I believe religion is the greatest danger to humanity at this time. ...

[oscarguy]

As a young man I had hoped that if we ever could work it out with the Russians and Chinese there would be peace in our World, at least to a very significant degree. And now we find ourselves in a period of time where religions are threatening the safety of the entire World. The terrorism that has been destroying the lives,peace,and stability of our World in the name of Islamic Holy War cannot be denied. It has been going on for a very many decades now. In the past Christians have surely done their part to torment others. And if you go back in history it has been the same for many religions. As far as I am concerned the most popular religions are institutionalized insanity. As a World,we have to turn away from this non-sense to save ourselves. I do believe the most popular religions do stem from a fear of death. That is why they promise some sort of after life and that is what they center their beliefs around. What do you think about all this ? ...Oscar

[H2O Man]

1. silly n't

[Bobbieo]

5. Religion a threat!!

Hasn't it always been?

[oscarguy]

99. Yes religion has always been a threat to non-believers ,always!

Also, you have to get your beliefs just right according to these differing proponents. And on and on it goes. ...Oscar

[China_cat]

2. Any religion that promises that reward or punishment

will be meted out after the body has quit working can only be classified as a death cult.

[oscarguy]

14. Well stated. N/T

[DELUSIONAL]

92. Yes -- that's religion in a nut shell

The old pie in the sky -- give them all your money -- follow all their rules and the pay back is AFTER you die.

[China_cat]

101. The ultimate

"wait till your father gets home" threat.

[trotsky]

110. Ha!

Never thought of it like that. Good observation.

[hunter]

126. An insane, drunken, violent father to some.

Who beats the shit out of us because he "loves" us.

[raysr]

3. It always has been.

[NEDem]

4. Amen, Brother Oscar.

If we were not aware of the certainty of our own demise, religion would not exist.

[oscarguy]

34. That is it in a nut shell. I feel, well,once you are gone you truly will

won`t care,suffer,worry and on and on. ...Oscar P.S. But, I`ll be a long time dead so I am not in any hurry to die.

[SnoopDog]

6. Religion has been the greatest danger to humanity since humans invented it

More blood has been spilled in the name of religion than any other reason.

[oscarguy]

44. I think you are right. Hitler considered himself a Christian. That is ...

why he put a variation of a cross on his planes, tanks, etc..

[anitar1]

83. Yes, designed to control people.I was wise to that

at the age of 8.

[LittleClarkie]

7. "In the past Christians have surely done their part to torment others."

Poke...Poke...Poke...Poke...Poke...

Are we there yet... Are we there yet... Are we there yet... Are we there yet... Are we there yet...?

Poke...Poke...Poke...Poke...Poke...

[free_belmont]

114. Oscar is right

and you can't prove him wrong.

[knitter4democracy]

115. Of course not.

It's his opinion and his set of beliefs, which can't be proven wrong.

Still, it's quite the flame-bait post, isn't it? Let's call all those of faith on this board dangerous and stupid just for the fun of it. :eyes:

[free_belmont]

119. you can't deny that religion

right along with greed, has caused 90% of all human suffering through the centuries.

Religious people of faith, well intended as they might very well be, are unfortunately enablers of this suffering.

[knitter4democracy]

137. 90%?

Yeah, I can disagree with that. For some reason, I can remember things like tsunamis, volcanos, earthquakes, hurricanes, and many other things that cause suffering other than religion. I agree that many, many people have been hurt in the name of religion, but many, many people haven't as well. Others, who have been hurt badly, were hurt in the name of something else or by something else.

I'm an enabler of suffering? Yeah, it must be that the helmet liners I knit for our troops are, um, lined with pins or something. Oh, and the baby items I make for less-fortunate moms are made out of, um, greed or something. :eyes: Oh, I know--that money that I gave to Oxfam and to the OCMC for the earthquake in Pakistan and Hurricane Katrina was tainted somehow. That must be it.

To paint all people of faith with such a broad brush makes no sense. It really makes no sense to do it here, when the people of faith here are almost all progressives who work everyday to help their fellow humans and planet-sharers. That's why it's just a flame bait post.

[More Than A Feeling]

146. "If you don't stop, I'm turning this car right around..."

:rofl:

[wakeme2008]

8. At THIS TIME

it has always been the biggest danger...

[SPKrazy]

I Just Love Religion Bashing Threads

:sarcasm: :popcorn:

[swag]

9. from "Monotheism and its Discontents" by Gore Vidal, 1992

http://staff.dstc.edu.au/lawley/essays/monotheism.html

. . .

The great unmentionable evil at the center of our culture is monotheism. From a barbaric Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three anti-human religions have evolved --Judaism, Christianity, Islam. These are sky-god religions. They are, literally, patriarchal --God is the omnipotent father-- hence the loathing of women for 2,000 years in those countries afflicted by the sky-god and his earthly male delegates. The sky-god is a jealous god, of course. He requires total obedience from everyone on earth, as he is in place not for just one tribe but for all creation. Those who would reject him must be converted or killed for their own good. Ultimately, totalitarianism is the only sort of politics that can truly serve the sky-god's purpose. Any movement of a liberal nature endangers his authority and that of his delegates on earth. One God, one King, one Pope, one master in the factory, one father-leader in the family home.

