Define your God!

[Meldread]

I am interested in knowing the following about you:

1. Do you consider yourself a follower of a religion? If so which one, if not why not? Feel free to elaborate.

2. How would you define your God? Is he all knowing, all seeing, all powerful and all loving? ...or is he just a spiritual force of all living creatures?

3. Do you think your belief in your God is logical or illogical? Rational or irrational?

4. What lead to your belief in your God?


No flames or degrading others beliefs, please. I am simply looking for an honest open ended discussion of beliefs, how they are formed, and the logical (or illogical) nature of them. Keep the insults to yourself and please do not take anything discussed here personally by those who disagree. We are debating the logical nature behind the belief, not attacking the belief itself.

[MadisonProgressive]

1. I'm rational and agnostic.

[longship]

2. My responses.

1. No, I am an atheist. Even before I came to understand my atheism I did not consider myself a follower of any religion. However, I was raised in a Christian church, the United Church of Christ (one of the most liberal protestant sects, if not the most liberal). I attended church weekly up until I was about 12 or 13 years old. Then, I never again attended religious services of any kind except for weddings, funerals, etc.

2. I don't define a god, or gods. They do not exist in my beliefs.

3. same as 2.

4. I've always looked at the Bible and religion to be, at best, allegory. Even when I was a child I was very uncomfortable with spiritual claims. As I grew older I came to understand that my beliefs stood outside of spiritual realms.

I have always been very comfortable with my atheism.

[sallyseven]

6. My god is a good being. . He isn't going to make me go

to hell. He will not smite me or make me miserable. Only I can do that to myself. In turn I try not to do mean and hurtful things to my fellow man. I give to charity, volunteer in causes for humankind and all in all don not do too much damage. I do however hate republicans.

[Meldread]

10. That is good, but...

You haven't completely answered the questions.

Do you consider yourself a follower of a religion?

How would you define your God? Give him, her or it some type of definition - it's purpose for existing, how it feels about certain things, anything. For example, do you consider your God All Knowing? All Powerful? All Loving? Or... what exactly? Help me imagine and visualize your God in my mind so that I can understand.

Do you think belief in the God you've described is logical or illogical?

What has lead you to the belief in the God you've described.

[Horse with no Name]

3. Okay.

1. Yes. I am a member of the First Christian Church, however, I have not attended for awhile because of an incident regarding a Sunday School sermon stating that a woman's duty was to please her husband--even if she did not feel like it. I had thought my church and it's members were progressive, however, I did learn differently.
2. As a Christian, I follow the teachings of Jesus, not God.
Jesus is loving and forgiving and doesn't spread hatred and intolerance. Of course, I don't look at the Bible as prophesy, I look at it as history. My personal belief is that Revelations has already occurred thousands of years ago.
3. In my opinion and in my life, it is rational. However, there is a lot that I do not understand.
4. I was raised with a belief in God, and have never felt the need to waiver.

[Meldread]

12. Sorry about that...

Sorry about your experience with your Church. :(

Your response to question #2 I find interesting, especially your point about Revelations. It is my understanding that many Jehovah's Witnesses hold the belief that the events in Revelations has occurred many years ago... would you mind explaining that in more detail?

Also in regard to #2 I am interested in how you view Jesus and his relationship with God. Do you see Jesus' teachings as separate or combined with the teachings of God? How do you view God himself, as a being - if you believe he exists at all? What attributes would you apply to God as a being?

[Horse with no Name]

17. Let me try

I think it is because the Bible was written many thousands of years ago...and every civilization in the last century that has looked to the Bible for guidance has thought that Revelations would happen "on their watch".
People are all the time questioning the wisdom of God and why would he allow kids to get cancer and die, etc, so how do we REALLY know that Revelations hasn't already happened and God has already forsaken us?
Not saying that is the case...but how do we REALLY know?
Why is there the Old Testament and the New Testament that were written all those years ago...but not another Testament? Jesus didn't write the New Testament...so why didn't others continue his work after his death?
I am not a Bible scholar--and I don't play one on TV--I just don't believe that the New Testament or Revelations is a playbook of things to come--just a testament of what has been historically and that is why there hasn't been a Third Testament or a continuum of some sort.
As far as the relationship between God and Jesus...as the Old Testament is basically the Law of God---I have always had the feeling that God was without much compassion or mercy. I felt that if you didn't do it his way, there was a price to pay--and it never seemed very pleasant--stoning, sacrifices, etc.
Jesus was all about love and caring for people. God was the first Conservative Republican and Jesus was the first liberal.;)

