The rapture, any takers?

[FM Arouet666]

I am sitting here watching an exposé on the Rapture, Discovery Times channel. Does anyone here believe in the rapture? If so, one condition for it to occur is that 'The Temple Mount', King Solomon's original temple, must be rebuilt. The problem is 'The Dome of the Rock' already stands on the site. Apparently the Dome is the third most holy site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina. Oopsie, there seems to be a big problem here.

I am curious, will a time come when the Christian world seeks to fulfill prophesy and destroy the Dome so the Rapture and the second coming can occur?

The show was interesting in that it included interviews with people that believe in the Rapture and their response to world events. The establishment of the state of Israel is a necessary first step and evangelicals rejoiced with the creation of the state of Israel, is control of the middle east also a step. Is GWChimp furthering this goal? It would seem that a defeat of Islam is needed to fulfill prophesy so JC can return.

I am not a believer, managing world politics based on a belief in prophecy scares the shit out of me. Any thoughts? :evilfrown:

[laheina]

1. I don't know that

rebuilding the temple is necessarily a necessity for the second coming to occur. There is a faction of ultra orthodox jews who think that the messiah won't come until the temple is rebuilt, and it may have filtered over into the evangelical system from there.

There is a small faction of the fundies that think that god's hand can be forced in this matter. Meaning that if we destroy, blow up, ravage the earth, he'll have no other option but to fulfill the end times.

Personally, I think it's kind of crazy from start to finish, but that's me. :shrug:

[frankly_fedup2]

33. When I see on CNN the three Jewish converts standing in front of

the weeping wall preaching for three days straight, then a crowd kills them and leaves there bodies there for three days, then they rise from the dead, THEN I will be concerned that that the end is near.

[leftstreet]

2. Is there an ETA on that Rapture, or what.

:eyes:

[frankly_fedup2]

34. Yeah, is it EST? (nt)

[Dr.Phool]

3. I'd have to dig up the facts, but

Rebuild the original Temple? You can find the information somewhere on this site, www.infidels.org , on it's dimensions, and building materials.

The thing has to be huge, and built with solid gold. We need another round of tax cuts to fund it.

It's all mythology to me.

[RoyGBiv]

4. More than one theory ...

It's not spelled out in such a way that one could argue decisively that the Temple must be rebuilt prior to the rapture, although that does seem to be the dominant theory because according to the timing in the prophecies, the temple is in existence at the time of the tribulation. The difficulty arises due to differing opinions over whether the rapture will occur at some point before the tribulation or at its beginning. At least this is what I've gotten out of listening to self-described prophecy scholars discussing the matter, so don't take my word for it.

You raise an interesting point here, though. One of the events surrounding the end-times is of course the coming of the antichrist, largely believed to be a Western political leader. The antichrist will effect a peace treaty between Arabs and Jews, which coincidentally would be necessary to lay the foundation for an agreement that would allow a literal temple to be built. So, if the Chimpster is trying to do this consciously, he's casting himself as the antichrist ... which is interesting in that this individual is a false prophet who brings millions of followers to his side with lies.

FWIW, I don't believe in a literal interpretation of these events, but I am interested in (and terrified by) self-fulfilling prophecies and those who seek to advance them.

[China_cat]

5. The dominionists

were pissed off when Armageddon didn't start with the turn of the century and I believe they are already doing everything they can to bring that about.

[Igel]

37. The dominionists I read about a while back were

almost entirely post-millennialists. I say "almost" because it's not as though I read every word any wrote, just Rushdoony, North, and a few others.

They've switched?

[greyl]

6. so, peace between arabs and jews will be orchestrated by the antichrist.

That's intelligent.

[RoyGBiv]

12. War is peace ...

It's part of the whole, "when they say peace, there shall be war" thing.

The one thing prophecy really has going for it is that it is based in large part on predictable human failings. People's whose base philosophies fundamentally clash and are steeped in the rhetoric of riteousness aren't ever going to be at peace, not really.

[liberal N proud]

7. I have heard renditions with 4 white horsemen and another

talking about the 12 tribes coming home. Even one where an eagle is mixed up somewhere.
I usually tune out who ever is telling the story the moment I figure out what they are going on about.

What I do think is that the bu$h cabal and his handlers as well as those who put him in power believe that the US must start the whole thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. The Rapture is strictly a fundie doctrine

They take an obscure passage in the Gospels, toss in a lot of symbolism from Revelation, stir, and half-bake.

It's a great premise for a series of potboiler books written at middle school level.