The founders of the United States were not enthusiasts of the sky-god. Many, like Jefferson, rejected him altogether and placed man at the center of the world. The young Lincoln wrote a pamphlet against Christianity, which friends persuaded him to burn. Needless to say, word got around about both Jefferson and Lincoln and each had to cover his tracks. Jefferson said he was a deist, which could mean anything or nothing, while Lincoln, hand on heart and tongue in cheek, said he could not support for office anyone who "scoffed" at religion.

From the beginning, sky-godders have always exerted great pressure in our secular republic. Also, evangelical Christian groups have traditionally drawn strength from the suppressed. African slaves were allowed to organise heavenly sky-god churches, as a surrogate for earthly freedom. White churches were organised in order to make certain that the rights of property were respected and that the numerous religious taboos in the New and Old Testaments would be enforced, if necessary, by civil law. The ideal to which John Adams subscribed --that we should be a nation of laws, not of men-- was quickly subverted when the churches forced upon everyone, through supposedly neutral and just laws, their innumerable taboos on sex, alcohol, gambling. We are now indeed a nation of laws, mostly bad and certainly anti-human.

Roman Catholic migrations in the last century further re-enforced the Puritan sky-god. The Church has also put itself on a collision course with the Bill of Rights when it asserts as it always has, that "error has no rights." The last correspondence between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson expressed their alarm that the Jesuits were to be allowed into the United States. Although the Jews were sky-god folk, they followed Book One, not Book Two, so they have no mission to convert others; rather the reverse. Also, as they have been systematically demonized by the Christian sky-godders, they tended to be liberal and so turned not to their temple but to the A.C.L.U. Unfortunately, the recent discovery that the sky-god, in his capacity as realtor, had given them, in perpetuity, some parcels of unattractive land called Judea and Samaria has, in my mind, unhinged many of them. I hope this is temporary.

In the First Amendment to the Constitution the Founders made it clear that this was not to be a sky-god nation with a national religion like that of England, from whom we had just separated. It is curious how little understood this amendment is --yes, everyone has a right to worship any god he chooses but he does not have the right to impose his beliefs on others who do not happen to share in his superstitions and taboos. This separation was absolute in our original Republic. But the sky-godders do not give up easily. In the 1950's they actually got the phrase "In God We Trust" onto the currency, in direct violation of the First Amendment." . . .

[undeterred]

10. Are you a student at the School of Gross Generalizations?

:popcorn:

[oscarguy]

18. No, I think for myself. N/T

[LittleClarkie]

19. Ah, so you're a free thinker of gross generalizations

Interesting.

[NAO]

11. Christianity has destroyed Civilization once before...

Christianity is the longest running atrocity in human history

From the persecution of gnostics and other sects in the first few centuries, through the Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, the wars, the bloodshed, right up to today's pedophile priests, Christianity has inflicted more suffering on mankind than Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Kahn, Pol Pot and all the "really bad guys" combined. It has been a 2,000 year nightmare of violence, intolerance, torture, murder, destruction and child molestation.

***

The Religious Right is really OUT OF CONTROL and is exerting a greater and greater influence on our society. They are flexing their muscles in the political process, the economy and our entire culture.

Let us remember that the first time Christianity spread rapidly and gained control of the government (in Rome from 200 - 500 AD) it resulted in the utter collapse of Western Civilization and ushered in 1,000 years of darkness, superstition, ignorance and suffering.

Finally, after a millennium of Darkness, mankind began to see the Dawn of The Age of Reason and The Enlightenment. Humanity recovered some dignity, science was freed from the chains of religious superstition and real progress began.

The Constitution of the United States of America was one of the crowning achievements of The Enlightenment, being a document for the Establishment of a government that did NOT MAKE ONE SINGLE REFERENCE TO "GOD". With the establishment of the United States, government as well as science was freed from the domination of religious superstition.

Now, every day in the news there is some story about how the religionists are exerting their influence. Radical Clerics like James Dobson and Jerry Falwell get air time on network news. Religionists are organizing and boycotting businesses that do not adhere to their version of personal morality.

The specter of religious superstition is once again casting a frightening shadow over our world. The ghosts and demons of the Dark Ages, once believed to be banished forever by Reason, are again haunting our culture. Christianity destroyed civilization once before - it could happen again.

[oscarguy]

22. I agree with much of what you said. But it is radical Islamists ...

who are on the march today, so to speak. ...Oscar

[okasha]

33. Oh, twaddle.

Let us remember that the first time Christianity spread rapidly and gained control of the government (in Rome from 200 - 500 AD) it resulted in the utter collapse of Western Civilization and ushered in 1,000 years of darkness, superstition, ignorance and suffering.

Let's not remember it, since it's not true. The Goths, Visigoths, Alans, Huns, et cetera were responsible for the destruction of Roman civilization, not the Church. (That, and some inept generalship and politics on the part of the Romans.)

[NAO]

50. Christians refused military service b/c they thought Jesus was coming

back very soon and so it was not worth it to defend their country from the Barbarians.