[IndyOp]

4. Origins of my spiritual beliefs

I am not a follower of any one religious/spiritual tradition, though I do respect and learn from many. I believe that committing to any one religion, automatically creates a situation in which one path becomes the 'right' path and all others 'wrong. I guess I really bought John's lyrics in "Imagine" - "Imagine there's no heaven. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion, too."

"Just a spiritual force of all living creatures?" Hmmm...

Is 'God' a spiritual force of all living creatures? I'm not sure of the 'God' concept. Maybe...

My spiritual beliefs are irrational because they are 'faith.' I don't have direct perceptual evidence/experience that confirm they are true, I understand and experience more by having them. My spiritual beliefs do not run counter to my reason, science is the study of a universe animated with spirit.

My belief system: I came here with it. I was raised Catholic, but my beliefs did not fit that tradition very well. I rebelled against Catholicism and Christianity and was attracted to many spiritual paths: Buddhism, Shamanism, Judaism, Islam. I am still seeking my spiritual center, the path matters more than reaching the destination, or so I am told.

:)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. Now you

KNOW I can't stay out of religious threads!

1. I am Episcopalian, Christian. I was raised in this faith.

2. My God is inside me rather than outside and is connected to everything in the world..and everyone. I don't know how. If I did, I could make a lot of money.

3. My belief is neither logical or not..it is innate. I just have it.

4. I have believed in this inner force since infancy, and oddly enough my religious training in the Episcopal church really is not related to the core belief. I consider my denomination very much a cultural thing. I can bring on alpha waves (literally) by listening to hymns or beautifully spoken passages from the Book of Common Prayer. It is also very much a link to my childhood and my parents, my father in particular. My moments in church have been the happiest in my life. I should also mention I attended a convent boarding school that solidified this as well..

[Meldread]

13. That's interesting.

What are your beliefs on the Bible, exactly? Can you go into more detail about your God? Does he have any other attributes... or is he simply a spiritual force in which everyone and everything is connected to in some way?

I find it interesting that your beliefs do not seem to be connected to the teachings you've experienced in the Church. Yes, I am sure they are greatly influenced by the teachings, but you seem to have gone out and formed your own thoughts on the matter rather than accepting what was taught. I wonder how many others have similar experiences as you.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

15. I think the Bible is sacred but not because of religion

I think it is sacred because it is so ancient, because parts of it are lovely literature, and also because it has been revered by so many and shaped so many lives. I would think that even if I had no religious beliefs. It is a very important element of civilization. I feel the same about the Koran.

I also happen to believe that the New Testament represents four versions of the life of Christ and it is his words that I really look upon as the meat of the Bible and worth my study. In some ways Christ was a zen master and his words are koans.

I have never cared for St. Paul although I acknowledge his importance in the spread of Christianity, however I have recently been studying how Pauline Christianity steamrolled the rest of the church. Some of his words are beautiful, though...

I think some of the OT has elements of history and the rest is allegory/metaphor/myth.

I am confused and disturbed by people who look to the Bible for instructions on daily life. I think that is creepy.

My God's attributes are patience, love, understanding but also a full and unemotional realization of my faults and weaknesses. I never, ever feel alone and I am not in the least afraid of death. It is either nothing or everything. I don't want to leave my family, however.

I love the ritual of my church but realize it is really not very important. But ritual helps us access our spiritual side, as does music.

[Einstein99]

20. Re: "You seem to have gone out and formed your own...."

A psychologist I know who studies the psychology of religion told me once that this approach to religion is actually the way most people arrive at their beliefs. Those beliefs are formed much more by parental and peer influences than church influences. The psychologist's name is Larry Bates if you want to look up some of his work.

[Meldread]

24. Sure.

I would actually argue, though, that religious beliefs are largely based off of cultural beliefs. It does not appear that there are any less Christians, for example, in liberal states compared to conservative states. However, the values are obviously different as well as how they approach their supposedly shared religion.

