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Seems like Jesus actually committed suicide.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 07:58 AM
Original message
Seems like Jesus actually committed suicide.
If Jesus asked Judas to betray him, as this new Judas gospel indicates, doesn't that mean Jesus basically committed suicide?

I have been following the story of the revelation of the Gospel of Judas quite closely. Now, before anyone jumps into the thread here to say, "This is fiction talking about fiction," let me say that I have no interest in getting into a debate over whether Christianity is valid or if the stuff in the Gospels actually happened.

My take on this is sociological. One cannot deny the impact of Christianity on world history, and on our current political climate. I'd argue that Christianity has been perverted by the Taliban wing of the religion; every faith has such a wing, and lately, it seems those wings have come to enjoy frightening prominence. Again, however, this is a debate for another time.

But consider this: according to this newly revealed gospel, Jesus asked Judas to betray him so Jesus could leave the physical realm and return to the spiritual realm. This turns on its head the old convention that Judas was a scumbag betrayer, and that Jesus was murdered. Jesus wanted to die, it seems, and went to a trusted friend to help him find that desired death.

Isn't that suicide by any definition?

If true, what does that say about the Schiavo maniacs and the right-to-lifers? If the Savior chose to opt out of life on his own timetable, and went to a friend to accomplish this, the whole moral geometry of this issue is turned on its head.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. I guess it's a good thing they didn't have cameras back then
because then we could say that the crucification was nothing more then an elaborate photo op?

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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. Suicide by Disciple.
:hide:
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
42. Good one!
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liberaliraqvet26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. wouldn't u end it if ur supporters were wacko's like falwell and delay
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hholli11 Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. betray...a lot gets lost in translation...
it seems that back in those days the word for 'hand over' and 'betray' were pretty much the same. Since there was no police force to speak of, it fell upon the Treasurer to negotiate 'handing over' someone the authorities (read the tyrant du jour) was interested in because said authorotoes paid the 'hander-over' a stipend for doing so.

Judas thought he was fascilitating a great debate to happen within his temple about the path of his faith. It was not until after Jesus was seized that Judas found out they were going to crucify him. That is when Judas threw the money back and killed himself.

Also, Mary Magdeline was NOT a whore. :)
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. Suicide by police that is. But I refer you to the Passover Plot
for really interesting fiction.

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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
96. Thank you...
I was going crazy yesterday trying to remember the name of this book which I read years ago. Very, very thought-provoking novel.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
6. a martyr complex? a political statement most extreme ?
seems to be a reoccurring theme in the Mid East.

If Jesus was indeed an incarnation of God, then it should stand to reason that he would "know" his path and his destiny. If he had such mystical powers he would know he had a traitor in his midst.

It's only logical, by that thinking, that he asked to be "betrayed" and it does knock a huge hole in the Christian dogmatism of "No Suicide" doesn't it?

:shrug:

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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
71. How can Peter and Judas both deserve words of condemnation?
If Jesus was indeed an incarnation of God, then it should stand to reason that he would "know" his path and his destiny.

Here he is explaining the plan and saying "Get behind me, Satan!" to a disciple who opposed the plan:

Matthew 16
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22 Peter rebuked Jesus. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
23 Jesus said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

...it does knock a huge hole in the Christian dogmatism of "No Suicide" doesn't it?

I recall reading that early Christianity encouraged suicide, that there were lots of suicides, and that later Christianity responded by officially condemning suicide.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #71
78. well, there you go then! thanks n/t
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #71
129. The Gnostics were the suicide bunch.....
they wanted to hasten their spiritual journey. Or so they say. :shrug:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. Jesus is God. He could have destroyed Rome, the Jews, the earth
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 08:09 AM by mdmc
He chose to die for our sins. He chose to link his divinity to his humanity. Jesus could have stopped his own execution at any time. God could have ended the world at any time.

The crucification connected humanity with divinity. Suicide generally implies an escape from this world, escape in order to avoid the stresses of this life. I do not think that is what happened.

Just like the first soldier to charge out of a fox hole on orders, I feel like Jesus was a soldier of God. The soldiers mission may be viewed as "suicidal", but I do not think that it warrants this description.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. "Suicide generally implies an escape from this world"
But that does sound like what happened here.

"The most revealing passages in the Judas manuscript begins, "The secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot during a week, three days before he celebrated Passover."

The account goes on to relate that Jesus refers to the other disciples, telling Judas "you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me." By that, scholars familiar with Gnostic thinking said, Jesus meant that by helping him get rid of his physical flesh, Judas will act to liberate the true spiritual self or divine being within Jesus."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/06/science/06cnd-judas.h...
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. yup
Jesus asked God for a pass in the Garden, and God said, "No dice. Go bleed for me." God and Jesus worked this all out prior to the last supper. Jesus was always a willing participant in the crucification. Judas was a disciple, he was not a traitor. Jesus knew all along what Judas was going to do. It was all part of the divine plan.

God sacrificed himself for us. Since God never had to suffer, I think this is HUGH111. Judas' role is secondary, just like the jews and P. Pilot. This was God's plan; no man could stop it from happenin. Not even Jesus.

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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. after reflecting, I guess you are right
God decided to die for our sins. I guess you would be correct to call this suicide. Is there an official term for when God kills hims self (I know that there is a term that describes killing God - folks accuse the jews of this sometimes).
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. "Is there an official term for when God kills hims self ?"
Deisuicide? :shrug:

I think I just coined this word myself, but I'm pretty sure this is what it would be. The term for killing a God is deicide.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. that is what I was looking for and I will credit you with the creation
of that term, if no one else has claimed credit.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
64. couldn't mere imprisonment be a 'sacrifice of the man'?
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 10:15 AM by bigtree
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
94. But then you have to assume that everything that Judas said was true
why would anyone assume that? (And you would have to assume that he even wrote it anyway.)

...or that everything that anyone else who wrote accounts was true - and I expect they contradict each other - so how do you assume any sort of thing about it?

I don't.