"The Lord" was going to return on the clouds any day and set everything right. We are still waiting...

[okasha]

86. Make up your mind.

Either Christians were guilty of all the "wars and bloodshed" you cite above, or they were sitting around on their fannies stringing love beads. You can't have it both ways.

Fact: at about the same time that the Empire became officially Christian, Augustine of Hippo was propounding the theory of the just war, which indeed allowed Christians to pursue armed violence. The (Christian) Eastern Empire pursued armed violence so well that Roman civilization did not fall in the areas ruled by Constantinople. It was in part because of the preservation of Classic culture in the Eastern Empire and among the Muslim caliphates that Europe began to recover its own past in the 1100's, and the first stirrings of the Renaissance were underway in Italy in the 1200's.

If you want to blame Christianity and the Church for the wrongs they actually did, you won't get any argument from this pagan. There's plenty of actual facts out there without just making sh!t up.

[oscarguy]

64. I am referring to current times,not ancient history. n/t

[knitter4democracy]

117. Ummm . . .

You forgot about the Eastern part of the Roman Empire, which stayed strong for ages longer than the Western part. It's okay, though. Almost everyone does. Of course, that was an empire with Christianity as its state religion, but let's ignore that to make a stronger point. *sigh*

I am not saying that I don't understand your anger, as I do, I just think you need to make sure you acknowledge that things are more complicated than just saying that Christianity singlehandedly destroyed all of civilization before and will do it again.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

118. took the words out of my mouth.

The Dark Ages (will and ariel's description - the Church tried to rename it as the middle ages) almost killed off humanity. Studies were punished, thinking rationally put you in league with the devil. Only one group lived well, the very top of the religious leaders. And boy did they live well.

Think the communist party leaders compared to the USSR general population, and that doesn't even come close. The USSR was actually benevolent in comparison.

I have a translation of an approved book of torture used extensively during the inquisition. Your most dedicated Sadists would puke from even thinking about some of the things that were commonplace at the hands of the church.

I suspect that only one group has come close to torturting an entire population like the christians did. Mao, during his great leap forward and the cultural revolution.

No, not Hitler, not Pol Pot, not even Stalin. They all selected relatively small segments of the population as their targets. They did not inflict everyone with their abuse, murder torture, rape and more. Only Christianity unleashed such widespread, utterly inhuman and evil suffering upon the general population.

[nankerphelge]

12. Agree...

I hope that part of the current religiosity is a sort of last flare up before a shift in human thinking that chucks it all on the scrap heap of history. There is some precedent for it. No one worships Greek/Roman gods anymore... which is unfortunate. That mythology is much more interesting that the current mythological religions we have to chose from.

[MissB]

13. I think people are the greatest threat to humanity.

Ever.

[LittleClarkie]

15. Are you a people?

(eyes missb suspiciously)

[MissB]

20. Maybe.

How the hell are you going to figure it out?

[uppityperson]

16. Fundamentalism, not religion.

What people do "in religions name" is not religion but anti-teaching of any religion. These are the fundamentalists that mistake and mistrue what their religion says, and use bits and pieces to be narrow minded and hurt others. This is not religions. This is fundamentalism and they are the greatest danger to the world at this time.

[SPKrazy]

21. Fundamentalists Yes! Whether They Are Religious or Atheists

Let's not forget Stalin and his 20 million killed okay

[uppityperson]

27. yup

did you notice the new friend right below?

[oscarguy]

80. Being an Atheist does not make you a Stalinist. n/t

[girl gone mad]

106. The difference is...

Stalin never killed in the name of atheism.

I've yet to hear of a murder or other crime committed in the name of atheism.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

120. stalinism was a state sponsored religion.

They created their versions of prayer books, they gave orders on every bit of how to live life, they brain washed the people and they turned kids against their parents.

[Bill McBlueState]

41. fundamentalists are very religious

Fundamentalist Christians have a much greater familiarity with the bible than other Christians. It's hard to see how they aren't religious, given their devotion to their holy book and their god. And of course, they're convinced they're right and you're wrong, on no worse evidence than what you have.

You can't just say that everyone who ever does anything "bad" isn't religious. There's plenty of "bad" stuff in those holy books.

[SPKrazy]

48. Fundamentalists Take A Book Written Around 2000 Years Ago

using metaphors and analogies, mixed with historical writings and recollections and selectively choose which scriptures to interpret literally

not all religious people do anything of the sort

yes they are religious, but they are extremists in their beliefs and literalists in the selective way they choose to read and understand the bible, or in Islam's case, the Q'ran

[C0mmonSense]

56. What you don't seem to realize is that not believing

in god is a religion too. Religion is a word used to describe your set of beliefs, and therefore we are all religious.

[greyl]

78. Is not collecting stamps a hobby? nt

[Emit]

81. lol. n/t

[Bill McBlueState]

93. no, it's not

Oddly, I said nothing of the sort in my post.

But come on. If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color.

[Goblinmonger]

123. and barefoot is a type of shoe! n/t

[oscarguy]

98. Most religions are based on utter nonsense that cannot stand up...

the simplest scrutiny. Such as the fossil records,or any observable evidence.Come on , there is a difference. .Oscar

[NMMNG]

107. Welcome to DU

But I beg to differ with you.