I'd be interested in reading more about Larry Bates.

[Einstein99]

27. Oh, I agree about the cultural thing

Larry Bates is a psychologist, so he naturally focuses on one-to-one relationships such as parent-child, peer-to-peeer, etc. An anthropologist would point out--rightly so--that these relationships exist in a larger cultural context. So, it is not the religion, per se, that is passed on from one generation to another; it is the culture, and the religion is interpreted and re-interpreted in the context of that culture. That is why being a Baptist in Mississippi is very different from being a Baptist in Minnesota. I have never read any of Bates' work; I have only heard him speak, but you might find some references to his work on Google or Google Scholar.

[heidler1]

31. Seriously, how can you tell when you bring on alpha waves?

I don't believe in any Gods, but there is no proof so I don't quibble about being either a Atheist or a Agnostic.

What I notice is that I seem very calm about life, sleep good, no aches or pains unless I over do something, no headachs, no hate and at the same time successful and 80 years old. I love discussions and do tweak people quite a bit.

[applegrove]

7. God is in miracles. A baby, love, growth, the beauty of nature, the wonder

& strength of those who choose to walk the walk every day of their lives, family, science that helps improve lives, cats, a cookie baked in love, a social worker who wakes up every day and makes things better in whatever way they can, an advocate, a government that wants what truly is best for all in a democracy, the fact that a really good egg walked the earth 2000 years ago and spoke so well of incredible new ideals - that it was repeated and parroted by people, a UN worker who finds a way to get the condums to people in Mozambique - even though George Bush tries to stop it, a grandmother who imparts love and wisdom from the vantagepoint of a big huge life and great lessons, a shrimp that feeds a whale when its day is done, a drop of water into an aquafer that goes to a village, the engineer who dug the hole for the village, the child who manages a little play despite being hungry, etc.

Somewhere in there. That is god.

[Meldread]

16. That is a really beautiful belief...

...I am interested in how you came to that belief. What was the inspiration and influences?

[applegrove]

18. I am agnostic. It is quite natural. Just like being devoutly religious,

or atheist. Very humane way to be. Come by it honestly.

But then you knew that.

Same old reason - all life is a miracle.

[Burma Jones]

8. OK, here's a representation

or



or

Any other human that has gone beyond our puny little existance, so, we are all God, only some of us are better at it than others.....

[Einstein99]

21. Bravo!

I once taught at a Catholic college (though I am not and never have been Catholic). I used to sit around with some of my students outside of class and talk about things unrelated to the subjects I taught. On one such occasion, one of the students asked me if I believed in Jesus, and I answered that I believed that Jesus was a prophet just like Mohammed, Moses, Gautama Buddha, Lao Tse, Mahatma Gandhi, and many others. "But you don't believe he was the son of God?" "Yes," I replied, "and so am I, and so are you. Jesus was both divine and human, and so are the rest of us. Life is the opportunity we are given to discover that we can be one and both at the same time."
I only taught at that college for one year.

[wtbymark]

9. and mine...

1) none, never believed even as a child, obtained philosophy degree and all attempts at conversion are useless
2) If one believes his/her god is infinite, that would mean it is contained in everything, which is Pantheism; if it is not infinite, it is therefor imperfect.
3) My non-belief is very logical
4) when I was 5, I was sent by my aunt and uncle to bible class, after listening to some of it I started asking questions- they didn't like that - I told them to fuck off, I was removed. I've only been back in a church for a couple weddings.

[Sapphocrat]

11. I'll bite.

1. No. Organized religion ruined 80% of my life. Republicans ruined the other 20%.

2. "God dwells within you as you." Which is another way of saying: Most people think that we cannot exist apart from God. I believe God does not exist apart from us.

3. Perfectly logical and rational. There's nothing magical about recognizing that energy never dissipates; it only goes somewhere else.

4. What led me to my belief in my God is more easily answered by what led me away from any belief at all: Catholicism, and then a long, desperate attempt to find God through evangelical Protestantism served to turn me completely off to the idea of a big, vague, vengeful being who was "out there." It was a matter of hitting rock bottom and realizing that no matter how badly I wanted to believe in what other people told me about God, I just didn't believe it -- especially since the way most Christians I knew didn't practice what they preached at me (not to me, but at me).