But go ahead and believe whatever you want.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #94
108. Exactly
Just because this is called the Gospel of Judas doesn't mean that Judas wrote it or that it has the same authenticity as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. None of these Gospels are meant as blow by blow factual accounts similar to a newspaper story. They are a means for these four communities to hand on their experience of the faith. The Gnostic Gospels were examined and discarded as not representing the teachings of Jesus Christ.

In my experience, the four canonical Gospels emphasize the Great Commandment. Sooner or later, every discussion of the Gnostic Gospels comes around to a secret shared only with a few that allows one to be like God. Which sounds more like Jesus Christ to you?
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
101. Blood for Blood
It is to fullfill 'the law'. He, Himself said that He didn't come to overthrow the Law, but to fullfill the Law. God became the 'sacrificial' lamb, described when Abraham was to 'sacrifice' his son Isaac. Only then, God provided a wild lamb for that 'sacrifice'.

This time, He provided His own self, as the sacrificial lamb. And with this sacrifice He fullfilled His own law, of Blood for Blood. Thus releasing humanity of that law.

Think of it, as Divine Justice. The scales of justice became balanced, for all time, with His own sacrifice of Himself. The symbol of justice is a balancing scale.

It's part of the plan, of atonement for humanity. A release for all sin. A gift.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
68. If that's all true Jesus could have done it without a crucifixion.
The soldier on a mission is not suicidal because he had no better alternative.

An omnipotent god would have other choices.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #68
97. but then God would not have suffered the death that all humans
experience
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #97
102. So what? Who made up the rule that that had to happen?
Who made up the rule that anyone has to die anyway?

If Jesus is God he can do anything and isn't limited by the choices humans face.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #102
123. death is a great mystery
God gave himself up to show us that, in effect, it is all good. Yeah, we all die, but it is okay. This life is not real, everlasting.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #102
142. But Jesus is human as well
He was a man and had to die as a man. That's central to the story.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. re-enacting an "ancient mystery"
ancient Christianity was a mushroom cult. The mystery they re-enacted involved harvesting the mushroom (by cutting it in the side) so that it died--only to resurrect itself after a few days and sprout again. The mushroom, in their parlance, was god. Jesus wanted to become the mushroom. He wanted to become God. He wanted to "die" (many of the mushroom-takers fell into a deep comalike state from which they could not be awakened; sometimes literally buried as part of the ritual) so he could be "reborn."

My interpretation is that there was no human Jesus in the story. Just a mushroom cult looking to spread its holy nystical message through fable and poetry. Jesus and Judas are characters in the story, which is metaphorical, not historical, in nature.

John Allegro, translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls wrote about this in "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross." Check it out sometime.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
9. Those brittle parchments date back to when parts of the Bible were written
1700 years. So Christian suicide will be ok if this new evidence is accepted? Maybe they will quit killing the rest of us instead? One can hope.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
98. A Third Temple is unnecessary, yet some form of sacrifice would continue
if it were to be rebuilt. As the 'lamb of God', no further sacrificial system is necessary and salvation is God's free gift to any who accept the offer.

BTW Judas was operating under the impression that Jesus would not seek to make himself a king of this world, which seems to be what sets him off on dealing with those who controlled the Temple and the Roman authority civil system. The way to off Jesus was to force him into speaking about the Temple. This Jesus did, in indirect fashion, but done nonetheless.

Micah 6 : 7 puts things in a better context. What DOES God want ?
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
11. The "pro-lifers" will not accept any new gospel. For them...
the one and only Bible is complete.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
39. They certainly won't like that Adam is refered to as a lifeless vessel
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 09:26 AM by kikiek
since he had taken form like an aborted fetus, with no spirit in him.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
46. They don't know their own history
The "four" gospels are actually only four of a couple dozen, which were fought over- even by street gangs- before King James picked the ones he liked the most.

Got that from some biblical history program I saw recently on the Discovery channel. Could be wrong, I don't now; knowing even some of the bible's history, however, leads me to feel that may be the truth.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #46
59. I've read Elaine Pagels' books. She's done a lot of work on this. nt
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ptolle Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #59
91. or
Elaine Pagel or/and Karen Armstrong- the so-called "runaway nun" excellent works on the history of religion. Either/both will give you lots to think about and a good perspective from which to consider the questions.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
110. Are you certain you didn't fall asleep during a commercial?
I shouldn't tease, but I believe your history is a little garbled.
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
12. Organized religion has so twisted and corrupted the word of
Jesus, that I no longer pay attention to anything proposed by any religion.

Yes, I'm a Christian and I think Jesus must be appalled by what has been done to his name.

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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
13. The Last Supper by Michelangelo


I forgot who wrote this story, but I once read it and I hope I can accurately recall it from memory.

Michelangelo was asked to paint the last supper and at first he was doing fine, but there were two faces for whom he needed a model: Jesus and Judas. The first one was Jesus and he kept on asking himself who would be a good model to use for the face of Jesus, because Michelangelo didn't want the traditional face but the face a good person. So he walked the streets of Rome but he couldn't find anybody.

One Sunday he saw a boy in the choir and he thought that his face would be perfect for it, so he asked the boy to be the model for the face of Jesus. After he painted Jesus he set out to make the rest of the painting, but he still didn't have a face for Judas. One year passed and the painting was still unfinished, but the Vatican didn't care that much. The second year the bishop started to complain that they needed the painting, but Michelangelo couldn't find a face which was perfect for Judas.

It was already three years since he was commissioned to make the painting and the bishop was getting irritated with Michelangelo waiting that long to finish the painting and he order Michelangelo to find a model for Judas.

So Michelangelo was back in the streets of Rome trying to find an evil face. Somebody who was disenchanted with life and there he found a man in the gutter who was still young, but he was drunk and his face was evil looking, so he transported the boy to the Vatican and started to paint Judas.