Religion is a word used to describe your set of beliefs, and therefore we are all religious.

Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). Therefore, under your own definition, it is not a religion, as it is not a set of beliefs.

It is also not a religion according to the dictionary definition of religion:

Religion
• noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/religion?view=uk

Atheists do not believe in a "controlling power". Atheism is not a system of faith and worship. Atheism is not something followed with devotion.

Atheism is not a religion.

[Roaming]

155. But isn't an atheist stating a fact that cannot be proven?

It seems to me that an atheist is saying he/she is sure there is no God. They have to have a certain amount of faith to believe this, since there is no way to be absolutely sure of that belief... No one can be certain of the unseen/unknowable unless they have faith...

[treegiver]

156. Belief vs Knowledge

They have to have a certain amount of faith to believe this, since there is no way to be absolutely sure of that belief

It's not belief, it's knowledge. We know there is no God the same way we know there is no Thor, no Easter Bunny (War on Easter!), no tooth fairy.

Are we absolutely sure? Yes.

"As if giving grounds did not come to an end sometime. But the end is not an ungrounded proposition, it is an ungrounded way of acting." Ludwig Wittgenstein

[uppityperson]

66. They chose bits and pieces to use, rather than using the whole bible

Yes, there are bad bits in the bible. The old testament was partially a rule book to change worse things that were happening then into a bit less worse. My main gripe is that they take only bits and pieces to support their postitions.

[anitar1]

85. Prove to me that the bible is is not a book of myth.

No way.Spiritual feelings are quite different from religious matter that is taught by rote.

[uppityperson]

89. I can't prove anything about the bible that was written long ago

I think a lot of it was myth, stories, allegories. But there is stuff in the old testament directly telling about how you can beat your children, how long you can leave your enemies head on a pike in your yard, what foods to avoid, that sort of stuff that was meant (most likely) to give some better ways to live rulings.

I really hate it when people (fundamentalists) take 1 bit of the bible that they have found to support their way of thinking, and ignore all the other bits that would modify what they believe in.

[Bill McBlueState]

95. but everyone has to do this

The bible was written over a long period by a large number of people. The only way to make it coherent is to ignore some passages in favor of others.

Having said that, I think progressive Christians do a much better job at cutting out the crap than do fundamentalists.

[happydreams]

135. This is the kind of hairbrained hairsplitting that destroys

intelligent discussion. ANYONE who sits down in a church and sucks the shit up that is spewed from the pulpit: the Earth was created in 7 days, 5000 years ago along with all the other crap and does not question it is being brainwashed and allowing their kids to be brainwashed.

[wryter2000]

139. When I was a believer

I used to go to church. I never heard any of that crap there. If I'd tried to convince my pastor of any of that stuff, he would have told me God gave me a brain so I could use it.

[happydreams]

143. Whaa?

The Bible is not discussed at your church? :shrug:

[wryter2000]

147. it was diiscussed

i have a pinched nerve cant type

i wasn't taught to take that stuff literally...bible was an old and many translated document...inspired by contact with god...we did not discount science...stop making all religions sound stupid

i was episcopalian btw

[happydreams]

150. Do me a favor friend and don't tell me what to do.

Yes I believe religion is stupid and the people who find it neccessary to involve themselves in this mindfuck idiots. If a few people survive the brainwashing it certainly doesn't make up for the vast majority that suck it up like a sponge.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

25. Fundamentalists did those, not religious people.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SPKrazy]

30. Let's Remember That Is Not Islam, That Is The Lunatic Fringe

of Islam, just like Pat Robertson et al, are the Lunatic Fringe of Christianity.

[C0mmonSense]

36. Pat Robertson doesn't strap bombs to kids

and send them to blow up civilians, so your moral relativism doesn't fit.

[SPKrazy]

40. Oh? He Threatens World Leaders

he calls for nuking the State Department

people who think like he does harrass people going to planned parenthood clinics

what about Eric Rudolph? seems he blew a few people up didn't he?

yeah, moral relativism is it

bring em on newbie

[C0mmonSense]

49. You made my point,

talking about how bad abortion is, which may have indirectly convinced some nut to blow up a clinic is not the same as cutting people's heads off while they recite versus of the Kuran to their parents over the phone.

[MissB]

53. Welcome to DU!

Hey, do you think you could restructure your previous post just a bit? I truly couldn't make heads or tails of what you were trying to say.

[SPKrazy]

55. Not Exactly The Same, No

But you aren't talking about Islam either

You are talking about radical extremists who proclaim Islam as their religion

and I don't see how I "made" your point

you really don't have a point to be made

your just uninformed and trying to mislead

[uppityperson]

62. so one of these is a "nut" and one a "terrorist"? Trying to understand you

[uppityperson]

75. poster is TS'd

[MissB]

77. Well, at least this troll learned how to edit his/her posts.

More than I can say for most of 'em.

[oscarguy]

79. Yes,there is a big difference between cutting peoples heads off and...

making the sort of statements some on the Christian Right done. A very big difference. ...Oscar

[uppityperson]

87. Is there a big difference between... (too long for subject line)

cutting people's heads off and blowing up people in clinics? This is the comparison, not "making the sort of statements some on the Christian Right done".