That, combined with my own incredulity (if you want to reach me, it has to make sense to me), made me give up on the whole business for a lot of years. Then my sister got into a certain form of Yoga, and spent two or three years nagging me to look into it. I finally caved in just to make her happy, and -- BAM! -- like thunder, it hit me. God wasn't "out there" at all. And it all made sense to me.

As to exactly what I believe, that's much too long and off-topic for me to go into here. Suffice to say, I'm at peace spiritually for the first time in my life, and haven't had a doubt in the six years since that thunderbolt hit.

[Meldread]

19. I'm glad you've found some sort of peace.

In regard to your #1, I used to think the same way as you do. Then I came to realize that I gave them too much credit, and the only emotional pain they could cause to me was the emotional pain that I allowed. That's the only power they had over me, their ability to force me to feel what they said I was.

In hindsight I don't look back at it with much regret. I am disappointed that I suffered so much at their hands, but at the same time I wouldn't undo the suffering that I experienced as it has largely formed me into who I am today. It has informed both my political and philosophical beliefs. I shudder to think what I might have become had I not been gay and suffered at their hands. I would have been an ignorant, straight white male... perhaps one who was an evangelical Christian with no ability to empathize with those around me. In an ironic sense I almost have to thank them as their hatred of me has actually made me a better person.

In regard to your #4 I'd be interested in learning what type of Yoga you are talking about, and if you are willing I'd also be interested in hearing more about the beliefs you hold in general.

[Einstein99]

14. I consider myself a pantheist and a transcendentalist.

1. I belong to the Unitarian-Universalist Congregation because that is the only religious group that allows me the latitude to explore spiritual issues on my own terms. For what it's worth, I accept the definition (I wish I could recall who said it) that religion is for people who want to stay out of hell; spirituality is for people who have already been there (and God knows I've been there!).

2. When people ask me if I believe in God, I tell them, "I don't know. I don't really think it is an important question." That sentiment notwithstanding, if I had to define 'God,' I guess I would use Robert Ingram's poem:

TRANSCENDENCE

By Robert M. Ingram
© 2005

It is not you,
and you are not it.

It is in you,
and you are in it.

You cannot touch it,
but you can feel it.

You cannot see it,
but you can envision it.

You cannot comprehend it,
but you can know it.

It is not you,
and you are not it.

It is all that you are
and all that you can be.

Seek it.
You belong.

3. Is my belief in God logical or illogical? Rational or irrational? Are these trick questions? To me, "God," for lack of a better word, is a verb, not a noun. It is an exploration. I like to think that I conduct that exploration in a logical, rational way, but I would be a hypocrite to deny the non-rational element. Though I do not believe in blind faith, I believe that we should not dismiss the aesthetic aspect of spirituality. The rational and the intangible do not have to be mutually exclusive.

4. What lead me to my beliefs? God, my notes alone would fill the Smithsonian. I was raised as a Primitive Baptist. To us, Southern Baptists were liberals, and everyone else was a communist. I apent a couple of decades just trying to shake off that cloak of repression. Eventually, I turned to Unity, which I enjoyed in many ways but still found too Christian. I like UU because it lets me explore all kinds of religious traditions and non-religious ethical and moral philosophies without committing to any one of them. Furthermore, UUers are committed to the principles of compassion, equality, and justice, and they spend a lot more of their time LIVING these principles than just preaching about them. I have found them to be "smarter than the average bear," as Yogi would say, and really very nice people. Who knows? At some point I may decide that I am no longer satisfied with this group and move on to something else. As I said, it is all an exploration for me.

[Goldensilence]

22. ok

#1 I would say more buddhist then anything. Although my interpretation of the dharma might differ that from some.It's more a path then destination because every time i turn around here I am. After being raised catholic until 12 when i brought up questions of reincarnation and a few other assortment of questions which they mostly put off as you will question the church and then you will return. I haven't except for a friend's wedding last year.

