality through union with the tao.

[eridani]

18. I agree that they are religions--

--just pointing out that religions can be non-theistic.

[SPKrazy]

16. Confucianism Is Definitely A Philosophical Approach

Taoism is more concerned with the experience of life, and that which is in everything

Buddhism, depending on the school of thought, is either more philosophical, or more about experiencing the present-but not just philosophy.

[Odin2005]

17. Buddhism can be a religion or a philosphy depending on what form of...

Buddhism you are talking about. The "original" form of Buddism was a philosophy, Buddha himself was agnostic. When Buddhism entered NW India and Afganistan, which had Greek or Greek-influenced elites, the philosphy became influenced by Greek and Middle-Eastern religious traditions and thus became transformed into a religion by the addition of the concept of Bodhisattvas ("saints"), souls that refused the offer of Nirvana in order to help others reach it.