Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

A question.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:21 PM
Original message
A question.
Edited on Sun May-28-06 05:21 PM by beam me up scottie
What were christians called before Jesus Christ?

And are they still considered to be of the same faith as contemporary questions?






Okay, that was two questions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. They were called Jews. That's pretty simple.
Edited on Sun May-28-06 05:23 PM by Redstone
Given that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. It's all right there in the Bible.

Redstone
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. So they believe in the same god?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. At the beginning they did, yes.
Redstone
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
41. My Understanding Is That Yes We Believe In The Same God
as do Muslims

The difference being that Christians generally believe that Jesus was the Messiah that was prophesized about.

Jews don't believe that he was the Messiah, but they (as far as I know) do believe that he existed and was a teacher and was Jewish.

Personally, I think that one has to remember that all of the synoptic gospels were written with the post Easter lens (none were written prior to the crucifixion and resurrection) and were written several years after the fact.

Oral tradition, embellishment of the facts, and the fallacy of human memory are all factors in the early versions. Then of course through translations one has the problems that are encountered in the fact that the religion was used by the state to control it's inhabitants (Rome)

So back to the original question, yes, same God.

Muslims also believe Allah to be the same God.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Thanks.
:pals:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Che_Nuevara Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. Jews.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
I_Make_Mistakes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. You do know that Jesus Christ was a Jew, right? That is why the
Christian persecution of Jews was so incredibly misguided.

His teachings are to show where Man deviated from the Will of God, not to necessarily create a new belief system, kind of like, Martin Luther, Candi, Martin Luther King Jr., etc., except as a follower of Jesus Christ, I believe he was God's ultimate authority on the matter, the other's are just reiterating his (JC's) teachings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Now play nice.
I want to understand the history, not start a war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
I_Make_Mistakes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Oh, I really don't have a mean bone in my body, if it came of
wrong, I Make Mistakes, I really am sorry!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. No, you're fine.
I'm a little wary of arguments about this subject, that's all.

I realize that faith is part of who you are and I don't want anyone to feel defensive on my account.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. There were no christens before Christ. They were hebrews that followed
Christ, most of them thought he was going to lead a armed revolt against Rome.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. So anyone who believed that Jesus was the son of God
was a christian?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Jesus was a Jew
Paul (St. Paul) later, after Jesus' death, defined what we know as Christianity today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. So you don't believe Jesus is the son of God?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Nope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Okay.
I'm starting to understand why some christians think you guys are atheists.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. He didn't qualify as the Messiah....
he was not in direct lineage of King David, by his mother's or father's side.
Read all the "begat" verses in the beginning of Matthew. They just don't add up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
57. But in the reality of the time, Joseph was a descendant of David, and
Edited on Sun May-28-06 06:47 PM by BrklynLiberal
therefore, he WAS in the line of David.
Those who lived in the Pre-Paulian time did not consider Jesus to be the son of God.

And chances are, Mary was a descendant of David as well. Remember how many wives Solomon had?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. IT is debatable that Jesus saw himself as the son of God. He
was a charasmatic itinerant preacher, perhaps an Essene and someone who had a huge personal attraction for others both in personality and doctrines. Christians didn't exist until after him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Paul was the first evangelist, Peter was
the first Pope.
Paul later convinced Peter and James that his way was the right way...which I find contrary to Jesus' teachings. Paul took it upon himself to redefine Christianity, hence "Hell, fire and brimstone". He is also attributed with writing in a "scare tactic", "ye must conform" fashion. John wrote the Revelations that sealed the deal on doom and gloom for sinners....written while hiding out in a cave.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. So the hell fire and brimstone version of God
was a product of Paul?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Yes, he and John (not the Baptist).
Edited on Sun May-28-06 05:58 PM by Proud_Democratt
He changed the whole meaning......he was the first "Pat Robertson".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Now it's getting complicated.
Did the early christians all believe in Paul's God?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. To convert Gentiles, he dropped Jewish dietary laws and
circumcision. He told them all they had to do was repent. They could eat pork and weren't required to be circumsized.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. That was the deal maker?
Not trying to be smart, here, really.