[grumpy old fart]

9. What's cool is when they establish a date certain.....

then ya can piss 'em off by asking them to sign checks, titles, post dated the time of the alleged rapture. Always seems to be a problem for 'em.

I remember doing that to several folks who came through town last time there was an outbreak of this lunacy. Really tested their faith, and they failed.

[MikeH]

10. The rapture appeals to base and juvenile desires

The idea of the rapture really appeals to some very juvenile desires and aspirations.

Like the idea of having God's plan all figured out, and believing and taking comfort in the notion that one is in a special group of people that is going to be raptured away while the rest of the world literally goes to hell.

[Zebedeo]

11. If the Rapture is coming,

I see no reason to try to hasten it. The thing to do would be to make sure that we are marked by God and do not bear the mark of the beast.

He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666. Revelation 13:16-18

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

Trying to hasten the Apocalypse seems like something God would not want us to do. I am sure He would rather that we love one another, as He commanded.

[FM Arouet666]

16. Interesting

I have not read Revelations in years, does the Bible state unequivocally that the mark is to be on the arm or forehead? The reason I ask is that the documentary I saw showed a number of evangelicals commenting on the antichrist. Many were afraid of the possibility of using implanted computer chips, a futuristic proposition used for identification; opposition based on the "mark." I recall the 'bar code beast of Satan' literature that was stuck onto car windows years ago. A Southern Cal Christian group was posting the bills, the crux of the issue being that the bar codes used in supermarkets and the like were the marks of the beast.

If the Bible mentions hand or forehead, how literal do you need to be, seems clear that a bar code is not the mark.

Just a thought

[unschooler]

18. NOTHING in Revelation is unequivocal. It most likely had nothing to do

with the "end-times" when it was written. Even if you are generous enough to presume it stemmed from something supernatural, rather than something merely hallucinogenic, there is very little basis for the detailed predictions made by the likes of Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye.

[FM Arouet666]

19. Your preaching to the choir

I do like the notion that the bible was derived from something hallucinogenic. I wonder, was the book of revelations written in Amsterdam. The Holy Coffee Bar?

I agree with your position, the bible is vague, most people who provide clear biblical evidence for something fail to support their conclusion when their claims are looked at objectively. The devil is in the details. :evilgrin:

[unschooler]

23. Supposedly it was written on the Greek island of Patmos. I wonder

what grows there???:shrug:

[FM Arouet666]

25. Potmos?

Lesbos might have been a better choice. Whoever wrote it had one bad trip.

[unschooler]

26. BWAHAHAHA!!!

:rofl:

[Zebedeo]

30. Yeah, right hand or forehead.

I just quoted it in post 11 in this thread.

So it ain't the bar codes on products. Now if they start putting bar codes on our foreheads or hands as a kind of biometric plastic-less credit card, I'm not gonna participate. :) Seriously.

[unschooler]

13. There ARE people already trying to bring about these supposed prophecies,

and, yes, they influence the evangelical community, which influences the government.

http://www.nationalreview.com/dreher/dreher041102.asp

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j041502.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42898

http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1004.html

http://www.bible-prophecy.com/links.htm#prophecy

[FM Arouet666]

17. Thanks for the links

What a bunch of nutballs.

[InaneAnanity]

14. I eagerly await the rapture

I'd love to live in a world where teh Pat Robertson's, Jerry Falwell's, George Bush's, and Zebedebedo's were all gone.

[MellowOne]

15. Sorry to bust your bubble

They have given Christ a bad name, and I would love to see them raptured as well. But the rapture isn't Biblical, Paul is clearly talking about something other than the rapture as he told the people of that era that the time was near and some would still be alive when Jesus returned. And He did return in 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, Israel was destroyed as a nation and old Jewish traditions such as scarifies were stopped. Half the population was killed and it was the worst tribulation the world had know up until that time, just as the Bible predicted.

[unschooler]

24. Personally, I'd keep Zebby with us. He is a democrat, after all.

But.... I suppose he'd rather go up to meet the Big Man in the clouds....:eyes:

[InaneAnanity]

35. He's a Democrat...

...like Zell Miller is a Democrat

[Zebedeo]

29. Thank you!

Thanks for that InaneAnanity comment! You are including little ol' me in the Rapture? How thoughtful!

[NMMNG]

20. I think it is BS, obviously

But I wish, sometimes, that the wingnuts would just rapture themselves out of sheer idiocy so we could be rid of them. Perhaps their heads could explode during a frenzy of hatred or something. Then we could get back to normal life.