#2 I don't believe in a god. Lately I've been looking into the Gaia theory as i've kind of always subscribed more to the idea of a mass consciousness. There is always questions much like there is always answers it is in silence where we find them. To me silence isn't so much outside as it is inside when our mind is at rest and we are able to listen to the wind in the trees and grass, the thunder and rain in a storm, to hear the symphony of the night, the roar of the waves at a beach... in these moments silence is golden.Someone here most perfectly summed it all up for me on here and forgive me for not copying the name as well...but here is what they said:

When you get right down to it...
Evolution IS the design by which
Endless Consciousness becomes the
endless physical universe which then
evolves back into Endless Consciousness.

In 15 billion years we have evolved from the
raw matter created by the "Big Bang" (or the Big Incarnation
as I prefer to call it), to conscious beings who seem
to have an built in "drive" to seek something beyond
the purely physical (the "spiritual).

The gods created by man are
small and fearful gods created by small and fearful minds.
I think the vast majority of people, of all religious types,
simply aren't ready for the truth that there is no
"separate" god to save them in the here and now or to give their ego's an endless existence beyond physical death.
And easier to acknowledge that, than acknowledging the simple truth that they are, right now, Endless Consciousness made manifest.

Right now we are 5 billion humans wishing, hoping, praying to
some external "God" to save us from ourselves.

Now,imagine a world where 5 billions "bits" of self-knowing spirit started working together to create a real heaven on earth.

It may be another 15 or 100 billion years until spirit-as-matter evolves back into itself. The entire physical universe gone, evolved back into Pure Consciousness. The real kicker is this: Endless Consciousness, now laughing at it's game of Transcendence and Evolution, will empty itself back into matter to once again evolve, to once again live, love and find it's way back unto Itself.

Why a "game" that takes 30 billion or 100 billion years to play?
Why not? What is "time" to a God?

Summed up so perfectly thank you to the author!


#3 Is looking around us for answers logical? I would think so.

#4 As for how it arrived to these conclusions....in the East I believe they say I took the personal path.

[htuttle]

23. I have a photograph

Answers:
1. Do you consider yourself a follower of a religion? If so which one, if not why not? Feel free to elaborate.
1. There is no organized religion that really expresses my personal beliefs about the world and my place in it.

How would you define your God? Is he all knowing, all seeing, all powerful and all loving? ...or is he just a spiritual force of all living creatures?
2. My 'god' is the biosphere. I see my relationship to it in a similar fashion as a cell in my leg is to 'me'. I don't pray to it. I'm not even certain it is 'sentient' in the sense that we are. Certainly, if it is, then it's 'mind' would be as different from yours and mind as ours are from a cell in our legs. I doubt that if the biosphere does possess some sort of synergistic intelligence (such as you and me and the dogs have), then it's unaware of my individual existence (as I couldn't pick out one or two favorite cells in my legs, either -- they're all sort of important to me, since they are 'me').

Do you think your belief in your God is logical or illogical? Rational or irrational?
3. Fairly logical, I think. I do not think I rely on anything but contemplation of the meaning of what we know about biology and ecology to construct my beliefs. I possess a suspicion, or maybe a 'hope' that the biosphere as a whole has some sort of synergistic intelligence, but I have no evidence of it, and freely admit that. I am open to either possibility. It just seems that as biological complexity increases, so does biological intelligence. It may be hard to detect a 'mind' when you're living inside of it. For example, I wonder what my brain neurons really think they are 'talking' about when I have a thought?

What lead to your belief in your God?
4. Several experiences in the mountains in the late 1980's. I finally had a simple, yet profound, realization of what I was really looking at when I gazed upon the world. At the time, it made me laugh. They may have merely been several short psychotic episodes, for all I know... :crazy: , but they made quite an impression on me.