[oscarguy]

100. When it comes to people dying numbers do count.9-11=3,000+AND

all the other terrorists actions throughout the World. Let`s see,the Israeli athletes at the Olympics,THE SUDAN ATROCITIES,HOW MANY THOUSANDS? They also still deal in slavery if that means anything to you.I would need a chronicle dating back to the end of WWII to list the major events. ...Oscar

[Bill McBlueState]

96. uh-oh

Nice knowin ya, Tombie.

[uppityperson]

45. Mrbush, the mightily "religious", drops bombs on little kids.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x672390

Edited to add "" in subject line to denote sarcasm.

[Nostradammit]

104. Right - he supports the politicians who strap bombs on kids

and then sends them to blow up innocent civilians, so your moral absolutism doesn't fit.

[Oversea Visitor]

68. Your statement that Islam declared war on US

based on 9/11, World Trade Center and the USS Cole is way out of line.
It is an insult to American of the Islamic faith and Islamic followers worldwide.

Free speech is nice but the abuse of freespeech to make such statements can only lead to path of promoting the cause of choas.

I question your intention in putting such reasoning on this forum.
I hope the moderator will in this case judge for themself the relevant of such comment and the benefits or damage such comment will bring to this forum.

[oscarguy]

91. Yes,and the Marine Barracks incedent and on and on. We Americans...

and our allies have to face up to these terrible realities. We have a duty as a people and a Nation to defend ourselves. ...Oscar

[Oversea Visitor]

23. Pure rubbish

Humanity is the greatest danger to humanity
Religion as itself is good
But when use by human becomes either good or evil depending on the human that is using it as a tool.
So why blame religion

[SPKrazy]

24. It Gives The Religion Bashers Something To Do? n/t

[MissB]

31. Even this atheist calls bullshit on

the OP's premise.

[LittleClarkie]

69. And this Christian thanks this atheist

for her open-mindedness, and lack of kneejerkiness.

[MissB]

74. .

:hug:

Abortion threads still get me all knee-jerky. Religion threads, not so much.

[wryter2000]

138. And this agnostic agrees n/t

n/t

[Oversea Visitor]

42. Sadly

if one do not see the root cause one will no be able be part of a solution to a problems
Hence religion bashing as itself is a danger in a sense that it create more choas than harmony
and would end up being a threat to humanity.

[oscarguy]

97. What do you think the root cause is? OBL very wealthy,educated man..

He has/had all this World has to offer. It was not enough.

[oscarguy]

54. Because all these monstrosities are being done in the name of ...

one religion or another and have been done so throughout recorded and unrecorded history.

[SPKrazy]

59. Stalin Did Plenty In The Name Of Communism

and killed about 20 million of his people

people do lots of things in the name of something

that doesn't mean it is the religion or anything else that causes it

it's the nut behind the wheel that wrecks the car

[Goblinmonger]

124. O come on

the vast, VAST majority of the deaths in the USSR under Stalin came about because of food shortage and an inability to run a country. Stalin did certainly have people killed, I am not arguing that, but not the numbers you are giving. I'm not saying he isn't an asshat--he was a vile man. But he came nowhere close to the numbers that Hitler had overtly killed. It was mismanagement and shortage of resources that took most of those people out. Still bad, but not done "in the name of communism."

[centristo]

127. actually I think you may be mistaken

Hitler's death toll is around 6 million. Stalin's is around 10-50 million, although it is impossible to verify.

From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin#Death_toll

Since "the margin of error" with regard to the number of Stalin's victims is virtually impossible to narrow down to a universally accepted figure, various historians have come up with extremely varying estimates of the number of victims, from under 10 to over 50 million deaths.

I would argue that 50 million people dying due to mismanagement and poor governance is every bit as bad, if not worse, than the systemic killing of 6 million.

[Goblinmonger]

131. So are you saying that Stalin

mismanaged in the name of atheism/communism? Cause that is the point that was being made that Stalin did what he did in the name of atheism. Was Stalin a shitty guy? Yes. Did a lot of people die under his watch? Yes. Was that the fault of his "atheism"? Not a chance.

And if I remember correctly (it has been some time) that wikipedia article talks about just what I am saying.

[centristo]

133. no, not at all -

one can't mismanage in the "name" of anything.

You said Stalin didn't kill as many as Hitler did, and I responded by saying actually he probably killed a lot more. Whether he killed them directly or indireclty doesn't matter much to me.

[Goblinmonger]

136. I said

that a lot of the deaths under Stalin were due to resources and mismanagement. The post that I was responding to was indicating that Stalin was an atheist and killed 20+ million in the name of communism (read: atheism). I granted that there were some people that Stalin personally killed (a few) or had killed on his command (a significantly larger number) but these that he directed to be killed were not close to the numbers of Jews that Hitler ordered killed.

It may not be important to you (or really to me either) how the people died, but my post, that you responded to, was pointing out an error by someone who said those deaths were in the name of atheism/communism. That is just a flat out lie. I was calling bullshit on that lie.