[FM Arouet666]

21. If they get raptured I want dibs on their stuff.

Then again probably just a bunch of minivans with god fish stickers and 'W' stickers. Like your emoticon. :evilgrin:

[NMMNG]

22. They have houses and bank accounts

And the stuff we don't like can be sold for cash. :evilgrin:

[Dogmudgeon]

27. There's a couple of different Rapture ideas

It's not really a part of the Bible except for the phrase "caught up in the clouds", so it's one of those ideas that Fundies like, being easy to change as "necessity" dictates. Rapture theology is about 150 years old, and the modern version was popularized around 1970 by Hal Lindsay's book The Late Great Planet Earth. (Dominionists, a.k.a. Reconstructionist Christians, much to the surprise of many anti-theocrats, do NOT accept these versions of the Rapture. They are postmillenialists, who believe that the cosmic drama in Revelations will occur only after the thousand-year Earthly reign of Jesus, which they also believe will start any time now. Most Repturists, including Lindsay, are premillenialists, who believe that the action takes place before Jesus' return.)

Many Rapturists do think that the Dome of the Rock will be destroyed, and that this may precipitate Armageddon (the final battle in the area of Megiddo, now in Israel); many also think that the Jews will be exterminated en masse. These are "necessary" for the fulfillment of the Bible, according to their interpretation. Naturally, less morbid-minded theologians see this as bending the actual words of the Bible to fit the violent fantasies of Rapturists.

For years, theologians held that Revelations was a mystical, symbol-filled document; Albert Hoffman, who first synthesized LSD, worked with some ethnobotanists in the late 1970s and made a strong case that St. John the Divine (the author of Revelations) wrote it under the influence of Kykeon, a potion made from ergot, containing a number of psychoactive lysergic acid compounds that would cause the toxic stupor of an ergot overdose with the intense drug trip of LSD. That idea is still controversial, but traditional mystery schools have often used a number of hallucination-inducing drugs, especially daturas and Fly Agaric mushrooms.

I personally doubt that Bush is acting on any particular version of the Rapture story as if it was a schedule for him to follow. (Likewise, Evangelicals didn't exactly rejoice in 1948 when Israel was established; the modern "Born Again" movement really only came together in the 1960s, and before that, many of their leaders were strongly anti-Semitic.) But it has been well established that Bush either believes that he was chosen by God to play a role in history, or likes to represent himself that way. Either way, Bush is involved in a drama involving messianic delusions -- his own, and those of others. As you've probably considered, it's one thing to believe that God has chosen you to heal the sick, clothe the naked, or to play the definitive Hamlet, and another thing to believe that God has chosen you personally to cleanse the Earth with fire, brimstone, petroleum and depleted uranium.

--p!

[unschooler]

28. Thanks for the info, Pig!

:-)

[varkam]

31. Coffee shops and philosophers.

Personally, I think the rapture is a nice story, kind of like living inside of a whale. But I don't subscribe to it. Although there have been times when I've thought that if the rapture does occur, it would be kind of interesting to know where everyone else I see stands.

Put differently, the first time I read Dante's The Inferno, the description of the first circle of hell struck me as kind of a nice place to kick it. The people there were all in relative comfort, but there only punishment was that they could see the grace of god, but not feel it. I've often thought that, if I die and Dante's description is right, that's where I hope to end up. That's where all the coffee shops and philosophers are.

[nemo137]

32. I hope to God not.

Bad theology, which leads to definately bad consequences in real people's lives, so some sect can try and force God's hand. Think about that. What kind of "Christian' are you if you try to manipulate your God, especially in prefence to feeding the hungry and visiting those in prison?

[LaurenG]

36. Rebuilding the temple and the Rapture, another look

If taken in metaphysical terms it is not a physical rebuilding or rapture of the physical. It is inner work, rebuilding the temple where the Godhead lives in each person. The rapture is the awakening consciousness of everyone. It can be instant as in - the right wingers will instantly see through gw and/or we will instantaneously grow in spiritual consciousness. There are many ways to look at this.

THE 'RAPTURE' AND THE EARTH'S 'DIMENSIONAL SHIFT':

There are two ways to look at the 'Rapture' - one as an act of God, through the Christ, that lifts the Christian faithful into heaven where they are seated at the right hand of God. The other, as an act of God, through the Christ-light, that mediates the earth's 'dimensional shift' into a higher plane of vibration, carrying the earth and its inhabitants into a new realm of spiritual consciousness.

Both views are historical - one from a biblical Christian perspective, the other from the perspective of the Mayan Calendar, the Hopi prophesies, and the 'secrets' encoded within the Great Pyramid of Gizeh as well as the 'secret' of the Sphinx itself.

http://www.lightomega.org/NL/2004-12-22.html