The drunk started to wake up and he said: "What am I doing here? Who are you people?" and he looked at the painting and said: "Hey, I've seen that painting a couple of years ago. Things where still great back then and somebody asked me to be the model for the face of Jesus."
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Correction... That's the Last Supper by DaVinci, not Michelangelo.
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Replace Michelango with Da Vinci then
That's the problem of recaling a story from memory...
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
116. DaVinci must be screaming in his grave! He and Michaelangelo were
rivals and DaVinci reportedly loathed the younger Michaelangelo. There are stories about DaVinci trying to sabatage Michaelangelo's career along the way... }(
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KyuzoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
51. Snopes says this is false.
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. LOL. Of course it's false. It's a fictional story ;)
It is funny that snopes has a whole story about that fictional joke...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
14. No.
No more than King or Malcolm or Gandhi.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
47. But if the Judas account is true,
Jesus asked his disciple to betray him. As far as we know, neither King, Malcolm, not Ghandi asked their friends to assist in their deaths. (And to suggest so would be to support the crazy claims along the lines of "Jesse Jackson killed Martin!") That's the central difference in comparing the Gospel of Judas to those 20th century examples, imo.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
126. You are right on one thing ....
what is being suggested supports crazy claims .... though your Jesse example seems original thinking.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
73. It's not suicide knowing you are to be martyred for your speech
It's also not deniable that all those who chose to allow themselves to be sacrificed for the betterment of mankind were giving the gift of their life for their cause. It can never be said that Jesus was not aware that he was to be martyred. It can never be said that MLK was not aware of his impending fate. They both said as much before the fact. This 'asked' "revelation" is meaningless unless the manner in which Jesus was complicit in his own martyrdom is important to you. It has no meaning to me - I know that anybody who is/was truly a great person would realize their situation and succumb to it in a most dignified manner.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
89. Knowing you MIGHT be killed is different than planning your own death.
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AwakeAtLast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
15. And can Dr. Kevorkian now be considered a saint?
:shrug:

The one word that usually gets left out of any discussion like this is compassion. Judas would have had to have had enormous
compassion for Jesus to knowingly betray him and then watching the consequences.
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
18. I think "suicide" is too strong a word
Jesus believed that he could only fulfill prophecy through dying. No death, no resurrection. In my opinion, that's a more accurate interpretation of the story. Jesus wasn't martyred; he went willingly. So the Judas gospel actually backs that up.

Call it suicide if you will, but I think Jesus was doing what he believed he was supposed to do.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. I like your take on this, Will.
It seems to me that even if Jesus did not call upon Judas to "hand him over," which I tend to think he did, there's a pretty good case to be made that Jesus "committed suicide" anyway simply by riding that burro into Jerusalem on what we now celebrate as Palm Sunday!

After all, the Romans were persecuting and crucifying locals right and left already, and especially any who were being called prophets by the Jews -- or their leaders if they didn't behave as properly traitorous sellouts of their own people (which made them the hypocrites Jesus accused them of being). Kowtow to Rome and/or Jewish leaders such as Herod or the Sanhedrin or be beheaded or hung on a cross, it's up to you!

Jesus was warned by many not to go into Jerusalem and surely he was wise enough to know what would happen to him if he did. That alone meets the criteria for "assisted suicide" or "suicide by cop" in my book.

I haven't followed the new Judas "gospel" story closely yet but I think I'll look into it now. The reappraisal of various religions' mythologies these days is a topic of interest to me -- especially with all the "Taliban-branches" of many being exposed for what they really are.


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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
20. No, God had his own son wacked.
Its even stranger than fiction
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
21. Either that or the Judases hired a good PR firm. (n/t)
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
22. Here's a link to the translation of the Gospel of Judas
in case anyone is interested.

http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/_pdf/Gosp...

It really doesn't say much about what Jesus told Judas to do. Seems we are reading a lot more into it then is really there, while at the same time ignoring what it actually does say.

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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
24. Edited because I've had no coffee. Your post 10 I believe is a
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 08:54 AM by helderheid
very good theory.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
25. I'm normally a fan of your writing, Will, but
I'm not a fan of cutsie provocative titles or headlines. Hasn't God's willingness to sacrifice himself for humanity always been a central tenet of Christianity? Calling it suicide is just plain silly. There's a difference between a willingness to die for others and suicide.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. And isn't the beginning of Holy Week an especially good time
for this sort of thing?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. See post 10
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. In an unintended way
the OP does a wonderful imitation of the confusion that the gospels -- the four in the bible as well as those called "gnostic" -- show Peter as having as they were preparing to enter the city. It's the confusion that always results from mixing the teachings of higher levels with lower understanding.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
37. God's willingness to to sacrifice himself has been central to
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 09:40 AM by intheflow
Christianity as it came down from official channels, but that's exactly the point. The gnostic gospels were banned from the canon because they were considered dangerous teachings by those who worked to get one message, and one message only, as the official message of Christianity. In fact, it's always amazed me that the Protestant Reformation sought to differentiate and distance itself from Catholicism, while it still clung so firmly to Catholic doctrine and theology in so many ways.

I sort of like Will's interpretation of "Judas as Kevorkian." I'm sure many, many people who consider and go through with assisted suicide do it out of a "willingness to die for others." That is, they're considering the toll a long, drawn-out death will take on their family's psyche and finances.

Besides, the theology of redemptive suffering is not necessarily a healthy theology. I don't see any particular reason to embrace it wholeheartedly without reflection. This post is an opportunity to deepen faith by reflection, not a cause to perpetuate what may be unhealthy theology without reflection.

In this minister's opinion, of course. O8)



*Edited to fix link.



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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #37
80. Thank you for that, intheflow
I read the article and the excerpt from one of the authors and it was truely beautiful to me. :cry:

It brought out into the light something that I have thought about for a long time, but couldn't quite verbalize: the idea that suffering, in and of itself, is good. That is concept, I believe that as Grover Norquist says needs to be "strangled in the bath."

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Rosco T. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
85. Would this be the earliest incident of "Suicide by Cop"?? n/m
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
26. Did he not ask his father to remove this burden
from him? That to me would imply he was not complicit in his own death..
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
31. So let me see if I understand this correctly...
They found a scroll called the Book of Judas which tells the story according to Judas? And people are surprised that Judas said that Jesus made him do it?