[wryter2000]

140. Hitler was a Christian

But he killed people in the name of pseudoscience -- eugenics.

[Goblinmonger]

142. Here we go again

I would just like everyone to know that I did not start this.

Hitler did what he did to punish the Jews for killing Jesus. The same reason that the passion play was developed. Also, he did it because the Jews diluted and changed the message of Jesus which Hitler felt was anti-semetic. Read the Table Talk; I don't have time right now to post all of it.

[centristo]

128. religion is neither good nor bad

however, when a religion becomes "exclusive" it becomes a terrible thing, regardless of its dogma. All the major religions have sections about how to "deal" with the unbelievers, and it normally involves smiting them. Is it still "good" because the Lord has commanded it? Why can't we call it for what it is, the advocation of murder?

You need to prove that religion is "good" and I don't think you or anyone else can do that.

[happydreams]

151. Good for what?

Religion is the opiate of the masses, it really is. It's close alliance with Naziism which itself became closely aligned with Islamic fundies after WWII shows that it has no larger purpose but to corral peoples minds.

[FrenchieCat]

26. I'm religious, and I believe we do much good in our community!

In fact, Barbara Lee is a member of my church.

Tavis Smiley and Cornel West and Barbara were wonderful a couple Saturdays ago while there doing a panel!

Our Get out and Vote work is very effective!


I think it's various individual people, not religion that should be given a bad name.

Stereotyping and generalizing is not a good thing, IMO!

[wryter2000]

141. Hey, you must be in Oaktown

Barbara Lee speaks for me.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

29. Most of organized religion makes life easier.

Someone can do all the critical thinking for you.

[SPKrazy]

35. Great First Post! Lots Of Broad Brush Generalization!

you should fit right in

:sarcasm:

[Iniquitous Bunny]

46. I said most, not all.

How about some? :shrug:

Ultimately, I'm saying we all have to decide many moral issues for ourselves? Many religions take out even the choice or the option of doing this if you want to practice the religion according to the teachings of the religion.

[SPKrazy]

51. Okay, we're now going from "most" to "many"

I apologize if I've misunderstood you

I'm just a little sick of posts that generalize about people of faith.

Neither my Church, or my religion decide my moral issues.

They may give me guidelines to follow, but ultimately, I am the decider of that.

I also usually pray about it and amazingly I get answers to questions I'm undecided about in the most mysterious ways.

[oscarguy]

58. I am sure that is a big part of it`s appeal. n/t

[SPKrazy]

61. Seems To Be! n/t

[Ilsa]

32. I am Christian, I am not as religious as I used to be, and I Agree. nt

[rwheeler31]

71. why do we care?

Religion is man made, and now a business. Belief is hope.

[Zomby Woof]

37. I disagree

I believe that humanity is the greatest danger to humanity at this time, and all time.

[hexola]

38. You dont make much of a case for "danger"

Whats the dangerous part? Fearing death makes them dangerous?...uh-oh!

[nankerphelge]

57. There's no incentive for them to fix things...

They're fine with letting the world go to hell in every way imaginable... God will come and sort it out if things get bad enough. I prefer a more proactive approach.

[hexola]

67. Good! Let someone else fix it...(nt)

[oscarguy]

82. No, believing martyrdom will get them 69 virgins or whatever does.

or whatever thier religion tells them the big reward is. ...Oscar

[ruggerson]

39. Big difference between organized religion and individual spirituality

and I agree with every word you wrote.

Organized religion, which ostensibly was created to perpetuate goodness, has only served to magnify and aid the worst instincts of mankind. Pretty much every bad thing that has ever happened in the world can be placed at the feet of the wars fostered by organized religion.

[oscarguy]

73. I agree with you,that is why I worded my posting the way I did. N/T

[rwheeler31]

84. Thank you

mt

[WritingIsMyReligion]

149. Individual spirituality isn't religion, after all.

Good post. :thumbsup:

[Bill McBlueState]

43. can't disagree

Without religion's promise of an afterlife, people wouldn't have any reason to be suicide bombers.

[PatrioticLeftie]

47. Religion is great for some, horrible for others

It's just a few who bend the minds of the truly spiritual, claiming to lead them closer to God and righteousness. Zealotry bears no bounds to any religion, there are zealots in Christianity and Islam.

[genie_weenie]

52. Actually I think Time is the Greatest Detriment to

Humanity. That is why I am going to run for office on the campaign platform of DESTROY TIME.

Once time is destroyed EVERY SINGLE social problem (crime, poverty, overpopulation, disease, etc) plaguing mankind will be eliminated, all issues with the environment will be dealt with, all the issues of humanity wiped away with a single dimensional shift! Brilliant. Maybe I should market this to the * Admin, I could get a fat government job...


This reminds me of that Book 101 Ways to start a Fight by... an Irishman who's name eludes me...