It's just that some of the history is so complex while other parts of it seem so simple.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. He had to sell his ideas somehow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
62. Yes and the Paul your talking about isn't one of the disciples
Paul took the name after he was blinded by God for throwing Christens to the lions. His name was Saul when he was a Roman soldier. Saul was a real piece of work when he was a soldier, he took great delight in finding and hunting down Christens. Theologians have said that after Saul became Paul he got revenge on God by using the fire, brimstone, anti sex writtings found in his chapter of the bible. BTW, outside of Pauls writtings have you noticed that Christ spoke very little about the evils of sex? He told one adultress to sin no more and I have never seen anything written about Christ being anti gay.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. You are absolutely correct...
He is not the same Paul.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Paul was originally Saul of Tarsus,and underwent a conversion on the road
Edited on Sun May-28-06 06:03 PM by BrklynLiberal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. He was knocked off his ass!!!!!!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. Wow, thanks for the link.
This is fascinating.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
60. Thats not what I said, Hebrews is what Jews called themselves at
the time of christ. When the term Jewish came about isn't clear, but the old testament always called the jews Hebrews. If I remember correctly, Hebrews weren't called jews until the Spanish Inquisition. The hebrews then took the jewish name as a badge of honor having survived the Holocaust of the Inquisition. Its all rather confusing as everything written in the last 2000 years has been translated, obscured and thrown out through revisions or shake ups in church beliefs. A lot of changes came when Saul/Paul was introduced into the bible. Which is also when priests stopped being allowed marriage and sex became a deadly sin. Also it wasn't until after 100 years of Christs death did the term Christen start appearing in bible text, Christen is translated from Christ like, meaning the followers of Christ tried to emulate Christs teachings and behaviors. Some time in that period Christens learned turning the other cheek meant certain death and they started becoming more aggressive. Remember Christens would meekly allow themselves to be thrown to the lions in Rome. Could you see the christens of today doing the same thing?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pierogi_Pincher Donating Member (323 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Paul's exhortations were that it was good to NOT be married.......
but, it was better TO BE married than to be distracted by fleshly desires. Our priests still marry. The RC Church (Latin Rite) does not allow theirs. Just stating facts.

Yes, persecuted Christians went gladly to their demise. Today, not hardly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pierogi_Pincher Donating Member (323 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
64. Not initially..........
the earliest 'Christians' were appellaged (word?) followers of 'The Way'.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. Re no successful armed revolt by Israel against Rome
Edited on Sun May-28-06 06:03 PM by Boojatta
Is it possible that the Israelite prohibition against homosexuality had mutated into an intolerance of even suspected homosexuality along with a failure to apply legal rules of evidence and legal rules of jurisdiction? For example, if non-Jewish visitors to Israel were routinely killed based merely on accusations that the visitors were homosexuals, then might God have decided to punish Israel and to use the Romans (who were tolerant of homosexuality) as a tool for punishing Israel?

Contrast that with explanations of 9/11 that some preachers offered: "America has been too tolerant of homosexuality so God permitted the events of 9/11."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. Jews, ..then Jerusalem Church,..then Christians
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Thanks.
What came before them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Christianity was basically another Jewish sect until Paul
brought fear into it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. Christianity as a sect of Judaism?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Before Paul messed with it....there were Judeo-Christians..
that started the Jerusalem Church.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Even today..."Jews for Jesus" is that kind of
sect. Google jews for Jesus...you'll be surprised.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. But, I think the "Jews for Jesus" require acceptance of Jesus as the
Edited on Sun May-28-06 06:37 PM by BrklynLiberal
Messiah/Savior. When Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism, there was no such requirement. It was not until the teachings of Saul/Paul, and his Hellenization of Christianity along with the inclusion of some of the Mithra practices, that Jesus became anything more than the teacher/Rabbi/Rebel that he had been in ancient Jerusalem.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/jew_sect.htm


Unfortunately, following Jesus' death, Paul (the apostate Saul) started to preach a heresy -- that Jesus was a god to be worshipped, a thing Jesus NEVER asked for. In fact, Jesus would have been absolutely horrified at the thought of it. Paul also preached doing away with the Law -- quite the opposite of what Jesus preached. Paul had apparently never met Jesus.

Regretably, the Pauline tradition eventually held sway (perhaps partly as a consequence of the political and social upheavals of the period), and with the gospels being written anything from 60 - 200 or more years after the events, much hearsay and corruption crept into what was written. A close examination of the gospels actually shows up many direct contradictions (a strange thing for what is supposed to be "truth"). Since then, especially since the "Romanisation" of Pauline teaching, the world has a ghastly, terribly, perverted version of what Jesus was preaching. Actually, it is not recognisable as the same thing. Furthermore, it has assimilated numerous paganisms and pagan symbologies (e.g. virgin birth, mother and child, cult of Astarte, etc.), not the least of which is converting the Sabbath day from the seventh day of the week to the first day (Sunday) -- in honour of the pagan sun-god (Sol Invictus), and also -- deliberately -- directly to add further distance between the new religion and its parent Judaism. This was one of Roman Emperor Constantine's reforms.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Acknowledgement of Jesus being the Messiah
is required to be a "J for J".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. Interesting comment at bottom of article
These are the guys who sued Dan Brown claiming he used their work for his book, "The DaVinci Code". "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" was written in 1982. This article was written in 1999.