I wouldn't be surprised if Judas claimed to hear all kinds of voices in his head. But, I suppose that wouldn't be out of order for scriptures.

Getting to the point, I wouldn't be surprised if Judas even believed that Jesus asked him to turn Jesus in, but I would also surmise that Judas was rationalizing some severe guilt. Afterall, didn't Judas end his life because he couldn't live with the shame? And if so, that didn't leave him much time to pass his story on to someone.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #31
83. yes, when the hell did he have the time to write his Gospel?
He hung himself before Jesus died on the cross! At least according to the other Gospels.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #83
90. Now, you see, there's the flaw in the ointment.
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 11:52 AM by The Backlash Cometh
Bible chapters are called the Truth and we're suppose to believe that this Truth, if not written by the disciples, was handed down through the ages, word for word.

We can't even get witnesses to properly identify events of a crime, yet we're expected to believe that everything happened as it's claimed to have happened in the Bible.

I am, by the way, a Christian. One who believes that God is up there rolling his eyes in utter disbelief at how so many of his believers could screw up something so simple and good.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. I am a Catholic
and I just listened to the Palm Sunday gospel according to Mark. He clearly states after Judas gave the silver back he went and hung himself in shame. :shrug:

I think it is very important to contrast certain events like Jesus' last moments in each of the Gospels. It is interesting to see the ways in which they differ.

I pray for the end of the madness in this country each week. Not too long ago I came to the conclusion that we may indeed be seeing the endtimes. :(
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #92
137. I agree - Judas's shame kills that Gnostic revision - no assisted suicide
:-)
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
88. Too bad we don't have a...
Book of Jesus to set the record straight. But apparently, it never occured to him to record his story.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
32. That is what I think too. Reminds me in the modern day of the person
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 09:50 AM by kikiek
who uses the police to kill them self. Grabs a weapon and threatens them until they are forced to shoot. My husband didn't care for my analogy. He also refused my offer of my copy of the Gnostic Bible to look at. It is very threatening to some. Just another example of if some new evidence contradicts what I believe I don't want to hear it or see it. No wonder the world is so screwed up.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
33. Yep. And this will be devastating to the 'God does not lie' crowd.
Didn't Jesus supposedly say that he would be betrayed? If thats the case he lied. Kind of throws the whole thing into doubt (if Jesus actually existed).
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
36. Not if he thought he was going to survive.
And then return to fight.

A strange aside might include an old book which suggested there was a potion which simulated death. This could have been tried on Lazarus, who rose from that era's meaning of death. Seeing that it worked, a gambit to die and return would not be suicide. A final drink while on the cross had dust dirt and other minute elements that would not be listed as too small to recount as might a potion be a small unmentionable addition. There'd be a lot to sleep off. Just an imaginary aside.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
38. Good one, Will.
See post #37 for my take on this, including a link to an article challenging the theology of redemptive suffering. K&R.
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standup Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
40. assisted suicide
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #40
67. Beat me to it. I was going to write "assisted suicide". Welcome

Welcome to DU!

Obligatory waving smiley:

:hi:
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
41. More like suicide by cop
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 09:26 AM by undeterred
He provoked his own death by a member of his own inner circle.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Jesus was a Democrat.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
43. Unless, of course, he didn't die at that time.
:tinfoilhat: Dateline NBC had a report last week of a researcher who believes Jesus was near death and passed out when he was taken down from the cross, and that he survived and moved on after this. Said the Catholic Churchis in possession of a document revealing that Jesus was alive many years later in another area, but they were hiding the document. Said there were several clues, all of which have been refuted by the Catholic Church and other protestant theologians, such as Dr. Elaine Pagels.

It was an interesting report. Can't say that I believe it or disbelieve it. I was surprised NBC/GE hq weren't fire-bombed by religious radicals after it.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #43
111. Which is kind of refuted by the Gospel of John
It describes the centurion stabbing Jesus through the heart and states that blood and water flowed from the wound.

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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #43
130. What sort of evidence did they have to support the claims?
I love how fictional stories bring about more fictional stories.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
44. Suicide and Catholic Church History
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 09:52 AM by Crisco
My understanding of the anti-suicide doctrine/dogma came about in the early centuries because the church couldn't afford to allow itself to be internally defeated by suicidal martyrs. ie, if everyone died for Jesus, who was going to be around to help convert the masses?

If you look into the heresies of the gnostics and their offshoots, particularly the Albigensians / Cathars, the theme of rejecting the material world is there. The material world was not created by God god, to them. The material world was created by a lesser god, to enslave us. They were massacred in the 1200s, by the way.

I spent enough time at St. Alphonsus and had enough beat into my head that suicide just isn't in the cards for me. But I can't condemn another who finds the suffering too unbearable, I can only hope they don't pull others down with them.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
45. first you have to prove..
.. that there -was- a Jesus as described in all those gospels written
many years after his purported existence, by gospelers who were
mostly Greek.

Gimme a big fuckin break!
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
48. You are reading it all wrong
The reporting of this has been woeful. Here is my take (not a religious scholar by any means>>> ;)

The Gospel of Judas seems to be a gnostic gospel. There have been other gnostic gospels out there for a long time. Gnostics do not and did not believe the same things as mainline Christians.

Gnostics believed in the corruption of the flesh - we are sinful meat sacks that contain our pure souls. Therefore anything that happens to the flesh that is pleasurable is sinful and a trick of the devil. We must harm our flesh, flagellate, fast, abstain from sex and be pacifist.

There is a temptation to say "aha! This proves that there has been a centuries long conspiracy that the taliban wing of Christianity (actually we would be talking about the Catholic Church) that suppressed the truth for so long." But would you really want to be a gnostic? It sounds like a formula for extermination. I like food. I like sex. And if one is a pacifist with Romans out there one's family would end.