[nemo137]

25. This I believe

1.) I was raised in a fairly liberal congregation of the Evangelical Covenant Church. My mother was raised Catholic, my maternal grandfather is an agnostic, father was raised ECC, my pateral grandmother was ECC, my paternal grandfater was a Presbyterian minister, and my paternal step-grandfather is an atheist. I say this becasue I wonder if any of it had something to do with my father's turn towards fundementalist Christianity when I was a child (I was taken to a Benny Hinn event when I was 10 or so). I also believe that his turn towards fundementalism was based in part of my sister's illness (congenital brain tumor and epilepsy). I was pulled out of the ECC when I was 14, a week before I was supposed to be confirmed. We then spent several years attending various evangelical and fundementalist churches, including a memorable stint at a mostly black evangelical church, followed by a few months at a "non-denominational" charismatic church (one of my favorite memories is my father attemping to explain to a visiting French foreign exchange student what a "charismatic christian" is). I myself attending an evangelical youth church before a combination of my doubts and my father's conviction that there was something not right about it removed me from that, too. After this point, I basically ceased regular church attendance. We have to choose neutral churches for Christmas and Easter, and it usually pisses someone off. I remember the Easter before last, my father dragged us to an Assembly of God church. My mother and I sat, tight-lipped, through the sermon, which focused more on the sacrifice on the cross than the resurrection (musically irritating, too. Raised basically Lutheran, I feel cheated at Easter if I don't get one big Swedish anthem and one hymn that includes the line "Where, o death is your victory? Where, o grave, is your sting?"). My mother and I had been planning to go to Latin mass that Easter, since she grew up with it, and I'd never been. At that point, I started shopping around for a a church of my own, mostly for the community, and eventually ended up attending a local Episcopalian chapel, although no regularly. So, to sum up, I consider myself to be part of the Protestant tradition, and if someone really pressed me for a denomination, I'd probably say Episcopalian, although that's loose.

2.) I have a hard time defining God. I refer to him with a male pronoun, but that's because I'm male, and that's easier for me to process. As for his nature? I don't know. The only things I'm reasonable sure of are eternal and omnipresent. I can accept omnipotent, especially if he gave his creations a large amount of free will (which is how the line "make them in our image" seemed to play out for me). I tend to think that God lives outside of time, experiencing every moment as "now." I believe that the laws of physics are either set by God, or are some aspect of him. I believe in some version of the Holy Spirit, acting as a conscience, which we ignore to a greater or lesser extent. I believe that Jesus existed, and was a great preacher, but I'm not altogether sure of his status as divine, or if he was merely blessed. I believe the Bible to be a collection of stories and allegories and commentaries for us to study (again, I was raised Christian, so my frame of reference is Christian) to understand God as he has been seen and how we may see him in the future. I am, I guess, an Agnostic Theist. I believe any true knowlege of God to be impossible, at least from a human point of view, although I choose to believe based on how I was raised, how I have come to view the universe, and felt experiences. It's an innate faith, unproven, but there and not going away.

3.) My belief is rational, to a point. I cannot prove the existence of God, but based on what I believe, it's filtered through some logic. I tend to be a fairly rational person. I do, however, sometimes cop out by claiming that belief in God is not necessarily a rational process, or that while rationality and belief are not inherently in conflict, they do not lead to eachother. More on this as it develops.

4.) Upbringing, lived experience, thinking late at night about "how did we come to be here and what else is out there?" They way the universe works, how things happen (planets rotate, things fall because of force generated by the mass of those planets, water freezes in predicable ways) suggests to me some sort of order, maybe not a conscious "this goes here, that goes there" order, but some pattern of organization. I could be wrong though, but that's what I believe*.


*which might as well be the motto of an Agnostic Theist, right?

[jbnow]

32. One comment

though you have many worth commenting on

"I refer to him with a male pronoun, but that's because I'm male, and that's easier for me to process."

Funny because I think I refer to God as he because I am female. I am she and God then he. The males closest to me use She.

But CS Lewis made a point that seems valid...we are all female (receptive) when it comes to our relationship with God.

[freestyle]

26. Good questions. An attempt at answers.

I am a Christian of the Episcopalian variety. I was raised in this church and have chosen to stay in it, mainly because of its progressive views and genuine movement towards inclusion.

I see God as a force that dwells within and flows without, and that is constantly accessible for guidance. I see God in all the beauty in the world. I see God as a loving force. I do not think God is is terribly involved in human affairs like intervening in battles and changing the course of nature as often happened in the Old Testament. The trajectory in the Bible is clear from God as God being among us, to God living and dying as one of us while embodying a message of love and healing, to God as a spirit guide with unfolding teachings. I can accept that, and it fits with my observance of reality. We have been given the example and are free to check in for guidance on how to follow it, or not.