[SammyWinstonJack]

60. At this time?

As opposed to any time in history? :rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

63. Nope. Narrow Mindedness Is. Lack Of Tolerance Is. Greed Is.

Self-Righteousness is. Ignorance is. Needing to be in control is. Power is. Using opinion as if it is stonger than fact is. There are many greatest dangers to humanity at this time. The worst one is simply humanity itself. There will always be those that think they know best, or think they deserve more, or think they are better than others, or just otherwise find reasons to hate, whether using religion as a cover or not. Religion inside of itself is beautiful. Spirituality is beautiful. Those things themselves are not the issue. The problem is some will use those things as cover for their actions, but the driving force is really fear, control, greed, grandiose delusion, selfishness and need to feel superior. In just about every religion you'll find there are most who are decent and beautiful and believe what they believe while still being compassionate. But in every religion there are some that abuse it for sake of their own gain, and use the cover of religion as a guise for their own self primary agendas. Those that do so are not truly followers of any religion. They act with hidden intent and are not truly of any real faith.

[leftofthedial]

65. always has been

that's why it was invented

[SammyWinstonJack]

72. !

:thumbsup:

[Swede]

70. It's gold that is our danger.

Always has been,and always will be.

[TreasonousBastard]

76. You can believe anything you want, but it's still bullshit.

[free_belmont]

116. exactly

just like believing in Christ, Snow White, Santa Claus, etc etc

[mtnsnake]

88. More people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other

cause. Some things never change, and Bush is doing his best to make sure this adage doesn't.

[Emit]

90. Religion...the tool by which the ruler can manipulate the masses...

Here's an old thread by DUer chaska that I bookmarked, the contents of which come to mind when religion is discussed in the manner of your OP:

ATTENTION PLEASE: If you never read anything else read these bullet points

This is from Power Down by Richard Heinberg. It's one hell of a great book on peak oil. I just this moment read the following on page 68. The chapter is about the GW Bush administration. My heart started pounding when I read this.

Neoconservatism is the intellectual offspring of Leo Strauss (1899-1973), a jewish scholar who fled Hitler's Germany and taught political science at the University of Chicago. According to Shadia Drury in 'Leo Strauss and the American Right' (Griffin, 1999), Strauss advocated an essentially Machiavellian approach to governance. He believed that:

A leader must perpetually deceive those being ruled.

Those who lead are accountable to no overarching system of morals, only to the right of the superior to rule the inferior.

Religion is the force that binds society together, and is therefore the tool by which the ruler can manipulate the masses (any religion will do).

Secularism in society is to be supressed, because it leads to critical thinking and dissent.

A political system can be stable only if it is united against an external threat, and that if no real threat exists, one should be manufactured.

Among Strauss's students was Paul Wolfowitz. Second-generation students (whatever that means) include Newt Gingrich, Clarence Thomas, Irving Kristol, William Bennett, John Ashcroft, and Michael Ledeen.

Ledeen, of the American Interprise Institute, who has a "deep and abiding" fascination with Machiavelli and has written a book about him is a policy advisor to Karl Rove.



Researchers research this. Everyone send this to everyone you know: Bloggers, radio stations, tv station, newspapers, friends, enemies, everyone you can think of. Your country needs this information.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1880285&mesg_id=1880285

[oscarguy]

103. Very informative response,do check it out !

[uppityperson]

94. This is the greatest danger to humanity of ALL time:

Donald Rumsfeld is giving the President his daily briefing on Iraq. He concludes by saying: "Yesterday, 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed."

"OH NO!" the President exclaims. "That's terrible!" His staff sits stunned at this display of emotion, nervously watching as the President sits, head in hands. Finally, President looks up and asks, "How many is a brazillion?"

[China_cat]

102. I haven't seen this anywhere else here

so if it's a dupe, please excuse it. But this is the best I have heard from a lawmaker.


"Senator, when you took your oath of office, you placed your hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. You didn't place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible."

-Jamie Raskin, testifying Wednesday, March 1, 2006 before the Maryland Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee in response to a question from Republican Senator Nancy Jacobs about whether marriage discrimination against gay people is required by "God's Law."

[Kare]

105. Religion is pretty violent for all their love talk

More wars have been waged in the name of one god or another
or even over the right way to worship the same god than
anything else put together IMHO

:crazy:

[Pacifist Patriot]

108. Will to power is the greatest danger to humanity.

[electropop]

109. "In the past Christians have surely done their part to torment others."

In the past? Torment and torture are primary tactics of the Christian right in this country, right here and now. We have launched another Crusade abroad, and an Inquisition at home. Richard The Lionhearted and Torquemada would have been envious at how smart bombs and wiretapping can efficiently find and murder their enemies.

[BlueEyedSon]

111. I agree. Religion must change with the times. Praise Thor!

[soleft]

112. Right after I said the same thing Sinead O'Conner was on SNL

It was very weird. Don't remember the year, but it was in the 90's. One Saturday evening at home I got on this rant about how religion was the greatest threat to the planet, and an hour later Sinead O'Conner ripped up a picture of the Pope and said "Fight the real enemy"

I was like, Whoa - what's in the air tonight?

The problem is religion is basically a defense against the fear of death. For most people. It enables people to conduct their daily lives without falling into despair.

The more one fears death I think the more likely one is to become a fundamentalist. And in doing so acts in the world in way which is more likely to bring about their own death.