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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #48
77. I have never read anything that describes Gnosticism as you have. The main
belief is that the way to god is within you. It is about personal enlightenment puts you on the path to god. This threatened the other Christian churches because they weren't needed then. Constantine ordered the destruction of the gnostic gospels. Some gnostic Christians hid and saved some. Also the old and new testament don't leave much room for fun either and are quite violent. Certainly little respect or rights for women and children. Obviously Christians don't all interpret the bible in the same way, and not much from that time period pertains any longer. There were, and still remain, many political reasons for the bible interpretations. I don't believe either are needed to be good and loving to others.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
49. Death in the name of religion? You mean that the chrisiban will
attack non-believers with SUV bombs?
I can see it now. The attack of the christian soccer moms.

Good questions, though. The problem for the christians is despite their best efforts to assassinate, destroy, erase, murder, torture, imprison, burn, mangle mutilate and silence the Gnostics, some of their stuff managed to survive. Council of trent, Council of Nicea, and other sectarian battlegrounds did not suceed. Now, they have to explain away why most of their stories were wrong.

Add to this the growing agreement that the virgin mary was no virgin, simply young, (a translation problem, common with other problems and weirdness in their instruction manual) and you have factual proof that the fundemental bases of their whole fairy tale is wrong.

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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. It's not a problem for this Christian....because I don't make those
kinds of efforts. :shrug: :hi:
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
50. Ask Richard Bach.
he seems to have this opinion already; which I agree with. (I mean he has it in a fictional way; the concept of asking a friend to help you return to the spirit/move on)
e.g. has anyone read Illusions?
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #50
115. I did, read it long ago, and I'll admit I read it again several years
later! I really liked that book and it made me THINK, which is always good, I believe.

Illusions seemed a perfect follow-up to Jonathan Livingston Seagull. A lot of the ideas from both of them have stuck with me throughout my life (and I'm 56 now).

I also read a third one of Bach's -- don't recall the title but it was about his relationship with and love for his wife, the "one" meant for him. Had to do with how the two became one in a very real sense ... I wonder if they still are?

What did you think of Illusions and Bach's other writings if you read others too?


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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
54. I've always thought it was along those lines anyway
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 09:57 AM by EstimatedProphet
The Bible (New International Version)

Luke 22
1Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.

John 13
21After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me."

22His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. 23One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. 24Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, "Ask him which one he means."

25Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?"

26Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.


There are a couple more passages like this that reference Judas being possessed by Satan, and therefore losing control. I've always thought it was strange that Judas is presented as an evil figure, and at the same time, a figure corrupted against his own will. It never made sense to me-after all, as shown above in John 13:27, in a way Judas was ordered to do what he did. However, let's say that Christ wants to martyr himself in order to more effectively establish his church. He's going to need someone in the role of betrayer. The conflict inherent in having the Savior of Man suiciding after spending his life administering to the poor and downtrodden has to be placed on someone, or else the believeability for the masses falls apart. After all, the average Joe will eventually ask why Jesus didn't stay around for everyone, if he was placed here on Earth for everyone.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
112. Or is the term "Satan entered him" a metaphor?
Jesus points out in Mark's gospel that he could have been arrested at any time while preaching in the Temple. The only reason that Judas was needed was to allow a discreet night time arrest. These Passion accounts leave out all but the very essentials. We're all reading them as a big who-dun-it and missing the main points, I believe.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
55. I believe the term is assisted suicide.
But, since so much of the Bible is centered around the testing of faith...perhaps it could also be looked at as a testing of Judas. A test which he would have obviously failed.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
56. Wow, I never thought of it like that..
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 10:53 AM by converted_democrat
"If true, what does that say about the Schiavo maniacs and the right-to-lifers? If the Savior chose to opt out of life on his own timetable, and went to a friend to accomplish this, the whole moral geometry of this issue is turned on its head."

Wouldn't it be great to get some national debate on this issue? I'm not really familiar with any other religions besides Fundamental Christianity (I grew up in a fundy home.) and Catholicism, but they both really frown on suicide, either self induced or through a third party.. (They view the two methods differently, but the punishment is still the same.) In self induced, only the sole person goes to hell, where as in third party the subject and the helper are both condemned to hell. In particular, the fundamentalist view on suicide and suffering is, in my opinion, gross.. They view it as the easy way out, and they believe that suffering is actually a good thing.. So, if you off yourself to get out of the suffering you're messing with God's plan.. They also think that suffering is punishment for leading a less than holy life, and God doles it out to those who don't follow his (their) "rules" to a tee.. If you've been a bad person, and go through the suffering it some how helps your chances of getting into heaven. If you take your suffering here on Earth, than you won't be condemned to an eternity of suffering in hell.. I know it's nuts, and that's why I'm so thankful I had the sense to run away.. My religious views have changed drastically since leaving the home I grew up in, and that includes my views on suicide..

This new Gospel would set a big portion of their belief system on its ear.. The problem though is that they will probably just regard it as a farce, or like evolution just deny its existence.. They have an uncanny ability to tune anything out that threatens their beliefs..
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
57. how could Judas even write a Gospel
he committed suicide before Jesus was crucified.

:shrug:
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
119. Do we know .....
if ANY of the gospels were written before the crucifixion????????????
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
58. It sounds like Judas did what was asked of him.
It turns the right-to-die issue on its ear.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
60. allowing himself to be taken by the ones who ultimately killed him
doesn't mean he didn't wish for his captors to do the right thing. I don't think he anymore wanted to die than anyone who puts their life on the line for principle against an overwhelming power or force.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #60
72. I don't believe that.. He knew what was coming, he knew that he was
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 10:52 AM by converted_democrat
going to die, and he knew that he was going to "betrayed." He knew he was going to die, and according to the Bible, he referenced it on several occasions.. (The Last Supper, and the walk in the garden are perfect examples.) He knew what was coming, and now according to the Gospel of Judas, he wanted it to happen.. (He certainly didn't do anything to stop it.) I believe in his view, without his death, he couldn't wipe away the sins of all, and return to the father.. I don't think he wanted them to "do the right thing." I think he wanted to die, because I believe in his mind he had to die to save us.

