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treegiver Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:10 AM
Original message
God Lied
In Genesis, we find:

2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the
garden thou mayest freely eat:

2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


But they didn't die, did they?
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teenagebambam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well....EVENTUALLY they did.....so TECHNICALLY.........
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. Even I know the spins out of that one.
"It was a spiritual death."

"It was the death of their innocence."

Etc.

No point in posting this crap here, either people are fundies and they'll accept whatever rationalization necessary, or they take A&E to be allegorical and wave away any contradictions.
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treegiver Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. No point in posting this crap here
Oh, ok.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. Think about it
what if we didn't KNOW where our naughty bits were?
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. To be completely technical...
Weren't they originally immortal?

So in this case, if they became "able to die" and "certain to (eventually) die" then it is true, although perhaps not quite as dire as the initial warning seems to indicate.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. I always thought that understanding the difference between good & evil
was a good thing....
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. Maybe Adam should sue god for misrepresentation. Sheesh. nt
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poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
7. It's one of the central tenets of all monotheistic, patriarchal religions:
Be a good little doobie and don't question. "Daddy" will take care of everything. Don't think for yourself. The only sin is to doubt "Daddy". You will suffer eternal torment if you use the abilities that "Daddy" gave you to imagine, reason, or question "Daddy" HIMself!

I was born and raised Catholic. Catholic schools, bible study, was even "born again". Trust me when I tell you it's all extremely manipulative and flawed. Man didn't just write the bible, and apparently screw it up royally in the process, He thought it up~cover to cover. Unmitigated fiction...
It's the only logical, and realistic possibility.





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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. How did you get "born again" after being Catholic?
That must have been one hell of a bounce to get you where you are now.
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poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Of which "born again" do you speak? The brief stint as a fundy or
my current status somewhere between deist and atheist?
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. That's not true in the case of Judaism
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 02:45 PM by rockymountaindem
In Judaism, we are encouraged to question God . The word "Israel" means "one who struggles with God", and the story of Abraham bargianing with the Lord to spare Soddom and Gammorah is frequently used as evidence as to why Jews can question God.

As far as Catholicism, I have no idea.
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. God lied, people died...has a ring to it, no?
:)
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. Yes they did...
unless Adam and Eve are still living on Earth, they are now dead.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. If you're a literalist, it's a problem.
There's the "in the day that thou eatest thereof" part that needs to be explained.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. trotsky, trotsky, trotsky
how soon you forget that "a day" in the bible has absolutely no meaning.
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believerinchrist Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. Physical death entered the creation at that point ,
and the reason Adam and Eve didn't die physically at that point was because God clothed them in animal skins. However the animals died to provide those skins, their death apparently held the physical death off for a while. There are a few things to remember about this passage. First, Satan knew what he was doing when he lied to Eve--he wanted to completely wipe out the human race. Second, when the eternal God deals with the time-oriented human race, there is an automatic paradox. Jesus said it well in John 4:23 when he stated, "But the hour cometh, and now is..." In a similar fashion, the minute Adam and Eve ate that fruit, their death was inevitable and thus was--it just didn't manifest for a number of years.

I just want to add something--believing in God and Christ demands faith. It is hard to quantify God apart from that faith. Anyone can make the Bible say anything to justify what he/she wants to do. Many people have misused the Bible to harm their fellow human beings. However, over the years, I have become more convinced than ever that the power of His love will eventually break through to individuals and to the human race as a whole.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. You seem to be
putting a lot of Miltonian analysis into your motivation of Satan that isn't really present in the Bible version. Are you a fan of Milton? Something your church discusses? I'm not trying to be shitty, I am just a huge fan of Steinbeck, who is a huge fan of Milton, so by proxy...oh, you get the point.
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believerinchrist Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Actually, right now, I'm not involved in a church (a long story)..
my "sources" are what I've gleaned from other passages in the Bible. Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 present some "metaphoric" descriptions of Satan, and in John 8:44, Jesus made a strong statement concerning Satan ("He was a murderer from the beginning...").
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. Here's my take
Adam represents mankind (Adam actually means "man" in Hebrew). God(s) did not want Adam eating from that tree because it contained knowledge of who shall live and who shall die. For instance, the gods would eat from this tree to know when one species, say, a lion, would go hungry, and another, say a gazelle, would be eaten. This knowledge gave the gods the ability to fairly rule the world, and to keep everything in balance.
However, the tree would only give this knowledge to the gods. If Adam ate from it, the fruit would pass through his body like any other. however it was dangerous because he would THINK he had gained this knowledge. Once (man) ate the fruit, they began acting as if they had this knowledge, clearing away entire species to support his growing population. If this continues, if Adam does not spit out the fruit, then Adam WILL die, because he will upset the balance of the ecosystem so much that he will not be able to live. If he spits out the fruits, then he WILL live forever, conditions permitting.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. This poor old mathom has longer white hair than "Sister, did Adam have a
bellybutton?" The New American Bible renders the passage:

"From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."

The verse is a problem only if one iterprets it literally and relies on an outdated translation. The KJV is unexcelled for sheer poetry, but if you want accuracy, you need to go elsewhere.
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Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. QFT
The KJV blows for accuracy, only the right-wing nutty types think it's some infalliable word of God, it's just not a very accurate translation. Probably less so than The Message translation, heh.

I'd also guess that Genesis isn't quite as literal as some think; what I get out of that passage is just that free will can be used for good or evil. (I mean, who had the steno pad before man was created for the first part of it? And that's used as an argument against evolution?) Along those same lines, the story of Enoch may be more a parable about the transition for a hunter-gatherer to agrarian society than anything directly literal.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Only the right-wing nutty types think it's some infalliable word of God,
Them, and the other literal-minded folks who trot out stuff like this as "proof" that the Bible contradicts itself, which anyone who's read past the first couple chapters knows anyway. But the reasoning is "Believer of any stripe=fundy;" therefore "proof" of the Bible's contradictions is "proof" that "believer of any stripe" is wrong, illogical, irrational, off in la-la-land, you know the drill.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
19. Your handy, one size fits all, answer to anything in the Bible
that doesn't make sense, contradicts something else, or just sets off your BS alarms:


(original poster's name withheld out of courtesy)

(208 posts) Sat Mar-18-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. Religious language is full of paradox and mystery.
Religious language is not the same as scientific or historic language. It is closer to poetry and art. That doesn't mean it doesn't carry its own truth.

Peace.




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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
22. Um...it's a myth, dear.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I'm sorry to say this to you, but it is funny you should say that... nt.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I don't believe anything in the OT is true!
But they are nice stories. Some rather racy!

I'm cool with the virgin birth and other mysteries of the NT, however.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Hmmm. .....Nice talking to you again!
:hi:
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. And you, too!
And of course I know it is a little bizarre to think that Christ was born from a virgin, raised the dead and then himself ascended into heaven after resurrection.

It makes absolutely no sense at all, and I can certainly see why some folks chortle about it.

I have no idea why I believe such a wild and crazy story. But for me, it's true. But I have a rather unique vision of time, space and reality. So for me, that does not mean it ISN'T true for others.
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