I think this is rational, but others may not. There is too much good, and truth, and beauty to not at least entertain the possibility of God. The teachings of Jesus are a wonderful example. The major similarities with other religious stories do not dilute the essential truth of the example.

I was brought up in the Episcopal Church. The foundations of our faith are scripture, tradition, and reason. The application of thought, study, questioning, is encouraged. I have questioned, and observed, and concluded that there is something greater than us with lessons to teach and guidance to help us along the way.

[hunter]

28. I'm mostly Social Justice Catholic

I've been attending Catholic Mass for near twenty years now. I'm not Baptized Catholic, instead I'm floating out in the schism between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. The relationships between the various Orthodox Churches are, well, um, Byzantine, and that sort of leaves me out in the cold. But in the Catholic Church you simply show up anywhere, and that's okay. It's always an open house, and when you are travelling you can attend Mass in some very beautiful places.

It has never bothered me to be a heretic of any sort. Tell me I'm going to hell and it rolls right off my back. I don't live in fear of God's Judgement. Who knows, maybe it's Asperger's Syndrome? I'm also very outspoken in my writing, which is probably why I'll never become fully Catholic. As quixotic as this might be, I expect the Church to move towards me, and not vice versa. Priests and Bishops know my stand on gay marriage and other similar issues. I figure in 600 years or so they'll come around. God has plenty of time, and maybe meanwhile I can work on 'em from the inside. I am always very, very careful of how I give my money to the Church, because there have been quite a few situations in which they have not used it wisely -- covering up for pedophile priests being one of those things, and supporting anti-gay marriage initiatives being another.

I don't feel uncomfortable in the churches of most other religions either, which seems to worry some people. But I am not fond of the "non-denominational" Christian mega-churches, or the fundamentalist evangelical churches, etc.. No "Altar Calls" for me, thank you. On the other side of the spectrum, the Unitarian Universalists make me crazy -- it doesn't feel like going to church to me. Not in a bad way, but I like going to church.

Fortunately for me I live in a fairly liberal parish. I know very well that if I lived in some more conservative place I would not attend Mass. I don't know if I'd become Episcopalian or something like that since it's not a choice that's been forced upon me.

My mom is an argue-with-God and wear-out-a-Bible kind of person. My dad is more of a quiet, "Let's go fishing with God" kind of person. For my dad fishing on Sunday is a fine sort of church. (On the morning of my wedding day I was so nervous I could hardly talk, while the Priest and my dad and my brothers were having a grand time talking about fishing!)

I know many religions can be very harsh towards anyone who is gay. I missed out on that as a kid. As I was growing up my parents had openly gay friends. "Public Displays of Affection" between two people of the same sex were quite unremarkable in our house. Witnessing such things as kids, my siblings and I felt exactly the same sort of "EWWWWWWWW" we did when heterosexual couples kissed or held hands. A few of our neighbors were also gay, and my parents were quite cordial towards them. It was probably a Hollywood film industry thing.

It was only when I went to college that I saw the uglier side of the world. I had a friend who was terribly damaged by the anti-gay religious fundamentalism of her family. Her life was truly a horror story. Even after she escaped her family she continued to hurt herself, and to hurt other people. I still have some horrible scars from that relationship. But she survived, we went our seperate ways, she married a woman, they have kids, and it's been happily ever after. But for a time it was hell on earth. When her father died I wasn't at all sad. (And it's still hard for me not to say something worse about him...)

It's probably not Catholic of me to be short-circuiting the hierarchy of the Church, but if I see a conflict between what the Church says and what some well informed interpretation of what Jesus says, I'll usually take the side of Jesus.

The God I believe in does not shut down honest, intellectual debates about religion.

[nemo137]

29. Parts of your story sounds remarkably like mine.

"I know many religions can be very harsh towards anyone who is gay. I missed out on that as a kid."

My mom's best friend in college was a large, angry, Catholic lesbian New Zealander. I was always taught that gay people are, well, people. I didn't discover how ugly some Christians could be, I mean actively ugly, until high school.

Oh, and the line about "relationships between the various Orthodox Churches are, well, um, Byzantine" made me laugh more than it probably should have.