If Jesus had not died, would he have the following that he does now? If he hadn't died how would the sins of the world been wiped away? We'd still be living in a world with no chance of redemption, no? If he had not died, and risen, where would modern day Christianity be today? What you're saying doesn't make sense when held up in the context of the Bible, especially with this new Gospel..

There isn't much rational behind religion, I grew up in a fundy household, and I'm religiously confused to say the least.. (I'm not sure what I believe anymore.) I'm not going to argue about the validity one way or the other about the different aspects of religion, but the scenario that you put forward makes no logical sense, even from a religious point of view..

Edited for clarity..
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #72
99. Didn't his execution hang on the whim of his captors?
If they had set him free, would he have still pursued death to "wipe away all of our sins"?
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. He knew that he wasn't going to be set free, he knew he was going
die.. He gave instructions to disciples, and he mentioned on several occasions that he was to die for "our" sins.. We can sit and discuss what ifs all day, but if you believe the text of the Bible, he knew he was going to die, and he knew by what hand.. Now, in light of the Gospel of Judas, it appears that he was pursuing his own death to insure that he would die for our sins.. So, if one takes the Gospel of Judas on its face, than not only did he know of his coming death as many books in the new testament state, according to the Gospel of Judas he actually helped it along.

I'm not sure what I do and don't believe at this point, because as I stated earlier I'm religiously confused. One can interpret many different things from the Bible, (hence the vast number of religions) but his knowledge of his own coming death isn't something that any Christian religion quibbles on.. It's very clear in the Kings James version, as well as the newer (easier) to read versions of the Bible..
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IndependentVoice Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #72
143. No he didn't want it to happen
Don't take me for christian cause I'm not, but there is a part where he is praying to god so hard for it not to happen he starts bleeding (metaphor I'm sure)
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
61. Here we are, five billions years into the Earth's existence,
and our little primate species that happened to gain a dominance at this particular time on Earth is still going round and round about this story that takes place only 2,000 years ago ... Silly, silly stuff. So insignificant in the massive sweep of time and space and cosmos.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
62. Bzzzt! This is a tragic example
of the "trying-to-apply-rational-thought-to-religion" syndrome.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
63. There have always been "other" gospels out there.
The gospel of Thomas, for instance, and 'infancy gospels' depicting Jesus's youthful exploits. They don't matter to most fundamentalists because they're not part of the Bible. This one won't matter to them either.

Anyway, even in the canonical gospels Jesus is presented as knowing exactly what's coming and accepting his death as part of his mission. The only real change that this would make to the story would be to make Judas a slightly more sympathetic character. In fact, there have already been speculations like that about Judas; The Last Temptation of Christ suggested that Judas betrayed Jesus to the authorities with his knowledge and consent, though it put a more poltiical spin on it.

Anyway, in general, just never try to win an argument with a fundamentalist. It's a waste of time. The main thing that attracts people to fundamentalism is the fact that you are always right no matter what logic, history, or the basic accepted rules of reading comprehension and textual interpretation might indicate.

The Plaid Adder
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
65. Sort of like finding out Rudolph didn't have a shiny nose...
according to a writing of Dancer or Vixon.
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #65
114. Heh yeah.....

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The River Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
66. You Could Call It A "Sacrifice"'
but trying to talk rationally about a PRE-RATIONAL
subject (religious myths) is a hugh waste of pixels.
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
69. more like 'Assisted Suicide'
Oregon has more weight if it ever has to take a challenge to it's law again...

Judas' Law they can call it
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
70. Or this new gospel buttresses another theory concerning Jesus
There is a theory out there, expounded by those who believe that Jesus lived, that the crucifixtion was a staged event for the public. So, Jesus needed somebody to get the ball rolling, and taps Judas as the man to "betray" him.

Who knows? Though I'm glad to see more of these sorts of finds, I doubt that the full story of Christ will be revealed in our lifetime. True historical documents concerning that time period are few and far between. And somehow I think that the full story is going to prove different than from all of our preconcieved notions :shrug:
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #70
100. A religion based on a PR stunt ...
Makes about as much sense as anything surrounding "faith" ...
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
74. It was certain by then Jesus would be put to death, but when?
Clearly, Jesus wanted it to coincide with the feast of the passover, for obvious reasons, both symbolic and prophetic.

That's why he had Judas go get the synagogue police, so they could arrest him, have him tried by the religious group, then delivered to the Romans. The crucifixion was a foregone conclusion. Jesus was merely one of thousands of Jewish men killed by Romans by crucifixion on that hill.

The story is built to coincide with the passover, by design. Whether it actually happened, who knows?
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
75. I guess we'll have to make do with the Easter Bunny
if all the crucifixion business is fake?
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
76. are you trying to reason with them?
Dude, you're talking about Jesus.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
79. What hasn't been mentioned...
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 11:00 AM by hlthe2b
is what does this say about Jesus, if he would foist such responsbility, misery, and a legacy of dishonor, betrayal, and hate upon this disciple? If Jesus knew what would befall Judas in helping him fulfill Jesus' destiny, then would he also not have recognized Judus' ultimate tragic inability to cope, leading to his own painful death? And wouldn't Judas' sacrifice ultimately diminish that of Jesus' himself?

As we honor Jesus' sacrifice for mankind, does this possibility not come in conflict with this portrayal-- and in fact basic tenet of Christianity? While we don't know what to make of the Judas gospel, this, to me, would be difficult to reconcile.

Which is why I'm content to consider the bible only as stories collected from man's interpretations of the word of God, and thus as full of inaccuracies, legends, embellishments as any other human account. The consistencies, where they exist, seem to give a good account of Jesus' message and philosophy. I'll take that as the most important aspect... I'd certainly never be a "literalist."
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
81. Jesus-gate, what more do I need to say? (n/t)
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
82. Gives a whole new meaning...
to WWJD.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
84. Jesus was only following the script. He said many many time,
"As it is written"

By definition it is suicide. I agree!
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
86. Jesus was taken down off the cross before he was dead according
to his wishes. I do remember hearing the Jesus asked Judas to betray him but I thought it was because of this "plan" to get off the cross before death.