Maybe humanity - or life in the physical realm goes thru cycles where consciousness is in a constant battle with fear. A race to see if humanity can wake up before it destroys itself. Maybe in each cycle we get a little bit wiser each time. Or maybe not.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hippywife]

121. Sometimes I have to wonder what the goal is of those

who do create and/or perpetuate and broadly overinflate these divisions.

While I agree there are some "religious" people who do claw their way to power, violently and vocally try to create the world in their own sorry image, there are just as many more who understand the tenets of their beliefs and work to create a loving and peaceful world, many of whom actually lay their very lives and livelihoods on the line to do so.

I would posit that your and others opinions here that religion has been responsible for the deaths of more people than anything else is most likely incorrect. I believe more people in the world have been killed in the name of greed and purposeful neglect than for, or from, any other cause. Not because of what they do or don't believe but because rather than see every citizen of the world as human being, as deserving of life and love as any other person on the planet, some people purposely ignore or cheer the suffering of others so they can feel better about themselves by seeing others as less than human.

I work with the peace and justice organizations in my community and they are all interfaith with not just respect but also reverence for the beliefs of others. Not one of the people I work with would denigrate the atheist for their non belief, either. We are a mix of believers of all stripes and atheists working toward the goals of peace and justice for every person.

This is at the heart of living the teachings of nonviolence as taught by Gandhi and King. It must be the place to start on an individual level if it is to be spread through the world.

If the goal is peace, that is.

What, then, is your goal?

[papau]

144. Well said - unfortunately they will not answer - more likely is the

high school like "peer group ignore" from the atheist crowd.

There really is no discussion in this forum beyond the atheist saying they are "correct" and the atheist then saying you the non-atheist are not only not correct, you do not have a logical leg to stand on..


Thank God the real world works on respect and reverence for the beliefs of others -including atheists.

[europegirl4jfk]

122. Why America? I really would like to understand

Let's take the Islamic fundamentalism as a fact here; they haven't seen the Enlightenment yet. But what is this about the Western world? Why is Christian fundamentalism growing in the United States of all countries? A country who had the first modern government and was a role model for other countries here in Europe. I try to understand this but I really can't. I mean, I live in France and Christianity isn't really a subject for people here anymore. Most of the people my age (in their 40th) aren't religious, young people are even less. In the town where I live, you can count the few older women still going to church on the fingers of your two hands. My daughter never had to go through any ethnic or religious program at school; nobody cares. I firmly believe that we are beyond religion here, once and for good (at least the Christian part of it, Islam is a problem, of course). But please tell me what's going on in your country and why?

[moobu2]

129. Here in the USA

we've been able to keep religion out of our government (somewhat). Well, just enough to prevent what Europe has gone through over the last 1,500 years, which of course culminated in the Holocaust.
I think a larger majority in Europe understand the dangers whereas Americans don’t have that personal experience.

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." -Hitler

[centristo]

125. let me recommend Sam Harris to you

www.samharris.org

Read his book "End of Faith". It sums up everything I've known for years, but was unable to articulate.

[Brilligator]

130. I'm not the biggest fan of religion, believe me

I certainly hope that some day we can get to the point where we can all live without it.

But in the meantime, I disagree. It's too broad, kind of like saying "government is the greatest danger to humanity".

Plenty of people do nothing but good things in the name of religion, plenty of people do bad things. It is what it is, there's no black and white.

[Strong Atheist]

132. Welcome to D.U.! I would not put it as the biggest threat, but it is

one of the top ten ...

[happydreams]

134. K&R. This cannot be stated often enough.

Religion turns its adherents, with precious few exceptions, into babbling idiots easily manipulated to do the bidding of their leaders.

[More Than A Feeling]

145. I'm curious about this juxtaposition:

As far as I am concerned the most popular religions are institutionalized insanity.

-and-

I do believe the most popular religions do stem from a fear of death.

Why is it insane to fear death?

Or, if you think that fear of death is not insane, but responding to it with religion is (I don't buy that, but assuming it for a moment), what is a more appropriate response, in your opinion?

[WritingIsMyReligion]

148. And exclusive religions, fundamentalist religions do the worst.

This whole concept of an objective spiritual truth is fucking insane.

:crazy:

[Zhade]

152. I think, more accurately, it's the arrogance of many religious people.

Those who can't accept science. Those who insist their personal chosen unproven myths are literally true, so you'd better 'accept' them as true. Those who think one cannot be moral without religion (we've got at least one such dangerous-minded bigot here).

I have no problem with people believing in gods/unicorns/Lucky the Leprachuan - I DO have a problem when they try to influence MY life one iota with their individual belief system. Want to believe 'god' hates abortion? Swell, believe away. Want to make women less than men by controlling their bodies? Fuck you, you've got a fight on your hands, and you WON'T win.

[happydreams]

153. The best argument for banning religion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2173428&mesg_id=2173428


Just look at the idiocy of this avenging father trying to smite the infidels. We should put them all Christians and other fundie faiths and let them kill each other off.

[The Straight Story]

154. Has nothing to do with religion

We all have beliefs - politcal, philosophical, et al. Does not matter if a god is involved or not, those in power will always do what is best for them and their belief of the day and everyone else is always wrong.