[More Than A Feeling]

30. My answers:

1. I consider myself a Christian, and I am a member of the American Baptist denomination, which was the anti-slavery side of the Baptist split during the Civil War (Southern Baptists were pro-slavery) I was not raised in any religion, in fact my parents never mentioned it at all, so I was an atheist. I converted during my sophomore year of college.

2. My God is revealed through my interpretation of the Bible. God is my creator, and the creator of everything. He (though He is beyond gender) is eternal. I believe that He loves his creation. I do His will when I do unto others as I would have them do unto me. When I sin, His forgiveness helps me to keep trying.

3. My belief in God is part of my worldview. As such, it is part of the standards by which I judge things logical/illogical and rational/irrational. The standards themselves cannot be judged by those measures.

4. I decided to believe in God for the following reasons: First, the idea of an eternal universe seems to me less likely than an eternal God that creates a finite universe. Second, I liked Jesus's ethical message. Third, I have felt the need for the forgiveness of God.

[jbnow]

33. Fun to read. I'll try too

1. Do you consider yourself a follower of a religion? If so which one, if not why not? Feel free to elaborate.
No religion. Anytime I've gone to church as a child or adult there has been too much I disagreed with and I don't think churches want me to reshape them. I like singing hymns though.

2. How would you define your God? Is he all knowing, all seeing, all powerful and all loving? ...or is he just a spiritual force of all living creatures?
I can't begin to define God. When I was forming a relationship before I had one conscious clue it was God or any big holy word I never knew what to call it. I called it Truth, I called it "It", I called it "This energy", "This reality"
"It" was everything that was true...
I can feel it better then I can say it, but I can't even feel the definition of God.
Oh, here's something. I think whatever else God is...he is the flame in all of our spirit, the place where we are one...where we cooperate with that which is bigger then ourselves, whether we know we are or not.

And I learned there really is a "peace that surpasses all understanding"
And a trill of joy that flows and bubbles out. Life out of the body is a lot more fun then we can imagine.

3. Do you think your belief in your God is logical or illogical? Rational or irrational?
Logical and rational. I was a happy agnostic and I wasn't looking for God or magic or miracles. At most I was looking for me.
God is a tricky God, like that rabbit only smarter. Or perhaps I should blame my soul. Heck, maybe they plotted.
But I got to my relationship and belief in God by not knowing it was God until I was too far into it to disbelieve. I was deeply committed, given over to "this Energy" a good year before I caught on that it was all a synonym for God. That tricked me past the obstacles, the bias, the associations we have with the word "God". I related to "truth" differently then I would have "God".

I say it is logical because eventually it becomes illogical not to face what logic demands you must. Someone earlier in the thread noted perhaps it was a series of psychotic experiences, I agree. They were pretty good ones.

I was left with no choice but belief. I'm not one of the ones with the faith to not see, yet believe. I see and then (sometimes grouchily) believe.

It was easier to be agnostic, life made more sense. I have felt a bit of God, I have seen a bit of what God can do...So what is the deal with the world? Really?

I just deleted a long ramble on the question, I always have too much to say.

4. What lead to your belief in your God?
God did. Give him an inch and he takes infinity.
Since I have way too much to say that will be my answer. The truth is that it is the experience of the story that contains the meaning, not the story of the experience.

[struggle4progress]

34. I am a Christian, with strong atheistic tendencies. In my view,

religion often tends towards idolatry. After examining myself, I strongly suspect everyone I have ever met is an idolator, not matter what religious notions they profess to hold or to reject, because nothing is easier than worshipping the empty inventions of our own empty minds.

How could I pretend to define the one true G-d, who appears in human form, as to Abraham at the terebinths of Mamre, as three strangers wandering the desert? This is no matter for mere logic; it cannot be axiomatized. It reflects the Voice that calls us by our real names into Existence, asking us to become our genuine selves in order to breathe a compassionate Holy Spirit into this world.

I am not at all sure that really I "believe" anything. Rather, I hope to have faith and keep faith, to experience and share the love of the Christ, who died and rose again. This is not simply comforting; it is also terrifying. How should Dives feel when Lazarus is dying on his doorstep?

What led me here? I heard crying in the wilderness ...