They said that that type of killing takes a long time and Jesus was "dead" very quickly. Therefor he was taken down and laid in a tomb while he was still alive.

I can't remember much but I did not ever get the impression that Jesus wanted himself dead.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #86
113. Don't forget that he was in pretty rough shape before he was
crucified. I haven't seen Mel Gibson's Passion and I don't plan to, but it should make clear to anyone that Jesus was pretty nearly tortured to death before he ever got to Calvary. The Gospels say that Simon of Cyrene had to be drafted to carry the cross part way which indicates that Jesus could barely get himself up the hill. He was exhausted, dehydrated and bleeding to death already. Even Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus was dead, but the soldiers made darn sure of it but stabbing him with a spear before taking down the body.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
87. Yep
One night he said to himself "Man, this shit is all fucked up, I'm going back upstairs"
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. What do you think he would say today?
It's a lot worse now than it was 2000 years ago.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
95. He knew he had to die.
He agonized over this. Jesus told Judas that he would endure great grief. And he did. He hung himself. This was all professized by Issiah. I don't believe the Judas Paper changes anything. Jesus very well may have committed suicide. And after all, he could have avoided his death had he decided. So in a way, this is not contradictory to what we already know.


ps- Jesus was a rebel. He alienated religious leaders of his time.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
103. Interesting interpretation..
..and would change the reading of the entire Christian religion about the Crucifixion.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
104. Wow, excellent question.
:wow:

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
105. You don't have to go as far as the gospel of Judas to
come to that conclusion. At the last supper, he passed bread to Judas saying that one of them is going to betray him. Passing the bread to Judas meant that he knew he would be the one to betray him or so the gospels say. So he knew ahead of time and did nothing to prevent the act from happening.

This activity is pretty suicidal in my mind without bringing in the Judas and Jesus plotted this conspiracy theory. I used to drive the nuns nutty in Catechism trying to get them to explain this to me. Also, in the gospels, Judas hangs himself. How does that fit into the conspiracy theory?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
107. Well, assisted suicide, at least.
THAT ought to get fundies' heads spinning!

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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
109. I don't need the Gospel of Judas
to tell me Jesus did himself in. After all, if he were God he could have jumped off the cross if he had wanted, but he saw it through. If you "give" your life, don't you then commit suicide? The Judas angle is superfluous.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #109
117. "At least according to the other Gospels...."
Weren't there around 30 other Gospels? The ones that were chosen fit into what the people in power at that time wanted the Bible to portray. In my view the Crucifiction story as told in various Gospels is a myth, based upon other saviour myths and fashioned to form a new religion from many older ones. Without the Virgin Birth, the many miracles Jesus supposedly performed and the rise of Christ from the dead would this religion have survived even a 100 years after Jesus' demise?
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Good observation, Disturbed and
I applaud your view. Deception and deceit were apparent then....just as now. Corruption is not new either.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #117
122. Good questions, all
the rise-from-the-dead part is certainly unique and attention-getting.

I suppose that in analyzing my personal acceptance of the various aspects of the story, I would focus the most on the appearance after the resurrection, because it seems to have really fired up the 12. I would assume they would not have been willing to be martyrs for a story they made up. I personally haven't given much thought to the virgin birth or the various miracles. Showing up for dinner after his execution got MY attention.

I surely agree that the stories have been modified and tailored to achieve a certain result. And, indeed, I will even acknowledge that the whole thing might be hoo-hah, but my gut tells me there is truth to it and so I'll go with that. But it's a personal decision after all is said and done.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
120. The Passover Plot by Hugh Schonfield c. 1965
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 10:58 PM by EVDebs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passover_Plot

Avoids the fatal stabbing by a Roman soldier, so the plot went 'haywire' there if a survivable plot was envisioned. The disciples failure to arm themselves in order to prevent a seizure by a Roman or sanhedrin inspired 'posse' shows that Jesus was non-violent and not in favor of a worldly kingdom--which Judas and Simon "the Zealot" (a party of Jews who were against the Roman occupation of the Jewish homeland)

Simon the Zealot
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20030712.htm

Judas Iscariot
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20001207.htm

apparently would have wanted in order to see earthly 'results', and monetary results, not from a mendicant group of followers...Andrew Lloyd Webber's Jesus Christ Superstar shows this in the theatrical way.

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wizdum Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
121. Jesus was surrendered to the Father's will, and it was that will...
Edited on Mon Apr-10-06 12:03 AM by wizdum
... that called for Jesus to make the ultimate sacrifice, so no Jesus did not commit suicide. Jesus was a fully enlightened spiritual Master and for this reason knew the past, present and future of all beings, including himself. Jesus did not want to go through the betrayal and Crucifixion. Remember he prayed in the garden at Gethsemane before he was betrayed, asking that this cup be taken from him, but if it was the will of the Father, let thy will be done. According to the Gospel of Judas, Judas asked Jesus why he was having nightmares that he was being stoned. Then Jesus told him that he would have a special mission, but it would require sacrifice and cause him much grief and suffering. Apparently Jesus revealed to Judas what had to be done and Judas complied with the instructions of his Master. This is also confirmed in the four Gospels of the NT that describe how Jesus told Judas at the last supper to do what he had to do quickly. Jesus was trying to keep with the divine time table and have his crucification completed prior to the Sabbath. Judas' unenviable role in the passion and death of Jesus was more important than that of any other disciple. He was an instrumental and integral part of the passion play. I always knew that, and the discovery of Judas' Gospel only confirms that for me. It is really sad how Judas got blamed for something that was part of the divine plan. His sacrifice was huge. I'm fairly certain Judas was not fully aware of what the results of his actions would be and found out only after Jesus was taken to Pontius Pilot, which devastated him to the point of suicide. Poor soul. Jesus probably didn't clue Judas in to all the particulars of the drama beforehand, or Judas might not have had the heart to go through with it. One thing is for sure. Betrayal or not, Judas sacrificed his peaceful repose for his beloved Master's mission and because of his actions Jesus' greatness was and always will be honored and celebrated by the world.
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astonamous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
124. There is a pattern to your suicide theory...
Isn't the same thing true about those in power now trying to bring on the "rapture"? Or not trying to prevent it?