If you want to know more -- find and read "The Messianic Legacy" (0 552 13182 2) by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh & Henry Lincoln. There is much about this topic in the first section of the book (and a few other surprises in the second section). Their previous book was "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. That's actually a profound question
The obvious answer is Jews, of course. But since Christianity claims to spread the word of God to all of humanity, not all Christians are descendants of Jews. Certainly not in the New World.

I don't know.

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. I've asked this question before,
just not on DU.

I'm hoping DUers can explain it without bias.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. ...and in some cases, Pagans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Yep...
Christianity was probably more interesting to pagans than to Jews.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pierogi_Pincher Donating Member (323 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
66. The Syro-Phoenician woman at the well was, IIRC, one of the first
Edited on Mon May-29-06 03:38 PM by Pierogi_Pincher
who 'embraced' Jesus in acknowleging Who He was (in addition to the thief on the cross who acknowledged Him). He may have been more readily accepted by Gentiles and Pagans, but, as someone else posted, Jews came into the fold in numbers also.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. If you use the New Testament as history...
sure. But perhaps the historical Jesus was totally different from the Bible and a strict Jew who followed the Torah. Perhaps he was a compilation of two or three historical figures mashed into one? Who knows?

Regardless, there are theories that some Jews at the time of Jesus thought he was the Jewish messiah (the Jewish concept of messiah and not the supernatural messiah son of God as created by Christians) but there are many historical figures besides Jesus who were thought to be the messiah. Bar Kokhba who lived one hundred years later, and fit more of the attributes of the Jewish messiah, was one of the figures who people thought was a messiah and failed to deliver the messianic story.

The gospels which were written years after Jesus' death created this semi-pagan religion with Jesus as their poster child.

If Jesus had any followers when he was alive, they were not Christians. Probably Jews who follow the Torah but thought Jesus was the Jewish messiah just like Jews thought Bar Kokhba was the messiah. The Pauline version of Jesus, which came years later, became the base of the Christian religion. The first followers of that religion were the first Christians. But this happened many years after death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Now that I didn't know.
Same God, or different?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hashibabba Donating Member (894 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Jews were interested
in Jesus. The Bible says thousands were added to their rolls DAILY!

And yes, definitely the same God between Christians and Jews. People who are presently Jewish believe that Jesus wasn't the Messiah.

And yes, Christians today are supposed to be like the early church. Including the fact that Paul scholded them for their various shortcomings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Thank you very much.
And welcome to DU, hashibabba! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hashibabba Donating Member (894 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Thanks scottie!
I appreciate the welcome!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
I_Make_Mistakes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Some day, when I have time, I really want to study Paul (Saul).
I can not grasp his conversion and repetition of the same old OT stuff. I guess what I am trying to say is, is Paul, the good, bad or the ugly. I feel in many ways, he refutes the teachings of JC.

He certainly came about way later than the other's and actually was present, if not participated actively in the persecution of the early Christians.

I think Paul is held in such regard, because he advocated for the inclusion of Gentiles into the fold.

He is the one, whose writings, I take with a grain of salt, when they contrast the Gospels.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Che_Nuevara Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Paul is a very interesting character.
He is seen as supporting marriage for priests and female priests, and is the author of the statement "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law." He also comes down very hard against homosexuality and women who do not wear scarves to cover their heads.

The general scholarly opinion is that Paul's less accepting attitudes can be understood by placing them in firm contrast to Roman practice and custom. After his conversion Paul was a dissenter and a revolutionary, and thought that the lines between Rome and Christianity needed to be firmly drawn. Anyone who accepted Jesus as savior was fine; anyone who accepted the authority of Caesar was the enemy. As homosexuality was perfectly acceptable (indeed, almost the norm) in Roman society, it was one point he stressed very hard.

One can hardly blame Saul/Paul for not being at Jesus' crucifixion. I mean, if he wasn't there, he wasn't there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. Very much the same God
In fact, a lot of the anti-Semitic remarks from the Gospel of St. John ("for fear of the Jews") are there because that Gospel was written after the Jews who followed Jesus were thrown out of the synagogues. The Gospel of St. John preserves (unfortunately) the bitter feelings of a family feud. The redeeming element is that it should teach all Christians humility that we let such expressions parade through one of our most sacred books!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. So it was an either/or proposition.
They couldn't be both so they were kicked out?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
30. I can't work out what you're asking here
"And are they still considered to be of the same faith as contemporary questions?"

Huh?