It seems to me that the Christian right is trying to or at least allowing the abuse of the planet and the start of WWWIII. I would think that God would want them to do everything in their power to save the world from death and destruction and not facilitate it.

Trudy
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Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
125. Very Interesting Understanding, Again, of the Real Original Church
One of the most interesting things about this National Geographic program, although they didn't really get into it but only mentioned it for reference, was the structure of the earliest Church, before it was "Catholicized." There were many kinds of religious belief and practice, each Church was completely local, they met in people's homes, secretly, not in a building separate, and there were manuscripts of Gospels, and orally transmitted tellings, far beyond the much later "official" Bible. (Even as late as the Middle Ages, great Christian saints such as the persecuted Johannes Eckhart often quoted Bible verses wrong but recognizable--there was no printing yet.) There was no doctrine of "original sin" until the Council of Nicea centuries later, and Mary Magdelene was considered a saint until the later Middle Ages. The earliest Christian communities beyond the original areas where these things happened, were the so-called "Syrian Church"--Church of Antioch, now Turkey--and the Coptic Church, Egypt. There were African Christian Churches centuries before there was any such thing as Islam.

The customs they had were totally local, and cut off from each other, as most people did not travel at all then, of course. I remember a program on PBS a long time ago, either '70s or '80s, on anthropology/culture, etc., (can't remember what it was called), that had a feature on the Coptic Church and some of its rituals. Many are unrecognizable as Christian elsewhere, such as a thing where there was a small lake/large pond, with a small island and a square stone structure at the middle of it, and the seekers had to swim out to this island and reach the monument, as an initiation. This was what the early Church was: no central Pope-like "authority," but a more direct learning from those who knew Jesus, or from scrolls and codexes.

With all the discoveries of the past hundred years or so--from the Oxyrhynchus Sayings of Jesus papyri of the 1890s-1900s, Egypt, to the Dead Sea Scrolls, 1940s, to the Nag Hammadi discoveries, and now this Judas script--the whole sense of Christianity can become more complete again, just a profusion of truth. The theory of the "Q" Gospel, which was supposedly the original document that the three Synoptic Gospels later came from, should remind people that just because they have found a document that was dated 300 AD/CE etc., does not necessarily mean that there was nothing earlier; it just does not exist anymore. Also, most things were oral. If you have ever read "The Art of Memory" by Francis Yates or any other book on pre-literate societies, you realize that they memorized many books' worth of knowledge before the printing press.

Of course you have all the atheist assholes whose only "concern" is hating Christians and calling them all "fundies," but the only real concern is about what is the nature of reality, what are we supposed to do, and what is the end of all this? Sometimes, what you think is the profoundest reality, is really just an example of a show, and it might just as easily have been that as this.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
127. It's my understanding that Jesus asked his father
if there were any other way.

He was meditating in the Garden of Gethsemene(sp) at the time. Apparently, the coveneant was such that Jesus was to be the last blood sacrifice, and so had to die an excruciating death.

Perhaps Jesus "encouraged" Judas so that he would have no way to escape a fate he was not looking forward to. :shrug:
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
128. ... and suicide is a mortal sin. Guess he's going to hell ... nt.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
131. Well according to some he just escaped and went to France
I have no problem with that either. It seems he was a pretty decent guy. Maybe he just wanted out of here.

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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. Dude, aren't you thinking about Jim Morrison?
Though they kind of look alike

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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. lol
Maybe Morrison was just trying to be more like Christ!

Being here requires extrordinary skills, he must have just wanted out of here too. lol I swear there are days (especially recently)I totally understand. :evilgrin:
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
134. If One Believes That God Is In Control
how could there ever have been a "betrayer" unless it was part of the plan?
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ReyHinckley Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
135. Jesus was not suicidal
It appears that Jesus was suicidal. Those who believe that Jesus was God could argue that Jesus needed an exit and had to be killed in order to fulfill prophecy.

I believe that Jesus was actually a man with great faith and that since he had taught his followers to face violence with nonviolence he had to face power nonviolently and that his death would be a testament to all of his teaching.

Post Constantine Christians have been given the option to believe that Jesus was God's son sent to become a sacrificial offering. Constantine needed Jesus to be God to fill the position of all pagan religions' god-men so that Jesus' teachings would not be taken seriously. Anyone who followed the teachings of the man Jesus could be anarchistic, and non supportive of the empire(s).

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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
136. You have a point there, however
if the "Gospel of Judas" ever attracts any real attention outside of a few scholarly tracts or sensationalist TV documentaries, the Christian Clergy will find a way to minimize the effects of it. It's "Gnostic literature", it's "not inspired" , "the devil put it there to fool us", blah blah blah..but I would agree, it certainly appears to be suicide by proxy.
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
138. No not suicide.
If he also knew he would come back to life does it count as suicide?
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #138
139. No, but was that really a sacrifice?
Being a polytheist, I view Jesus as a Demi-God at best, similar to Mithras or Hercules, so this is more intellectual to me. In fact, their similarities are astounding in a basic form, with the exception of Hercules, who wasn't known to be perfect, nor a savior, but the other two were/are regarded as such.
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #139
140. Of course it wasn't a sacrifice.
I mean dieing for a cause could be considered a sacrifice. But knowing you'll just come back to life anyway? Come on now.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
141. The Gospel of Judas only changes our interpetation of Judas
Jesus was clearly always in control of what happened at the Crucifixion. From the Last Supper to the prediction of Judas' betrayal to the prediction of Peter's denial from his arrest, he knew what was happening at all times and went willingly.

That is the underlying message of Christ's death: his willingness to be sacrificed. Whether that is "suicide" or not is a matter of interpretation.

But from that perspective, throwing yourself on a live grenade is "suicide."

And I don't think many people would agree with that.
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