There was a tussle in the early church over whether non-Jews could become Christians. Paul said they could; others, led by Peter, said, at first, they couldn't. Paul won the argument. So there probably were some non-Jews who became Christians who were alive before Jesus started preaching, and maybe before he was born. I don't think anyone recorded what their beliefs were - maybe Greek Platonistic, since they were in the largely Greek-influenced area to the north of Judaea. They'd seem more likely to convert to Christianity than polytheists worshipping the standard Greek gods. It's possible there might be Zoroastrian influence there, or Mithras (which may or may not be derived from Zoroastrianism).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Saul of Tarsus, Mithraic Cults, and Christ's Blood
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. The ingredients of organized Christianity. ....
a hybrid religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
59. Peter was originally against Gentiles being Christians but
he had a vision of God telling him to eat "unclean" animals. When he refused, saying that he had never eaten any forbidden food, God told him "Do not call unclean what I have made clean."

Shortly after, he was asked to baptise some Gentiles, and where he would have refused before, he now agreed to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
61. argh
Edited on Sun May-28-06 08:24 PM by beam me up scottie
I just saw your post.

It was a typo, I must have misspelled "christians" and didn't notice that spell check replaced it with "questions". :blush:

:dunce:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Che_Nuevara Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
37. Okay, because I can see that our wheels are spinning in the mud,
Edited on Sun May-28-06 06:14 PM by Che_Nuevara
let me give you the long version, as someone who has studied the subject, both historically and religiously.


The Jewish people consisted of 12 tribes, supposedly descended from the twelve sons of Jacob. Their religion was based on a number of texts including the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and later, the Maccabees texts, the stories of the Judges, the prophecies of Isaiah and Daniel, and others.

Genesis describes the creation of the world; Exodus and Leviticus tells the story of the foundation of the nation of Israel. At this time, the Israelite nation, or people, is identical with the religion of Judaism. Maccabees, Judges, and the like tell the stories of important Israelites/Jews during this time period.

Then come the prophecies, which more or less state the following things:
1) The Messaiah (translation: Annointed One of God) will come to Earth.
2) The Messaiah will deliver the chosen ones of God to Paradise.
3) The enemies of the chosen ones of God will be vanquished.

Many people at the time claimed to be the Son of God. (Hectaeus the Circle Drawer, for example, lived at about the same time as Jesus of Nazareth, and claimed to be the Son of God. It never really caught on.)

Jesus of Nazareth may or may not have claimed to be the Son of God. We do know that he was a rabbi (Hebrew for 'teacher'), and we do know that he had a considerable following. He caught the attention of the Romans, who thought he would start a rebellion (Judeah at the time belonged to the Roman Empire), and of the Jewish High Priests, who were deep in the pockets of the Romans. Neither segment liked his radical messages of "Love is more important than following the law, both secular and religious" and wheeled and dealed until Jesus was executed by popular demand.

Here's where the split happens: many post-Jesus Jews accepted Jesus of Nazareth as a prophet of their God. A small segment believed that he was in fact the Messaiah that they were waiting for. Among these were the authors of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

That's where it starts being simple. According to Matthew's text, the sacrifice of Jesus will rescue the Israelites and give an everlasting life to the nation of Israel. But according to Luke's text, the sacrifice of Jesus will create an everlasting life which will replace the nation of Israel, which was no longer relevant. John is silent on the issue of Judaism almost entirely, and instead says that the sacrifice of Jesus was for the world and all its inhabitants.

Most religions since then which we call Christians believe three basic things:
1) Jesus of Nazareth was the Messaiah.
2) Jesus of Nazareth was God made flesh.
3) Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God.
But note that the Antitrinitarians (and later Unitarians) #s 2 and 3, but are still considered Christians, because they accepted deliverance through the teachings of Jesus.

Most Christian religions also believe that the God spoken of in the so-called "New Testament" (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, the epistles, the Revelation to John) is the same as the God of the so-called "Old Testament" (the aforementioned Jewish texts). However, due to a number of allegend inconsistencies, a few sects (most notably a number of Gnostic sects) actually believe that the Old Testament God was 'replaced' by the New Testament God. These sects are, for all intents and purposes, no longer existant today except on a very theoretical level.


I think that's all there is to say, but beware of an edit if I think of more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Much obliged.
This is kind of what I was looking for.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Che_Nuevara Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. My pleasure.
Early Christian history is something that confuses most people, including many Christians and many Jews. If you really want to learn a lot about it, I would suggest seeing if your local college/university offers courses on the subject.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. That is why I thought it would be a good idea to ask DUers for help.
DU is like a crash course in humanity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat Aug 23rd 2014, 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC